What is an op unit in your codex that nobody knows is op?

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**AnomanderRake**

General Kroll wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:Craftworlds: War Walkers. They've gotten lost in the hullabaloo over Scatterbikes but they're almost the same price (60pts for two heavy weapons as opposed to 27pts each), tougher (2-HP AV10 with a 5++), MSM-capable (Battle Focus), and can get more gun options if necessary. They may not be fast Troops units, but they couldn't give the entire Codex fantastic offensive price-performance, unparalleled deployment flexibility, and the power to make mockery of any scenario.

SM: Salamander Land Speeders. Fluff-heresy par excellance, but in the Flameblade Strike Force 50pts nets you two Deep Striking S6 Heavy Flamers.

Grey Knights: Nope. Everything performs exactly like you'd expect (Dreadknights do well, everything else underperforms unless it's in a very, very specific game situation or used as allied shenanigans).

Inquisition: The humble Henchmen warband has the power to do a lot of silly things. People get into fights with them without realizing what Death-Cult Assassins do, they can make the cheapest summon-spam list imagineable (18pt unit of three models with a Mastery level), and the old Chimera rules let them load up with heavy weapons and make terrifying impromptu battle tanks.

You got me all excited with the summoning Henchmen thing. But the Inquisitor codex clearly states they can only cast Sanctic powers :(

The copy I'm looking at doesn't, Daemonology wasn't a discipline when it was printed. As far as the information I've got in front of me goes psykers in Henchmen warbands have a fixed known power and can't choose to roll for powers, but Inquisitors have the option of using either Sanctic or Malefic powers as per the Daemonology sidebar at the end of the psychic phase chapter. Either way your 18pt Henchmen warband with a Mastery level is mostly there to feed dice to the actual summoning units.

**MechaEmperor7000**

These weren't OP at any point in the game but generally really underrated stuff that I later found out to be unexpectedly useful, moreso than they seemed at first:

3.) Chaos Vindicators. Specifically the Chaos ones and this was before the Loyalists got upgraded with their apocalypse blast ability. It's mediocre armor and low range plus rather expensive price tag made it seem like a waste of points, especially since it's a HS choice, one of the notoriously crammed spaces in the CSM army. However with the Daemonic Possession upgrade it just flat out tanks enemy autocannons like a boss. Even if it dies to real anti-tank, it often does at least make back it's points my deleting anything within tickling range (it's essentially there for you to manually lower the points limit, so to speak).

2.) Biovores. Surprisingly these buggers never took center stage in any cycle of the tyranid lifetime despite being incredibly useful little buggers. Their spore mines can reliably deal with non-meq infantry and can also provide good area denial. It doesn't sound like much until you look at the Biovore's cost, and then you realize you can spam those little sperm pods far and wide as you'd like for dirt cheap. The main reason they never rose to prominence is the same as the above, namely they occupied a slot that always historically had much more obviously useful models (fexes, trygons at one point, and various other zillas).

1.) Chaos Spawns. These guys were the butt of all jokes for a full edition, but this one they've become arguably one of the most useful support units in the army. They create a good amount of ablative wounds on the cheap, and ridiculously durable wounds at that if you can give them the Mark of Nurgle, plus their beast status means they solve the one issue with most meatshield units; speed. They can keep up with any HQ you wish to escort with them. And on a good roll with the mutations and their attacks, you can even get a brief moment when the spawn will re-enact that scene from the first avenger movie where Hulk pummels loki into the ground, except with the spawn and your enemy's hero in their respective places.

**CrownAxe**

AnomanderRake wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:Craftworlds: War Walkers. They've gotten lost in the hullabaloo over Scatterbikes but they're almost the same price (60pts for two heavy weapons as opposed to 27pts each), tougher (2-HP AV10 with a 5++), MSM-capable (Battle Focus), and can get more gun options if necessary. They may not be fast Troops units, but they couldn't give the entire Codex fantastic offensive price-performance, unparalleled deployment flexibility, and the power to make mockery of any scenario.

SM: Salamander Land Speeders. Fluff-heresy par excellance, but in the Flameblade Strike Force 50pts nets you two Deep Striking S6 Heavy Flamers.

Grey Knights: Nope. Everything performs exactly like you'd expect (Dreadknights do well, everything else underperforms unless it's in a very, very specific game situation or used as allied shenanigans).

Inquisition: The humble Henchmen warband has the power to do a lot of silly things. People get into fights with them without realizing what Death-Cult Assassins do, they can make the cheapest summon-spam list imagineable (18pt unit of three models with a Mastery level), and the old Chimera rules let them load up with heavy weapons and make terrifying impromptu battle tanks.

You got me all excited with the summoning Henchmen thing. But the Inquisitor codex clearly states they can only cast Sanctic powers :(

The copy I'm looking at doesn't, Daemonology wasn't a discipline when it was printed. As far as the information I've got in front of me goes psykers in Henchmen warbands have a fixed known power and can't choose to roll for powers, but Inquisitors have the option of using either Sanctic or Malefic powers as per the Daemonology sidebar at the end of the psychic phase chapter. Either way your 18pt Henchmen warband with a Mastery level is mostly there to feed dice to the actual summoning units.

You need to update/redownload you're digital codex then because they updated it to list that they only get sanctic

**BBAP**

CrownAxe wrote:
You need to update/redownload you're digital codex then because they updated it to list that they only get sanctic

None of the Codexes I've seen - including the Chaos Daemons one - explicitly state that their psykers can use Malefic powers. I actually thought Daemons couldn't do it when I first read the book because it's not listed there, but then you go to the BRB and it tells you any psykers aside from Grey Knights can attempt to manifest Malefic powers.

If you want to use the "Codex trumps rulebook" argument then no psykers can use Malefic powers, including Daemons.

**Jancoran**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Sisters Repentia.

At first glance, they seem incredibly pathetic. They get killed off so easily they're hardly a threat. Eventually you start to think of them as insignificant enough you devote your army's firepower elsewhere.

Then they actually manage to reach combat with a decent-sized squad, and the unit they reached ceases to exist because it was just attacked by a dedicated melee unit wielding the equivalent of chainfists who still get to attack even if they die before their turn.

They're once per game Act of Faith merely gives them Feel No Pain 3+.

The Sisters Repentia are definitely better if you know how to use them than most players know.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

**wuestenfux**

Maybe an army full of Wyches on foot. Alternatively, only Incubi.

**TheLumberJack**

Spore mine army

**BBAP**

Jancoran wrote:
The Sisters Repentia are definitely better if you know how to use them than most players know.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

That unit costs 358 points. T3, footslogging, rerolling saves in CC only, no FNP, no nothing. 358 points. It's difficult to kill in close combat and will likely smush anything it touches, but for 358pts it damn well better.

I mean, I guess it's the best Repentia noob-hammer you could build entirely from the Sisters Codex, but why would you want such a unit?

**CrownAxe**

BBAP wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
You need to update/redownload you're digital codex then because they updated it to list that they only get sanctic

None of the Codexes I've seen - including the Chaos Daemons one - explicitly state that their psykers can use Malefic powers. I actually thought Daemons couldn't do it when I first read the book because it's not listed there, but then you go to the BRB and it tells you any psykers aside from Grey Knights can attempt to manifest Malefic powers.

If you want to use the "Codex trumps rulebook" argument then no psykers can use Malefic powers, including Daemons.

All the physical codexs got errated

**BBAP**

I've got the latest batch of FAQs in front of me. I'm not seeing the errata at all.

**CrownAxe**

BBAP wrote:
I've got the latest batch of FAQs in front of me. I'm not seeing the errata at all.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Rules-Errata?_requestid=3940574

**BBAP**

That's what I'm looking at. Nothing in any of those to suggest the permission for non-Tyranid, non-GK psykers to use Malefic powers has changed from the BRB. That's what you need to show me.

**CrownAxe**

BBAP wrote:
That's what I'm looking at. Nothing in any of those to suggest the permission for non-Tyranid, non-GK psykers to use Malefic powers has changed from the BRB. That's what you need to show me.

Except they do, The Daemon, CSM, and AM ones do state that they have access to daemonology powers

**BBAP**

CrownAxe wrote:
BBAP wrote:
That's what I'm looking at. Nothing in any of those to suggest the permission for non-Tyranid, non-GK psykers to use Malefic powers has changed from the BRB. That's what you need to show me.

Except they do, The Daemon, CSM, and AM ones do state that they have access to daemonology powers

Right - but none of the FAQs state that the rest of the Codexes **don't** have access to those powers. The BRB states that they do, hence an FAQ needs to specifically deny this permission in order for it to end. Just making it more explicit that some armies have access to Malefic powers isn't enough on it's own, because that doesn't abrogate the permissions in the BRB.

Here's an analogy. I throw a party and send out invitations. One of the people I send them to is a bit dim, and isn't sure if he can come to the party I've invited him to because it doesn't explicitly state that he can attend the party. I give him a bit of paper that makes this permission explicit. Everyone turns up to the party and nobody is denied admittance, because everyone has an invitation, including the village idiot - his is just a bit more explicit than everyone else's. Meanwhile, Mr Tyranid and Mr Draigo don't get invitations, so they can't come to the party at all.

**Jancoran**

BBAP wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
The Sisters Repentia are definitely better if you know how to use them than most players know.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

That unit costs 358 points. T3, footslogging, rerolling saves in CC only, no FNP, no nothing. 358 points. It's difficult to kill in close combat and will likely smush anything it touches, but for 358pts it damn well better.

I mean, I guess it's the best Repentia noob-hammer you could build entirely from the Sisters Codex, but why would you want such a unit?

It helped me go 5-0 at my last large event, for one, and for two its incredibly effective. They dont have to footslog actually, they can take Rhinos. It has FnP, sop I can see you maybe didnt read the article.

and 358 (your number) seems inflated so I assume you are including the completely detachable characetrs that would have been advisable anyways)) is next to nothing in comparison to most death stars and in fact a kit'd out Purifier squad is 300+, as is a Wraith Knight so in the grand scheme, I'm not so sure 358 (your number) is much to pay for the production.

But thats the discussion we're having right? Your reaction is proof of my point. It is a unit that is QUITE powerful that most people don't beleive in or take much at all.

So in a way, I am happy you said this. =)

**Xenomancers**

Jancoran wrote:
BBAP wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
The Sisters Repentia are definitely better if you know how to use them than most players know.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

That unit costs 358 points. T3, footslogging, rerolling saves in CC only, no FNP, no nothing. 358 points. It's difficult to kill in close combat and will likely smush anything it touches, but for 358pts it damn well better.

I mean, I guess it's the best Repentia noob-hammer you could build entirely from the Sisters Codex, but why would you want such a unit?

It helped me go 5-0 at my last large event, for one, and for two its incredibly effective. They dont have to footslog actually, they can take Rhinos. It has FnP, sop I can see you maybe didnt read the article.

and 358 (your number seems inflated so I assume you are including the completely detachable characetrs that would have been advisable anyways)) is next to nothing in comparison to most death stars and in fact a kit'd out Purifier squad is 300+, as is a Wraith Knight so in the grand scheme, I'm not so sure 358 (your number) is much to pay for the production.

But thats the discussion we're having right? Your reaction is proof of my point. It is a unit that is QUITE powerful that most people don't beleive in or take much at all.

So in a way, I am happy you said this. =)

you went undefeated putting an exensive as balls assault unit in a rhino? That just dont make sense. Turn 3 assault at best - and the rhino gonna be destroyed on t1. Me fails to see this as viable.

**Jancoran**

Xenomancers wrote:

you went undefeated putting an exensive as balls assault unit in a rhino? That just dont make sense. Turn 3 assault at best - and the rhino gonna be destroyed on t1. Me fails to see this as viable.

Exactly the point. Thank you!

Most people have played so few games against Sisters of Battle and even less of those very few have played against one wielding this unit. It is the wolf in sheep's clothing this thread is all about!

First, I would steer away from arguing with good results. Of all the things that strip away an argument, none does it more quickly than actually demonstrating that it works in tournaments. My observation about Sisters Repentia is based on results, not theory. I've done it, not just talked about it. I've put my money where my mouth is. I think its a great candidate here for this thread question.

Second, the HQ isnt "part of the unit". You would already have one. That mine made the unit function in an excellent way isn't unique. Most death stars are like that. Some would even argue that Centurions are only good when they are accompanied..but no one is calling them "terrible" are they? Kind of like arguing that White Scars Battle Companies arent good because they are "just" a bunch of Tactical Marines.

The article does a good job of describing how to use the unit. It explains why and how it works well this way. It is frighteningly effective and affordable at the same time. In the context of Sisters of battle, which I have won more tournaments with than any other codex (though Im closing in with Tau Empire now), your one friend is the inexpensive nature of their units. Sure, a lot of terrible stat lines come with it. While commensurately less impressive in general than their opponents, their effect in total is good. The inclusion of a mini-deathstar unit this affordable underscores the synergy it can have because like everything in our codex, it has its faults but its not expensive. The Sisters Repentia take down Imperial Knights, Wraith Knights, Bully boyz and Assault Terminators as well as anything could ever wish to. Tau Empire players slap down 440 points gladly in a single unit just to be able to handle the dreaded Super Heavies and Gargants of 40K. I know i do. This unit doesn't even approach that cost point.

The Rhino you bring up is an option for them, not a straight jacket. But when you have as many dangerous bees buzzing around your head ,its hard to decide which one you are going to allow to kill you. The end result is the same, however. Most people fire at the Dominion. or the Exorcist. They figure they have a little time before they have to deal with the crazy pants Repentias. That's what they tell themselves anyways. Failing to kill the Dominion is a death sentence. failing to kill the Repentias is a death sentence... so... what to do what to do?

This isn't a magic bullet that will win you every game. Keep in mind that the subject was units you underestimate that are in fact quite powerful. This qualifies, I believe, so I submit it as my suggestion.

**BBAP**

My reaction is proof that people have no faith in your Repentia "deathstar". A cursory examination of the unit justifies the lack of faith.

For a start, I'm not sure where you got the idea that my points total for the unit is "inflated". The figure I got for the unit is the same one anyone would reach by adding together the costs of the units and upgrades your article specifies:

- Canoness, Mantle, Rosarius - 105pts
- Uriah Jacobus
- Priest, Litanies - 40pts
- Repentia Squad, 2 extra Repentia - 113pts

That's 358pts. Once you've paid that 358pts, you either footslog the unit or add the cost of a transport to that figure. Pick your poison I guess. It seems reasonable to me that the ICs are included in the point cost calculation - they make the unit what it is. Without the characters it's just Repentia in a box, the quintessential noobhammer.

Then again, even with the ICs it's still just Repentia in a box, except now it has a tank character to take wounds. A tank character that only works in close combat, relying on survivability buffs that only affect close combat. An abject inability to affect the game in any way outside of close combat. A lack of mobility which all but ensures it'll only reach close combat if your opponent allows it to. A T3 statline and 5++ saves against anything and everything that isn't close combat, which means even if someone **does** find a reason to shoot at it, it won't take much to hose it off the board.

Everything about this unit screams "noobhammer". The unit costs less than a deathstar because it's not a deathstar. It's a noobhammer. You admit as much yourself:

Jancoran wrote:
Your reaction is proof of my point. It is a unit that is QUITE powerful that most people don't beleive in or take much at all.

That's the very **definition** of noobhammer. A unit capable of hurting people who don't know how useless it actually is and try to deal with it the wrong way. The fact you went 5-0 with it in your army list doesn't change that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jancoran wrote:
Most people have played so few games against Sisters of Battle and even less of those very few have played against one wielding this unit.

That's a noobhammer you're describing. Becomes powerful in the face of people who don't know how to deal with it, or deal with it incorrectly, due to lack of experience. In such a situation, Repentia are "OP". In all others they're a waste of space. That's the mark of a noobhammer.

First, I would steer away from arguing with good results. Of all the things that strip away an argument, none does it more quickly than actually demonstrating that it works in tournaments.

I remember back in 5th Edition people said that about Orks because they were winning GTs left right and centre. It was borderline sacrilege to point out they were a noobhammer army, and as a result lots of people went out and bought Ork armies thinking they too could win lots of GTs. Then people started bringing balanced, sensible armies to GTs, instead of Terminator/ Land Raider nonsense, and suddenly the Orks were getting creamed - even "top" Ork players, the kind of people who scoffed at everyone that derided their investment, were failing to place. People who bought Ork armies blamed "Codex creep", until it was pointed out to them that mech MEQ had been smushing Orks for ages and if they'd only been a bit more analytical, and perhaps questioned the voice of experience a bit more rigorously, they could've saved themselves a lot of time and money.

So yeah. That's what you get for not questioning the voice of experience; a useless 2000pt Ork army and a £1,000 credit card bill. Just because it *can* work in tournaments, doesn't mean it's not a noobhammer. This Repentia unit is another example, as far as I can see.

Second, the HQ isnt "part of the unit". You would already have one.

You would have **one**. It'd be the Canoness, and she wouldn't have any wargear except perhaps a boltgun. If we subtract the cost of the basic Canoness, the price of the unit drops from "Imperial Knight" to "two BSS in Immolators with dual special weapons". A less expensive noobhammer, but a noobhammer all the same.

tl;dr - The Repentia aren't OP. They're a noobhammer.

**Jancoran**

BBAP wrote:

It seems reasonable to me that the ICs are included in the point cost calculation.

The unit is the Sisters Repentia. The way I use them is with the help of characters I would take anyways. thus you are inflating it. But lets say you weren't? it doesnt change anything. Even at 358, its an awesome return.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

BBAP wrote:

The fact you went 5-0 with it in your army list doesn't change that.

.

It actually does.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BBAP wrote:

I remember back in 5th Edition people said that about Orks because they were winning GTs left right and centre.

We uh...never allowed that in our groups. never saw orks dominate. So...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BBAP wrote:

tl;dr - The Repentia aren't OP. They're a noobhammer.

One last point I almost forgot. the codex has actually been out forever. So nothing in it is a surprise. Moreover, its function is obvious. Its a bag of hammers. I dont think my opponents were in the dark as to that point. i think they just acted like you. They ignored it until it was too late. or they paid too much attention and ignored the rest of the army. I am sure that both mistakes have been made because the underlying truth of it is that ts good. It doesnt matter whether you TRY to do somerthing about it. All you CAN do about it is shoot it. But rthen...you're ignoring the other units. And so. in this case there really isn't a great answer for dealing with them and that is a good sign that it deserves consideration. Losing it isnt crippling but keeping it is devastating. Isnt that the sign of a great unit?

**BBAP**

Jancoran wrote:
The unit is the Sisters Repentia. The way I use them is with the help of characters I would take anyways. thus you are inflating it.

Right, but Sisters don't get a Convocation-style "buy one get them all free" deal on their HQs and wargear, so every point you spend over and above the basic Canoness is one less point you can spend on your army. The figure is not inflated. You are removing units from your army to include this noobhammer. At 358pts, the cost for the entry-level footslogging noobhammer, you're removing two squads of dual-special weapon Battle Sisters in Immolators.

It actually does.

I've been dancing this dance with "uber" players since 4th Edition. I'll say it doesn't every time you say it does, but you'll never believe me. Ho hum.

I notice no information about this tournament has been forthcoming either. That's one of the usual steps in this sad cha-cha-cha. Obviously it'd be bad form to just take your word for it so I'm not going to do that - is there any independent source of information about this hyper-competitive tournament you walked over with the mighty bolter-bouncing Repentia of Doom? What army lists you were up against, that kind of thing?

We uh...never allowed that in our groups. never saw orks dominate. So...

I'll dig out the list of GTs they won in North America some time. And the reams of bitter, acrimonious back and forth here on Dakka and on other fora that usually occurred whenever anyone dared question the mighty Orks. Funnily enough, the reason Orks sucked is the same reason you seem to think this Repentia unit is OP; all they could do was mongle forward and charge stuff, though their whole army was like that and they didn't have mech Sisters backing them up. They were also a lot harder to kill and had a much greater board presence.

i think they just acted like you. They ignored it until it was too late. or they paid too much attention and ignored the rest of the army.

I've never suggested ignoring them. Ignoring a noobhammer is what gives it power, and ignoring any unit in your opponent's army is bad form unless it's in a horrendously bad position and is thus irrelevant. One of the main problems with Repentia is that they lack the mobility to overcome bad positioning, so one of the ways you can deal with them is by forcing them into a bad position using obstacles or your own army's mobility. That's not a problem you'd have with Sisters in an Immolator, particularly not the two extra units you'd get by leaving this noobhammer on the display shelf.

As for the second scenario, I don't even know how that could happen. It's a Rhino with T3 5++ infantry in it. What kind of shabby army list are you running where you can't spare a couple of shots to rattle a Rhino or blow up some T3 5++ infantry without fatally crippling your ability to control the game? My GSC army is nothing *but* T3 5+ infantry, and it will die if anything looks at it funny. I just don't get it at all.

tl;dr - It's not the lack of killing power that makes Repentia suck, it's the fact they're too slow to avoid obstacles and therefore too easy to catch in the open, where they're too fragile to survive for long. You're trying to fix these issues by stuffing your HQ slots full of wargear and characters - which is what you're doing, whether you want to admit that to yourself or not - but no matter what you do, they're still just Repentia. They're not OP. They're not even "underestimated"; they're correctly estimated, which is why nobody uses them.

**Jancoran**

BBAP wrote:

Right, but Sisters don't get a Convocation-style "buy one get them all free" deal on their HQs and wargear, so every point you spend over and above the basic Canoness is one less point you can spend on your army. The figure is not inflated. You are removing units from your army to include this noobhammer. At 358pts, the cost for the entry-level footslogging noobhammer, you're removing two squads of dual-special weapon Battle Sisters in Immolators.
.

I laughed a little bit when I saw this. You are...again... trying to say that the HQ's wouldn't already be in the force. That is simply not true. So your statement isn't true. Moving on.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BBAP wrote:

I notice no information about this tournament has been forthcoming either. That's one of the usual steps in this sad cha-cha-cha. Obviously it'd be bad form to just take your word for it so I'm not going to do that - is there any independent source of information about this hyper-competitive tournament you walked over with the mighty bolter-bouncing Repentia of Doom? What army lists you were up against, that kind of thing?
.

thats easy to answer. I did a battle report on this. Ill find it for you.

**Jancoran**

Jancoran wrote:
I wanted to post a follow up to my comments on the Sisters Repentia.

I played 8 games of Warhammer this weekend in two different tournament using the list I posted before. For reference and to save you scrolling, I'm posting it below.

Vs. Bullyboyz Formation list:
Very well painted. He was a trukk army with trukks filled with Meganobz and his commander trucking in a Battle Wagon with normal Nobz, plus a bunch of boyz on foot. The game was Kill Points, so he was very much favored in this one, as my army has about 21 and he had 13 or something. He shoved himself up my nose Ork Style and I let him have a mulligan when he forgot to move all his trucks in the shooting phase flat out. He swing ten of his meganobz to my right flank and started smashing on Rhinos I had placed there midfield on round 2. My Sisters Repentia and Assassins combined to butcher the first unit of Meganobz. His second unit of them took exception and crashed into the Sisters Repentia to rob them of their charge attacks and hopefully stomp them out, and he hit me plenty of times. The setup on my unit allowed me to weather it. I then spent his turn and my next killing them all. The left flank was under attack by his bikers and they can really shoot, killing a rhino on the come and then because I failed to kill them all, his Klaw got another one. That flank was kind of me pushing everything over there and waiting for his big ork blob to come on and when they did, they actually shot me pretty good, but then...the flames came and ended all that. I washed away the orks that showed up after their initial shock and awe attack. Final score was 12-7 Adepta Sororitas.

Vs. Lamenters Chapter w/ Forge World Land Raider and Death Company Deathstar w/ Characters
Mission was to control at least two objectives for 1 point and to control MORE than the opponet for an additional +1 or +2 depending on how many.

The general and I have known each other for quite a while but never played so it was GREAT to get to play him finally. He's won best painted at this tournament 3 straight years and he's quite a good fellow. This time he brought his Lamenters, the Successor Chapter, and he loaded a ton of Death Company, his Libby, his Commissar and Corbulo all into some kind of crazy Forge World Land Raider that has serious punch. His IG melta vets came in via pods (yes they are still allowing that until the FAQ's and such are approved) while scouts held the Rearguard and his Hydra prepared to scan the skies for trouble. Mission? roll forward and crush the enemy to take their things. he had two objectives in his deployment zone and he was camped on them. I had both of mine midfield and needed to go get them. Into the maw of madness we go.
As I was going first, i scouted up and stayed i nthe Rhinos, taking a hull Point off the big Land Raider but that was okay. My Sisters Repentia and Assassisn shifted around and waited for the inevitable Drop Pod landings while the Sisters of Battle jetter to midfield to get closer to them thar objective points.
His first drop went off perfectly and he attempted to assassinate the Exorcist but missed with all three attempts. While it was no guarantee that he was going to kill it anyways, that was kind of hard medicine to take. To make matters worse, his Land Raider rumbled forward and immobilized itself on terrain, grinding to a halt where it had started. Fortunately for him, I had come way forward. So he hopped out and started jetting towards my Dominion Rhinos intent on their destruction. They did in fact tear one into smithereens in melee making a pretty good charge. so he got First Strike at least. what was a real downer was the explosion caught a ton of his guys and he actually lost 5 of them! geeeeeez. It was maybe the worst first round ever?
In round two I got my retributors out who had swung out to the left flank at full speed, and between them and my dominions they did a ton of wounds but his commissatr of all things took like 18 wounds before dying! Good LORD that guy was a champ. That made up for a LOT the previous round but it still meant his unit was dwindling very quickly. I also shoved my assassins into his veterans and they got a bit lucky, surviving it and even getting away! More good rolls for him so his second round went about as well as it ever was going to go. The Sisters Repentia blew the Drop pod up and sent it to the great Scrap heap in the sky. the Lamenter responded by nuking more transports nad more of my dominion, but I made him go through those Rhinos first. I was not going to give ground on that objective any faster than i needed to.
Round three was the end of all but his Librarian and a couple of Death Company. Corbulo took ti to the face from an Exorcist and the Retributors actually did their job this time as did the remaining Dominion etc... Long story short his Librarian took soooooo many saves and made them that it was incredible but he protected his men from harm. My Assassins and Sisters Repentia chased after the fleeing Guardsmen while this was going on. His onslaught continued and he smacked into more Dominions and killed more tanks with that LandRaider of his. that thing hits hard. Anyways, the second pod came in and put two hull points on the Sisters of Battle Rhino I had far to the right on an objective and that was not what he wanted either.

The rest of the game was pretty much just Assassins chasing across the table and eventually (like i mean waaaay eventually) getting to his backfield and slaughtering the scouts by the Hydra..

In the end the game was much closer than the story suggests. We both held two objectives for most of the game and it was only at the end that I broke the gridlock points wise because he kept me from reaching his Objective the Land Raider was on and the other took me all game to get to with Assassins. Still, final score was 8-3. More importantly, he and i finally got a game in.

[b]Vs. Vs. Nurgle Chaos Marines with dual Princes[/b]
I have no anti-Air, it was hammer and Anvil and his Typhus and Terminator buddies went into deep strike. The idea was to bring up the Princes and the troops, sit on objectives and keep me pinned i nmy backfield to the extent that he could. he had a laspredator to shoot at my tanks which took me all game to kill (though cover was on my side so that was a saving grace).

His Nurgle Marines were incredibly resilient and took shooting like champs. It took me a long time to whittle them given that he used his rhinos like I do, to shield his men from harm and give them a home to hide in and plasma things to death. His Cultists were safely waaaaay far away from me and standing on an obIective doing their thing. I do not think he was ready for how good the Sisters Repentia were though. His Terminators swung first and I think with that many attacks and str and their FnP and all that jazz, he was confident he could end them. he could not and we ate him and all his friends as well as the Daemon Prince which alighted to the ground eventually to engage me. The Daemon Prince took two wounds from the Retributors as he killed them which was kinda cool and then it turned to kill more things before finally being stopped. My favorite moment was a brilliant move where i kind of managed to get all my rhinos JUST SO, and my Dominion JUST SO and then instead of shooting his Rhino, I charged it and killed the Rhino with grenades. the reason was because i needed to take an objective and the only possible way was not to shoot the rhino because if i did, it might explode and leave them sitting on it. But if i assaulted it, it would just force them in the only direction they could go which was away from the objective. It was a calculated risk since grenades arent nearly as sure as Meltas but it was the situation and I went for it and got it! In the end, he ended the game with exactly ONE Nurgle Marine on the table, and nothing else.

Vs. tool'd up Forge World Zombie Nurgle list using a Sicarian Tank, Forge World Cannons, HQ's and stuff

This was a tough game. the list had a Forge World Character and Forge World rule zombies with 4+ fnp and fearless and so on. He pushes the zombies outto keep you from ever getting close to his firing line which contained IMPRESSIVE STR 9 AP 1 TWIN LINKED lascannons (essentially) and then the Sicarian Tank which was insanely good at its job. He had a little extra zombie action to mill around the firing line and protect it as well. His force included a Plague Drone, which I am surprised I don't see more of and his commander in one Rhino with Plague Marines while his other character on bike accompanies the Spawn the streak forward and smash things. His 3 Obliterators were deep striking. I lost tank after tank. I couldn't make the saves when I even got them (mostly just Shield of Faith Saves since the Sicarian tank ignores cover). he lost a small melta Raptor squad jumping into my corner with no room for error and the Obliterators did the same albeit he didnt lose them and they came back to wreak havoc as usual. My defense was a good offense. I pushed the field HARD and made movement my priority.

the mission was 5 relics, the one on the middle and one in the middle of every sector. Table Quarters deployment (cool).

so we both started on one and were fighting over the other three. I decided to go for broke and reserved a lot in order not to lose tanks AS quickly and so i seized three of the objectives by turn two. His Spawnstar came to have a little say about that and assaulted my Sisters Repentia in the far corner after wrecking their rhino with his "Lascannons". this was a fatal error as he came to learn. In two rounds of combat there were no more spawn nor his character left. Here again he wanted the weight and superior initiative of his attacks to waste me. Again the build i described earlier paid off and I wrecked him. that objectives was safe for the rest of the game. I ran the Sisters repentia forthe rets of the game behind a Dominion Rhino, never getting them out because I needed the shielding and eventually made it to near the center where his Zombies had taken the objective. Took all my shooting to make them drop it and then we looked at the charge and it was like 12" to get the Repentia Sisters in there. I rolled Box cars. Wow. We both couldnt even beleive it because we spent a good five minutes bs'ing about how impossible it was and how he had seen it before and i was like "I dunno..." and then he's like "Well I have no overwatch" and so I went for it. Bayam. So those zombies are not zombies anymore. This in turn placed me next to his warlord as well and by this point he had seen enough ofthat unit and jumped in a rhino to avoid giving up the Warlord.

Final score was 14-2 Adepta Sororitas.

Vs. Dark Eldar venom spam with Eldar biker allies and Warp Spiders

Intense game . We were doing 3 hour rounds and we used literally every second to finish that game.

It was the Scouring but the twist was that Objectives explode on a 4+ when a unit moves within 3". He had a very well equipped force to deal with mine. Warwalkers to outflank (lances), Warp Spiders, venom spam, and of course Eldar allies for Scatterbike support and Objective stealing goodness and of course the Autarch. His beastpack was well built, and the Autarch on bike did a lot to bolster them. His Haywire Scourges were of course perfect for sniping out Exorcists. He had all the tools he needed there.

I chose to let him go first which threw him, but I REALLY needed to know where he was going to put everything. He ended up deciding to Deep Strike the Warp Spiders, outflank the War Walkers (which I expected) and to leave his Grotesque bomb with Webway portal in Deep Strike as well. Maximum flexibility to go after the objectives once they were revealed.

I decided to reserve everything except for the Sisters Repentia Squad, the Assassins and the two Exorcists.

His Talos and bikes all shot up the field, while hugging cover and his Scourges moved around the cvorner to make their shots. The shield of Faith saved my exorcist but ti took a hull point. His Scatterbikes hit the Rhino with the Repentia in it and stripped two points despite excellent cover and Night Fighting. Otherwise it was mostly movement and jockying for shots as i had given very little to him in that regard. My first priority was killing Scourges, so i shot and killed 4 with Exorcists and sent them running and they never regrouped. Repentias got out. I moved the Assassins around and made a mistake doing it which left a gap for him, which he did not miss. On his second turn he exploited it killing the two Crusaders attached to the unit, he killed the Repentia rhino as expected with his Stinger Pods on his Talos as it approached again. His War Walkers outflanked on me and shot at my Exorcists but they survived thanks to cover. His Spiders dropped in and put hull points on my Assassin Rhino. His Reaver bikes moved forward and got blown up by the sabotaged Objective and fled the rest of the game off the board. WOWA. He never saw that one coming but we BOTH got more careful about those things at that point. His only unit that didn't come in was a unit of Kabailites and his Grotesque bomb.

Reserves went poorly and i basically only got two units of Dominion in. The Assassins attacked the beastpack and it held, but would break in the bnext turn. Dominion attacked his War walkers and proceeded to kill one and put a hull point on each of the other two. Not good. His windshield save was on point all game and I never killed either of those things all game long. Thats how that went.

The Exorcists fired down on the Warp Spiders, causing them to move towards the Exorcists with their flicker jump, and away from my assassins who were down to like three dudes thanks to my positioning error. That made it a 9 inch charge. they made it and smashed up the Warp Spiders, leaving only two alive, who they then improbably failed to catch. Grrr. So they went a runnin and I had two Deathcult assassins left. The Sisters Repentia moved up and prepared to meet the Talos head on next turn if they could survive the enenmy shooting.

On his turn 3 he shot the crap out of my Canoness and her unit. Couldnt make a save no matter how hard we tried and his dice were near perfect. The Eldar eneded up slaughtering them all except my Warlord and one of the Sisters Repentia. Ouch. So much for that plan, and that was the only game where they never got to perform something cool. every other game they were MVP's. The Talos which moved forward, had nothing to charge so it just kinda stood there. His Warp Spiders kept running, but his WarWalkers smashed up another rhino and then got the Dominion inside charged by his Wyches from a Venom (that combat lasted to the end of the game but stopped me from shooting with them). His shooting otherwise was to rhinos and largely he therefore had nothing to do.

My reserves came in, but this time I only got the last Cominion squad and the Sisters of Battle. So i sent the Sisters to take over where the Sisters Repentia had been on the 2 point objective and had the Sister Repentia back up intio the cover and Uriah got into the Rhino with the Sisters. The Dominion came in to the enemy backfield to linebreak and start shooting war walkers. which bounced every single shot. Again. windshiled Saves. Gotta love it. The other Dominion tried again but...no. wow. windshild Saves everywhere! Not a single one got through. so....

turn 4 in came the Grotesquebomb. they annihilated the Dominion that were closest to my 3 point objective and that putthem right there to multi-charge the Exorcists out of existence the next round etc... i had to stop them. His Scatter bikes came up and killed my sisters of Battle Rhino on the other three point objective to my left where the Repentia sister was cowering in the shadows after their abject failure. The venoms shot up anything not in a rhino which was my assassins and i think they killed the other Dominion squad that was line breaking so i was down to just their rhino back there.

On my four i pushed my rhino up onto his backfield 2 point objective. Retributors came on and baked the insides of the Grotesque Raider, then blew the Raider up with Storm Bolters and they actually failed their morale and ran. No impending assaults which was good because even though I hit a lot with the Flamers, his FnP was insanely good and so it took all the shooting I had just to force that.. The sisters of Battle who came on from reserve in the center took the 2 point objective and shot up the Mandrakes that had been skulking among obscuring terrain for some time and i really had no way to get to them until then.

The 5th round he had to make his move and so he brought everything up and prepared to end me. He auto-regrouped the Grotesques, but they were nowhere near anything they could affect. The Mandrakes shot at the rhino just because and Jetbikes came up to fire but for once i didnt take it entirely in the shorts.

On my turn, I killed all six Scatter Bikes with fire from Exorcists and mostly Bolters and Storm Bolters. Uriah took two out on his own with a shotgun from 20" away. Hilarious. I tank shocked the Mandrakes but they held, and continuedtrying to hide my sisters of battle in their cubby hole. the objective didnt explode which was nice.

This left him with two venoms to move to objectives and a couple War walkers to try and save the day plus a single WarpSpider (he lost one to flicker jumping). His Mandrakes were there too but really in no position to help. So in the fastest round ever of 40K he flew to the objectives he needed to in order to hold them and killed the Rhino that was trying to take his 2 pointer in the backfield. That was all he could do.
final score 16-12 (because of Fast Attack kills he racked up quite a few points that way)

Vs. 5 Flyrant list with special pinpoint deep strike Formation using Lictors and Mucolid spores

Loved this list. shows that Tyranids are alive and well. this game is easily summarized. i backed away, he came at me and repeat only he dropped his pinpoint Lictor drops right in there and Mucolid spores gummed things up too so i spent a lot of time killing them before they could charge me but that meant his Flyrants were Psykering and running free, shooting me to death. I however did have superior position from an objective standpoint and eventually i got him out of good position because of his flying. I just needed his Warlord to die and I would win 7-6. I wounded his warlord three times in round one, and needed just one more wound I got a hit on him with no cover saves with meltas in rounds 3, 4 and 5. All three times, i rolled a 1 to wound. it made an enormous difference. Ended up losing 10-1 but even in the last round had he failed it, i win. So i felt like ultimately it was just "one of those games". Great game, and very skilled opponent. He has done very well at other tournaments that i have seen him in more locally so i know what he can do and it was good to face that kind of competitor.

Vs. Heavily Forge World special Terminator list with Storm Raven and Land Raider

nearly 100% Forge World goodness. He had a Contemptor and al kinds of fun stuff. he essentially only deployed 1 Land Raider and his thing that does Orbital blasts which is some kind of rhino chassis thing. I dunno frankly what it was. Everything else was in a Raven or dropping in.

His Contemptor got eaten after showing up to kill Exorcists, by Sisters Repentia. His land Raider was killed turn one by Scouting Dominions, and the rest of his units were chewed up over time by shooting. He rolled the worlds largest quantity of 1's, ever. i dont think it would have made a difference in this game, honestly because although I caught him flat footed by the Scouting Dominion, the real issue was that i just as easily could have waited for him to come to me and done the same thing. the sisters Repentia ate everything anywhere remotely close to them and the Exorcists threw almost no shots all game (it was as bad as his saves). I genuinely felt for the guy because i am not really certain there was ever a way for him to win that missions with what he was bringing. His whole command squad even managed to jump from the Storm Raven and crash into some stuff, destroying it and then... well... Uriah and his Repentias just worked him.

Vs. Battle Company with Grav spam
well... We had almost identical forces as far as mackeup goes: basically a lot of dudes in boxes. His boxes were free, his statline was better, his Grav Weapons were ideal for the task (two hits and the box dies. Dumb). He brought three Drop pods to the party just to keep you away from his tanks. he went first so there was that as well. Nowhere to hide, null deployment wasn't really an option in that scenario and yeah.
Despite this adversity... I did actually have a chance to win. he droppe in round one and obliterated most of the boxes i had to hide behind and after several rules arguments that he lost (as if bringing that list wasn't unfriendly enough?) we got around to my turn. I annihilated his drop units and showed him what Sisters Repentia do. this kind of weent on for some turns and my reserves seemed not to want to come in. Finally they did and i started hitting back. Way on my right flank, i smashed up a rhino there and sort of secured the objective on my far right from getting taken. and then I kept smashing with Dominion to keep the second one over there from him. So far so good. My dominions showed up finally in turn four way behind him, onto another objecitve andI was going second so he had to now mosey over. So despite the ridiculous mismatch, I had the chance to control three fo the four objectives in the last round! I just needed to smash up his vehicle without exploding it which would ensure the far one and kill a rhino and its guys in the near one. i did everything I needed to do win except i overdid it with the meltas and ended up exploding instead of wrecking the one on the far objective. That essentially gave him the game. but it was close and i think he was surprised that there was ANY path to victory for me at the end, Lol. He apologized afterwards for being a jerk but the game certainly was a tense affair and frankly when you sling that kinda army onto a table, a little magnanimity isn't too much to ask for i think. Maybe that's just me.

Anywho, all in all excellent. I felt like the one that got away was the Tyranid one and i really only felt outclassed in the battle Company fight.

Throughout all these games, the one commonality is: Sisters Repentia really are great performers for me.

Ordo Demry

: Combined Arms Detachment (Primary Detachment) (71#, 1999 pts)

6 Retributor Squad(Simulacrum Imperialis + Heavy Flamer x4)
1 Veteran Retributor Superior (Melta Bombs + Combi-Flamer x1)
1 Rhino(Dozer Blade)

1 Exorcist

1 Exorcist

4 Battle Sister Squad (Flamer + Flamer)
1 Sister Superior, (Melta Bombs)
1 Rhino (Hunter-killer Missile)

4 Battle Sister Squad (Flamer + Flamer)
1 Sister Superior, (Melta Bombs)
1 Rhino (Hunter-killer Missile)

7 Repentia Squad
1 Rhino (Hunter-killer Missile)

1 Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave
2 Crusader, 8 Death Cult Assassin
1 Rhino (Hunter-killer Missile)

1 Uriah Jacobus

1 Canoness (Combi-Flamer x1+ Melta Bombs+ Rosarius, 1 Mantle of Ophelia)

1 Ministorum Priest (Melta Bombs, 1 Litanies of Faith)

7 Dominion Squad (Simulacrum Imperialis + Meltagun x4)
1 Veteran Dominion Superior (Melta Bombs + Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino

7 Dominion Squad (Simulacrum Imperialis + Meltagun x4)
1 Veteran Dominion Superior (Melta Bombs + Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino (Laud Hailer)

7 Dominion Squad (Simulacrum Imperialis + Meltagun x4)
1 Veteran Dominion Superior (Melta Bombs + Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino

Found it.

**AnomanderRake**

CrownAxe wrote:
BBAP wrote:
That's what I'm looking at. Nothing in any of those to suggest the permission for non-Tyranid, non-GK psykers to use Malefic powers has changed from the BRB. That's what you need to show me.

Except they do, The Daemon, CSM, and AM ones do state that they have access to daemonology powers

What powers other Codexes state they have access to has nothing to do with what powers the Inquisition gets to use.

If they didn't want to allow Renegade Inquisitorial armies they'd have taken away the Daemonhosts and/or told us we weren't allowed Malefic Daemonology.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm looking over Repentia and the biggest thing standing in the way of calling them 'OP' (at least to me) is the restriction on using Acts of Faith with allied characters attached. They're not very durable even with the Act and they're undersupplied on modes of delivery; most of the armies they could use to ally in an assault vehicle just have better options of their own (15ppm Death-Cult Assassins under Hammerhand get four S6/AP3 attacks at WS5/I6 on the charge by comparison to the 14ppm Repentia's four S6/AP2 attacks at WS4/I1 on the charge, for instance). If they had their own assault transport, could be joined by allied characters for psychic buffs/wound tanking, and/or had either of the old Spirit of the Martyr Acts back (attack before dying if you're killed before your Initiative step, or 3++ for a phase) they'd make a more credible case for actually being OP than they do.

**Jancoran**

They don't need more buffs than I gave them. Beleive that. Lol. Again: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnomanderRake wrote:

What powers other Codexes state they have access to has nothing to do with what powers the Inquisition gets to use.

Indeed.

**AnomanderRake**

Jancoran wrote:
They don't need more buffs than I gave them. Beleive that. Lol

You didn't give them anything that makes them anything other than T3/6++ against shooting attacks. or lets them get to combat without standing in the open to be shot for a turn. A dedicated melee unit that loses more than one model per two bolter hits on average is very difficult to call 'OP'.

I don't have the full details on your games but it looks to me like the battle report you posted was probably absolute best-case for Repentia in a tournament setting. You had multiple opponents who had access to the tools to kill Repentia (bolters) and chose to assault them with units that weren't good at fighting them (low volume of attacks below S6 at Initiative) instead, you had several perfect matchups for them (small/elite and/or melee-oriented armies who came to you), and (of course) grav-weapons that can't actually damage Repentia. If you'd seen more than three armies with significant ranged presence or some of the Codexes Repentia aren't well-equipped to deal with (Tau, Necrons, AdMech, Craftworlders (as a primary Codex), Harlies...) they would have disappeared without doing anything much more frequently than they did.

A unit that works in stacked matchups or because your opponents committed gross blunders isn't OP.

**Jancoran**

AnomanderRake wrote:

You didn't give them anything that makes them anything other than T3/6++ against shooting attacks. or lets them get to combat without standing in the open to be shot for a turn. A dedicated melee unit that loses more than one model per two bolter hits on average is very difficult to call 'OP'.
.

I am lost on this comment. Did you not read the article? They have 5+ invuls not 6. 3+ FnP twice per game with Uriah. Re-rolling everything under the sun. Armourbane. I mean... You want more? Lol.

All truly great units are gauged by two things: does it sting real bad if you lose them... and do they wreck face on a serious level when allowed to do their thing? If the answer is no and then yes in that order, then you have a damn fine unit. Any unit that needs a transport isnt planning on "sitting in the open" for a round if they can help it. I'm pretty sure I will respect my opponents savvy more than that.

Perfect matchups? No. The Bullyboyz was a good matchup but the others? No better or worse than most. Eldar/Dark Eldar was super hard. Lamerters had a very good deathstar to match my own. it was HOW we used them that differed, not the matchup. I just played smart and didn't run up to gunlines, as you seem to think we will (well to be fair I did once and paid for it but that was mostly to draw fire and God himself was rolling the dice for my opponent on that round). There's a sea of rhinos to hide behind and a sea of Dominion for the opponent to worry about before they go worrying about "little old weak Sisters Repentia". Then theres the Assassins... and the Heavy Flamers... The exorcist... So hard to choose.

Anywho, I am fine with the underestimation. That very underestimation was the thing the thread is about. So hey. I've beaten the dead horse enough.

**BBAP**

Jancoran wrote:
I laughed a little bit when I saw this. You are...again... trying to say that the HQ's wouldn't already be in the force. That is simply not true. So your statement isn't true. Moving on.

Canoness is mandatory. Everything else is extra expenditure. Your HQs are part of the unit. So is their cost.

You disagree. I don't care to convince you otherwise. Any onlookers who care can make up their own minds.

thats easy to answer. I did a battle report on this. Ill find it for you.

What did I just say? Independent source of information. It's nothing personal, I just believe in corroborating things I'm being told. Especially when I'm being told that someone took a unit of Chainfist Guardsmen to a competitive tournament and swept the board because Fleet Chainfist Guardsmen are just **that** awesome.

Of course, you're getting more and more mendacious as you get more defensive so that's another reason I don't believe you.

But... okay. Let's assume you're a reliable narrator for the sake of argument. I'm reading through the battle reports and I'm seeing some really weak army lists - Land Raiders galore, CC Orks in Trukks with footslogging Boyz, Eldar lists with all the S6 of the universe but no psykers or Wraith units, plus Mandrakes and War Walkers. Chaos Space Marines. A **Terminator** army. Then there's the "Death Company deathstar". This is probably a hobbyist judging by the painting awards, and likely someone who plays for fun using the only army they own - which is great, because it's **his** time, so he gets to spend it on whatever aspect of the hobby makes him happiest. What you can't do is hold this person up as an example of competitive 40k and try to convince me that Fleet Chainfist Guardsmen are the t*ts because they cranked out a win against this dude. You can't do that with any of these armies, because they are all weaksauce.

You can't use your results against the Flyrants or Battle Company either because you lost both of those games. Wonder why?

"Codex creep", right? "Cheese", maybe?

No.

Jancoran wrote:
I am lost on this comment. Did you not read the article? They have 5+ invuls not 6. 3+ FnP twice per game with Uriah. Re-rolling everything under the sun. Armourbane. I mean... You want more? Lol.

More lies of omission. They get a 3+ FNP for two assault phases (NB: not turns) per game *in close combat against anything S5 or less*. They get rerolls and S6 AP2 Armourbane *in close combat*. In the shooting and movement phases, they're Fleet Chainfist Guardsmen with no lasguns. You don't even get rerollable saves or FNP against Exploding Tank Shockers or Dangerous Terrain. Just... yeah.

If you have to omit details about a unit to make it seem less like a noobhammer, it's probably a noobhammer.

All truly great units are gauged by two things: does it sting real bad if you lose them... and do they wreck face on a serious level when allowed to do their thing?

That's the yardstick for judging expensive noobhammers. It stings if you lose them because you wasted points assembling them. They must be "allowed to do their thing" because the opponent must fail to deal with them - if they are *allowed* to do their thing they can put a hurt on, but they must be given leeway because they're incapable of making their own. The games against the Orks and Drop Pod Marines are a good example; Orks can't shoot you, so the Repentia get into CC, while Drop Pods land next to you, so the Repentia can get into CC. Woohoo, "great unit"!

Great units can affect the game regardless of how your opponent plays or what army he's running. They punish mistakes your opponent makes in list construction and tactics, but they don't rely on these mistakes to be effective. Wraithknights can affect, and potentially change, any game they're in from 48" away. Imperial Knights likewise. Preventing them from doing so requires a dedicated concentration of resources - you can't just move away from them, or Tank Shock them into obscurity, or feed them a unit or two to keep them away from stuff that matters. You **have** to kill them. Multimelta Immolators are a great unit because they're transports with a turret weapon that can be Snap Fired; they're not particularly tough, but they're cheap and plentiful, which also increases your board presence, plus when they die five Sisters (who are also pretty great) with special weapons fall out of them.

Everyone knows these units are great so they don't qualify for the thread, but they're still great units.

Repentia, on the other hand, move 6+12" per turn, can't do anything outside of CC, are Guardsmen against shooting, and suck up 293pts you could be spending elsewhere. They don't qualify for the thread because they're a noobhammer.

**Xenomancers**

Jancoran wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:

You didn't give them anything that makes them anything other than T3/6++ against shooting attacks. or lets them get to combat without standing in the open to be shot for a turn. A dedicated melee unit that loses more than one model per two bolter hits on average is very difficult to call 'OP'.
.

I am lost on this comment. Did you not read the article? They have 5+ invuls not 6. 3+ FnP twice per game with Uriah. Re-rolling everything under the sun. Armourbane. I mean... You want more? Lol.

All truly great units are gauged by two things: does it sting real bad if you lose them... and do they wreck face on a serious level when allowed to do their thing? If the answer is no and then yes in that order, then you have a damn fine unit. Any unit that needs a transport isnt planning on "sitting in the open" for a round if they can help it. I'm pretty sure I will respect my opponents savvy more than that.

Perfect matchups? No. The Bullyboyz was a good matchup but the others? No better or worse than most. Eldar/Dark Eldar was super hard. Lamerters had a very good deathstar to match my own. it was HOW we used them that differed, not the matchup. I just played smart and didn't run up to gunlines, as you seem to think we will (well to be fair I did once and paid for it but that was mostly to draw fire and God himself was rolling the dice for my opponent on that round). There's a sea of rhinos to hide behind and a sea of Dominion for the opponent to worry about before they go worrying about "little old weak Sisters Repentia". Then theres the Assassins... and the Heavy Flamers... The exorcist... So hard to choose.

Anywho, I am fine with the underestimation. That very underestimation was the thing the thread is about. So hey. I've beaten the dead horse enough.

I don't doubt the units tenacity - just it's ability to make combat. I think I'd rate them about as useful as tactical terminators. Which can easily be MVP's if your opponent is stupid enough to not exploit their weakness. I'd say - not OP at all.

**Martel732**

I think OP units have a tendency to stand out. It's really hard to be "back door" OP. OP necessarily has a mathematical component, or else it's just a player (like Jancoran) being clever.

I find it very interesting that so many people are underestimating so many units. I can't afford to underestimate grots, but maybe I've just been trained by my codex since 6th dropped.

**AnomanderRake**

Jancoran wrote:
I am lost on this comment. Did you not read the article? They have 5+ invuls not 6. 3+ FnP twice per game with Uriah. Re-rolling everything under the sun. Armourbane. I mean... You want more? Lol.

All truly great units are gauged by two things: does it sting real bad if you lose them... and do they wreck face on a serious level when allowed to do their thing? If the answer is no and then yes in that order, then you have a damn fine unit. Any unit that needs a transport isnt planning on "sitting in the open" for a round if they can help it. I'm pretty sure I will respect my opponents savvy more than that.

Perfect matchups? No. The Bullyboyz was a good matchup but the others? No better or worse than most. Eldar/Dark Eldar was super hard. Lamerters had a very good deathstar to match my own. it was HOW we used them that differed, not the matchup. I just played smart and didn't run up to gunlines, as you seem to think we will (well to be fair I did once and paid for it but that was mostly to draw fire and God himself was rolling the dice for my opponent on that round). There's a sea of rhinos to hide behind and a sea of Dominion for the opponent to worry about before they go worrying about "little old weak Sisters Repentia". Then theres the Assassins... and the Heavy Flamers... The exorcist... So hard to choose.

Anywho, I am fine with the underestimation. That very underestimation was the thing the thread is about. So hey. I've beaten the dead horse enough.

You're missing the fundamental distinction between a 'good' unit and an 'overpowered' unit. Repentia are a good unit because they perform very well under the right circumstances, against the right targets, and with the right support. Point them at a unit that doesn't have great volume of attacks at Initiative, get them into melee, and they'll blend a lot of targets. Overpowered units are strictly better (that is, better under all circumstances) against most or all targets than the majority of the competition both within their Codex and outside it. Their performance isn't dependent on matchup, they aren't easily hard-countered, and they invalidate other choices in the book just by existing.

Wraithknights are 'overpowered', because they're very close to the toughest thing in the game at their pricepoint, because they've got the best price-performance on melee attacks at their pricepoint, because they make every other melee unit in their Codex redundant, and because they're difficult to hard-counter (grav-cannons, basically). Repentia aren't overpowered because they're very fragile, not very fast, are forced to take incoming attacks before they get a chance to attack.

Imagine, for a moment, ten Repentia hop out of their Rhino 2" away from a naked Tactical Squad. They're staring the bolters in the face. The Tactical Marines know they're dead, they can't get away, and they're going to have to stare death in the face and hopefully die bravely.

They stand their ground and open up with twenty rapid-fire bolter shots. Each one is dealing around 0.37 wounds to the squad, they kill between seven and eight on average. The Repentia's turn comes around, they attempt to charge. The Act of Faith is up now, with that and snap shots the Marines are only dropping 0.61 more on average. There are now two Repentia left alive. The Space Marines take their ten attacks at the I4 step and kill one of the two, the last remaining Repentia kills 1.6 Space Marines.

So at the end of the first round of combat one of the ten Sisters Repentia is standing in combat with eight of the ten Space Marines.

A unit that is easily countered by naked Tactical Marines isn't an 'overpowered' unit by any stretch of the imagination.