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Here's the question. What could make Ogryns viable? (not talking about Bullgryns here, let's focus on the regular big meaty men) Now we all love those big meaty men, but it's clear that they didn't get much love in the codex. Now their stat line isn't something to sneeze at but isn't great either for the price they pay and They just don't seem to fit in the army and meta either.

They need to (and want to) go crunch people in CC, but the guard has no assault vehicle, plus they are very bulky so that's a max of 4 Ogryns in a chimera. If they footslog, they're going to get shot to pieces thanks to their pitiful armor save. They can't really retaliate fire either since their Ripper guns only have 12'' range. And they cost 40pts. BUTTTTTT..... maybe if we slap a big unit of conscripts with a priest in front of them?


For me, Ogryns desperatly at least need FNP on a 5+ or something similar.

Friend showed me the 4th edition ogryn stats and that seemed fairly nice. T6 and 2 wounds. don't know if that's better then T5 and 3 wounds, don't have time for math right now.

What you guys think could make Ogryns a big more special and viable.

Make ripper guns template weapons in their first shot or overwatch. Massive rapid fire automatic shotguns should be better than a dinky heavy bolter, and the template effect combined with their reputation for being trigger happy and requiring burst limiters would make all kinds of sense.

Problem with Ogryns is they're a shooty assault unit, which is part of the problem with ASM. If they *have* to be semi-shooty, they may as well make it worthwhile.

Ogryns and Bullgryns need a huge Ld boost. Theyre using Ld to reflect intelligence for some reason in a game that has no need to reflect that in the way they appear to be trying, and are using Stubborn as a useless stand in for bravery. Make them Fearless or bumo their Ld way up, they used to be Ld9 or 10 way back i the day.

After that, drop their cost, both units. With stuff like Wulfen and TWC's around, Ogryns have no business being anything near what they cost woth dramatically less resiliency and mobility.

Make them Ld9 Stubborn or Fearless and 25ppm, with a similar drop for Bullgryns (that really shouldnt be a separate unit either, just an upgrade option ) and they might have a purpose.

I think they need some sort of FnP in order to counter the fact that 90% of the weapons out there ignore their 5+ saves. sure T5 is cool and all but you're paying terminator prices and you're not getting power weapons or a decent armor save. Not to mention awful leadership! Reasonably they should be fearless or something close to that effect, since they are too stupid to know when to retreat.

Give them a 4+ armour save, a 5++ FNP save, LD 8 and fearless. And whilst we are at it make them AP3 on the charge, dropping to AP 4 afterwards.

And quite suddenly there are a lot less Marine players wanting to get too close to them.

Ogryns have struggled for multiple editions, and GW seems terrified to make them effective, even as a counter charge unit.

They aren't tricky: give them enough attacks and wounds, at a low enough cost, to punch through armor and shrug off casualties. When 5th edition hit, we got excited that ogryns were finally T5, but the 40pt cost was off putting.

I say, instead of trying to figure out some way to make them competitive with terminators at the 40ppm level, make them 25ppm.

Current stats except they have Ld8. 30 ppm, Ripper Guns have shred and are 18" range instead. Give them FNP built in and their attacks have rending.

I think the need and effective assault transport. And a price drop


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Also I'd like to see the possibility of nork leading a squad of them or even being able to purchase them for a company command squad as body guards would be cool

Half their point cost -> done

 Grimskul wrote:
Current stats except they have Ld8. 30 ppm, Ripper Guns have shred and are 18" range instead. Give them FNP built in and their attacks have rending.

I can see any of these but Shred on the guns and Rending melee attacks. What would be the justifications fluffwise?

 drunken0elf wrote:
Here's the question. What could make Ogryns viable? (not talking about Bullgryns here, let's focus on the regular big meaty men) Now we all love those big meaty men, but it's clear that they didn't get much love in the codex. Now their stat line isn't something to sneeze at but isn't great either for the price they pay and They just don't seem to fit in the army and meta either.

They need to (and want to) go crunch people in CC, but the guard has no assault vehicle, plus they are very bulky so that's a max of 4 Ogryns in a chimera. If they footslog, they're going to get shot to pieces thanks to their pitiful armor save. They can't really retaliate fire either since their Ripper guns only have 12'' range. And they cost 40pts. BUTTTTTT..... maybe if we slap a big unit of conscripts with a priest in front of them?


For me, Ogryns desperatly at least need FNP on a 5+ or something similar.

Friend showed me the 4th edition ogryn stats and that seemed fairly nice. T6 and 2 wounds. don't know if that's better then T5 and 3 wounds, don't have time for math right now.

What you guys think could make Ogryns a big more special and viable.

Ogryn & Bullgryn are in a really bad way right now. They are massively overpriced for what they bring to the table. To start their base cost is almost 33% more expensive then Wolfen with no awesome special rules. Despite being what should be the designated counter assault unit in the IG codex, 2 of the 3 builds offer no benefit to melee whatsoever.

Ripper Guns give no bonus to strength/WS, despite being specifically designed for Ogryn to be used as melee weapons yet it is not reflected at all on the tabletop.. Nor do they add rending/shred when fired. Which is a huge disappointment.

Then you have the slab shield option. Which forces bullgryn to take grenade launchers. Once again...not providing any benefit to melee. IG's primary weakness.

Lastly you have power maul & brute shield. Now, while this is likely your best option it is still pretty terrible. The increase in points to an already expensive unit is well beyond reasonable. The +2S is nice, however the concussive bonus is less than ideal. One of Ogryns biggest threats is S10 power weapons. Thunder hammers, power claws & what have you. Concussive does nothing for you when those weapons are already hitting at initiative one since they are unwieldy. If any of those attack get through its instant death if you fail invul despite the ogryn/bullgryn's 3 wounds.

Then there is the issue of low leadership. Meaning you have to add a commissar or some other babysitter to actually make the unit effective...bloating the points even more...

Then there is the issue of them not having Feel No Pain. Out of all the units in any codex that deserve feel no pain, its bullgryn. Their thick skin, muscle mass and brute strength shrug off wounds that would normally injure/kill a man. Not reflected at all on the tabletop.

All in all, I have no idea what the GW designers were thinking. Ogryn/Bullgryns are definitely in the running for one of the worst units in 40K as whole. The one thing they do have going for them is their new models. They look fantastic. I'd love to field them more, but doing so is putting your opponent at a significant advantage before the game even begins.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Current stats except they have Ld8. 30 ppm, Ripper Guns have shred and are 18" range instead. Give them FNP built in and their attacks have rending.

I can see any of these but Shred on the guns and Rending melee attacks. What would be the justifications fluffwise?

Shred because together they shoot almost a literal cloud of shot that would easily mulch infantry and potentially put some serious harm onto larger targets like MC given the gun's size. Probably should return it to 12" range again if that were the case. Rending wise is less saying that they have the skill the get through armour and more to demonstrate their brute strength eventually breaking through to a weak spot. Ogryns are stated to be able to tear off a space marine's head straight off their body so it shows them potentially tearing the opponent to shreds. This also makes it so they have a bit more versatility while not having a guaranteed way of dealing with armour. I figure that their lack of access to an immediate assault transport outside of allies limits their role to that of being a counter-attack force/objective baby sitter.

In the 4th ed book they had +1 strength from the ripper gun if I remember right. Giving them that, making the Ripper gun str 5 ap 5 or 4, and a points drop to 25 PPM would do for me. Maybe a 4+ save to represent their natural resilience, as I'm not a fan of FNP everywhere. I could deal with just the price drop. Bullgryns would also be usable with a drop.

 malamis wrote:
Make ripper guns template weapons in their first shot or overwatch. Massive rapid fire automatic shotguns should be better than a dinky heavy bolter, and the template effect combined with their reputation for being trigger happy and requiring burst limiters would make all kinds of sense.

Problem with Ogryns is they're a shooty assault unit, which is part of the problem with ASM. If they *have* to be semi-shooty, they may as well make it worthwhile.

While I don't consider a heavy bolter to be dinky I think the rest of this idea is solid. They'd still need a point decrease as well but it fits how the weapon is supposed to work, literally a huge shower of hot shrapnel.

Splitting the two types of Ogryn into separate units is an infuriating habit of GW. A single unit entry, with options to add armour and replace the gun with a flexible CC loadout would be a huge improvement.

I'd also love to see a generic Ogryn bodyguard option for command squads, probably with an option to upgrade to Nork similar to how Pask works currently.

ASM are not really assault units, in the sense of being made to go toe to toe with dedicated assault units.

They are a unit for engaging shooty units and neutralizing them.

anyway

Points decrease

I don't see much need for Ogryn buffs, I'd say just decrease their cost substantially.

Yeah +1 strenght melee sounds nice and actually fluffy and logical.

Ogryns punches you at Str5 but when he wacks you with a huge blunt metal object (his damn ripper gun), it's still str5.. yeah str6 melee attacks seems logical and reasonable.


... basically from what I read it's putting the Ogryns back like in 4th ed price and stats except keeping the T5 and 3wounds instead.

Yeah, I think Ogryn are fine, actually, aside from a curiously low leadership and an absurdly high points value.

Making them T5 improved survivability to both small arms and S8/9 instant death, which used to combine to gut Ogryn Squads when they were T4. Nothing like watching bolt pistol fire from an assault squad drop one Ogryn, and then the powerfist sarge wipe two to three more on this own!

I apply the tactical squad test: Ogryns aren't meant to be a great CC unit, but they should easily manhandle a tactical squad, which is not in any way optimized for CC.

 Polonius wrote:
I apply the tactical squad test: Ogryns aren't meant to be a great CC unit, but they should easily manhandle a tactical squad, which is not in any way optimized for CC.

For sure. Ogryns should cromp non dedicated CC units and shooty units in melee. I don't expect Ogryns to do very well against a unit of terminators, but I expect them to beat a unit of shooty tact marines.

Well, let's break them down, then build them back up.

FIRST! What are Ogryn in 40K? They're "abhumans", or mutant humans, whose mutation makes them big, brawny, resistant to damage and, in general, kinda dumb. They make good soldiers as, while they don't learn tactics well, they take to being ordered lke a duck to water and have long been the big beefy backup of the Commissar corps. Ogryns *love* the emperor, and he loves them.

So lets create a statline.

Weapon Skill.: 3
Ogryn are big, beefy guys who're trained to thump people upside the head. They're not super-good at it, relying more on raw strength than technique, and the image of a commissar being able to embarrass one in unarmed combat in order to establish dominance clicks well in my head. There's an argument to be made that they should have a 4, but, until and unless we have WS comparisons similar to Ballistic, they don't really *need* to have a higher WS.

Ballistic Skill: 2
Ogryn are kinda clumsy and do poorly with most Imperial weaponry. They tend to get "spray and pray" weapons for a reason, and should be below an average Guardsman's accuracy.

Strength: 5
Ogryn are huge. Just, like, stupid huge. A Strength of 4 would make them on par with a Space Marine, but a tad bigger and stronger works to give them a better niche.

Toughness: 4
Big and bulky, sure, but they're still flesh and blood. A direct hit from a missile launcher should explode one into goo. This is always my personal measure for where Toughness moves from 4 to 5, and they fail my mental test. This still makes them harder than a human, which works, and as rugged as an Ork or a Marine, which seems the right place.

Wounds: 2
This is probably the biggest change. We've seen them as 3 for forever, but putting them in a role similar to Ork Nobs feels a bit better and will help with the final point tally and a few rules to come.

Initiative: 2

Once again, slow and clumsy are words that have always been around Ogryn. I see no reason to change that. A bit slower than Humans, on par with Orks, still faster than a power fist.

Attacks: 2
No big shock here. More than that doesn't really make a ton of sense, since this is the "Veteran soldier" level of attacks and they don't have things like multiple arms which would imply a greater number.

Leadership: 8
Big and dumb, with a high religious love of the Emperor, Ogryn are still (ab)human and can break down crying if, for instance, they think someone is going to "Tell the Commissar on them" or similar. You want them a bit better than a standard trooper, but to still get a benefit when lead by a Commissar, so, an 8 hits the sweet spot. See special rules for a helper on this one.

Saving Throw: 5+
Flak Armor, pushed up in size for the Ogryn, makes sense. Based on the models, they shuld have a "T-shirt save' of 6+, but I'm feeling generous.

Wargear
Time-honored as a load out is a Ripper Gun and a CLose Combat weapon, plus Flak armor. Frag Grenades make sense, but I'd hold off on Krak. You could get away with providing a few more weapon options, but I'd like to keep it simple for the moment. The Ripper Gun gets a new statline, below

**Ripper Gun**
The chosen weapon of the Ogryn corps, the Ripper is essentially a heavy stubber, unmounted from a tripod and carried by an Ogryn, whose raw strength allows it to serve as a portable weapon. The Riper was designed with the Ogryn in mind, being a shortranged weapon which makes up for their poor accuracy with a high rate of fire, creating a distinctive "ripping" sound as the air is torn apart by the hail of lead.

Ripper Gun, Range 12", Strength 4, AP -, Assault 4.

Special Rules
Bulky (An Ogryn counts as two models for Transport), Feel No Pain (5+), Stubborn

Bulky, rather than Very Bulky, is a small, but important, change. They're not really titanic when compared to a Terminator, for instance, but are clearly larger than a normal human or even than a Marine. This change also helps with transports and assault.
Feel No Pain is a basic "Too dumb to know that they're dead" rule. Helps with small arms, not so much Instant Death weapons, like rockets.
Stubborn is the default "They don't know any better" rule.

BONEHEAD (character)
The unit leader of a band of Ogryn is a Bonehead. These are Ogryn who have undergone surgery (willing or not!) to have cybernetics implanted into their skull (thus the name) ... these help make them somewhat less stupid, but are also designed to broadcast soothing or inspirational messages from "The Emperor" to them. An increase in Leadership doesn't quite work, so the statline gets a different adjustment:
BONEHEAD - WS 4, BS 2, S 5, T 4, W 2, I 2, A 3, LD 8 - Gives the unit Counter-Charge. A Bonehead has a cranial implant version of a Vox Caster.

You get the +1 attack of a sergeant profile, a basic order that a Bonehead can issue (Get 'em!) via Counter-Charge, and the Voxcaster rule is already in place, making them easy to boss around as it should be.

So, only a couple of bits left to do, now.

UNIT
An Ogryn unit consists of 3 Ogryn. You may add up to 7 additional Ogryn at 15 points per model.
One Ogryn may be upgraded to a Bonehead for 10 pts.
An Ogryn unit may take a Taurox or Chimera as a dedicated transport at (normal) cost, provided that it can carry the entire unit.

There're a few more things that you can do here, like some weapon options (Some kind of melee options and maybe a heavy weapon type), and, obviously, the Bullgryns would need some finagling to match up with these guys, but I think that they'd start seeing more play. A unit of five, with a Bonehead, is 85 points, giving you 10 wounds of 5+ save, akin to a Guardsman squad, with a better Toughness and that hit harder in melee, but don't shoot as well.Mounted up, they serve as a good linebreaking unit, who aren't going to retreat if the assault bounces, while on foot they can be placed as a counter-charge unit, doing their job by protecting the squishier guys.

Later, you could also expand on them a bit, allowing for, say, "Ogryn Weapon Teams", where a single Ogryn carries a heavy weapon for a unit, Ogryn bodyguard, or an Ogryn Banner Bearer because, by golly, if you want a bedrock dude to hold the pole in one hand while sweeping fire via the other, and never running from the field, an Ogryn is your boy, you know?

Wakshaani you just made the Ogryns even more useless then they were.

Ogryns are big meaty men. Don't take of they're big meaty men status by making them T4.

Although Ogryns having BS3 in the codex always amazed me.

I always saw that as being less of an 'I'm skilled with firearms' thing and more about the fact that it's extremely hard to miss with a ripper gun.

Considering a Space Marine is a big genetically engineered super warrior and they're T4 I'd say T4 qualifies as big and meaty.

Why is everybody's "quick-n-easy" soulution to give models Feel No Pain? All that is doing to the game is throwing a 3rd save onto everything that isn't Eldar.

 Stormonu wrote:
Why is everybody's "quick-n-easy" soulution to give models Feel No Pain? All that is doing to the game is throwing a 3rd save onto everything that isn't Eldar.

Well to be fair, a lot of the units that benefit the most from it have no access to a native invuln. or good armour save, meaning that it is the only way for them to get by in the current high dakka meta environment. Slow units, like Ogryns, with no access to dedicated assault transports need this even more given how unreliable getting into an assault is nowadays without special formation rules letting you charge after deep striking or reserve.

FNP only really gets ridiculous when stacked on top of units with good saves and invulns. with typically high toughness. Iron Hands Smashfether is an example of this, or GMC with invulns like the Wraithknight or Riptides. Those are the guys who shouldn't have layers of saves since they already require higher than average firepower to get past their toughness or high armour, whereas guys like Ogryn can be reasonably whittled down by even small arms.

 Stormonu wrote:
Why is everybody's "quick-n-easy" soulution to give models Feel No Pain? All that is doing to the game is throwing a 3rd save onto everything that isn't Eldar.

It isn't the quick-and-easy solution to most things. The quick-and-easy solution to Terminators is to start them with a 4++ and power weapons (at a cheaper base price instead of forcing them to pay for power fists), the quick-and-easy solution to Scourges is make them Jet Packs with a 12" base move (the way Swooping Hawks are Jump with an 18" base move), the quick-and-easy solution to Grey Knights is +1A for everyone and resurrect a few of the 5e book's psychic powers, the quick-and-easy solution to superheavies is to cap them at one per full 1,500pts.

Off the top of my head the only things FNP is the quick-and-easy solution for are Ogryn and one or two midsized Tyranid creatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Wakshaani: You've created an interesting alternate abhuman unit, but T4/W2 doesn't suggest a 40mm-based hulking 3-10 unit that exists in a similar design space to Tyranid Warriors, Wraithguard, and Terminators. They've hopped size categories down into an unusual mid-sized zone to hang out with the 28-32mm-based Genestealer Aberrants, Ork Nobz, and Corsair Malevolents.

If you want a point of comparison for the statline I'd suggest looking at DE Grotesques rather than Nobz; Nobz are a dramatically better-equipped unit that run around with armour and power klaws, Grotesques are three-wound flesh-mountains with no armour and highly limited guns that rely on brute strength and high statlines. Dropping the statline almost across the board (if I'm reading this correctly you're proposing leaving S, I, and Sv the same, pumping Leadership to 8 for no adequately explained reason, and dropping everything else by a point?) doesn't make much sense as Ogryns, this is reading like some sort of alternate smaller abhuman.

(Amusing postscript: Grotesques do, in fact, have FNP)

Oh, here's an easy Ripper Gun fix: give them the Pistol rule (but include the extra shots, like some of the Mech guns), add CCW, presto. Usable in CC to good effect. I definitely want my Ogryns to keep T5 though. I would be completely OK with a points drop AND a wound drop if they go back to Bulky. The most comparable models are Tyranid Warriors and Chaos Spawn, they should have stats somewhere between those. You definitely need T5, FNP or 4+ armour though, or they are unusable with those changes.

I forgot Grotesques, good point. Although on them I see FNP as just being so pumped with biological stimms and so inured to pain they just don't notice. I can see an Ogryn who's not in battle mode stubbing his toe and crying like a baby, honestly!

 Stormonu wrote:
Why is everybody's "quick-n-easy" soulution to give models Feel No Pain? All that is doing to the game is throwing a 3rd save onto everything that isn't Eldar.

You're right, FNP is currently on many models that shouldn't have it. Ogryn however, are one of the few exceptions that definitely should:

Taken directly from the lore:

Ogryns are massive brutes whose immense strength is legendary throughout the imperium. They thunder into enemy tropps, smashing the 'little 'uns' to a paste with broad swings of stocky weapons. They can survive a score of wounds that would fell a normal man and shrug off small arms fire as if it were nothing more than a bothersome sump-fly.

If there is a better definition for feeling no pain, I haven't seen one.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Why is everybody's "quick-n-easy" soulution to give models Feel No Pain? All that is doing to the game is throwing a 3rd save onto everything that isn't Eldar.

It was what made the most sense, in my head, for this unit. A third wound could be used instead, but would require a bit of points rejiggery. (As a general rule, I want a massive change in the FnP rule, but, that's neither here nor there.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Wakshaani: You've created an interesting alternate abhuman unit, but T4/W2 doesn't suggest a 40mm-based hulking 3-10 unit that exists in a similar design space to Tyranid Warriors, Wraithguard, and Terminators. They've hopped size categories down into an unusual mid-sized zone to hang out with the 28-32mm-based Genestealer Aberrants, Ork Nobz, and Corsair Malevolents.

If you want a point of comparison for the statline I'd suggest looking at DE Grotesques rather than Nobz; Nobz are a dramatically better-equipped unit that run around with armour and power klaws, Grotesques are three-wound flesh-mountains with no armour and highly limited guns that rely on brute strength and high statlines. Dropping the statline almost across the board (if I'm reading this correctly you're proposing leaving S, I, and Sv the same, pumping Leadership to 8 for no adequately explained reason, and dropping everything else by a point?) doesn't make much sense as Ogryns, this is reading like some sort of alternate smaller abhuman.

(Amusing postscript: Grotesques do, in fact, have FNP)

Welll, Terminators are T4 and 1 Wd, so, right at home. Wraithguard aren't fleshy, so don't line up as well. And, yeah, Nobs are a good comparison point, being that they're big, strong, fleshy humanoids. You might also note how few people use them, unless they get on bikes (That 6+ save normally is a killer.)

(I'm a tad sad that you don't buy the reasoning behind the Leadership, but,c an't please everyone.) ... the current-style Ogryn are considered useless. The idea of the thread is to change that. These guys are less powerful, but *vastly8 cheaper and fit into the Guard style better, IMHO. I freely admit that there could well be better options. This was just me trying o feel out where they should be.