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Anyone else notice this? I know grey knights are supposed to be "elite" but as far as I can tell that's not an excuse for being overpriced all over the place. The fact that custodians are strictly better and less expensive than grey knight paladins just makes me a little mad. I really wish grey knights would get an update and stop being codex dreadknight.

Because points really don't have any meaning when comparing two different armies. Hell, they barely have any meaning when comparing units within some armies.

If their points costs were too high nobody would want them. Thus, no one would buy them.

AKA 'cause reasons and GW.

Just imagine how the dark eldar incubi feel

I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw the rules for them, I guess the one advantage that paladins have that I can think of off the top of my head is their 5+ invun base, but that doesn't really make up for the toughness 5 and eternal warrior and the other bonuses the custodians get.

Two possible reasons -

1) The Grey knights are still pretty old, iirc (did they have an update since 5th? Haven't been keeping track), and when they were released paladins were the strongest infantry around

2) GW can't into points and balance

Welcome to 40k! Where the rules are made up and the points dont matter!

Im your host matt ward!

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Welcome to 40k! Where the rules are made up and the points dont matter!

Im your host matt ward!

Ward is miles ahead the current writers. He delivered a lethal blow to WHFB but many of his codices were balanced internally and enough balanced each against the other.

Current writers are aimless, the same guy can deliver a terrible codex or an OP one in base of inexperience or just lack of time or interest (wether the army is a "pet army" or not, see Phil Kelly).

Cruddace, Kelly and Vetock are worse than Ward. Yes I said it. Way worse.

Ward wrote the Dreadknight, but did not give to it 3++ and FnP like Jeremy Vetock did with the Riptide.
Ward did not put the option 1 heavy weapon per model on a jetbike troop like Phil Kelly did.
Ward is not Cruddace that crippled forever the Tyranids.
Afaik, Ward did not introduce the failed dice casting system from WHFB in 40k psionics like the aforementioned hack frauds did. Nor he had a role in CSM or Ork codex writing.

He is a fluff murderer and one can note the change in tone of the Lotr rules when he stepped in (orc shamans - the horror) but I arrived to the point to miss him.
Ward would have not written the Tempestus orders with 2 out of 6 orders almost never used, or with the Gets hot on hotshot volley gun (edited out 1 day later).

Matt come back. We need you. We need the Dark Side now, is the only think that can save us.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Welcome to 40k! Where the rules are made up and the points dont matter!

Im your host matt ward!

Put him near the rules (edit: in 40k) not the background, and you have some semblance of internal balance.

Hmm. Don't Grey Knight Paladins have a few extra special rules the Custodian's don't have? Like, Brotherhood of Psykers, The Aegis, Psykout Grenades, ummm... all Force Weapons, a bunch of other rules the Custodians don't have? The only thing the Custodians get over the GK Paladins is Eternal Warrior and Toughness 5. So... how many S10 weapons are in the game that Custodians would have to worry about that they would need Eternal Warrior?

This is an apples to oranges argument. Both squads are different and both squads serve a different role on the battlefield.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Hmm. Don't Grey Knight Paladins have a few extra special rules the Custodian's don't have? Like, Brotherhood of Psykers, The Aegis, Psykout Grenades, ummm... all Force Weapons, a bunch of other rules the Custodians don't have? The only thing the Custodians get over the GK Paladins is Eternal Warrior and Toughness 5. So... how many S10 weapons are in the game that Custodians would have to worry about that they would need Eternal Warrior?

This is an apples to oranges argument. Both squads are different and both squads serve a different role on the battlefield.

Well the Custodes would worry about Force Weapon Instant death if they didn't have EW.

Custodes having S6 at initiative is nice, along with being able to block assault attacks, having a 5++ with the formation is nice enough as well.

Yeah Paladins were already overcosted. Custodes pretty much laugh at them though.

Paladins have better shooting options, and can deploy in a Land Raider/Storm Raven. They're also able to take hammers, while the Custodes ding away at anything over AV12 helplessly.

For the Custodes to get 5++ costs the best part of 800 points.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Because points really don't have any meaning.

Fixed that

Points in 7E aren't really relevant at all anymore. GW isn't attempting to balance anything or make a functional tactical wargame, points largely are just a mechanism on game size, nothing more at this point.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Just imagine how the dark eldar incubi feel

Or CSM Mutilators....

O wait at least Incubi have had 2 sets of attractive models. Mutilators are butt ugly and have terribad rules.

Is your unit new or newish? Does you unit have new models that need to be sold? If you answered no to either of the two options, then GW doesn't care what the units points or battlefield performance is. Those old units are not worth their time and effort to balance and fix as there is no profitable reason to do so.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
...Afaik, Ward did not introduce the failed dice casting system from WHFB in 40k psionics like the aforementioned hack frauds did...

He did introduce Wizards in Core (which started WHFB on a death spiral that ended in the system getting nuked) to WHFB. His rules are the same mix of poorly-thought-out interesting ideas the rest of GW's writers produce, usually, we hate him more for what he's done to the lore than anything else.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Matt come back. We need you. We need the Dark Side now, is the only think that can save us.

Nah we have Simon Grant leading the last few major rules projects (Burning of Prospero & the Genestealer Cult release), and he seems to be doing a good enough job of it.
Hopefully he continues to be decent with his rules writing.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Hmm. Don't Grey Knight Paladins have a few extra special rules the Custodian's don't have? Like, Brotherhood of Psykers, The Aegis, Psykout Grenades, ummm... all Force Weapons, a bunch of other rules the Custodians don't have? The only thing the Custodians get over the GK Paladins is Eternal Warrior and Toughness 5. So... how many S10 weapons are in the game that Custodians would have to worry about that they would need Eternal Warrior?

This is an apples to oranges argument. Both squads are different and both squads serve a different role on the battlefield.

Paladins do have Brotherhood of Psykers, The Aegis, Psyk-Out, Force Weapons, a built-in 5++, marginally better small arms, and the ability to buy heavy weapons, thunderhammers, and an Apothecary.

Custodiers have +1 BS/S/T/A/Ld over Paladins, a squad leader with +1WS/I/A on top of that, Eternal Warrior, AP2 at Initiative, Fearless, and the ability to buy Storm Shields.

It isn't that much of an apples-to-oranges argument; they're both melee-focused elite heavy infantry units. Custodiers take a lot more work to kill except in a few very specific cases (S7/AP2 weapons go either way depending on whether the Custodiers have Storm Shields, S2 weapons don't care which one they're shooting at), they do more damage except in a few very specific cases (basically if you aren't trying to kill 3+-armoured MCs with I4 or lower take the Custodiers). The only upside to Paladins is that you can legally use them in a bound army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Matt come back. We need you. We need the Dark Side now, is the only think that can save us.

Nah we have Simon Grant leading the last few major rules projects (Burning of Prospero & the Genestealer Cult release), and he seems to be doing a good enough job of it.
Hopefully he continues to be decent with his rules writing.

He forgot to write "Terminator armour" on the Custodes' equipment list...

Because the Custodes are a new and shiny unit that ha only just been released where as the Grey Knights are several years old and thus behind in the power creep.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Paladins have better shooting options, and can deploy in a Land Raider/Storm Raven. They're also able to take hammers, while the Custodes ding away at anything over AV12 helplessly.

For the Custodes to get 5++ costs the best part of 800 points.

What he said.

Paladins are Psykers, have better heavy weapons, and transport options. They are paying points for all that.

An army of Custodes are powerless against a single Chaos Space Marine Landraider.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Nah we have Simon Grant leading the last few major rules projects (Burning of Prospero & the Genestealer Cult release), and he seems to be doing a good enough job of it.
Hopefully he continues to be decent with his rules writing.

He forgot to write "Terminator armour" on the Custodes' equipment list...

Presumably they don't have it then. Even if they do that's hardly a new thing to do.

pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Nah we have Simon Grant leading the last few major rules projects (Burning of Prospero & the Genestealer Cult release), and he seems to be doing a good enough job of it.
Hopefully he continues to be decent with his rules writing.

He forgot to write "Terminator armour" on the Custodes' equipment list...

Presumably they don't have it then. Even if they do that's hardly a new thing to do.

In 30k they have a specific named suit of armour that confers Relentless, a 5++, and Move Through Cover. Here they have a 2+ save on profile and no armour in their equipment list, which (along with the omission of Relentless and an invul) looks like a typo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Paladins have better shooting options, and can deploy in a Land Raider/Storm Raven. They're also able to take hammers, while the Custodes ding away at anything over AV12 helplessly.

For the Custodes to get 5++ costs the best part of 800 points.

What he said.

Paladins are Psykers, have better heavy weapons, and transport options. They are paying points for all that.

An army of Custodes are powerless against a single Chaos Space Marine Landraider.

GK "paying for being psykers" is a gross misconception when you take into account the general uselessness of their powers. HQ psykers pay 25-35pts/ML for the chance to roll Invisibility, most GK units pay significant costs for the ability to gain ID in melee (...on one-Attack models with no way to get extra close combat weapons, in a game where probably 70-80% of the time it's completely irrelevant), attack at S6 (which Custodes do without needing to make a psychic test), or reduce a Daemon unit's Invulnerable save by one (which lets you utterly destroy one of the twenty-odd Codexes in the game and is a waste of ink otherwise). A Mastery level is worth maybe ten points to a GK unit. If that.

And the right to pay full price for a DT Land Raider or upgrade guns on a unit that's forced to buy masses of melee kit already isn't that much of an upgrade.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Nah we have Simon Grant leading the last few major rules projects (Burning of Prospero & the Genestealer Cult release), and he seems to be doing a good enough job of it.
Hopefully he continues to be decent with his rules writing.

He forgot to write "Terminator armour" on the Custodes' equipment list...

Presumably they don't have it then. Even if they do that's hardly a new thing to do.

In 30k they have a specific named suit of armour that confers Relentless, a 5++, and Move Through Cover. Here they have a 2+ save on profile and no armour in their equipment list, which (along with the omission of Relentless and an invul) looks like a typo.

It seems more likely that they don't have it than they missed two special rules.

Considering how different the 30k and 40k rules are, I don't think it's fair to say they 'forgot' to give the 40k version Terminator armour, especially since the armour they have in 30k isn't Terminator armour anyway (it just shares the invulnerbale save and armour save granted by it).

 Jaxler wrote:
Why do grey knight paladins cost more than custodians?

Because Matt Ward wrote the Grey Knights Codex and he has no idea what a unit should cost.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Ward is miles ahead the current writers.

There speaks a man who never played 3rd Edition Daemonhunters or Witch Hunters, two perfectly serviceable armies filled with units that were at once unique, characterful and useful on the tabletop - both of them utterly ruined by the Spiritual Liege. The 5th Edition rewrites were uniformly god-awful, and while there might be some hope for the Sisters on the horizon I think the Grey Knights and Inquisition have been so thoroughly molested that they're utterly beyond salvation.

Current writers are aimless, the same guy can deliver a terrible codex or an OP one in base of inexperience or just lack of time or interest (wether the army is a "pet army" or not, see Phil Kelly).

Ward delivers nothing *but* terrible Codexes, and he does so for both of the reasons you've stated there. The Space Marines Codexes he wrote were garbage (they were utterly irrelevant to competitive play by the end of 5th Edition, having been thoroughly superceded by the Space Wolves and Dark Eldar - both Phil Kelly Codexes) and only managed to maintain some semblance of competitiveness because he undercosted all the units. Kelly's Codexes are monobuild, but in that monobuild you can see the workings of a mind who understands the game system he's writing for. Ward doesn't. The rules he writes read like the kind of horrid wishlisting garbage you'd find posted on forums by wide-eyed fanboys sick of getting whupped - for Space Marines at any rate, for everyone else he just seems to write the first thing that comes into his head then mail it off to the publisher. If it's not Robot Girlyman, he just doesn't seem to care.

Ward wrote the Dreadknight, but did not give to it 3++ and FnP like Jeremy Vetock did with the Riptide.
Ward did not put the option 1 heavy weapon per model on a jetbike troop like Phil Kelly did.

Which of those two models do you see at tournaments? Hint: It's not the "Yo Dawg" Termi-terminator-nator with the Blade of Overcompensation. Eldar scatbikes are demonstrably fine, provided your army is at least semi-functional, rather than a list of undercosted units with some wtfkewl adolescent special rules dreamt up by an adolescent war-nerd.

Matt come back. We need you. We need the Dark Side now, is the only think that can save us.

If he starts writing Codexes again I'll stop buying GW products until they fire him again. I know they don't tell you who the authors are now, but I'll know right away if he's done a book because the units will all be undercosted and their rules will be lacklustre attempts at overpowering the army.

Kelly's Codexes are monobuild, but in that monobuild you can see the workings of a mind who understands the game system he's writing for. Ward doesn't.

Oh yes, because we certainly love Kelly's CSM, which exacerbated his love of RANDOM RANDOM RANDOM... When it comes to anything not related to his precious Eldar, who has literally adapted his rules to make them some of the strongest codex's in each edition he's written them for!

Because Matt Ward wrote the Grey Knights Codex and he has no idea what a unit should cost.

Because Matt Ward could create a codex in August 2014 when he left the company in May

There speaks a man who never played 3rd Edition Daemonhunters or Witch Hunters, two perfectly serviceable armies filled with units that were at once unique, characterful and useful on the tabletop - both of them utterly ruined by the Spiritual Liege.

Considering that Sisters of Battle were having trouble due to being outdated, the major issue was that they received a White Dwarf codex (that always tends to be poor), written primarily by Robin Cruddace.

The Space Marines Codexes he wrote were garbage (they were utterly irrelevant to competitive play by the end of 5th Edition, having been thoroughly superceded by the Space Wolves and Dark Eldar - both Phil Kelly Codexes)

.. Is that supposed to be against him? That just shows that Kelly manages to write more OP codex's by the end of things.

Eldar scatbikes are demonstrably fine, provided your army is at least semi-functional, rather than a list of undercosted units with some wtfkewl adolescent special rules dreamt up by an adolescent war-nerd.

... Yeah you are so deep in the hatedom aren't you? I guess maybe you could explain the Wraithknight or other such 'fine' rules from Kelly?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Paladins do have Brotherhood of Psykers, The Aegis, Psyk-Out, Force Weapons, a built-in 5++, marginally better small arms, and the ability to buy heavy weapons, thunderhammers, and an Apothecary.

Custodiers have +1 BS/S/T/A/Ld over Paladins, a squad leader with +1WS/I/A on top of that, Eternal Warrior, AP2 at Initiative, Fearless, and the ability to buy Storm Shields.

It isn't that much of an apples-to-oranges argument; they're both melee-focused elite heavy infantry units. Custodiers take a lot more work to kill except in a few very specific cases (S7/AP2 weapons go either way depending on whether the Custodiers have Storm Shields, S2 weapons don't care which one they're shooting at), they do more damage except in a few very specific cases (basically if you aren't trying to kill 3+-armoured MCs with I4 or lower take the Custodiers). The only upside to Paladins is that you can legally use them in a bound army.

The terminators also get assault grenades don't forget which is a significant boon.

The biggest thing the Gk get though is the ability to start embarked in a transport. Like all foot slogging heavy assault units, if you cant engage quickly its a huge point sink for very little return.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh yes, because we certainly love Kelly's CSM, which exacerbated his love of RANDOM RANDOM RANDOM... When it comes to anything not related to his precious Eldar, who has literally adapted his rules to make them some of the strongest codex's in each edition he's written them for!

I'm not defending Phil Kelly. I'm saying he's more capable of putting out a decent Codex than Matt Ward because he actually has some understanding of the game system. Case in point: I don't know what the competitive scene was like in 6th Ed, but in 5th the Space Wolves ruled the roost while the DEldar were usually contenders. Necrons and Grey Knights, which were supposed to be the new hotness, had a bit of an impact until people sussed them out, at which point their relevance fell off a cliff, while the Spess Mehrens often managed to place well by dint of the fact six out of ten entrants were playing them.

The pattern repeats in 7th Edition. Kelly's Eldar have firepower and mobility that doesn't rely on vehicles, which is perfect for an Edition where vehicles are a liability and Tactical Objectives mean mobility is key. Ward's Spess Mehrens have Grav-spam Drop Pods and Bikes, which allows them to annoy other MEQ armies and thus win games, but has limited impact on armies that can Jink the Grav-spam, redeploy away from the footsloggers, and/or kill them inside a turn with shooting. That's what happens when you rely on stupid war-nerd wishlisting to write your rules instead of building armies that can play the game properly. EDIT: Cruddace wrote the 7th Edition book, but the black heart and twisted soul is retained from Ward's 5th Edition iteration. His fail echoes through the generations - see below.

Because Matt Ward could create a codex in August 2014 when he left the company in May

The new GK Codex is more or less a direct translation of the 5th Edition cack-fest, with all points costs and special rules (that's "Ralph Wiggum" special, not "unique and noteworthy") largely intact. Same with Codex: Adepta Sororitas. His failure echoes through eternity. He also wrote the Space Marine Codex we're currently using, and you can tell he did because a Tactical Marine costs 2pts more than a Sister of Battle.

Considering that Sisters of Battle were having trouble due to being outdated, the major issue was that they received a White Dwarf codex (that always tends to be poor), written primarily by Robin Cruddace.

Sisters never had trouble in 5th Edition. They were mechanised MEQ infantry with 2 Meltaguns per squad at BS4; they were **made** for 5th Edition. I used to love bringing my ladies to the FLGS and rolling Smurfs who thought my army sucked because it hadn't been updated for 2 Editions; they'd scoff and snicker until I blew up their Derp Pod Squads with twin-linked Heavy Flamers and Rended their Terminators to death with Bolters.

Then the update came. I knew it was going to suck when I found out Ward and Curddace were collaborating on it. I had no idea how bad it could actually be until they renovated the Acts of Faith to make them bad and overcosted all my units. Luckily I had a 13th Company army left over from 3rd as well so I could play that and not get curb-stomped in every game, but I was not amused.

tl;dr - Ward ruined my armies in the same way Kelly ruined the CSM. The difference is Kelly **can** write Codexes capable of building competitive armies when he puts his mind to it, whereas Ward's best effort consists of trash fanbooks with derptastic special rules and undercosted units that give the appearance of competitiveness.

Is that supposed to be against him? That just shows that Kelly manages to write more OP codex's by the end of things.

A Bloodthirster which costs 50pts is "OP". An army which is capable of playing the game according to its rules is not. Learn the difference.

Yeah you are so deep in the hatedom aren't you? I guess maybe you could explain the Wraithknight or other such 'fine' rules from Kelly?

I'm not "deep in the hatedom"; I'm just capable of recognising when someone is trying to do a job they're incapable of doing, and failing hard as a result.

Also what do you mean "explain the Wraithknight"? What exactly is it you want me to explain about it? Do you think it's OP because one killed your Smurfette Chapter Master despite the fact you gave him 350pts of melee wargear?

The Wraithknight is HORRIDLY undercosted. It can easily take on a Knight or two, for less than the cost of a single Gallant.