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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 CptJake wrote:
I read the Prosecution lied about/hid number of informants and info gotten from them during discovery. There were more CIs than actual defendants. That never helps convince a jury.

I read that there were FIFTEEN CIs in that group.

o.O

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/28 19:51:35


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Gathering the Informations.

 whembly wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
I read the Prosecution lied about/hid number of informants and info gotten from them during discovery. There were more CIs than actual defendants. That never helps convince a jury.

I read that there were FIFTEEN CIs in that group.

o.O

Just to throw some shade on this nonsense...

If it's true that the majority of the charges had to do with conspiracy, it's actually possible to have more CIs than defendants. Given the number of people that the Branch Dildonians were likely communicating with, there's the possibility for people not actually present at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge to potentially have been charged with conspiracy or aiding and abetting.
   
Made in us
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Kanluwen wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
I read the Prosecution lied about/hid number of informants and info gotten from them during discovery. There were more CIs than actual defendants. That never helps convince a jury.

I read that there were FIFTEEN CIs in that group.

o.O

Just to throw some shade on this nonsense...

If it's true that the majority of the charges had to do with conspiracy, it's actually possible to have more CIs than defendants. Given the number of people that the Branch Dildonians were likely communicating with, there's the possibility for people not actually present at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge to potentially have been charged with conspiracy or aiding and abetting.

Yeah... that's a good point.

Anyone know if/when the court transcripts would be released?

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 Frazzled wrote:
Next time declare them traitors and napalm the site. We need to shut this down like a virus before it spreads.


We save that kind of response for non-white people.

Anyway...

This bad in many ways. First it emboldens the worse elements of our society, like these idiots or the guy who shot people at the black Church in the South, and makes them think they have more support than they actually do so I expect to to see more incidents. Secondly it erodes whatever belief some may have had in the Justice system and/or government (local/State/Federal) so we could see more people lashing out at symbols of those things, much like the guy who shot at cops a month or so ago. This is going to be a rough couple years at the very least.

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On a surly Warboar, leading the Waaagh!

This whole narrative changes dramatically if the charges in Nevada bring about guilty verdicts. The fat lady has yet to sing on this matter.

Yo, MODS, let's see if we can get an Orky "Fat Lady Singing" Orkmoticon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/28 21:03:44


 
   
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This.... this right here is why kids cannot even.
   
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Courageous Grand Master




-

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and I freely admit to pure speculation, but maybe the Jury got it spot on?

After looking over various newspaper reports on this, could it be that the prosecution case was so badly handled, so full of holes and horsegak, that the Jury did the right thing?

Perhaps this jury is due an apology for preserving the integrity of the US/Nevada justice system.

I did Jury service last year, and the accused was charged with 9 counts of criminal activity. The judge looked over the prosecution's paper work and said, hold on, forms not filled in properly here, and the 9 counts were reduced to 6 counts...just like that...

Prosecutors are reknown for messing things up. We know that. Murder trials have collapsed because of poor paperwork.

Ordinary people on juries can sometimes be a lot smarter and wiser and able to spot bullgak, than you think.

Like I said, pure speculation, but my gut tells me there's something odd about what happened in this courtroom.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
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There has to have been something weird that went on in there, but I'm struggling to picture how badly the prosecutor had to have screwed it up for them to just walk on to the next trial (please, please, find them guilty there...). Either the trial was basically the entire middle of "Liar, Liar", or everyone on the jury had a last name that rhymed with Mundy.

Or both.

It's just...it's insane. Shouldn't the firearms in a federal building case at the very least have gone through? It's not like they were subtle about it!
   
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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
After looking over various newspaper reports on this, could it be that the prosecution case was so badly handled, so full of holes and horsegak, that the Jury did the right thing?





There is no amount of prosecutorial bungling that explains how these guys got acquitted on charges of possessing firearms in a federal facility.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 Spinner wrote:
There has to have been something weird that went on in there, but I'm struggling to picture how badly the prosecutor had to have screwed it up for them to just walk on to the next trial (please, please, find them guilty there...). Either the trial was basically the entire middle of "Liar, Liar", or everyone on the jury had a last name that rhymed with Mundy.

Or both.

It's just...it's insane. Shouldn't the firearms in a federal building case at the very least have gone through? It's not like they were subtle about it!


I don't want to defend the Bundy family here, but wasn't the building empty?

Don't get me wrong, they should have been punished for their actions, but I can sort of understand why the jury might have overlooked the federal property thing.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
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Catskills in NYS

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
 Spinner wrote:
There has to have been something weird that went on in there, but I'm struggling to picture how badly the prosecutor had to have screwed it up for them to just walk on to the next trial (please, please, find them guilty there...). Either the trial was basically the entire middle of "Liar, Liar", or everyone on the jury had a last name that rhymed with Mundy.

Or both.

It's just...it's insane. Shouldn't the firearms in a federal building case at the very least have gone through? It's not like they were subtle about it!


I don't want to defend the Bundy family here, but wasn't the building empty?

Don't get me wrong, they should have been punished for their actions, but I can sort of understand why the jury might have overlooked the federal property thing.

So I can break into you home if you're not there?

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Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
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Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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 Ouze wrote:
There is no amount of prosecutorial bungling that explains how these guys got acquitted on charges of possessing firearms in a federal facility.
No, but something else that's been brought up numerous times already can:



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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
 Spinner wrote:
There has to have been something weird that went on in there, but I'm struggling to picture how badly the prosecutor had to have screwed it up for them to just walk on to the next trial (please, please, find them guilty there...). Either the trial was basically the entire middle of "Liar, Liar", or everyone on the jury had a last name that rhymed with Mundy.

Or both.

It's just...it's insane. Shouldn't the firearms in a federal building case at the very least have gone through? It's not like they were subtle about it!


I don't want to defend the Bundy family here, but wasn't the building empty?

Don't get me wrong, they should have been punished for their actions, but I can sort of understand why the jury might have overlooked the federal property thing.

So I can break into you home if you're not there?


Damn and blast, it's Nevada, they're probably still using VHS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
After looking over various newspaper reports on this, could it be that the prosecution case was so badly handled, so full of holes and horsegak, that the Jury did the right thing?





There is no amount of prosecutorial bungling that explains how these guys got acquitted on charges of possessing firearms in a federal facility.


Again, pure speculation here, and I'm not defending these crooks, but maybe the jury thought: the building was empty, nobody got hurt, so do we really want to waste taxpayers money on this? Let them off with a warning, and if we see them back in court, let's throw the book at them...

Only time will tell...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/28 22:22:51


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
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I'd say the taxpayer's money was wasted more on cleaning up the college-dorm mess they left behind.

I mean, there's clearly guns, they're clearly in a federal building. Seems pretty straightforward to me, but I wasn't in that court room.
   
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 whembly wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
I read the Prosecution lied about/hid number of informants and info gotten from them during discovery. There were more CIs than actual defendants. That never helps convince a jury.

I read that there were FIFTEEN CIs in that group.

o.O

What were the ratio of CIs to defendants?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
After looking over various newspaper reports on this, could it be that the prosecution case was so badly handled, so full of holes and horsegak, that the Jury did the right thing?





There is no amount of prosecutorial bungling that explains how these guys got acquitted on charges of possessing firearms in a federal facility.

Were the items seized as evidence, and proper chain of evidence followed? If not then they may not be entered into evidence a defense attorney might argue that they were replicas and not actual firearms.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/28 22:34:45


 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

The defendants admitted in court that they were carrying firearms while they occupied the building.

They just spend 3 days testifying that the government was mean so it was okay to break the law, and the jurors nullifies the charges.
   
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Beast Coast

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
People took me to task on this on the original thread, but I still maintain that the situation would have been different had these occupiers been non-white.


Just throwing this out there. I'm not claiming that the situations are analogous because they obviously aren't, but I thought you might find it interesting.

Here’s How The Nation Responded When A Black Militia Group Occupied A Government Building

   
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USA

 Hordini wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
People took me to task on this on the original thread, but I still maintain that the situation would have been different had these occupiers been non-white.


Just throwing this out there. I'm not claiming that the situations are analogous because they obviously aren't, but I thought you might find it interesting.

Here’s How The Nation Responded When A Black Militia Group Occupied A Government Building


You don't even have to go back that far.

A black guy with a gun in his hand gets shot by police without hesitation, and the police action is affirmed by onlookers as perfectly legitimate. Only criminals disobey lawful authorities, and only idiots wouldn't listen to police commands. Naturally it's all these corrupt broken urban communities faults that the problem exists, not law enforcement.

A bunch of white guys commit sedition, and not only does law enforcement act with such measured force that many onlookers wondered if they planned to do anything at all, but a 12 person jury acquits them of the charges they confess to doing because "you can't trust the government and we needed our guns to protect ourselves" (aka, lawful authority). The entire perception painted changes instantly when you change your skin, and rant about the government oppressing your poor rural community*.

The biggest difference between the scenarios is the level of government involved. Local cops can go ahead and kill people, and America struggles to consider if it is or isn't a problem. The federal government enforces federal land laws (like having to pay for using public land, or sending people to jail for starting multiple life endangering forest fires), and suddenly a bunch of white guys are the victims of a corrupt state.

*Though one really has to wonder how poor any of these people were with how many guns and bullets they happened to have.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/10/29 00:40:10


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 LordofHats wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
People took me to task on this on the original thread, but I still maintain that the situation would have been different had these occupiers been non-white.


Just throwing this out there. I'm not claiming that the situations are analogous because they obviously aren't, but I thought you might find it interesting.

Here’s How The Nation Responded When A Black Militia Group Occupied A Government Building


You don't even have to go back that far.

A black guy with a gun in his hand gets shot by police without hesitation, and the police action is affirmed by onlookers as perfectly legitimate. Only criminals disobey lawful authorities, and only idiots wouldn't listen to police commands. Naturally it's all these corrupt broken urban communities faults that the problem exists, not law enforcement.

A bunch of white guys commit sedition, and not only does law enforcement act with such measured force that many onlookers wondered if they planned to do anything at all, but a 12 person jury acquits them of the charges they confess to doing because "you can't trust the government and we needed our guns to protect ourselves" (aka, lawful authority). The entire perception painted changes instantly when you change your skin, and rant about the government oppressing your poor rural community*.

The biggest difference between the scenarios is the level of government involved. Local cops can go ahead and kill people, and America struggles to consider if it is or isn't a problem. The federal government enforces federal land laws (like having to pay for using public land, or sending people to jail for starting multiple life endangering forest fires), and suddenly a bunch of white guys are the victims of a corrupt state.

*Though one really has to wonder how poor any of these people were with how many guns and bullets they happened to have.


How does occupying an empty federal building in the woods in the dead of winter qualify as "sedition"?

The case of the Hammonds burn back fires is more nuanced than simple arson as noted by the US district judge who tries their case and refused to impose the 5 year prison sentence because he considered it disproportionate and violating his conscience.
http://landrights.org/or/Hammond/Transcript%20of%20Judges%20ruling.pdf

There is a long history of disputes and disagreements between the Bureau of Land Management and private property owners that contributed to the whole fiasco and it's still an ongoing issue.

The jury returned an unexpected verdict but that can happen with jury trials. The govt can't control the outcome of trials only the process. If the trial was conducted properly then justice was served regardless of the outcome. The process is what matters not the outcome.

When the Buddy people came into direct contact with local police and didn't follow police orders the police fired upon them and killed one of them because that is the most likely outcome when armed people initiate confrontations with cops regardless of race. The restraint showed by local cops in not storming the federal park building full of armed men who weren't threatening anyone, only damaging property and inconveniencing bird watchers is just common sense. Cops aren't going to start gunfights if they can avoid them.

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Prestor Jon wrote:
When the Buddy people came into direct contact with local police and didn't follow police orders the police fired upon them and killed one of them because that is the most likely outcome when armed people initiate confrontations with cops regardless of race. The restraint showed by local cops in not storming the federal park building full of armed men who weren't threatening anyone, only damaging property and inconveniencing bird watchers is just common sense. Cops aren't going to start gunfights if they can avoid them.


That's a good point. It's important to remember that one of the protesters, LaVoy Finicum, (who was white) was killed when he did not comply with police instructions.

   
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 Hordini wrote:

That's a good point. It's important to remember that one of the protesters, LaVoy Finicum, (who was white) was killed when he did not comply with police instructions.


He wasn't killed because he didn't comply with police instructions. He was killed because, after repeatedly brandishing a weapon and saying that he would never be taken alive in Dildonian web videos (a fact known to the officers at the scene), he reached inside his jacket while police were pointing guns at him. That is usually called "suicide by cop".

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Beast Coast

squidhills wrote:
 Hordini wrote:

That's a good point. It's important to remember that one of the protesters, LaVoy Finicum, (who was white) was killed when he did not comply with police instructions.


He wasn't killed because he didn't comply with police instructions. He was killed because, after repeatedly brandishing a weapon and saying that he would never be taken alive in Dildonian web videos (a fact known to the officers at the scene), he reached inside his jacket while police were pointing guns at him. That is usually called "suicide by cop".


I'm pretty sure he wasn't complying with police instructions when he was killed. Are you claiming that he was killed while complying with police instructions?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/29 04:45:36


   
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Denison, Iowa

Let's not forget Wounded Knee in 1973. This was 1973 (much more racism back then) and Native Americans occupied a town for months. Even after the death of a Federal Agent there wasn't some kind of massive raid. In the end no one got convicted.
   
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My secret fortress at the base of the volcano!

 Hordini wrote:

I'm pretty sure he wasn't complying with police instructions when he was killed. Are you claiming that he was killed while complying with police instructions?


No, but usually when I hear of someone being shot for "failure to comply with police instructions" it is referring to a person who may or may not have had a death wish, may or may not have intended harm to the police, may or may not have been inebriated, etc. "Suicide by cop" seems to be used in cases where it seems clear the deceased was intending to die in a police shooting, and deliberately acted in a way to facilitate that result.

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USA

 Hordini wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
When the Buddy people came into direct contact with local police and didn't follow police orders the police fired upon them and killed one of them because that is the most likely outcome when armed people initiate confrontations with cops regardless of race. The restraint showed by local cops in not storming the federal park building full of armed men who weren't threatening anyone, only damaging property and inconveniencing bird watchers is just common sense. Cops aren't going to start gunfights if they can avoid them.


That's a good point. It's important to remember that one of the protesters, LaVoy Finicum, (who was white) was killed when he did not comply with police instructions.


There's a worlds difference between being killed by law enforcement weeks after something began, and being killed practically as a matter of course.

How does occupying an empty federal building in the woods in the dead of winter qualify as "sedition"?


They weren't occupying a building. They were plotting to co-opt public land with the explicitly stated intent of starting a nation wide rebellion (this is their stated plan, and one they stated over and over again as the occupation of the Refuge went on). It's the exact definition of sedition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/29 07:53:53


   
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 Spinner wrote:
I'd say the taxpayer's money was wasted more on cleaning up the college-dorm mess they left behind.

I mean, there's clearly guns, they're clearly in a federal building. Seems pretty straightforward to me, but I wasn't in that court room.


I think the point is that nobody was in that court room except the Bundy family


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Let's not forget Wounded Knee in 1973. This was 1973 (much more racism back then) and Native Americans occupied a town for months. Even after the death of a Federal Agent there wasn't some kind of massive raid. In the end no one got convicted.


When Native American tribes are involved, it's a whole different ball game, what with treaty rights, treaties etc etc

It's complicated


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
When the Buddy people came into direct contact with local police and didn't follow police orders the police fired upon them and killed one of them because that is the most likely outcome when armed people initiate confrontations with cops regardless of race. The restraint showed by local cops in not storming the federal park building full of armed men who weren't threatening anyone, only damaging property and inconveniencing bird watchers is just common sense. Cops aren't going to start gunfights if they can avoid them.


That's a good point. It's important to remember that one of the protesters, LaVoy Finicum, (who was white) was killed when he did not comply with police instructions.


There's a worlds difference between being killed by law enforcement weeks after something began, and being killed practically as a matter of course.

How does occupying an empty federal building in the woods in the dead of winter qualify as "sedition"?


They weren't occupying a building. They were plotting to co-opt public land with the explicitly stated intent of starting a nation wide rebellion (this is their stated plan, and one they stated over and over again as the occupation of the Refuge went on). It's the exact definition of sedition.


If you're right and it was sedition and/or rebellion and taking over public land, then why weren't they charged with Treason?

I'm looking at my copy of the US constitution: Article III section 3:

I quote " Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them,..."

They hoped for a nation wide rebellion.If that's not war against the United States, then what is? Open and shut case in my book

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/29 11:03:19


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
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USA

Because treason in US law has a specific definition (US Constitution). Bundy and his cohorts don't meet it. Dislike them, but its a big stretch to go to a jury and argue they were waging war against the state by occupying a Wildlife Refuge. They certainly didn't betray the US to an enemy, or provide aid to one.

Under US law, they did not commit treason.

   
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 LordofHats wrote:
Because treason in US law has a specific definition (US Constitution). Bundy and his cohorts don't meet it. Dislike them, but its a big stretch to go to a jury and argue they were waging war against the state by occupying a Wildlife Refuge. They certainly didn't betray the US to an enemy, or provide aid to one.

Under US law, they did not commit treason.


Damn it! They are going to get charged and punished with something, aren't they?

On a serious note, if the Bundys walk away from the next set of charges, then the American justice system will be a laughing stock the world over.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
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staffordshire england

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A disgraceful decision. Travesty!

Armed men seize a Federal building and threaten to overthrow the Federal government and NOTHING happens!

God almighty, what has happened to the US justice system?

Compare and contrast that to individuals who are seized, thrown into G'Bay for years, not charged with any crime, and then let go years later....


It makes sense really, in a stupid sort of way. The 2nd amendment right to bear arms, is there too resist oppression.
So how do you prosecute someone for doing what they're supposed to do.



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 loki old fart wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A disgraceful decision. Travesty!

Armed men seize a Federal building and threaten to overthrow the Federal government and NOTHING happens!

God almighty, what has happened to the US justice system?

Compare and contrast that to individuals who are seized, thrown into G'Bay for years, not charged with any crime, and then let go years later....


It makes sense really, in a stupid sort of way. The 2nd amendment right to bear arms, is there too resist oppression.
So how do you prosecute someone for doing what they're supposed to do.


Sadly, a jury in Nevada agrees with you, but this saga has still got some miles in it.

I will bet my entire Forge World collection that we haven't heard the last of this case or the Bundy family.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
 
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