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Hey all, was about to build a squad of devastators when I started to wonder about the tactical viability of 9 devastators with heavy bolters against armies like Tyranids and Orks. This prompted me to think about how devastators should be ran against each army, whether you join them with an IC or cast psychic powers on them or give them a transport and started to wonder whether dakka would like to join the discussion?

My big issue with Devs is their lack of mobility.
I used to run 2 x 5 man units of Long Fangs but found them just sitting in bunkers/terrain getting either picked off or over run.
They never seemed to make their points back and with every loss their firepower diminishes significantly.
I never tried them with an IC though or psychic shenanigans so they might help.

I have tried to run devastator and I see several problems:

- The firepower they put out relative to their price tag is ... insufficient by lack of a better term. For a similar price tag to a 5-man 4-weapon squad you can usually buy (in points) a thunderfire cannon, a triple las predator or 2-3 whirlwinds. And in many cases the damage output of those units is better at their respective fields, or at least it feels to me.

- Mobility is crippling. The alternatives I mentioned earlier can fire indirectly, reducing the impact of a line of sight and thus the need for mobility, or are vehicles that can move and shoot.

- Devastators do not really feel much tougher than their alternatives, and those have mobility or indirect fire to compensate.

It feels to me that more often than not GW does not really take into account the disadvantages of assigning heavy weapons to infantry.

Captain Spitzenberg wrote:
I have tried to run devastator and I see several problems:

- The firepower they put out relative to their price tag is ... insufficient by lack of a better term. For a similar price tag to a 5-man 4-weapon squad you can usually buy (in points) a thunderfire cannon, a triple las predator or 2-3 whirlwinds. And in many cases the damage output of those units is better at their respective fields, or at least it feels to me.

- Mobility is crippling. The alternatives I mentioned earlier can fire indirectly, reducing the impact of a line of sight and thus the need for mobility, or are vehicles that can move and shoot.

- Devastators do not really feel much tougher than their alternatives, and those have mobility or indirect fire to compensate.

It feels to me that more often than not GW does not really take into account the disadvantages of assigning heavy weapons to infantry.

Well, the best Devastor is the one holding Grav Cannons in Skyhammer Annilation formation. This solve all But the last problem you stated above. Allowing them to have more than decent firepower, appear anywhere on the board, and bascially the best alpha strike potential.

If you attach a cahpheract TDA captain, he give them S&P for mobility, and can tank wounds for the squad. It’s a bit gimmicky, so might not last, but works at the moment. Works best with grav cannons, but MMs can fill in a pinch if points are tight.

There are a lot of places to get anti-infantry firepower as marines. Less spots to stick AV stuff. Especially in formations. So I generally advocate 4xLC. Might not be perfect, but it works. And doesn’t require any tricks or outside buffs/characters to do it’s job. This is your classic camp in a ruins somewhere and take pot shots build.

Running a 5 man squad in a rhino, and shooting 2 grav cannons out the top hatch is not a terrible plan. Especially if the rhino is free from a full company gladius. Or you are using the formation that requires them to start embarked.

I could see the 4xHB dev squad in a Fists list, just to fill the slot. Bolter drill helps, and tanks hunter will lets the HBs take down very light vehicles. Of which there are a few out there. Low points, looks cool, fluffy.

Nevelon covered most of it to be honest, but there's 1 other time that heavy bolters can shine, and that when you stick storm of fire on them. Rending really helps heavy bolters since they've got the range and number of shots to be a threat to much of the board while they've got an OK AP value and on the low end of mid str where rending actually matters against vehicles.

Other than that, heavy bolters don't really see much use since things with a 4+ or les generally rely on either cover or invulnerable saves for protection and str 5, while nice, is nothing to write home about since you're spending a heavy support slot to add a small amount of anti infantry fire in an army that is usually overflowing with bolter fire already. You can make them better against thing like Tau, 'Nids and Orks if they're running infantry list with things like ignores cover from a psycher, but a) there's very little infantry in those armies these days sadly and b ) your psychers can probably benefit another squad better compared to boosting some devastators.

Cataphractii captain with grav devs is probably the most optimal, especially since both are a mandatory pick in the gladius. "Buy" them a pod and drop them in or "buy" them a razorback that they'll never use and wander up the field.

- Heavy bolters have a very niche place in a skyhammer if you want/need pinning checks at a longer range than the traditional grac/melta set up that is normally the load out. Every time you reach for a heavy bolter dev squad, stop and think if a thunderfire cannon couldn't do just as much or more damage to your intended target for less points and higher toughness.
- Missiles are pretty junk since AP3 can't explode a vehicle unless it's open topped and you can't scatch units with a 2+ and 15 points per is steep for something that can't punch through 2+ armour nor reliably deal with vehicles. Flakk missiles are a terrible joke and aren't a real threat to any FMC other than Harpies and Crones or maybe a tau flier.
- Lascannons get a minor pass since they're AP2 and have decent range so they can camp a ruin and get the job done on vehicles and/or MC's, but 20 points per is a steep price for a single shot weapon.
- Plasma cannons are pretty bad, small blast and gets hot? No thanks, not unless you've got coteaz and an opponent who's heavy on the deep strikers, and quite possilby not even then.
- Grav cannons are only really viable in the skyhammer or in conjunction with the cata captain since 3 shots at 12" isn't really threatening anyone and you're going to get charged next round and your 49 point models are now stuck in melee or dead.
- Multi meltas have good utility against MC's or multi wound T4 while being deadly against vehicles, and while they're single shot weapons, they're only 10 points per and youn don't need many shots to take out even the heaviest vehicles or buildings so they are the worst thing ever, but a 12" melta range and being heavy weapons, they too are relegated to skyhammer or cata captain for effective use.

Devastators are most useful in small games where the ability to put down multiple heavy weapons for less than the base price of many competing units comes into play and where you don't have to worry about superheavies and deathstar units. A hundred-point two-gun Devastator unit in a 500pt game is a solid backfield objective camper that can provide useful support for the rest of your army, it's a formation tax or an easily-swatted nuisance in a 1,500pt game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cassor the Damned wrote:
Hey all, was about to build a squad of devastators when I started to wonder about the tactical viability of 9 devastators with heavy bolters against armies like Tyranids and Orks. This prompted me to think about how devastators should be ran against each army, whether you join them with an IC or cast psychic powers on them or give them a transport and started to wonder whether dakka would like to join the discussion?

On more specific questions Divination powers are better/more efficient applied to Sternguard/allied Deathwatch/Centurions in most situations, but can make regular Devastators totally usable in less competitive situations. ICs don't usually help unless they're a Librarian (for Divination powers) or a Cataphractii Captain (for S&P on a forward-playing unit), I don't know all the Badab ICs off the top of my head but none of the Codex ICs help much. Dedicated Transports are almost useless since they count as moving if the vehicle moved (and you can't put a Cataphractii Captain in with them in a Rhino); a Razorback is a few bonus guns, a Rhino can be borrowed by an allied squad that doesn't have a better transport of their own (unlikely, but Sisters of Silence don't have their own vehicles right now), but generally transports aren't helpful outside of formations.

As for fighting Orks/Tyranids specifically heavy bolters are a reasonable choice but you might want to actually consider missile launchers; small blasts get a lot of bad press but they let you engage swarms with very low chance of missing, S8/AP3 is more than enough against open-topped AV10 vehicles, and they're actually a reasonably effective tool for handling ground-bound MCs with 3+ or worse armour (which are only really found in Tyranids and Daemons, and only barely in Daemons). Most of the time grav-cannons are a more effective choice but if there are low-armoured models on the table alongside the big stompy ones the missile launcher is useful against more of it.

A unit of Heavy Bolter Devestators would be pretty good against Orks, perhaps not the single best way to get anti-infantry shooting into your list but it will definitely be good. Against a Walker list or a Battlewagon list it wouldn't be great but anything else would find it worrisome. Against Tyranids I imagine it would be even better as you won't be running into any vehicles at all and they can (probably) take wounds off anything on the board. I will say that a unit of Missile Launcher or Autocannon Devestators would probably be more effective however.

xlDuke wrote:
A unit of Heavy Bolter Devestators would be pretty good against Orks, perhaps not the single best way to get anti-infantry shooting into your list but it will definitely be good. Against a Walker list or a Battlewagon list it wouldn't be great but anything else would find it worrisome. Against Tyranids I imagine it would be even better as you won't be running into any vehicles at all and they can (probably) take wounds off anything on the board. I will say that a unit of Missile Launcher or Autocannon Devestators would probably be more effective however.

All the infantry Autocannons got stolen by the Traitor Legions, unfortunately.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
A unit of Heavy Bolter Devestators would be pretty good against Orks, perhaps not the single best way to get anti-infantry shooting into your list but it will definitely be good. Against a Walker list or a Battlewagon list it wouldn't be great but anything else would find it worrisome. Against Tyranids I imagine it would be even better as you won't be running into any vehicles at all and they can (probably) take wounds off anything on the board. I will say that a unit of Missile Launcher or Autocannon Devestators would probably be more effective however.

All the infantry Autocannons got stolen by the Traitor Legions, unfortunately.

Well those guys really were naughty! Thanks for the information, I had no idea.

Loyalists got all the grav though and we'd happily trade!

two grav cannons in a Rhino.

Haemotrope Reactors may have made Plasma Cannon Devastators a thing now. Being able to drop a butt load of AP2 large blasts on the field is pretty awesome.

That might actually be okay on Imperial Fists. I haven't done any research on that new fortification though.

If you're running a Gladius, then just taking an Armorium Cherub and a single Grav Cannon will be enough. Khan gives Scout/Outflank, the Grav Cannon hits on BS 5, and gets to reroll independently from popping a Combat Tactics doctrine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That might actually be okay on Imperial Fists. I haven't done any research on that new fortification though.

It increases shot weapons to small blasts and small blasts to large blasts. It does Get Hot on 1s and 2s though.

I have occasionally run a 10-man dev squad in a Lion's Blade (single demi company only) with 2 Gravcannons and 2 Lascannons, with a dedicated Rhino. One combat squad takes the 2 Lascannons and the Sarge and camps in ruins, the Gravcannons and the other 3 bolter mooks take the Rhino and position themselves near the middle of the board, ready to shoot the following turn. It's not the greatest setup, but it has worked okay for me before.

I play with Imperial Fists tactics (so Tank Hunter for Devastators) and I often take Devastators as part of a Battle Demi-Company formation, most often in a Sternhammer detachment. 4 missile launchers is my favorite load out, as it can threaten light armor, flyers, and infantry of all sorts. 2 Lascannon, 2 Plasma cannon in a 10-man squad that I then split into two combat squads both with two of the same heavy weapon is also good, as it allows me to cover a wide area of the board and use each weapon against its preferred target.'

I've also tried 4 Lascannon which is a simple solution for heavy firepower, 2 Gravcannon in a Rhino which is good for mobility and to take advantage of the free transports in the Gladius Strike Force, and 4 heavy bolters which is decent but not really necessary as most Space Marine armies are full of ways to kill infantry. Better to take something with low AP.

Devastators like Techmarines, because they like to hide in terrain for a cover save and Techmarines can boost that cover save. You can also take a Captain with the relic boltgun and stick him at the front of the squad to soak fire while he shoots stuff with the boltgun.

That's a terrible way to use an HQ with The Primarch's Wrath.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's a terrible way to use an HQ with The Primarch's Wrath.

How many ITC events have you placed in using it? Because it's happened a couple of times for me.

 Saber wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's a terrible way to use an HQ with The Primarch's Wrath.

How many ITC events have you placed in using it? Because it's happened a couple of times for me.

Oh look a classic Appeal to authority.

If you want an HQ with that Primarch's Wrath, throw them in a Centurion squad of any kind with the Omniscope. Split Fire lets you pick appropriate targets between the two types of Centurions and the HQ, and if you have a Chapter Master you get to point the Orbital Bombardment elsewhere. Even though you have a ranged weapon all our HQ s have melee stats. Yes, even the Tech Marine.

Oh look, trying to describe citing evidence as a logical fallacy. Did you learn rhetoric from hip internet sources?

Your idea sounds cool and I might have to give it a spin if I pick up Centurions some day. My way of using an HG is certainly not the most cutthroat efficient way, but if I was going for that I would have an entirely different army build. I like having an HQ around with my Devastators to keep them from running away and to protect them in assault. For Imperial Fists, especially in a Sternhammer, the overwatch fire from the relic bolter can be sneaky effective.

 Saber wrote:
Oh look, trying to describe citing evidence as a logical fallacy.

That would be an anecdote, not evidence.

However, you've posted some interesting ideas so we'll let it slide.

Using the free rhinos as a mobile bunker for 2x Plasma Cannons or Grav, while combat squading a pair of Missile Launchers or Lascannons isn't something I've considered before now.

Thanks!

Sons of Dorn!

 kronk wrote:

 Saber wrote:
Oh look, trying to describe citing evidence as a logical fallacy.

That would be an anecdote, not evidence.

However, you've posted some interesting ideas so we'll let it slide.

Using the free rhinos as a mobile bunker for 2x Plasma Cannons or Grav, while combat squading a pair of Missile Launchers or Lascannons isn't something I've considered before now.

Thanks!

Sons of Dorn!

With formations the idea of combat squadding has a lot more traction then it used to. Before, you were generally better off just taking a second squad. Now, you might only have one slot in your list for a HS-type squad, so this gets you more MSU and more things to shoot.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
A unit of Heavy Bolter Devestators would be pretty good against Orks, perhaps not the single best way to get anti-infantry shooting into your list but it will definitely be good. Against a Walker list or a Battlewagon list it wouldn't be great but anything else would find it worrisome. Against Tyranids I imagine it would be even better as you won't be running into any vehicles at all and they can (probably) take wounds off anything on the board. I will say that a unit of Missile Launcher or Autocannon Devestators would probably be more effective however.

All the infantry Autocannons got stolen by the Traitor Legions, unfortunately.

Not all! I've found a nice niche in my army for the 2x twin linked auto dreads. It's not the best option, but due to the meta in my game group it works out just fine.

Hey guys, just wondering whether it would be petter to have 5 sternguard in a pod with combimelta or 5 devs with lascannons?

Cassor the Damned wrote:
Hey guys, just wondering whether it would be petter to have 5 sternguard in a pod with combimelta or 5 devs with lascannons?

Sternguard for sure. Once they pop whatever they will pop with their Combi-Meltas, they can proceed to do some crowd-control while on the move using their Special Issue Ammunition. Lascannon Devs don't belong in Drop Pods since they don't need to be up close. Not to mention, they would suck first turn since they would be snap-shooting at everything. After first turn, they would either need to stay put or continue snap-shooting if they wanted to move.

I think he means the sternguard in a pod or the devs deployed in a ruin for his tank hunting needs.

Depends on the number on tanks you need to shoot. If you need to shoot many tanks, then las devs, if you only need to pop one or two, then sternguard. Alternatively, if you need to pop lots of tanks, then lots of sternguard.

That is what I meant thank you

Do people tend to use las devs for anti tank or is melta/tri las pred/land raider always a better option?

Cassor the Damned wrote:
That is what I meant thank you

Do people tend to use las devs for anti tank or is melta/tri las pred/land raider always a better option?

There are pros and cons to each.

Tanks do well when saturated. If you are running a very mech heavy list, you strain the AV of your opponent, and things last longer. If you only have one tank, it’s going to be the target of every big gun on the other side until it dies.

They are vulnerable to different kinds of fire. You shoot a melta gun at a dev squad, you might kill one guy. The rest of the squad can still fire at full. The pred might be rubble. You drop a pie plate on the dev squad, bad things can happen. The pred just takes one hit.

Devs are more vulnerable to small arms, and can be locked in CC.

Devs get chapter tactics, which generally gives them some tricks, but not all are relevant.

How they fit into formations is a big one these days. Anything with demi-co in the title is probably going to require a dev squad at the minimum. While preds do have some formations, they are generally not as easy to work into a formation-based list.

(I’ve been mostly thinking about dev/preds here, but the melta sternguard has a number of similar pros and cons)

I’ve used all of the above to good effect and enjoyed them. They are all valid choices and can get the job done. The most relevant question is how they fit into your list, and complement/support the rest of your force. Plus what you think looks coolest. All things being equal, go with the cool thing.