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 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

No, I assume you're at some point wanting to charge with them, which involves disembarking from that fragile metal box they would otherwise ride around in. It's not hard to pop a rhino.

Clipped for brevity because this was pretty much your point.

Here is my counter point: which rhino? What you're essentially positing here is that the enemy is hell bent on making a statement about my unit. Lol. I don't think they will be. Killing the Repentias doesn't kill the assassins. Doesn't kill the Exorcist, doesn't kill the Dominion, doesnt kill my scoring units. What that leaves us with is a question. If I jump out in round 2, and move up behind yet another rhino... and the enemy now has no room for escape... and there at the aforementioned rhinos left... What will happen next?

It seems to me that your scenario would require them not to value these other things more... and it would require them to be able to fire at all...and it would requie ME not to throw one of my tattered units under the bus and just let them take the overwatch first.

That seems like an awful lot of things that have to be true for this over simplified death sentence to occur. Could it? Yes. Would it hyurt my chances of victory? Not so much. So I just think you're coming up with this perfect scenario to illustrate how it might be done. But you and I can readily agree that it can be. Dark elder/Eldar proved that! No one else, on the other hand, could. And WHEN I do my damage isn't as important as THAT I do my damage. so I don't think it matters much whether I spend the last three turns as a blender in your backfield... or the first three. it almost seems as if you are of the opinion that if its not able to "jump" the enemy like Skyhammer can, its not creating enough of an opportunity. I would suggest respectfully to you that you should assume in this thread that whatever unit people are suggesting is OP is being run by a general who is using his force to allow that opportunity to happen. for if you assume the opposite, its arguing in poor faith. That's my opinion.

See, you're assuming the enemy general will let that happen. Popping a couple of rhinos isn't very hard, especially over a couple of turns. And looking back at your bat reps, most of those the enemy essentially handed your Reps chances to do damage (I.e. spawnstar wasting themselves on the rhino). That's not creating an opportunity, that's simply capitalizing on a mistake your enemy made. They can do damage, but only if your opponent let's them/feeds themselves into the Reps (I. E. Spawnstar, orks). Any kind of shooting that gets sent their way pretty much nullifies them. (And assuming your enemy can't create a chance to shoot at them would be arguing in poor faith wouldn't it?)

I honestly don't understand how to reconcile this issue. Obviously Jancoran wins. However, I honestly like my chances against his lists more than much of the crap I play against on a monthly basis. Getting a turn 5 is novel for me because Xeno guns are good. And Imperial guns are fething terrible. Even with drop pods, deep strike, fast tanks, take your pick. I can't put enough models on the table to survive. For all the gushing over drop pods, I've found them to be a one-way ticket to death more often than not.

 Wolfblade wrote:


See, you're assuming the enemy general will let that happen. Popping a couple of rhinos isn't very hard, especially over a couple of turns. And looking back at your bat reps, in most of those the enemy essentially handed your Reps chances to do damage (I.e. spawnstar wasting themselves on the rhino, I'm assuming meganobs popped the rhinos for you). That's not creating an opportunity, that's simply capitalizing on a mistake your enemy made. They can do damage, but only if your opponent let's them/feeds themselves into the Reps (I. E. Spawnstar, orks). Any kind of shooting that gets sent their way pretty much nullifies them. (And assuming your enemy can't create a chance to shoot at them would be arguing in poor faith wouldn't it?).)

And, as you've said, the firewarriors are not the entire army. there's the rest of the army out there to start picking your stuff apart (i.e. the rest of the broadside squads, riptides, crisis suits, stormsurges, etc

"Popping a couple rhinos isn't hard" is what you say. I agree that a Rhino will go down. So we agree. What we don't agree on is how many units the enemy will realistically have available to try. We don't agree on that. Range matters when it comes to anti tank. So do you think they will try to use that firepower there? We don't know because there's no board, no terrain and no army list to even consider the question. So while you are always going to be right when you say they CAN be popped, you're not right in saying they will be. Also: Dominion. Also: Exorcists. Also: Assassins. So priority. I think the statement that its not difficult isn't enough.

No opponent is going to "let" repentias do anything. So I think again, if you're being fair minded about it you have to realize that it is not always a choice. think of it like this: many armies have very effective assault elements, as I mentioned before. Those kinds of elements don't have much choice but to approach if they want to do what they are good at. GeneStealer Cults, Wulfen, Skyhammers, Blood Angels and the list goes on. So it isn't as if a "good player" always has a choice. In addition, consider that when its a far more "shooty" army, there are ELITE shooty armies that can only fire on so many targets and less impressive but more numerous shooty units that are less of a cause for panic. So I will never dispute your basic premise that a certain number of rhinos can be downed. I don't think we entirely agree on which ones those would have to be given all the variables I just mentioned. And when that many things have to be "perfect" for your hypothesis to be true I start looking over at my buddy Occam and wondering if maybe there isn't a more true version of this that we could be talking about.

I just re-installed VASSAL last night so I will try and have a little fun with it. I play against a lot of hard generals so I should have ample exampls to kind of represent and maybe I'll start with Martel's favorite: Eldar!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

I honestly don't understand how to reconcile this issue. Obviously Jancoran wins. However, I honestly like my chances against his lists more than much of the crap I play against on a monthly basis. Getting a turn 5 is novel for me because Xeno guns are good. And Imperial guns are fething terrible. Even with drop pods, deep strike, fast tanks, take your pick. I can't put enough models on the table to survive. For all the gushing over drop pods, I've found them to be a one-way ticket to death more often than not.

Pods are okay, but I think that they do more for some forces than others. Wulfen for example can really benefit a lot from them. So tough and so horrifically good in combat, they love the chance to bounce on over and say hello.

Other armies aren't such good matches. I think the army matters a lot. I think its probably not a quality of pos in general to make an army "good" but their utility cannot be denied when it comes to certain units. Usually the tougher ones, like Wulfen.

I understand the idea of working rhinos up the board. How do you think i ever get close enough to lose my survivors to assaulting riptides? Tau >> ba in the assault phase lol.

I get why BBAP's list makes sense, and he admits that the army itself isn't optimal for 7th due to the assorted issues that plague light mech in 7th. That said, I see "how" it works, how it's no-nonsense (that's still 56 PA bodies and 11 AV 11 hulls at 1500), and looks incredibly "no nonsense". With Strategic, he gets a shot at Stealth/MTC for Ruins or Infiltrate for 3 units (alongside 3 Scouting units) and he's already further up the board than the 30" would hint at.

Definitely less of a gimmick compared to a giant Repentia-star.

 BBAP wrote:

"Get a helmet, snowflake"?

The same Stelek who used to brag about his tournament credentials? .

My point is made manifest.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not the metric for OP in any objective sense. The scatterbike is too cheap for what it does in 7th ed. Grossly. That necessarily makes it OP. Does OP units mean an autowin? Absolutely not. But it skews the chances heavily in that person's favor.

What iteration of the unit is cheap? The one with three Scatbikes in it? I mean... It's three dudes. How much do you want people to pay for three dudes? Scatterlasers are nasty pieces of kit, sure, but it's still three dudes.

" means building an army that can hang in the current Edition's meta"

I am not a fluff player. I simply content that no such build exists for BA.

So your Codex sucks. Welcome to (one half of) my world. Scatbikes and Warp Spiders are not OP because your Codex sucks.

And the scatterbike and WK are two reasons why no such build exists. If BA game for WK and scatterbikes, those list types have a tendency to autolose to Tau and SW. And so on and so forth.

The Eldar Codex is not the reason no such build exists for BA. The BA Codex is the reason for that.

"Just loads of death in a box."

I'm not impressed with your death compared to Eldar or Tau death.

Yeah, I said. It's not the rubber mallet it used to be, largely due to the fact vehicles suck now, but I enjoy it. It's also perfectly capable of giving some folks a bad time. It'd give my GSC a game, I think;. Plus it's Sisters. They were my second army after Daemonhunters. There's a sentimental attachment.

Especially because you have to get close.

I don't get max volume of fire unless I start within 18" of a unit when footslogging, but I can plink with bolters out to 30-odd inches. Add 4-ish inches to that if the unit starts in a transport - or 6 inches exactly if you want to cheat. The best way to kill anything is to make it roll saves, and with BS4 S4 weapons, I can make Scatbikes and Spiders roll saves, generally enough to shave a dude or two out of a unit every turn. I also have units, like, all over the table.

There's nothing quite like losing from 36" away and inflicting nothing meaningful in return.

Are you... did you just read the maximum ranges of the weapons and try to guesstimate how the game went from there? That's not how it works, brah.

 Jancoran wrote:
My point is made manifest.

You haven't had a "point" for three pages, since you got all salty because I refused to acknolwedge your losses as an achievement and called your dishonesty what it is.

If you want to talk more about Father Uriah's Hammer of Noobs, fine - start by actually addressing any of the issues I've raised that you've ignored so far. Otherwise, go away.


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 MagicJuggler wrote:
With Strategic, he gets a shot at Stealth/MTC for Ruins or Infiltrate for 3 units

Wait, what?! Why didn't you tell me this before I rolled on the Sororitas Warlord table and got "causes Fear"?!

One point, made a while back, that I want to address is Demolishers making Groteques obsolete by IDing them. That's just not true. Grotesques are T6 or T7 (I think T7) and so are not doubled-out by ANYTHING.

Edit: Ignore that noise, I was thinking of the Pain Engines.

Grotesques are T5, so Demolisher Cannons do cause Instant Death to them.

You're thinking of Talos and Chronos Pain Engines, which are both T7.

 JNAProductions wrote:
One point, made a while back, that I want to address is Demolishers making Groteques obsolete by IDing them. That's just not true. Grotesques are T6 or T7 (I think T7) and so are not doubled-out by ANYTHING.

I made that point. and they are T5 my friend. Sorry to burst the bubble but...there it is.

Ah, I am! I'll edit my earlier post.

 BBAP wrote:


You haven't had a "point" for three pages, since you got all salty because I refused to acknolwedge your losses as an achievement and called your dishonesty what it is.

If you want to talk more about Father Uriah's Hammer of Noobs, fine - start by actually addressing any of the issues I've raised that you've ignored so far. Otherwise, go away.
!

Ah. you thought your acknowledgment was what I wanted? I see where you went sideways. You do what you will with the information I gave you. What difference does it make to me, now that I think about it? if you reject the suggestion that Sisters Repentia are powerful but overlooked...you make my point stronger with each post. =)

The three scatbikes cost way less than they should. So those three dudes are far too cheap for their capabilities and therefore OP. They are point and click to the extreme. It doesn't matter how gakky ba are.

Lasguns.

No I'm not joking.

It's the perfect infantry weapon. No points are wasted on shenanigans like AP or high strength or fancy rules. It's just a cheap bog standard weapon that lets your guardsmen be dirt cheap. Think about how many times you've actually used your precious AP on weapons like Bolters or Pulse rifles. Usually the target is in cover anyways and it doesn't matter.

With lasguns, it's no big deal what save the enemy has because nothing he does can make it worse, especially for tougher armies. Whoop de Doo, your space marine is in cover, I'm still going to FRFSRF and kill you all the same. It just makes lasguns brutally efficient because they're consistent. Then you get access to tons of special weapons because your main infantry is so cheap, and access to a wide variety of orders to buff your lasguns, special weapons, or even both, as the situation requires. Because who cares if my lasguns don't get to shoot this turn because a vehicle needs to die, theyre lasguns. It's not like I paid points for them like a marine with a bolter does.

And on top of THAT, lasguns still do a ton of work, especially in the age of MC's, because models are T6 or less, which means they can still contribute. This isn't 5th ed, metal boxes edition, this is 7th, the land where vehicles dont show up much and you can kill riptides by shining laser pointers into their optics.

Finally, nobody ever seems to expect lasguns to kill things. Despite all the memes and jokes, people will still charge models headlong into lasgun volleys and then get surprised when they get mowed down.

Lasguns sucking is a blessing in disguise. Because that very suck factor is what allows the IG to just brutally mathhmer you to death. Add in orders, pysker shenanigans, and formation buffs, along with sheer weight of numbers, and usually lasguns contribute a decent chunk of wounds in and of themselves in any battle that doesn't involve nothing but knight titans.

 Jancoran wrote:
Ah. you thought your acknowledgment was what I wanted?

It's what you asked for. Three pages ago.

 Jancoran wrote:
I assume the credentials of some of my opponents assuages your doubts otherwise

... at the same time you were whining about "bad dice". If that's not a desperate cry for validation I don't know what is. You don't get a cookie for failing, especially not when the whole point of you dragging that into the conversation in the first place was to prove the unit had some competitive merit. "Look at me, I won a tournament 5-0 with this unit!" A tournament full of hobbyists. When you played the ranked dudes, you lost.

What conclusion is anyone supposed to draw from that?

What difference does it make to me, now that I think about it?

"S-stupid BBAP, it's n-not like I'm getting all whiny and prickled over YOU or anything..."

So tsun-tsun. Don't go dere-dere on me or I'll call the mods.

if you reject the suggestion that Sisters Repentia are powerful but overlooked...you make my point stronger with each post. =)

I reject the suggestion that they have power - they're overlooked for a reason. They kill things in close combat. So what? They'll never get there unless your opponent allows it. You've yet to demonstrate why this is not the case - whenever you're asked to, you either waffle, hand-wave, or half-lie, then get all salty and whiny.

Tell you what - when I want advice on how to take suck units and lose against ITC-ranked players, or how to lie by omission and then get salty-soup when someone calls me out on it, I'll give you a call. Your credentials in that department are flawless. Otherwise, go away. This is getting old now.

 BBAP wrote:

What difference does it make to me, now that I think about it?

"S-stupid BBAP, it's n-not like I'm getting all whiny and prickled over YOU or anything..."

So tsun-tsun. Don't go dere-dere on me or I'll call the mods.

If you two don't calm down I'm going to call the mods.

BBAP, Jancoran, cool it already. If you can't discuss it like mature individuals then have a break from the keyboard. Remember, you're talking about a hobby.

Can I nominate Scarabs? Those sons of guns can kill Knights (and anything else, thanks to Entropic Strike). It only takes two squads of 8 (320 points) to one-turn kill a Knight on the charge.

Martel732 wrote:
The three scatbikes cost way less than they should.

No they don't. You kill one Bike, the unit needs a Morale check.

"Yeah but it's not gonna fail on Ld8 ZOMGOP!!" - He needs an 8 or less on 2D6. That's the same chance as you have of missing with a BS4 to-hit roll. Think how often you do that - seems like a lot, doesn't it? Yeah - that's because you're generally rolling an awful lot of to-hit dice with your shooting. You hit more than you miss, but you **do** miss. Make him roll those Morale checks and he'll fail one eventually. When he does, it's 3D6 Fall back, and if he's hiding in the corner then 3D6 takes out his bike unit. If he's **not** hiding in the corner, which he probably isn't considering LoS-blocking terrain is a thing and my poor dead Immolators are scattered across the field, then his unit is Snap Shooting until it Regroups and is moving 3" max even when it does.

If he **doesn't** fail Morale, you've dropped his firepower by 4 shots per turn by taking out that one Bike, and can try again next turn.

If you do it with an Immolator's Multimelta he either Jinks, or he most likely loses a bike. Either way is fine by me. You don't need to wipe out a unit to reduce its threat, and when you have three dudes the unit becomes much easier to pacify. It's exactly how people used to deal with my Long Fangs in 5th Ed, except they had an ablative wound to turf before you got to the business end of the squad so a single dead dude wasn't enough to shut them up.

"Yeah but it's really hard to kill one Bike!!!" - I don't disagree, but the chance to do it is always there, and if your army doesn't allow you the opportunity to try then your army is the problem, not OP Scatbikes.


Note that this is not a tactica. It's not me saying "lol nabs look how easy scatbikes are lol nabs", because Scatbikes are **not** easy to deal with - they're a really, really nasty unit capable of doing serious damage to light mech and infantry. The point of this is to help people see Scatbikes as I see them (three MEQs) instead of how the internet sees them (Godzilla on a jetbike). They're not OP or undercosted - they're just a really good unit.

 BBAP wrote:
...They're not OP or undercosted - they're just a really good unit.

...

...

...Okay, I'm going to take the bait. What unit would you call OP or undercosted?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Can I nominate Scarabs? Those sons of guns can kill Knights (and anything else, thanks to Entropic Strike). It only takes two squads of 8 (320 points) to one-turn kill a Knight on the charge.

Spoiler:

That's 80 attacks on the charge, minus 10 for 2 bases dying to the Knight's attacks. So that's 70 attacks, hitting on 4s (35) glancing on 6s (5.83 repeating). Goodbye Knight!

I love scarabs! I always try to swarm Land Raiders.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Okay, I'm going to take the bait. What unit would you call OP or undercosted?

I don't think any units are, off the top of my head. Scatbikes would be if they were in the Spice Maroon Codex, but for a unit in their slot in Codex: Craftworlds they're priced about right.

If you think they should cost more, tell me - what should Eldar players be forced to ditch in exchange for their Scatbikes?

 BBAP wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Okay, I'm going to take the bait. What unit would you call OP or undercosted?

I don't think any units are, off the top of my head. Scatbikes would be if they were in the Spice Maroon Codex, but for a unit in their slot in Codex: Craftworlds they're priced about right.

If you think they should cost more, tell me - what should Eldar players be forced to ditch in exchange for their Scatbikes?

They're troops. That's the easiest to spam slot.

And a reasonable suggestion I've heard bandied about is that Scatterlasers should be either:
a) 15 Points
b) 1 in 3 model upgrade
c) both a and b

As for swarming Land Raiders, you would need 7 Scarabs to kill one on the charge in one turn, usually.

I always had a spider behind making more. But usually I get a glance or 2 with gauss before the scarabs can reach it.

Really good unit = undercosted more than likely. They are a no-brainer auto-take. That's OP and undercosted.

For a unit to be properly costed, there has to be some debate as to whether it goes in a list or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Okay, I'm going to take the bait. What unit would you call OP or undercosted?

I don't think any units are, off the top of my head. Scatbikes would be if they were in the Spice Maroon Codex, but for a unit in their slot in Codex: Craftworlds they're priced about right.

If you think they should cost more, tell me - what should Eldar players be forced to ditch in exchange for their Scatbikes?

They should just be fielding smaller, more fragile lists. High firepower is fine. But not high firepower and extreme durability and extreme psykers all the same list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Okay, I'm going to take the bait. What unit would you call OP or undercosted?

I don't think any units are, off the top of my head. Scatbikes would be if they were in the Spice Maroon Codex, but for a unit in their slot in Codex: Craftworlds they're priced about right.

If you think they should cost more, tell me - what should Eldar players be forced to ditch in exchange for their Scatbikes?

They're troops. That's the easiest to spam slot.

And a reasonable suggestion I've heard bandied about is that Scatterlasers should be either:
a) 15 Points
b) 1 in 3 model upgrade
c) both a and b

As for swarming Land Raiders, you would need 7 Scarabs to kill one on the charge in one turn, usually.

Spoiler:

10/3 hits per base, 10/18=5/9 glances per base, and we need 36/9. So about 7 bases should do it.

Or 20 pts, because they are better than assault cannons.

I guess the moral of this thread is that OP is subjective, not just in regards to what *is* OP, but what OP *is*. By which I mean the benchmark for the definition OP is subjective.

Is OP a unit that auto-wins, is it OP because it throws players off, or is it just a hyper-aggressively costed? It looks like the clashes are coming from these three camps colliding with one another.

 JNAProductions wrote:
One point, made a while back, that I want to address is Demolishers making Groteques obsolete by IDing them.

Is there anyone respectable that doesn't already think Grotesques are awesome though? They're pretty amazing and I hadn't considered them for this particular thread.

 BBAP wrote:
They kill things in close combat. So what? They'll never get there unless your opponent allows it. You've yet to demonstrate why this is not the case

It's not very complicated, he uses Rhinos as LOS screening.

You aren't completely on the mark either with your take on Scatterbikes, either. Rather than taking fire and failing LD checks against a clear threat, they should be reserved. Which is why in top-table Eldar matches, the player who goes 2nd has a big advantage (though ITC's scoring also plays a part).

 Jancoran wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:


See, you're assuming the enemy general will let that happen. Popping a couple of rhinos isn't very hard, especially over a couple of turns. And looking back at your bat reps, in most of those the enemy essentially handed your Reps chances to do damage (I.e. spawnstar wasting themselves on the rhino, I'm assuming meganobs popped the rhinos for you). That's not creating an opportunity, that's simply capitalizing on a mistake your enemy made. They can do damage, but only if your opponent let's them/feeds themselves into the Reps (I. E. Spawnstar, orks). Any kind of shooting that gets sent their way pretty much nullifies them. (And assuming your enemy can't create a chance to shoot at them would be arguing in poor faith wouldn't it?).)

And, as you've said, the firewarriors are not the entire army. there's the rest of the army out there to start picking your stuff apart (i.e. the rest of the broadside squads, riptides, crisis suits, stormsurges, etc

"Popping a couple rhinos isn't hard" is what you say. I agree that a Rhino will go down. So we agree. What we don't agree on is how many units the enemy will realistically have available to try. We don't agree on that. Range matters when it comes to anti tank. So do you think they will try to use that firepower there? We don't know because there's no board, no terrain and no army list to even consider the question. So while you are always going to be right when you say they CAN be popped, you're not right in saying they will be. Also: Dominion. Also: Exorcists. Also: Assassins. So priority. I think the statement that its not difficult isn't enough.

2 broadsides on average will deal 3hp of damage to AV11 (8 shots, 6 hits, 4+ for a glance or pen obviously). That's very little firepower required to deal with a rhino chassis or two, and still be able to deal with the rest of the things you mentioned.

 Jancoran wrote:

No opponent is going to "let" repentias do anything. So I think again, if you're being fair minded about it you have to realize that it is not always a choice. think of it like this: many armies have very effective assault elements, as I mentioned before. Those kinds of elements don't have much choice but to approach if they want to do what they are good at. GeneStealer Cults, Wulfen, Skyhammers, Blood Angels and the list goes on. So it isn't as if a "good player" always has a choice. In addition, consider that when its a far more "shooty" army, there are ELITE shooty armies that can only fire on so many targets and less impressive but more numerous shooty units that are less of a cause for panic. So I will never dispute your basic premise that a certain number of rhinos can be downed. I don't think we entirely agree on which ones those would have to be given all the variables I just mentioned. And when that many things have to be "perfect" for your hypothesis to be true I start looking over at my buddy Occam and wondering if maybe there isn't a more true version of this that we could be talking about.

Your opponents did. Chaos walked spawnstar into their rhino, thereby letting the reps charge them. Ork player basically walked his meganobs into them, letting them get the charge, Your DE/E opponent did not. Your Gladius opponent more or less didn't care becaus ehe had so many units everywhere. Your 5 flyrant opponent didn't care much if they were picking off the spores because they're dirt cheap units that distracted you. The only time you won was against unranked players, while the ranked players (SM gladius and 5 flyrant) planned around either avoiding them, or feeding them cheap units to waste their time.

Martel732 wrote:
The three scatbikes cost way less than they should. So those three dudes are far too cheap for their capabilities and therefore OP. They are point and click to the extreme. It doesn't matter how gakky ba are.

Your Blood Angels can shut them up now, so i mean...

Wolfblade 707431 9025693 wrote:
2 broadsides on average will deal 3hp of damage to AV11 (8 shots, 6 hits, 4+ for a glance or pen obviously). That's very little firepower required to deal with a rhino chassis or two, and still be able to deal with the rest of the things you mentioned.
.

Same kind of argument. But it assumes the primary threat to the Rhinos isnt already shot dead.

If I have Grotequques, what do my scourges kill first? STR 10 weapons. If I am playing with Orks, what might I be likely to kill first? Things that kill my hordes and disallow them from being clumped up and smashy.

So here again... we agreed. We agreed that you CAN. We just aren't necessarily agreeing that you will.


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 Wolfblade wrote:

The only time you won was against unranked players, while the ranked players (SM gladius and 5 flyrant) planned around either avoiding them, or feeding them cheap units to waste their time.

What are you talking about. They were all ranked players. So am I.

What I told you was that the ones I lost to were in the top 1%. I really...really...have a hard time seeing how losing to them is any statement about the Sisters Repentia. Either one would warn you against underestimating it. It's a big reason why i was able to have a chance in the losses. Obviously the 3 1's was just plain bad luck.That said nothing about them either.

If you want to talk about the unit fine. But attacking the opponents is stupid. Especially at our level. Give me a break.

Martel732 wrote:
Really good unit = undercosted more than likely. They are a no-brainer auto-take. That's OP and undercosted.

For a unit to be properly costed, there has to be some debate as to whether it goes in a list or not.

You could make Storm Guardians 1pt per model and people **still** wouldn't take them over Scatbikes in their CADs. Or maybe they would, because they'd be able to spam Warp Spiders harder, and that seems to be what the GT winning lists are chiefly composed of. Even then, Scatbikes would still be a reasonable alternative.

Drop the Scatbikes into the Spice Maroon Codex. Tell me how auto-include they are there.

... yeah. It's not just a question of "cost". It's a question of options, and of what kind of army you want to build.

They should just be fielding smaller, more fragile lists. High firepower is fine. But not high firepower and extreme durability and extreme psykers all the same list.

..."Extreme durability"? It's ***three dudes****! Three! It's extremely durable because you can't/ won't take the tools you need to reach out and touch them.

 JNAProductions wrote:
They're troops. That's the easiest to spam slot.

And the only one with access to ObSec outside the Spice Maroon Codex, and every point you spend there to spam anti-MEQ/ AV11/12 "OP lazors" is one less point you get to spend anywhere else, on stuff like Wraithguard ot Wraithknights or Barrages or whatever. Y'know, stuff that can hurt anything that's not MEQ or AV11/12. Plus it's ***three dudes***. Three. How much do you want three dudes to cost? "More than they do coz they killed muh Chapter Master"?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
They kill things in close combat. So what? They'll never get there unless your opponent allows it. You've yet to demonstrate why this is not the case

It's not very complicated, he uses Rhinos as LOS screening.

You're making the same mistake Jancoran made - thinking it's just a case of keeping them safe from shooting. You might be able to do that, but even if you can, they're still Infantry. They'll still never charge anything that isn't left in their way, either accidentally (opponent has failed) or on purpose (you have failed).

You aren't completely on the mark either with your take on Scatterbikes, either. Rather than taking fire and failing LD checks against a clear threat, they should be reserved. Which is why in top-table Eldar matches, the player who goes 2nd has a big advantage (though ITC's scoring also plays a part).

Considering almost everything is "a clear threat" to ***three dudes*** (three dudes! Three!) I guess that means they just always start in reserve. Bolt-Backs? Reserve. Drop Pods? Reserve. Boltguns in a mission where you have to move around the board? Reserve.

Also, the Eldar lists that are winning stuff seem to be quite heavy on Warp Spiders and light on Scatbikes. Maybe Warp Spiders are even more OP than Scatbikes?

I think they are - there's ***five whole dudes** in the squad and one of them even has 2W! How am I supposed to kill that with Lightning Claws?! Plus they killed muh Rune Priest! Warp Spiders should cost 40pts a model like Terminators do, and should be 1 per army. They're so OP.