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Martel732 wrote:
"Thankfully I a can avoid Eldar/Tau/'Nids players"

That doesn't help the rest of us. Making the Stormsword decidedly NOT OP.

Invis + anything dangerous = automatically OP. Because invis. This is trivially true.

I am not disagreeing with that Martel, hell I know just how nasty Invisibility can be, and MC's will murder a Stormsword. But it does murder Infantry lists.

 BBAP wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
Interceptor helps vs any deepstriking/reserves that would possibly get any heavy/special weapons close that would otherwise avoid fire.

Also, in this 1v1 scenario it's ALREADY been done. One round of shooting is all it took for the fire warriors to win, even assuming you are it into CC the next turn (needing a 9" charge). Once an ethereal and darkstrider are added to get closer to the point value of your Rep + IC squad, catching them is a pain, being able to run + snap fire, and then run another D6 after they fire over watch. And that's still cheaper than your squad at 258points, meaning there would be another ~11 fire warriors. Theory hammer says your squad loses in both mobility, and damage potential to a cheaper unit.

This is all true - but again, it's math-hammer. This scenario might not occur on the board, and even if it did I don't think "making your points back" is a valid concept.

An example to try and explain why I feel this way. My GSC have 3 ML2 Patriarchs. That's nearly 400 points wrapped up in three T5 4+ models. Last game I played, they killed nothing. Not a thing. Didn't even make a single charge the whole game. They didn't "make their points back", so they must suck, right?

Well no. One of them kept a unit of Neophytes fighting a deathstar for two turns and forced it to HnR into a bunch of Morphs, whereas the other two sat in corners, preventing broken units running off the table and providing dice to Summon more Morphs and deny Lightning Arc repeatedly. For reference, Lightning Arc murders my army because they're a bunch of T3 5+ dudes who struggle to avoid being within 6" of one another because they're Infantry and need to support each others' assaults. Kind of like how Repentia can't avoid being within 6" of Dominions or their transports if you're using the one to shield the other, but I digress.

Another example - if Father Uriah's Hammer of Noobs charges a Knight, or a Stormsurge, or whatever, it **will** kill them, and in doing so it's made back its points. Must be OP, right?

Well no. The thing is, this unit will never, ever, ever in a million years reach a Knight or Stormsurge that the opponent doesn't feed it. It will never charge **anything** the opponent doesn't leave lying around for it. It is a Fleet Infantry unit, with the inherent lack of mobility that designation brings.

It can't charge things I don't want it to. Can't do it. "But but but Rhino..." - doesn't matter. Can't do it. Can't move more than 6" a turn and assault, can't jump over obstacles during any movement, can't ignore terrain - can't do it. You simply cannot get around that lack of mobility no matter how hardy they are in CC, how much stupid wargear you add, how many models you add - you can't do it.. "But muh Repentia killed [xyz] in {game]!" - did the opponent give a gak if he lost [xyz]? If "yes", then your opponent failed by feeding it to the Repentia. If "no", then you were permitted to kill something your opponent considered irrelevant enough to sacrifice. That's not a useful contribution.

***That's*** why this unit is a noobhammer. Your opponent has to actively gift it with opportunities in order for it to affect the game, and if he doesn't it's easy enough to deal with because it's Chainfist Guardsmen.

Right, what I meant though, was with a MUCH cheaper unit, I completely neuter the unit, meaning it's wasted points (in my opinion). It's not forcing me to do anything other than move slightly, and either takes forever to get near CC (and opens it self up to being destroyed), or has to skirt around the edges, picking targets it can safely charge which brings the risk of them doing nothing if units simply move slightly away from. If they don't actively charge something, they're not gonna affect the game. That's the difference between a psyker and the Reps. A psyker can do nothing but cast a few powers/deny a few powers and change the course of the game. A wraithknight can lock down a decent section of the board and change the game (or absorb ungodly amounts of fire). WWP wraithguard can pop out anywhere without scatter and annihilate any single target (or more if they're grouped up way too closely), thus changing the game. Most of the hallmarks of OP units are a combination of either range/damage/mobility/special abilities. reps have damage output, but they don't have the range (melee weapons obviously), mobility (up to 12" if they run, slightly more when disembarking, but then they can't charge), or survivability (chainfist guardsmen).

But yeah, I agree, points are not everything, I was just using that as an example of how little it really takes to shut them down.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Interceptor helps vs any deepstriking/reserves that would possibly get any heavy/special weapons close that would otherwise avoid fire.

Also, in this 1v1 scenario it's ALREADY been done. One round of shooting is all it took for the fire warriors to win, even assuming you are it into CC the next turn (needing a 9" charge). Once an ethereal and darkstrider are added to get closer to the point value of your Rep + IC squad, catching them is a pain, being able to run + snap fire, and then run another D6 after they fire over watch. And that's still cheaper than your squad at 258points, meaning there would be another ~11 fire warriors. Theory hammer says your squad loses in both mobility, and damage potential to a cheaper unit.

An OP unit does not require everything going in their favor to be good.

No one said anything about Deep striking.

Aside from that... I still don't see what this has to do with it. I can shoot a lot of things dead with a lot of things. I can say simply that a Demolisher makes Grotesques terrible because its cheaper, kills multiwound models like crazy and has the AP to do it. But you'd be wrong. Grotesques will never be terrible. This is the trouble with discussing things on forums. Even in the perfect scenario where you obliterate them (and... obviously... It has happened) the same has happened to a milllion worthy deathstars before. the fact that it CAN die is not the dispute but you're sort of making it the dispute.

Anywho. Obviously it can die. Obviously. GIVEN that it can die...as every other thing in 40K can die... Does it wreck face in a serious way and does it matter to the grand scheme if I lose them? Clearly it wrecks a lot of face. Clearly its not easy to remove by anything in close combat. Clearly the only trick to using the Repentia is to block line of sight to them as they do their grisly work. This is all pretty much tactical considerations that have nothing to do with the unit, and everything to do with whose running them. So assuming one does the intelligent thing with them and doesn't leave them in the wind as you'd intimated that someone would,..






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 BBAP wrote:


The title of this thread is "What is an op unit in your codex that nobody knows is op?"

Unless we're interpreting "OP" as "whatever gak-ass unit you whup noobs with" then there are objective answers to that question against which people's opinions can be weighed. When said opinions turn out to be stupid with respect to reality, it's fine to say that. When someone disagrees, it's fine to ask for evidence, and when the provided evidence is deficient it's okay to say that too.

Frankly I think your problem is less about me pushing conformity, more that someone "insulted" your little internet-friend by questioning his opinion on a particular unit. Don't do that. Your little friend isn't being a snowflake about this, don't be one on his behalf.

You arent asking for evidence. You're just being unpleasant. I remember this guy names Stelek who acted similarly.

Martel732 wrote:
...There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage...

Acolyte Hybrids.

The list of things they don't have the advantage against only has AV14 Rear, or AV 14 front walkers, as single models. It doesn't include much people typically think of as good either.

Back to the "secretly OP" debate, I'd like to add the Corsair Void Dreamer.

40k is ultimately a game about board control, and Aethermancy is all about movement, be it getting your guys around faster or moving your opponent's army around. Is that Barkstar blocking your passage? Just move it back into Ongoing Reserves and grab that objective. If you think Cult Ambush is the new OP hotness, try out Warp Blink (which incidentally also functions as a lesser version of the once-hated Lash) or Warp Tunnel out for size. Plus, with the draft FAQ ruling, a unit counts as all the factions of all the units joined to it; your Dreamer can chill with a beefy unit of Grotesques or so, granting them a 5++ from a Shimmershield in the process.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Back to the "secretly OP" debate, I'd like to add the Corsair Void Dreamer.

40k is ultimately a game about board control, and Aethermancy is all about movement, be it getting your guys around faster or moving your opponent's army around. Is that Barkstar blocking your passage? Just move it back into Ongoing Reserves and grab that objective. If you think Cult Ambush is the new OP hotness, try out Warp Blink (which incidentally also functions as a lesser version of the once-hated Lash) or Warp Tunnel out for size. Plus, with the draft FAQ ruling, a unit counts as all the factions of all the units joined to it; your Dreamer can chill with a beefy unit of Grotesques or so, granting them a 5++ from a Shimmershield in the process.

He's also got a way to turn off the Wraithknight. Send it back into Reserves every time it hits the table and it'll never make it to melee (yes, I know there are gun loadouts, but the melee one is much more fun).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...Plus, with the draft FAQ ruling, a unit counts as all the factions of all the units joined to it...

I hadn't noticed this one. I'm trying to figure out a funny thing to do with it, but most rules that actually care about faction specify "models in this unit with [faction]" (so allied ICs don't benefit from Chapter Banners, for instance). So far I've found Corbulo, Azrael's Rites of Battle (which is almost entirely irrelevant), and borrowing other peoples' Fearless/reroll Morale/Stubborn bubbles from flags or Warlord Traits. Vanilla-Codex Space Marines all have the same Faction and their special rules reference "models with [x] Chapter Tactics rule". You could argue the Curse of the Wulfen carries over to allied units with Space Wolves ICs, but trying to apply the benefits to non-Space Wolf units is almost always a downgrade over just using them on Space Wolves.

It seems like the only things this actually helps with are making Codex-specific Maelstrom objectives a little more forgiving with allied armies and making Preferred Enemy a little more forgiving against allied enemies.

...You could use Craftworld/DE ICs to let the Cast of Players formation give Crusader to Corsairs, I suppose?

 Jancoran wrote:

No one said anything about Deep striking.

It was a general assumption, don't get so hung up on it. I assumed at some point someone would bring up deepstriking. I also don't see what you're trying to point out by repeating this.

 Jancoran wrote:

Anywho. Obviously it can die. Obviously. GIVEN that it can die...as every other thing in 40K can die... Does it wreck face in a serious way and does it matter to the grand scheme if I lose them? Clearly it wrecks a lot of face. Clearly its not easy to remove by anything in close combat. Clearly the only trick to using the Repentia is to block line of sight to them as they do their grisly work. This is all pretty much tactical considerations that have nothing to do with the unit, and everything to do with whose running them. So assuming one does the intelligent thing with them and doesn't leave them in the wind as you'd intimated that someone would,..

No, I assume you're at some point wanting to charge with them, which involves disembarking from that fragile metal box they would otherwise ride around in. It's not hard to pop a rhino. It's not hard to kill guardsmen. It's not hard to kill both when they're combined, and blocking LoS to them 100% of the time just isn't gonna happen. At one point they WILL be exposed, and that's where they get shredded, as that's all it takes. ONE round of shooting to remove whatever damage they might have caused, and not even one round from a massively OP unit. The difference between your deathstar and an OP deathstar is that an OP deathstar creates it's own opportunities, it doesn't need to rely on blunders by the opposing player. I.e., I wouldn't rely on my enemy forgetting/ignoring a gravcent star. I don't hope my enemy still doesn't know what eldar scatbikes do. The Rep star doesn't bring anything special to the table in terms of mobility, survivability or anything special other than chainfists. Most deathstars don't crumble before a single squad of tac marines or fire warriors.

In my search for funny things to do with mixed-faction units I did run across the Sacred Banner of the Order Militant, which gives +1A to all friendly units (period) within 12", and it doesn't specify that it doesn't work when embarked. Hide a command squad in a tank and follow Conscript mobs around watching them dump hundreds of attacks into the opposition.

 Jancoran wrote:
You arent asking for evidence.

I was. Look, here:

 BBAP wrote:
I notice no information about this tournament has been forthcoming either. That's one of the usual steps in this sad cha-cha-cha. Obviously it'd be bad form to just take your word for it so I'm not going to do that - is there any independent source of information about this hyper-competitive tournament you walked over with the mighty bolter-bouncing Repentia of Doom? What army lists you were up against, that kind of thing?

That's me, asking for evidence of your claim back on page four - evidence you STILL haven't provided, by the by.

What is it with you and lying? Stop it.

You're just being unpleasant.

Hey, if you want to be condescending, uppity and dishonest, then I reserve the right to poke fun at you. If you find that "unpleasant" I don't know what to say to you. "Stop being condescending, dishonest and uppity", perhaps?

"Get a helmet, snowflake"?

I remember this guy names Stelek who acted similarly.

The same Stelek who used to brag about his tournament credentials? Same Stelek who made excuses when he lost to players of any real quality playing tough armies?

I never saw him blame his dice at least.


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Martel732 wrote:
Have you played against WK in context of an entire Eldar list? I'm assuming yes, so you know the answer to your own question.

I've played against one with my Genestealer Cults, who don't need no stinkin' guns to kill a Wraithknight (or anything else for that matter), and with my Sisters, who need AT to kill a Wraithknight. And have it. In spades. On two different unit types. Scatbikes and Warp Spiders are a bigger pest to mech Sisters than Wraithknights could ever hope to be.

Wraithknights are not overpowered. Your army is bad. That's the issue.

Dont know if OP, but, there is a nice little thing you can do in DA.

Run the Hammer of caliban formation with Azreal inside the LR with the techmarine and some servitors.

The LR now gets a 4+ invul save and the techmarine can repair it, makes it really hard to kill.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Dont know if OP, but, there is a nice little thing you can do in DA.

Run the Hammer of caliban formation with Azreal inside the LR with the techmarine and some servitors.

The LR now gets a 4+ invul save and the techmarine can repair it, makes it really hard to kill.

In the 6e book it was a bubble that applied to units within 6", so you could stick Azrael in an allied Valkyrie for an air wing with 4+ Invuls. Nowadays the only Flyer transports he can get in easily are Storm Eagles and Thunderhawks and the invul doesn't apply to other units, but a Thunderhawk with an Invulnerable save is still pretty brutal.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage...

The only cost-effective ways I know of to kill it (Skitarii Vanguard with a cast of Misfortune on the Wraithknight, Grav-Centurions, Wraithguard) are fairly OP themselves. Draigo comes close to doing it if he gets Hammerhand and Force off, in theory, and there are a few Greater Daemons that could make a good show of it.

Invisible Dread-knight is a pretty good way to kill a WK. If they are both invis? Monster slap.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Dont know if OP, but, there is a nice little thing you can do in DA.

Run the Hammer of caliban formation with Azreal inside the LR with the techmarine and some servitors.

The LR now gets a 4+ invul save and the techmarine can repair it, makes it really hard to kill.

In the 6e book it was a bubble that applied to units within 6", so you could stick Azrael in an allied Valkyrie for an air wing with 4+ Invuls. Nowadays the only Flyer transports he can get in easily are Storm Eagles and Thunderhawks and the invul doesn't apply to other units, but a Thunderhawk with an Invulnerable save is still pretty brutal.

You didn't even need Azrael. It was an equipment that gave it (Powerfield Generator), I'd throw it on a Librarian and run around with 3 Land Raiders. It was a ton of fun, but not very killy.

"Wraithknights are not overpowered. Your army is bad. That's the issue."

Are you trying to lose all credibility? And yes, BA are bad. But WK are bonkers against most lists. Oh, you have a valuable X? Well, it's dead now. From 36".

Martel732 wrote:
"Wraithknights are not overpowered. Your army is bad. That's the issue."

Are you trying to lose all credibility? And yes, BA are bad. But WK are bonkers against most lists. Oh, you have a valuable X? Well, it's dead now. From 36".

This, there is absolutely no way you can try and spin it to say WK are not overpowered. Thats like trying to argue that riptides are clearly balanced and warp spiders are fine. Like what.

@BBAP "WK aren't overpowered"

ROFL




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Martel732 wrote:
"Wraithknights are not overpowered. Your army is bad. That's the issue."

Are you trying to lose all credibility? And yes, BA are bad. But WK are bonkers against most lists. Oh, you have a valuable X? Well, it's dead now. From 36".

That's not even the most OP WK. Sword and board is infinitely more powerful. 5++ save and I5 D CC attacks.

 Xenomancers wrote:
@BBAP "WK aren't overpowered"

ROFL




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"Wraithknights are not overpowered. Your army is bad. That's the issue."

Are you trying to lose all credibility? And yes, BA are bad. But WK are bonkers against most lists. Oh, you have a valuable X? Well, it's dead now. From 36".

That's not even the most OP WK. Sword and board is infinitely more powerful. 5++ save and I5 D CC attacks.

I personally fear the ranged D more, but maybe because my armies are fast.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@BBAP "WK aren't overpowered"

ROFL




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"Wraithknights are not overpowered. Your army is bad. That's the issue."

Are you trying to lose all credibility? And yes, BA are bad. But WK are bonkers against most lists. Oh, you have a valuable X? Well, it's dead now. From 36".

That's not even the most OP WK. Sword and board is infinitely more powerful. 5++ save and I5 D CC attacks.

I personally fear the ranged D more, but maybe because my armies are fast.

The ranged D is nice if you want to...1 shot LR's and stuff. Everything competitive is sporting invis or a 2+ cover save though. So the Melle WK can deal with both with relative ease and is more durable to the insane firepower in this game. It allows you to roll on the eldar powers instead of fishing for invis - and the eldar powers are MUCH more helpful to your remaining units than the trash outside of PS and invis. Fortune a melle WK and its got 3 5+ saves. It kills a IK straight up before it can attack and practically anything else scary in CC.

Martel732 wrote:
"Wraithknights are not overpowered. Your army is bad. That's the issue."

Are you trying to lose all credibility? And yes, BA are bad. But WK are bonkers against most lists.

Yeah - the bad ones.

Know how I killed the Wraithknight with my GSC? I ran a bunch of Neophytes into it. Sat a Patriarch in a building 10" away and just charged them suckers on in there.

"But BBAP, you fool!", the internet cried, "Neophytes can't hurt a Wraithknight!" No, but there were 10 of them. It killed them in its own turn, then was punched to death by Claw-Morphs. I think I lost 3 units of Claw-Morphs to it in total, but I have like 12 of them so who cares.

Meltagunned it to death with my Sisters. Can't remember if it was a Meltagun or an MM Immolator turret that finally took it down, but it died. It didn't even do much damage, as I recall - the Scatbikes and Warp Spiders were pretty brutal though.

Oh, you have a valuable X?

There's your problem right there. So what if it can take out a deathstar from 36"? Don't build deathstars, and if you do, make sure they're Invisible. Against any other army the Wraithcannon is just another shooting attack.

I understand that logic. They're both undercosted for sure.


BBAP: if the WK wasn't so insanely difficult to kill, you could have been meltagunned jetbikers and warp spiders instead. The WK's defenses and price tag are automatically incredibly OP because you can't just let it run around and do what it wants.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage...

The only cost-effective ways I know of to kill it (Skitarii Vanguard with a cast of Misfortune on the Wraithknight, Grav-Centurions, Wraithguard) are fairly OP themselves. Draigo comes close to doing it if he gets Hammerhand and Force off, in theory, and there are a few Greater Daemons that could make a good show of it.

Invisible Dread-knight is a pretty good way to kill a WK. If they are both invis? Monster slap.

It has occurred to me to notice that two teleport-pack Dreadknights aren't too far above the Wraithknight's cost. And since D just inflicts Instant Death as if it were S10 the Dreadknights only (heh, 'only') take d3 wounds from it if it doesn't roll a 6, point two at it and they might win even without Invisibility. (Quick math says on average rolls and without charges the Dreadknights kill the Wraithknight in two assault phases, and it kills one of them before going down)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In my search for funny things to do with mixed-faction units I did run across the Sacred Banner of the Order Militant, which gives +1A to all friendly units (period) within 12", and it doesn't specify that it doesn't work when embarked. Hide a command squad in a tank and follow Conscript mobs around watching them dump hundreds of attacks into the opposition.

Things have to be specified to work from while embarked, not specified to not work while embarked. The reasoning is that you need to measure to a model, and that model can't be measured to whilst embarked.

So in your case, the banner would do nothing while embarked, since you can't measure to it.

 BBAP wrote:

Oh, you have a valuable X?

There's your problem right there. So what if it can take out a deathstar from 36"? Don't build deathstars, and if you do, make sure they're Invisible. Against any other army the Wraithcannon is just another shooting attack.

Even in the Eldar Codex the Wraithcannon is usually 'just another shooting attack'. If you aren't fighting tough MCs/GCs the sword loadout and the Skathach (2x S7/AP4 Monofilament/Shred Hellstorms or 7" blasts, or 2d3+4 36"-range meltaguns) are just better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In my search for funny things to do with mixed-faction units I did run across the Sacred Banner of the Order Militant, which gives +1A to all friendly units (period) within 12", and it doesn't specify that it doesn't work when embarked. Hide a command squad in a tank and follow Conscript mobs around watching them dump hundreds of attacks into the opposition.

Things have to be specified to work from while embarked, not specified to not work while embarked. The reasoning is that you need to measure to a model, and that model can't be measured to whilst embarked.

So in your case, the banner would do nothing while embarked, since you can't measure to it.

Mini-rulebook p. 80, 'Embarking', 1st paragraph. "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for it's shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

In practice this means that a lot of auras and Warlord Traits keep working when embarked, but since you can't draw line of sight to them you can't target them with things.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Mini-rulebook p. 80, 'Embarking', 1st paragraph. "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for it's shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

In practice this means that a lot of auras and Warlord Traits keep working when embarked, but since you can't draw line of sight to them you can't target them with things.

The new FAQs removed that.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Mini-rulebook p. 80, 'Embarking', 1st paragraph. "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for it's shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

In practice this means that a lot of auras and Warlord Traits keep working when embarked, but since you can't draw line of sight to them you can't target them with things.

The new FAQs removed that.

The new FAQs are still a draft; most of the people I play with still cherry-pick which bits to use and which to ignore. I don't want to get in a RAW/RAI argument, so I will add to the banner "Depending on your local rulings your Command Squad may have to walk."

Martel732 wrote:
BBAP: if the WK wasn't so insanely difficult to kill, you could have been meltagunned jetbikers and warp spiders instead.

Who says I wasn't?

For reference, my mech Sisters at 1500pts:

- Canoness
- 6x5 Sisters, 2 Meltaguns, MM Immolator
- 2x5 Dominions, 3 Meltaguns, MM Immolator
- 2x5 Retributors, 2 Heavy Flamers, MM Immolator

No extraneous crap, no deathstars, no nothing. Just loads of death in a box. It's not as great as it once was thanks to Hull Points and WS1 against CC, but it's not the auto-lose I thought it'd be when I was coming back into 7th. Also, before Codex: Witch Hunters got Warded, four of the Immos used to have TLHF turrets. I changed them over when the WD Codex was released (2011, I think?), so this isn't "tailored" or whatever - it's just what I run.

Inb4 "But but muh S6!" - I hear you. Believe me, I do. Loud and clear. It's vile filth, especially on highly mobile platforms, and more especially when all you have is mech infantry whose max shooting range is 30" - but that's why you take loads of units, especially if you're running an AV11 T3 army. If you don't, you deny yourself board presence and make it even more difficult to corner the bugger, and can quickly lose so much stuff that it's impossible to make a dent on the game.

**********The fact they can put a hurt on my Sisters does NOT mean Spiders or Scatbikes are OP. It means my Sisters aren't optimised for 7th. I doubt they could be when run as a pure army, which is annoying as all-hell, but I choose to do that because I like playing them. It's MY choice to run a polished turd. No OP.**********

My GSC build has much, much less trouble dealing with Eldar, largely because it's a 7th Edition Codex written with the 7th Ed mechanics in mind. There's "mobility" out the wazoo, there's redundancy absolutely everywhere, including in my HQ slots, there's Summons, there's all kinds of mad stuff. Killed seven units of Claw-Morphs? Great - here's five more plus 40 Acolytes! And my Patriarch is sitting in a bush over there (with 13 wounds, because he auto-passes LoS) and there's a Primus nearby too, so they all have Fearless and Hatred! It's such an awesome Codex. Whether it's a hard counter to top-quality players playing hard-as-nails Eldar GT lists remains to be seen, but I reckon it can hang comfortably with them. It **feels** like a competitive book, and I think it'll prove to be one when top-level players start using it.

Wonder how long it'll be before we start hearing complaints that Cult Ambush and Claw-Morph spam is "OP"? "Dey killed muh Sanguinor pls nerf gw kthx".



Ultimately though... whatever. It's **your** hobby. You play the way you want to play. If you want to build an army entirely for "hobby" reasons, or just because it's fun to play, do it. Do it now. We need more of that. If you want to bring a deathstar with a single ML2 psyker to roll on Telepathy, or three Land Raiders, or Uriah Heep's Hammer of the Noobs, it's your dime. Recognise, though, that playing competitive 40k like the **real** big boys do means building an army that can hang in the current Edition's meta, that choosing to play fluffy or run sub-optimal gak represents a conscious refusal to do such - and thus you don't get to complain that stuff is "OP" because it can tool down whatever sub-optimal army you want to run.

And never forget who advised you to run this stuff by telling you it was "good".

Azrael for Dark Angels is honestly extremely OP for a more casual meta. For tournaments?

I owned 4 Land Speeder Typhoons - fairly OP but not worth the $100 price tag.

 Wolfblade wrote:

No, I assume you're at some point wanting to charge with them, which involves disembarking from that fragile metal box they would otherwise ride around in. It's not hard to pop a rhino.

Clipped for brevity because this was pretty much your point.

Here is my counter point: which rhino? What you're essentially positing here is that the enemy is hell bent on making a statement about my unit. Lol. I don't think they will be. Killing the Repentias doesn't kill the assassins. Doesn't kill the Exorcist, doesn't kill the Dominion, doesnt kill my scoring units. What that leaves us with is a question. If I jump out in round 2, and move up behind yet another rhino... and the enemy now has no room for escape... and there at the aforementioned rhinos left... What will happen next?

It seems to me that your scenario would require them not to value these other things more... and it would require them to be able to fire at all...and it would requie ME not to throw one of my tattered units under the bus and just let them take the overwatch first.

That seems like an awful lot of things that have to be true for this over simplified death sentence to occur. Could it? Yes. Would it hyurt my chances of victory? Not so much. So I just think you're coming up with this perfect scenario to illustrate how it might be done. But you and I can readily agree that it can be. Dark elder/Eldar proved that! No one else, on the other hand, could. And WHEN I do my damage isn't as important as THAT I do my damage. so I don't think it matters much whether I spend the last three turns as a blender in your backfield... or the first three. it almost seems as if you are of the opinion that if its not able to "jump" the enemy like Skyhammer can, its not creating enough of an opportunity. I would suggest respectfully to you that you should assume in this thread that whatever unit people are suggesting is OP is being run by a general who is using his force to allow that opportunity to happen. for if you assume the opposite, its arguing in poor faith. That's my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stevefamine wrote:
Azrael for Dark Angels is honestly extremely OP for a more casual meta. For tournaments?

I owned 4 Land Speeder Typhoons - fairly OP but not worth the $100 price tag.

Maybe but does the price tag come into the discussion?

"*The fact they can put a hurt on my Sisters does NOT mean Spiders or Scatbikes are OP."

That's not the metric for OP in any objective sense. The scatterbike is too cheap for what it does in 7th ed. Grossly. That necessarily makes it OP. Does OP units mean an autowin? Absolutely not. But it skews the chances heavily in that person's favor.

" means building an army that can hang in the current Edition's meta"

I am not a fluff player. I simply content that no such build exists for BA. And the scatterbike and WK are two reasons why no such build exists. If BA game for WK and scatterbikes, those list types have a tendency to autolose to Tau and SW. And so on and so forth.

"Wonder how long it'll be before we start hearing complaints that Cult Ambush and Claw-Morph spam is "OP"? "Dey killed muh Sanguinor pls nerf gw kthx". "

You obviously don't know me, as I denounce the Sanguinor as unplayable trash. Par for the course in that codex, though.

"Just loads of death in a box."

I'm not impressed with your death compared to Eldar or Tau death. Especially because you have to get close. There's nothing quite like losing from 36" away and inflicting nothing meaningful in return.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

No, I assume you're at some point wanting to charge with them, which involves disembarking from that fragile metal box they would otherwise ride around in. It's not hard to pop a rhino.

Clipped for brevity because this was pretty much your point.

Here is my counter point: which rhino? What you're essentially positing here is that the enemy is hell bent on making a statement about my unit. Lol. I don't think they will be. Killing the Repentias doesn't kill the assassins. Doesn't kill the Exorcist, doesn't kill the Dominion, doesnt kill my scoring units. What that leaves us with is a question. If I jump out in round 2, and move up behind yet another rhino... and the enemy now has no room for escape... and there at the aforementioned rhinos left... What will happen next?

It seems to me that your scenario would require them not to value these other things more... and it would require them to be able to fire at all...and it would requie ME not to throw one of my tattered units under the bus and just let them take the overwatch first.

That seems like an awful lot of things that have to be true for this over simplified death sentence to occur. Could it? Yes. Would it hyurt my chances of victory? Not so much. So I just think you're coming up with this perfect scenario to illustrate how it might be done. But you and I can readily agree that it can be. Dark elder/Eldar proved that! No one else, on the other hand, could. And WHEN I do my damage isn't as important as THAT I do my damage. so I don't think it matters much whether I spend the last three turns as a blender in your backfield... or the first three. it almost seems as if you are of the opinion that if its not able to "jump" the enemy like Skyhammer can, its not creating enough of an opportunity. I would suggest respectfully to you that you should assume in this thread that whatever unit people are suggesting is OP is being run by a general who is using his force to allow that opportunity to happen. for if you assume the opposite, its arguing in poor faith. That's my opinion.

See, you're assuming the enemy general will let that happen. Popping a couple of rhinos isn't very hard, especially over a couple of turns. And looking back at your bat reps, in most of those the enemy essentially handed your Reps chances to do damage (I.e. spawnstar wasting themselves on the rhino, I'm assuming meganobs popped the rhinos for you). That's not creating an opportunity, that's simply capitalizing on a mistake your enemy made. They can do damage, but only if your opponent let's them/feeds themselves into the Reps (I. E. Spawnstar, orks). Any kind of shooting that gets sent their way pretty much nullifies them. (And assuming your enemy can't create a chance to shoot at them would be arguing in poor faith wouldn't it?).

And, as you've said, the firewarriors are not the entire army. there's the rest of the army out there to start picking your stuff apart (i.e. the rest of the broadside squads, riptides, crisis suits, stormsurges, etc)