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"Your Blood Angels can shut them up now, so i mean.."

Not even close. Against eight units of them? With crappy terminators and even crappier sanguinary guard? No thanks.

"Tell me how auto-include they are there. "

They are. The scatterlaser is better than any marine range weapon other than grav cannons.

""Extreme durability"? It's ***three dudes****! Three! It's extremely durable because you can't/ won't take the tools you need to reach out and touch them. "

If you really understood how this game worked, you'd understand that it's very expensive to engage 3+ armor at 36". Imperial heavy weapons are quite poor, especially compared to what the Eldar are spitting back. They are guardians. On jetbikes. With 3+ armor. That's extreme durability for the cost in my book.

" Maybe Warp Spiders are even more OP than Scatbikes? "

That's entirely possible. Both need to cost more points, so they can put fewer of them on the table. Warp spider is a 30+ point model easy.

"How much do you want three dudes to cost?"

Well, the scatterlaser is a 20 pt weapon, not a 10 pt weapon, so I guess an extra 30 pts is my answer. Plus it's not just three bikers. It's 3 X 5 or 3 X 8 or even 3 X 11 bikers. You can't engage them effectively with imperial heavy weapons. You just don't have enough shots. Against 11 squads, you are looking losing every Rhino/Immolator in your SoB list in two turns.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage...

The only cost-effective ways I know of to kill it (Skitarii Vanguard with a cast of Misfortune on the Wraithknight, Grav-Centurions, Wraithguard) are fairly OP themselves. Draigo comes close to doing it if he gets Hammerhand and Force off, in theory, and there are a few Greater Daemons that could make a good show of it.

Invisible Dread-knight is a pretty good way to kill a WK. If they are both invis? Monster slap.

It has occurred to me to notice that two teleport-pack Dreadknights aren't too far above the Wraithknight's cost. And since D just inflicts Instant Death as if it were S10 the Dreadknights only (heh, 'only') take d3 wounds from it if it doesn't roll a 6, point two at it and they might win even without Invisibility. (Quick math says on average rolls and without charges the Dreadknights kill the Wraithknight in two assault phases, and it kills one of them before going down)

Regardless of the math in game I am confident if I get a force wielding dreadknight into assault with a WK it's a gonner. I would make the choice 100% of the time. Sadly. Everything else in the eldar army is great at killing dreadknights - so much freaking rending.

Martel732 wrote:
...Or 20 pts, because they are better than assault cannons...

You know if we start this fight again I'm going to have to pull out the math.


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 BBAP wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Okay, I'm going to take the bait. What unit would you call OP or undercosted?

I don't think any units are, off the top of my head. Scatbikes would be if they were in the Spice Maroon Codex, but for a unit in their slot in Codex: Craftworlds they're priced about right.

If you think they should cost more, tell me - what should Eldar players be forced to ditch in exchange for their Scatbikes?

Weapon upgrades should be one per three and 15pts as a stopgap, at least. I've got notes for a more comprehensive overhaul, I'll stick it up over in Proposed Rules eventually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:
...Plus it's ***three dudes***. Three. How much do you want three dudes to cost?...

Last I checked we want three dudes to not get three heavy weapons between them. Other armies' all-heavy-weapon squads are dramatically more expensive, very slow, and don't exist in Troops; last I checked nobody was complaining 80pts/model was too expensive for Grav-Centurions because there are only three of them.

Martel732 wrote:
If you really understood how this game worked

You're drawing conclusions based on weapon profile statlines. You're theory-hammering on what I can only assume are infintely flat planes with no LoS blocking terrain at all, where my vehicles all become transparent once they Wreck. You seem to think an opponent's units have only two conditions; 100% effective or 100% dead.

But yeah. I'm the one who doesn't understand how the game works.

you'd understand that it's very expensive to engage 3+ armor at 36".

Bolters, bro. That's what they're for. You get them for nothing and their whole purpose is to shoot at anything that's not an AV11+ vehicle or T5+. What, you think they're worthless because they're not killing something with every roll? That's not how 40k works, friend. Scatterlasers don't necessarily do that either, especially against power armour.

Imperial heavy weapons are quite poor, especially compared to what the Eldar are spitting back

That's a problem with Imperial heavy weapons then, not with the Eldar. It's also not relevant to this issue because you get bolters and you can use them.

I disagree that they're terrible, though. They're different to the stuff Eldar get, but that's not "worse". It's just different. If you want Eldar weapons and Eldar unit options, play Eldar.

" Maybe Warp Spiders are even more OP than Scatbikes? "

That's entirely possible. Both need to cost more points, so they can put fewer of them on the table. Warp spider is a 30+ point model easy.

Some T3 dude in power armour with an AP- weapon that rolls to wound against I and has a 12" range. 30 points. Why, because he can JSJ and Run after shooting? Because he has Monofilament?

Who's going to take this unit if it costs 150pts base? Where's the 30+pts of value?

"How much do you want three dudes to cost?"

Well, the scatterlaser is a 20 pt weapon, not a 10 pt weapon, so I guess an extra 30 pts is my answer.

So an extra 30pts per squad, 90pts per three squads. That means I only get 3 squads (or rather, 2.8-ish) for every four I'd normally take. That rebalances things, in your view? Let's see:

Plus it's not just three bikers. It's 3 X 5 or 3 X 8 or even 3 X 11 bikers.

Apparently not, because applying your own suggested fix these armies are taking only 3x4, 3x6, or 3x8. That's not a significant drop in overall firepower in my book - from the bikes at least, because overall these kinds of armies suck. 3x4 to 3x6 is what you see in most successful lists already, because more than that starts eating into your ability to bring **actual** heavy weapons capable of dealing with big toys, leaving you with a bunch of dudes who can't hurt a Leman Russ and have to check Morale if one of them crashes into a tree.

You can't engage them effectively with imperial heavy weapons.

1. Define "engage effectively". You mean "kill something with every roll", don't you? Is that how MEQ armies work?
2. T4, 3+ save, 4+ Jink. Heavy weapons not necessary.

Against 11 squads, you are looking losing every Rhino/Immolator in your SoB list in two turns.

Sure, assuming an infinitely flat plane with perfect LoS everywhere - but my list isn't balanced for the meta in 7th, so I can't use it as a yardstick to measure what is and isn't OP (especially not in a scenario like this, because 40k isn't balanced around your kitchen table). I did at first. I whined like hell about Sisters being broken before I got a few games under my belt with a couple of different armies and got a bit of a handle on the new Edition. It wasn't a problem with the game, or Scatbikes, or whatever; it was a problem with **me**, with the army I was choosing to run. You can make a balanced 7th Ed list with Sisters in it, but not with only Sisters in it. I choose to play them anyway because it's a challenge, I can still win certain games against certain armies, and playing them has a certain nostalgic appeal. Plus they're my Sisters and they're awesome.

The other issue with Scatpacks, rather than their power relative to other armies, is how they easily they outshine the other Troops choices that Eldar get. Unless you're using a "free upgrades" host, there's little reason to run foot Guardians, and Dire Avengers/Rangers may as well not exist in most cases. The Avenger Shrine formation is admittedly somewhat cute but by itself isn't competitive. (One thing I've been a fan of is giving Guardian Jetbikes a 4+ save, and Avengers a 3+ save, though YMMV).

Anyway, back on topic for "unknown" power units, the Blue Scribes don't get enough recognition, but 7th edition changes to Psyker Powers gave them a major lease on life.

The problem with the Scribes in 6th was that a "random power" just didn't impress anyone, especially when they couldn't swap for a Primaris, and the fact they're NOT an Independent Character means you cannot hide them in a unit of Screamers. Their Syphon ability was fairly limited in its ability to be used, only translating to a few extra shots from Horrors now and then, and the fact they can't be taken as part of the "four Heralds for one HQ slot" group meant taking them was a trade-off between Fateweaver, or actual Heralds. While the Masque at least gets some recognition from her non-randomized ability to shut down deathstars (as well as Run after dancing), the Scribes got no love.

Enter 7th. Malefic Daemonology is a solid discipline overall, and almost every power is worth having (except Infernal Gaze arguably), and he autocasts one power each turn at the minimum WC needed. That's a 1 in 3 chance of Incursion or Possession in one go, which both would need at least 7 WC to get off with some degree of reasonable odds of success. The addition of a Psychic Phase, as well as changes to how casting works, means that the Scribes can move 12, manifest a power, then turbo to a better position, drastically improving his odds of survival. Did I mention he costs only as much as a single Scatpack? He's cheap enough to be expendable, but dangerous enough to turn a game in your favor. His other ability, the Spirit Syphon, is "cute" but in practice the game favors smaller numbers of big powers going off anyway rather than lots of smaller powers going off. That being said, he's really cheap for what he does, and after a certain threshold, he becomes more efficient than investing in another Herald.

He's better if you're running a Daemon CAD as an ally either to CSM or R&H, especially compared to Fateweaver. By not making Daemons your Primary, you don't worry about the Warp Storm at all, so paying 300+ points for rerolling it doesn't matter as much.

Your bolters don't reach the scatbikes. Scatterlaser uber alles.

I'm aware of LoS restrictions, but scatterbikes can easily reposition to keep shooting. LoS blockers help the Eldar more than hurt them.

" Where's the 30+pts of value? "

Because S6/7 is the panacea in 7th ed. Also, they are very heavily spammed, so even if 30 is not the right number, their current cost is too low.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
(One thing I've been a fan of is giving Guardian Jetbikes a 4+ save, and Avengers a 3+ save, though YMMV).

I'm on board with 4+ save for Eldar Jetbikes in general (right now we've got Reavers with a 5+, Skyweavers with a 4+, and Craftworld/Corsair jetbikes with a 3+), it'd make more sense than the current array. 3+ to DA I'm more skeptical about.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Weapon upgrades should be one per three and 15pts as a stopgap, at least. I've got notes for a more comprehensive overhaul, I'll stick it up over in Proposed Rules eventually.

I've been over this for the other guy. See above.

Last I checked we want three dudes to not get three heavy weapons between them.

Speak for yourself. If it makes sense in the context of the army then I'm fine with it.

Other armies' all-heavy-weapon squads are dramatically more expensive, very slow, and don't exist in Troops

Other armies are not Eldar. What happens to the Eldar if you take away the Scatbikes? Where's their other reliable anti-infantry/ light mech shooting coming from? Shuriken Catapults?

last I checked nobody was complaining 80pts/model was too expensive for Grav-Centurions because there are only three of them.

T5, 2+ armour, 2 wounds each, ****grav weapons****. If they cost 80pts for 3 models they'd be OP. Scatbikes are not any of these things, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from this comparison.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...Enter 7th. Malefic Daemonology is a solid discipline overall, and almost every power is worth having (except Infernal Gaze arguably), and he autocasts one power each turn at the minimum WC needed...

The only downside to Malefic is that Possession stops the random silliness from happening. I find the fact that they're allowed to roll on Sanctic hilarious, personally.

Considering that Avengers do jack to vehicles, and Grav is still a thing, and their role is supposedly the balanced art of attack and defense, I doubt a 3+ would be the end of the world for them; it would definitely make taking them vs Jetbikes more of an interesting what-if debate. Their Overwatch buff is cute but there are enough ways to get around that. Besides, it's not like Jetbikes can't jink, at least until people break out the Hellhounds/Gauss Tombblades...

The lack of randomness might be an edge advantage for the Scribes thohgh, as worst comes to worst, you're getting a Lord of Change with a 149-point discount. The real issue would be if you gave up First Blood with Possession, though if you're running Rhinos, chances are that it's bound to happen anyway.

"What happens to the Eldar if you take away the Scatbikes?"

They still stomp 80% of the lists in the game without trying hard. So basically, nothing. The entire codex ranges from solid to crazy OP.

Are you suggesting to shoot jet-bikes with bolters?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you suggesting to shoot jet-bikes with bolters?

Yeah, he is. Because that totally works.

Martel732 wrote:
"What happens to the Eldar if you take away the Scatbikes?"

They still stomp 80% of the lists in the game without trying hard. So basically, nothing. The entire codex ranges from solid to crazy OP.

Humm...take 2 min squads of gardians which also put out 20 rending shots at bs4 and can run and shoot in the same phase in any order. Then spam Warwalkers to get firepower equal to scatter bikes for about the same price ... oh and still be able to run and shoot in any order in the same phase with them too. I could take the eldar challange. You can remove any 5 units from the codex and I will still beat you with the remaining units. lol.

Half the problem with Scatbikes is that they're a troop choice. Bung em out to FA (and don't give them a stupid formation that makes them BS5 instead)

Bartali wrote:
Half the problem with Scatbikes is that they're a troop choice. Bung em out to FA (and don't give them a stupid formation that makes them BS5 instead)

The other half is that the scatterlaser is too cheap.

" Define "engage effectively""

Be able to deal damage somewhere around at least a 0.75 ratio of damage out to damage in. The imperium can't do this with scatterbikes with any heavy weapon they have.

Martel732 wrote:
Your bolters don't reach the scatbikes. Scatterlaser uber alles.

Not if you're playing on some kind of non-Euclidian flat surface that breaks the laws of physics and allows Scatbikes to be 36" away from everything they're shooting at all times.

That's not what happens in the game, is it? The opponent's table edge isn't 36" away from the centre of the board. The edge of my deployment zone is never more than 12" from the median of the board.

The best way for you to see what I mean is to play against these Scatbike armies on a table with any LoS blocking terrain on it. Have a look for photos of the tables at GTs; build one of those for yourself and give it a go.

I'm aware of LoS restrictions, but scatterbikes can easily reposition to keep shooting. LoS blockers help the Eldar more than hurt them.

They can reposition, but that repositioning isn't always going to land them 36" away if they have to come around an angle to draw a bead. Unless you play on the aforementioned magic table.

Because S6/7 is the panacea in 7th ed.

But they have 10 shots at 12+12" range. 24", that is, then they Run+JSJ. T3 dudes in power armour who **have** to come into bolter range to do any work. 5 of them cost 150pts. The Eldar's only Grav weapon equivalent is now a bit of a dud.

This isn't you fixing OP. This is you ruining Codex: Craftworlds.

Also, they are very heavily spammed, so even if 30 is not the right number, their current cost is too low.

Right. Does this logic apply to Tactical Squads? Heavily spammed, so their cost is too low - let's make them 120pts. They're also T4, that's gotta be worth another, let's say, 30pts. 150pts for a Tactical Squad. Enjoy your new Battle Company!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you suggesting to shoot jet-bikes with bolters?

Look at a typical Eldar list and tell me what else you'd be shooting bolters at. The Wraithknight? Wave Serpents? Maybe you just don't bother firing them at all, then come to Dakka and whine about ZOMGOP Eldar.

As I said, LoS blocking terrain helps Eldar more than hurts them.

"This is you ruining Codex: Craftworlds. "

Hardly. That unit will still be nasty.

No one cares about bolters anyway. If you trade bolter shots with scatterlasers you will come out on the losing end of that. You wont' cause enough damage quickly enough to avoid taking mass damage in return. The possibility of not being range is just icing on the cake for the scatbikes.

People spam tac marines for the free transports. This effectively lowers the cost of tac marines significantly. BA players actively avoid them like the plague because they are terrible without the gladius rules. So your comparison is not valid. People are spamming scatbikes because they are way too good for their cost.

 BBAP wrote:
Other armies are not Eldar. What happens to the Eldar if you take away the Scatbikes? Where's their other reliable anti-infantry/ light mech shooting coming from? Shuriken Catapults?

...Everywhere?...

War Walkers. Wave Serpents. Dark Reapers. One-gun-per-three scatterbikes. Guardian Defenders. Dire Avengers. All the other stuff Scatterbikes have made redundant and relegated to a shelf collecting dust.

I'm sorry, but the idea that scatterbikes are actually integral to the normal operation of the army is silly. I've been playing Mechdar/Aspects for closing on ten years now and it works just fine with no bikes.

last I checked nobody was complaining 80pts/model was too expensive for Grav-Centurions because there are only three of them.

T5, 2+ armour, 2 wounds each, ****grav weapons****. If they cost 80pts for 3 models they'd be OP. Scatbikes are not any of these things, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from this comparison.

I think you were supposed to get that "...how much do you want three models to cost?..." is the wrong question, since there are quite obviously units where three models are 50+ points each and absolutely worth it.

Bartali wrote:
Half the problem with Scatbikes is that they're a troop choice. Bung em out to FA (and don't give them a stupid formation that makes them BS5 instead)

Not the issue at all. Objective secured is great for them but eldar really don't need it on them. Eldar straight blow you off objectives they barely ever need to contest. All FA does is change they way they are feidled. Instead of 3 man units you'll see 2 6 mans with attached farseers rolling guide to give them all twin-linked. Plus they can already get them in a formation which has essentially no tax except for a jetbike warlock.

Martel732 wrote:
...No one cares about bolters anyway...

The Guardsmen who can't have S4 ranged weapons would like to have a word with you.

 Jancoran wrote:

Wolfblade 707431 9025693 wrote:
2 broadsides on average will deal 3hp of damage to AV11 (8 shots, 6 hits, 4+ for a glance or pen obviously). That's very little firepower required to deal with a rhino chassis or two, and still be able to deal with the rest of the things you mentioned.
.

Same kind of argument. But it assumes the primary threat to the Rhinos isnt already shot dead.

If I have Grotequques, what do my scourges kill first? STR 10 weapons. If I am playing with Orks, what might I be likely to kill first? Things that kill my hordes and disallow them from being clumped up and smashy.

So here again... we agreed. We agreed that you CAN. We just aren't necessarily agreeing that you will.

So, you get to make assumptions, but I don't? I don't get to make the assumption that there will be AT LEAST one turn where I have LoS to them with at least one unit?

the point is reps don't have a lot going for them except chainfists and a 3+ FNP, twice per game (POSSIBLY twice per game, it can fail). They're not quick, They can only do damage in melee, They're not durable outside of their AoF, and they have no good special abilities outside of the assault phase. Compare that to Scatbikes, WKs, a Gladius, wraithguard with a WWP, Psykers with summoning, CM Smashfether, Gravcents, Stormsurges, Tau'nars etc.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

The only time you won was against unranked players, while the ranked players (SM gladius and 5 flyrant) planned around either avoiding them, or feeding them cheap units to waste their time.

What are you talking about. They were all ranked players. So am I.

What I told you was that the ones I lost to were in the top 1%. I really...really...have a hard time seeing how losing to them is any statement about the Sisters Repentia. Either one would warn you against underestimating it. It's a big reason why i was able to have a chance in the losses. Obviously the 3 1's was just plain bad luck.That said nothing about them either.

If you want to talk about the unit fine. But attacking the opponents is stupid. Especially at our level. Give me a break.

In the games you lost, you played vs an optimized list. In the others, you either played gimmicky lists (i.e. all termies), or they made fairly large mistakes (wasting the spawn on killing your rhinos). And sure, ok whatever, they were all ranked players, but you're still ignoring what I said. You lost when you played an optimized list, and won when you played against a bad list

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...No one cares about bolters anyway...

The Guardsmen who can't have S4 ranged weapons would like to have a word with you.

We'll see who needs a word after misfortune goes off. Unfortunately, there is no cost effective way to make bolter fire worthwhile.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you suggesting to shoot jet-bikes with bolters?

Yeah, he is. Because that totally works.

If you can get range it absolutely does. Try it sometime.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...No one cares about bolters anyway...

The Guardsmen who can't have S4 ranged weapons would like to have a word with you.

We'll see who needs a word after misfortune goes off. Unfortunately, there is no cost effective way to make bolter fire worthwhile.

Use it?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you suggesting to shoot jet-bikes with bolters?

Yeah, he is. Because that totally works.

If you can get range it absolutely does. Try it sometime.

Bikes don't care about bolters because I know my marines don't. And they have the same stat lines. I can tell you it doesn't work.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are you suggesting to shoot jet-bikes with bolters?

Yeah, he is. Because that totally works.

If you can get range it absolutely does. Try it sometime.

Bikes don't care about bolters because I know my marines don't. And they have the same stat lines. I can tell you it doesn't work.

We can go back and forth all day telling each other "yes they do!" "no they don't!", but unless you go try it (possibly making use of the Drop Pods you've been so disparaging of off in that thread) you're not going to see I'm right.

The Eldar players have to contend with skyhammer lists. I don't think they are going to lose to BA in drop pods. The best that gets you usually is the bikes coming out of reserve. But your guys are on foot, and your alpha strike did nothing, so you are still dead meat.

You're acting like I don't actually play against these guys. I've tried everything. Mech, jumper, drop pod, etc. Nothing works because it's dozens and dozens of armor saves to make every turn. The step up from S5 to S6 is so huge in 7th ed and the Eldar pay nothing for it. You're wounding almost everything on a 2+, and AV 12 crumbles before you. That means IKs crumble to these things. AV 11 dies twice as fast vs S5. I could go on.

I've got access to drop fragnoughts which will outright kill or cripple a scatbike unit. Doesn't help in the slightest because they know its coming.

@BBAP - bolters are range 24" Scatter laser are range 36" and have about 5x the offensive botential to a bolter. Bikes move 2x as fast. You will never shoot a scatter bike with a bolter unless you are in a drop pod. Why the heck would you ever put tac marines in a drop pod?

 Xenomancers wrote:
@BBAP - bolters are range 24" Scatter laser are range 36" and have about 5x the offensive botential to a bolter. Bikes almost move 2x as fast. You will never shoot a scatter bike with a bolter unless you are in a drop pod. Why the heck would you ever put tac marines in a drop pod?

To wreck the gunline armies that don't want you to be able to plant units with their own portable cover in their deployment zone on turn one?

Tac marines aren't wrecking anything. Get real. Even in a gladius, they are taken just to be obj sec bullet sponges. They are good in a horde format. Hooray.