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I'm not sure this unit qualifies simply by the merit that most people know it is strong by now. When I first started using it no one really respected this units abilities. Now it's the priority target in every game I take them.

Supression force with 3x WW and a LS. This unit parked behind something that can block LOS will totally annihilate any infantry unit on the board. Another sweet trick you can use is tiggy WL trait for rending on your shots too. Holy Moley.

TL, Shred, Pinning, Ordnance, Barrage, str 5 ap 4 - (rending with tiggy WL trait) OMG. All for very cheap.

In a similar vein I don't know if this is just because nobody's noticed it yet, but the Warpflame Host and the Locus of Conjuration lets you put out a silly quantity of autocannon shots. It's not cheap (three twenty-man Pink Horror blobs for durability and psychic dice, six Exalted Flamers for massive gunfire, and an ML3 Locus of Conjuration Herald comes to 960pts) but you get 6d3 S10/AP2 shots or six S6/AP3 Torrent flamers from the Exalted Flamers and potentially 12d6 S7/AP4 shots from castings of Flickering Fire in the psychic phase.

Most of the rest of the Tzeentchian offensive powers become terrifying with +2S from that formation. Bolt of Change is a Strength 6+d6/AP2 beam, Warpflare is a Strength d6+2/AP4 Nova dealing 2d6 hits...

From standard space marines/angels of death.

Probably smashf*cker prime, i just learned about him myself.

he is basically a unkillable HQ that only has 2 weaknesses, D, and massive amounts of blob units, but other then that, he can beat every single primarch in a one on one fight* and even stand toe to toe with the theoretical emperoro(10s across the board)*

*Assuming horus does not use world breaker and the big Es claw is not a D weapon.

This is his profile

165 pts

WS:6 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:3 LD:10 Sv:2+

Wargear:

Cataphractii Terminator armour
Combi-bolter
Power sword
Iron halo
Gorgon's Chain
Special Rules:

And They Shall Know No Fear
Chapter Tactics (Iron Hands)
Eternal Warrior
Feel No Pain (4+)
Independent Character
Invulnerable (3+), reroll 1s
It Will Not Die (5+)

So, yeah a pretty funny freaking model.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In a similar vein I don't know if this is just because nobody's noticed it yet, but the Warpflame Host and the Locus of Conjuration lets you put out a silly quantity of autocannon shots. It's not cheap (three twenty-man Pink Horror blobs for durability and psychic dice, six Exalted Flamers for massive gunfire, and an ML3 Locus of Conjuration Herald comes to 960pts) but you get 6d3 S10/AP2 shots or six S6/AP3 Torrent flamers from the Exalted Flamers and potentially 12d6 S7/AP4 shots from castings of Flickering Fire in the psychic phase.

Most of the rest of the Tzeentchian offensive powers become terrifying with +2S from that formation. Bolt of Change is a Strength 6+d6/AP2 beam, Warpflare is a Strength d6+2/AP4 Nova dealing 2d6 hits...

What you are describing is probably the strongest formation in the game at present. You are right though - people have yet to figure this out.

I'd always assumed Smashf***er Prime was the Biker Chapter Master build, but I'm going to have to go take a look at whether the reroll-1s 3++ is worth losing a Wound, an Attack, and T5.

(He is also 230pts (CM (130) + Bike (35) + Gorgon's Chain (45) + Artificer Armour (20)) before buying him a melee weapon, but he does have four Attacks on profile, a pistol, Jink, and the ability to go a lot faster)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd always assumed Smashf***er Prime was the Biker Chapter Master build, but I'm going to have to go take a look at whether the reroll-1s 3++ is worth losing a Wound, an Attack, and T5.

(He is also 230pts (CM (130) + Bike (35) + Gorgon's Chain (45) + Artificer Armour (20)) before buying him a melee weapon, but he does have four Attacks on profile, a pistol, Jink, and the ability to go a lot faster)

Well the big thing is bike smashf*cker only has a 6+ FNP, Smashf*cker prime gets a 4+ so yeah one less attack and 1 less toughness but a hell of a lot more suitability since he has eternal warrior so you will still get that save.

I've noticed that many people underestimate the cheap durability of a Canoness.

For about 130-150 points and a priest in her unit, I have 3+/4++ re-rollable, with EW on top. More than capable of tanking even the nastiest beatsticks for awhile.

Canoness is good. I don't think that's debatable. But OP?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Repentia are a good unit because they perform very well under the right circumstances, against the right targets, and with the right support. Point them at a unit that doesn't have great volume of attacks at Initiative, get them into melee, and they'll blend a lot of targets.

Provided the target they're pointed at isn't too far away. And they don't have to walk around anything. And even in situations where they **can** make a charge, it'll be against whatever your opponent decides he wants them to assault, not what you'd like to run them into. They suck outside of close combat and don't even get to pick their own targets. "Good unit" indeed.

Wraithknights are 'overpowered'

That's one way to interpret it I suppose. The way I look at it, if I'm paying 300pts for a unit I want it to be able to carry 300pts-worth of load in terms of killing stuff, controlling the game and surviving abuse. If it can't, it's a bad unit and people won't run it. The Wraithknight can do that. Imperial Knights also. That's why they're good units, they work like they're supposed to and are reasonably costed for what they bring to the table.

The opposite is true of other stuff in this price range, like Land Raiders and Father Uriah's "Hammer of the Noobs" Repentia load-out. These are units which maybe do one or other of these things well but are worthless in every other respect. Hence, they're bad units.

Also Banshees and Scorpions didn't suddenly become bad because the Wraithknight arrived - they've always been that way.

Imagine, for a moment, ten Repentia hop out of their Rhino 2" away from a naked Tactical Squad...

Don't math-hammer 1v1 fights with ten-man boltgun Tactical Squads. No unit in the game is ever going to be in that position. If you want to math-hammer, make it relevant to how a unit would perform on the tabletop. See how long the Canoness can tank hits from a single Chimera with her non-rerollable 3+ save and no FNP. Better yet, evaluate the outcome of Uriah's Noobhammer attacking a vehicle in close combat - and before you draw any conclusions from this calculation, remember they only get FNP(3) in two assault phases out of the entire game.

 Jancoran wrote:
They don't need more buffs than I gave them. Beleive that. Lol. Again: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:



What powers other Codexes state they have access to has nothing to do with what powers the Inquisition gets to use.

Indeed.

I love 40k unorthodoxy

That repentia unit is scary. I liked reading that piece about them, I had no idea about that combo before

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well the big thing is bike smashf*cker only has a 6+ FNP, Smashf*cker prime gets a 4+

Iron Hands = 6+ FNP

Gorgon's Chains = +1 FNP

Fists of Medusa Detachment bonus = +1FNP within 12" of another IC from the same Detachment (i.e. the Techmarine from an Armoured thingy formation).

Then you stick him in a Bike Command Squad with a narthecium and suddenly he has FNP(3), which he can take against anything that isn't S10 (Termie-Prime's FNP is washed out by Meltaguns). Put a Litanies Priest in the unit and he gets to reroll his armour or invul saves in close combat - all of them, not just 1s. He's also a Bike character, which means he's not going to be stuck wandering around the table like a Terminator would be.

He's still not OP though because he costs a fortune and is Infantry - unless you take the Bike, in which case he costs even more.

5+ Narth-a-Narth.
4+ IH Chapter Tactics.
3+ for being near an IC.
2+ for Gorgon's Chain.

It's a 2+ on Smash, not a 3+. He's insanely durable unless you have Instant Death.

It's far from OP, but I find that lobbas are an underused and underestimated unit.

They're not as good as, say, thunderfire cannons or wyverns (don't ignore cover), but they're dirt cheap, iron tough, nearly impossible to kill with shooting, and can put tons of wounds on nearly any infantry.

So many of these issues can be avoided by asking your opponent exactly what each unit does before you deploy. Truly OP stuff like scatbikes leaves you few options even after learning what they do.

 BBAP wrote:

Imagine, for a moment, ten Repentia hop out of their Rhino 2" away from a naked Tactical Squad...

Don't math-hammer 1v1 fights with ten-man boltgun Tactical Squads. No unit in the game is ever going to be in that position. If you want to math-hammer, make it relevant to how a unit would perform on the tabletop. See how long the Canoness can tank hits from a single Chimera with her non-rerollable 3+ save and no FNP. Better yet, evaluate the outcome of Uriah's Noobhammer attacking a vehicle in close combat - and before you draw any conclusions from this calculation, remember they only get FNP(3) in two assault phases out of the entire game.

I was attempting to make a more general point about the problems with trying to deliver a fragile infantry assault unit without an Assault Vehicle transport, and a tangential point about the problem with Unwieldy on a 1W/T3 assault unit.

For a more interesting 'realistic scenario' test for Uriah's Noobhammer squad (plus an Eviscerator on the Canoness, leaving that off may save points but she's not about to go before anyone, S3 is a problem for HQs in melee squads, and as one of my friends' Krieger Colonel routinely demonstrates 3W/EW is usually enough to let you let loose once before dying) let's imagine that they've been able to get a charge off against a Knight-Errant. This isn't the most realistic scenario we could concoct but it's here because it'll be funny and they should actually be quite good at it.

The Knight is striking at I4, before anyone but Jacobus (who can't actually hurt it and is thus standing at the back looking silly). Both Acts of Faith have gone off and War Hymns are set to The Emperor Protects for save rerolls. The Knight makes three attacks, each one on a 4+ to hit, 2-5 to wound ignoring the FNP/6 to wound ignoring the Invul as well. The Knight only manages to kill 0.7 Sisters ((1/2 (to hit) * ((2/3 (wound allowing invuls) * 2/3 * 2/3 (rerollable 3+)) + 1/6 (wound ignoring invuls))) * 3 (attacks), feel free to check my math if you can follow the parentheses). Rounding for convenience the remaining five Eviscerator Repentia put out twenty attacks hitting on 4+ (rerollable) and glancing on 7+ on 2d6. That gives us about three glances and seven pens after the Canoness' attacks are factored in so the Knight is definitely dying. Before it goes it gets to make a stomp attack and has about a 30% chance to get at least one 6 (RFPing the majority of the squad, no saves of any kind permitted), otherwise killing approximately two more Repentia with Strength 6 hits (assuming about four hits per template). The only time the Repentia will get to make a FNP save the entire phase is if the explosion roll is low. I don't have the geometry of the explosion and the distribution of the scatter in front of me but the most common result of the explosion is going to be all of the remaining six models in the unit hit at high strength and AP3, killing about two more models.

So the 300-ish point noobhammer unit will absolutely win a fight with a 370+pt Knight (assuming you somehow make it to combat), but most of them will be blown up doing so.

 BBAP wrote:


What did I just say? Independent source of information. It's nothing personal,

More lies of omission. They get a 3+ FNP for two assault phases (NB: not turns) r.

Uh... i am pretty sure you are getting personal. I also think no one needed it explained to them that we were talking about two combat phases. perhaps you did.

I'll nominate the humble Land Speeder Typhoon. 70 points nets you 2 S8 AP3 shots at 48" and 3 S5 AP4 shots at 36", all on a fast skimmer platform that needs to expose very little of itself to shoot, due to being able to fire out of either side of the TML, so it should basically always have a cover save and not need to jink. When taken as the fast choice in a Demi-Company not only is it one of the cheapest options (only beaten by other Land Speeders with lighter loadouts), but it gains ObSec as well. It's not overly tough, but has the range and speed to keep it safe from harm, throwing out the dakka all game. It's no Javelin (whoever wrote the updates for that was high), but still a bargain for 70 points.

For those of you that don't know, the Javelin Attack Speeder is the 30k version of the Typhoon, except the front AV is 11, the Typhoon Missile Launcher is Twin-Linked, it has Strafing Run and Outflank, and only costs 55 points.

 BBAP wrote:


Repentia, on the other hand, move 6+12" per turn, can't do anything outside of CC, are Guardsmen against shooting, and suck up 293pts you could be spending elsewhere. They don't qualify for the thread because they're a noobhammer.

You're free to disagree as you say. So a melee unit is by your definition not allowed to be awesome then.. Tisk tisk. Setting conditions now are we? i think that's probably a little unsporting.

Battle Companies are one of the best things in the game. And he almost lost to me. His name is Todd Johanssen and he happens to be pretty good as you can see in the ITC standings, ranked 39th out of 4309 ranked players, so top 1% of all players. I don't think there's much shame in losing there. In fact none. The Tyrant player should have lost. He should have lost in three different rounds actually. But: dice. One die in particular. Needed a 2. Three rounds in a row. Didn't get it. There's really not much to apologize for their either given that I owned no anti-air and no Psykers. By all measures i was in trouble from the word go and still by all measures did enough to win, other than roll that die correctly apparently. Tyler Larson was the opponent there. Ranked 48th currently out of 4309 ranked players. Top 1% again. But those things happen. i myself am in the top 3%. So since you're big on qualifying things, let's do that.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-rankings/

The wins can't all be against world beaters of course and I don't think anyone has to in order to see the wreckage this unit causes. That is independent of these list issues because lists werent the issue. codex's weren't the issue. Individual units was. And as an individual unit, played the way I play it, it's exceptionally good.
.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In a similar vein I don't know if this is just because nobody's noticed it yet, but the Warpflame Host and the Locus of Conjuration lets you put out a silly quantity of autocannon shots. It's not cheap (three twenty-man Pink Horror blobs for durability and psychic dice, six Exalted Flamers for massive gunfire, and an ML3 Locus of Conjuration Herald comes to 960pts) but you get 6d3 S10/AP2 shots or six S6/AP3 Torrent flamers from the Exalted Flamers and potentially 12d6 S7/AP4 shots from castings of Flickering Fire in the psychic phase.

Most of the rest of the Tzeentchian offensive powers become terrifying with +2S from that formation. Bolt of Change is a Strength 6+d6/AP2 beam, Warpflare is a Strength d6+2/AP4 Nova dealing 2d6 hits...

What you are describing is probably the strongest formation in the game at present. You are right though - people have yet to figure this out.

'


hmm thts an interesting candidate for the list for sure. I mean you're not truly talking about just one unit there but an entire formation but still...that sounds pretty good to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:
I've noticed that many people underestimate the cheap durability of a Canoness.

For about 130-150 points and a priest in her unit, I have 3+/4++ re-rollable, with EW on top. More than capable of tanking even the nastiest beatsticks for awhile.

yup. and you really dont even need her to be THAT expensive honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
They don't need more buffs than I gave them. Beleive that. Lol. Again: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:



What powers other Codexes state they have access to has nothing to do with what powers the Inquisition gets to use.

Indeed.

I love 40k unorthodoxy

That repentia unit is scary. I liked reading that piece about them, I had no idea about that combo before

Thank you for the compliment. You like the blog eh?

 JNAProductions wrote:
5+ Narth-a-Narth.
4+ IH Chapter Tactics.
3+ for being near an IC.
2+ for Gorgon's Chain.

It's a 2+ on Smash, not a 3+. He's insanely durable unless you have Instant Death.

A-ha! but when he leaves the unit his FNP drops! It goes all the way down to... 4+.

And he gets to take it against Meltaguns and Lascannons.



I don't like him.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I was attempting to make a more general point about the problems with trying to deliver a fragile infantry assault unit without an Assault Vehicle transport, and a tangential point about the problem with Unwieldy on a 1W/T3 assault unit.

Your first point; the fragility of the unit is one of its many drawbacks, but it's far from the worst. The unit may reach combat, but it won't ever reach anything I don't want it to, and there's jsut absolutely no way you can make them do that - unless I screw up, in which case it's noob-hammering time.

Your second point is largely moot. The Canoness can tank well enough that I1 isn't a big deal. The article specifically makes that point and it's difficult to disagree with it.

That's not the problem with Repentia, though. They're fine in close combat, better with this load-out. The problem is what they're doing prior to getting into close combat, and their mobility (or lack thereof). You can't fix that with a Canoness tanking and Uriah Heep.

So the 300-ish point noobhammer unit will absolutely win a fight with a 370+pt Knight (assuming you somehow make it to combat), but most of them will be blown up doing so.

Right - so the Repentia noobhammer has hammered a noob who charged his Imperial Knight into a unit full of ***Chainfists***. I mean... what else were you expecting? Did you imagine the result would be different? And you know that's the way it'd happen, don't you? The Knight would be charging the Repentia. It would never, ever be the other way around unless you double down on your noobhammering and add in a Stormraven or Land Raider.

Like I said, if you're going to math-hammer make it realistic and relevant. Unless you think charging a Knight into Infantry with Chainfists is a good idea, in which case... I dunno what to tell you. Pray you never play against Jancoran.

Now do the Rhino one I suggested earlier. Or the Chimera shooting one.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

So the 300-ish point noobhammer unit will absolutely win a fight with a 370+pt Knight (assuming you somehow make it to combat), but most of them will be blown up doing so.

maaaaaybe but it hasnt happened a lot (losing the unit). The Knight only has 4 attacks. That wont kill the Canoness in most fights because a 4+ re-rollable saves and she can pass off a 6 to the Mistress. She can then absorb the stomps as well as long as they arent a 6. There again she can pass of JUST the 6's. It's the 6's that are the problem and frankly if i trade units i suppose that's not the worst trade off i ever heard of. I'd rather see her take as many hits as possible for the team though and she generaly perishes eventually due to weight of dice. but in just that one combat, I've won without losing the unit way more often, but it is true, you run that risk. I mean you cant tangle with something like that, dance with the devil and win all the time. =)

right but for IK. Rapid fire battle cannon is the most common load out. uhh..pretty sure this 1 shots the whole squad. The next most common IK is a crusader...THATS EVEN MORE instant death for the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Perth wrote:
I'll nominate the humble Land Speeder Typhoon. 70 points nets you 2 S8 AP3 shots at 48" and 3 S5 AP4 shots at 36", all on a fast skimmer platform that needs to expose very little of itself to shoot, due to being able to fire out of either side of the TML, so it should basically always have a cover save and not need to jink. When taken as the fast choice in a Demi-Company not only is it one of the cheapest options (only beaten by other Land Speeders with lighter loadouts), but it gains ObSec as well. It's not overly tough, but has the range and speed to keep it safe from harm, throwing out the dakka all game. It's no Javelin (whoever wrote the updates for that was high), but still a bargain for 70 points.

For those of you that don't know, the Javelin Attack Speeder is the 30k version of the Typhoon, except the front AV is 11, the Typhoon Missile Launcher is Twin-Linked, it has Strafing Run and Outflank, and only costs 55 points.

More armor? Better guns? And costs less? That's forge world for you.

I feel like i have a lot of options vs repentia, even with ba.

 JNAProductions wrote:
5+ Narth-a-Narth.
4+ IH Chapter Tactics.
3+ for being near an IC.
2+ for Gorgon's Chain.

It's a 2+ on Smash, not a 3+. He's insanely durable unless you have Instant Death.

He also has EW so he will always get the FNP right? Insta death negates FNP, but EW negates Instant death, so he should still get it right?


The only thing that screws him is D


Wait nvm Id still prevents FNP even with ew

EW just allows you to not lose all your wounds when doubled out. Being doubled out still prevents FNP rolls.

 BBAP wrote:



Right - so the Repentia noobhammer has hammered a noob who charged his Imperial Knight into a unit full of ***Chainfists***. I mean... what else were you expecting? Did you imagine the result would be different? And you know that's the way it'd happen, don't you? The Knight would be charging the Repentia. It would never, ever be the other way around unless you double down on your noobhammering and add in a Stormraven or Land Raider.

Like I said, if you're going to math-hammer make it realistic and relevant. Unless you think charging a Knight into Infantry with Chainfists is a good idea, in which case... I dunno what to tell you. Pray you never play against Jancoran.

Now do the Rhino one I suggested earlier. Or the Chimera shooting one.

Mobility is always the thing that people site. I said so in my article. i get it.

math says I am at the 30" mark in round one. The Dominion are firing round one into the Knight. So it probably is dead before it matters. Between Dominion and the Exorcist, it's highly unlikely that it survives. Once that has happens to you, you are in a big hurry not to have that kind of thing repeated. So on the enemies turn, I have more than validated their fears of the Dominion. There is a cornucopia of RHINOS they can fire at at that point but my guess is the Exorcists and Dominion might have their attention. and it is that moment that makes this unit work. You can absolutely blast the unit out of the rhino but then they just sit behind the rhino and use other rhinos to approach closer on the following turn. You can do the math on AV 13 and how many shots and all that but first, you have to HAVE the shots.

So against a melee force of which there are many and which represent important parts of many competitive forces, there is no trouble. the enemy will come to me. If they have a really good amount of ranged firepower, I am going to force them to decide between Dominions and repentias who aren't in their grill.

So as the article states, the strategy here is simply to give the enemy no MEANINGFUL choice between targets. Sure they have a choice, but it seems fairly obvious who they will attack.

The Knight therefore is not likely to be a target that the Repentias even need to worry about. but going down that road, there are Lancers. Those things are very fast and melee oriented. They have one mode essentially and so they WILL come for me or be a paper weight. Against those sorts of Knights you would definitely be using Sisters Repentia to repel them. All Knight armies, well... they have no choice.

The Wolfstars, Skyhammers, Battle Companies like Todd's and the various deathstars like paladinstars and Blood Angel Terminator formations and so on all are relying on martial prowess to outclass me and of course the Repentias shine in those games. Chancy Rickey, who is a regular opponent (here again, check the ITC standings on Saturday, he just won another GT and should be jetting up a lot, possibly shooting for that top spot in Space Wolves as well but is already ranked 83rd out of 4309 players) didn't like those Repentias too much. I only say that because certain people need "validation" of everything anyone says here apparently and he can also be directly communicated with at www.warsound.com. Lol.

Tau Empire is another army that really dislikes the Rhino spam because while they can kill the rhinos for sure, its not before those Dominion and Exorcists are on top of them and inflicting serious pain, forcing the same exact questions on them. let the Dominion keep firing ....oooooor...not.

Sisters Repentia will get there. and then there's the Assassins so the enemy may well prioritize the Assassins above the Repentias out of target priority. They won't be likely to be attacking Imperial Knights but Wraith Knights? sure. Wraith Knights often play board control and love to be in your face to wreak havok. When it doesn't and when it survives the melta assault (or deploys in some way to avoid it) it is not playing to its strong suit. I'm okay with that. Pinning that big boy in place for a a whiles suits me!. But Repentia probably would be likely to fight that thing.

So unless you tailor your list to be 100% shooting gun line like Todd Johanssens is, I like my chances. Even if you DO that...I still like my chances. Can't win 'em all though. Where would be the fun in that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I feel like i have a lot of options vs repentia, even with ba.

That is the most positive thing I have ever heard Martel say. Good on you man. Also, the Lamenters definitely had a good deathstar and it took saves like nobodies business against me so yeah. You do. I fought an army that had that and it was touch and go in the middle of the board there.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that I'm more positive about taking on Repentia squads than scatterbikes.

I can't get away from the scatterbikes. I can't outshoot them. I can't catch them, even with BA. Being shot down to ineffectiveness is still the single biggest problem BA have. Being an assault army that loses to most other assault armies is just icing on the cake.

Something like a heavy bolter attack bike squad is pretty nice against Repentia squads, but are t-totally useless vs scatbikes.

Martel732 wrote:
It shouldn't come as a surprise that I'm more positive about taking on Repentia squads than scatterbikes.

I can't get away from the scatterbikes. I can't outshoot them. I can't catch them, even with BA.

Something like a heavy bolter attack bike squad is pretty nice against Repentia squads, but are t-totally useless vs scatbike

So you need a Raptor Talon. Blood angels now have a Terminator version they can use to silence Scatterbikes. have you used it? I fought it at the GT I went to a couple weekends ago. Perfect answer it seemed to me. it allowed you to either shoot twice or to assault on the drop. Pretty cool.

 Jancoran wrote:

 BBAP wrote:


What did I just say? Independent source of information. It's nothing personal,

More lies of omission. They get a 3+ FNP for two assault phases (NB: not turns) r.

Uh... i am pretty sure you are getting personal.

How is that in any way personal?

I also think no one needed it explained to them that we were talking about two combat phases.

Maybe not, but it's always worth laying out specifics instead of making ambivalent statements.

Unless you're being mendacious in an attempt to make a point and the specifics would weaken your argument. In that case ambivalent statements are the way to go.

perhaps you did.

Oooh, salty! Keep this up and I'll have to buy you a scratching post.

So a melee unit is by your definition not allowed to be awesome then.

Not an Infantry one, for reasons I've already laid out, which you have not condescended to address.

Setting conditions now are we?

Yes. In order for a unit to be considered "good" it must actually be in some way capable of having a meaningful effect on the game. Not unreasonable, in my view.

Killing a Sicarian might qualify, if they'd done it from a standing start - but they didn't, did they? He had to move it where they could reach it in order for them to kill it. Same with the Pod Squads, and the Meganobz, and suchforth.

Battle Companies are one of the best things in the game.

Why, because everything is ObSec and has Grav? You play Sisters - half of your army is ObSec. Or at least it could be if you weren't running Father Uriah, Hammer of Noobs.

And he almost lost to me.

"Almost..."

The Tyrant player should have lost.

"Should have...."

But: dice. One die in particular. Needed a 2. Three rounds in a row. Didn't get it.

"Needed a 2..."

As an aside... remember when 5th Ed DEldar players took twelve Dark Lances and a bunch of other garbage in their armies, then blamed "bad dice" for the fact they were losing to mech Wolves? BBAP remembers.

The wins can't all be against world beaters of course

No, but if you want to claim this unit has some competitive merit then at least some of them should be against world-beating players . None of yours were. Nearly, perhaps, but "0" is the figure we arrive at when we add up the total.

and I don't think anyone has to in order to see the wreckage this unit causes.

What precisely did they wreck? A few Pod Squads that landed on their doorstep. A Sicarian that came towards them. Some Orks who wanted to fight anyway. Stuff they were given the chance to charge. Hooray for Repentia, right?

That is independent of these list issues because lists werent the issue. codex's weren't the issue. Individual units was.

The quality of Repentia was originally the issue. The other stuff became an issue when you tried to claim you were using this unit to great effect in competitive 40k.

Transpires that wasn't the case. It was what I said originally all along.

And as an individual unit, played the way I play it, it's exceptionally good.

And with that, we've fully transposed from a general claim about the competence of Repentia to a more specific claim regarding your ability to wield them "effectively" against sub-optimal lists (but not optimal ones). I'm not feeling contravened by any of this.

I still hate terminators, even in that formation. I really dislike it because it plays into BA problem #2, that of not being able to beat actual assault lists. Using that terminator formation is basically an auto-loss against Space Wolves, Demons, or a Sisters list like you fielded.

I'm not confident in its ability to simulate a Raptor Talon because terminators are so much more expensive and can engage fewer units as a result. In the best case, you kill three squads of three bikes and the rest get away scot free.

 BBAP wrote:

Killing a Sicarian might qualify, if they'd done it from a standing start - but they didn't, did they? .

As i recall i won that game...so... I'm not sure what killing that particular tank would have done for me?


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 BBAP wrote:



Maybe not, but it's always worth laying out specifics instead of making ambivalent statements.

Unless you're being mendacious in an attempt to make a point and the specifics would weaken your argument. In that case ambivalent statements are the way to go.
.

Like i said. personal.


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 BBAP wrote:



Not an Infantry one, for reasons I've already laid out, which you have not condescended to address.

We disagree. melee units can be and are awesome. See Wulfen for details. You're fundamentally wrong here.


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 BBAP wrote:

Why, because everything is ObSec and has Grav? .

Yes? Obviously?