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as powerful as the Primarchs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
theres some debate for example that he surpasses Pre-Chaos or even Chaos fueled Horus in terms of pure power

No

Not even close.

He somehow killed Horus

Of all the people out there in the 40k galaxy, Abbadon is probably the closest to Primarch level. That said, he's still a fair shade of what they were.

He probably should be, but rules don't always reflect the fluff.

 godardc wrote:
He somehow killed Horus

Cloned Horus, I should have been more precise.

Never read the source, but presumably Cloned Horus didn't have his armor (obliterated by the Emperor), his weapons (Stolen by Abaddon), his soul (also obliterated by the Emperor) or his vast combat experience/memories (which would not be an element of his genetics, but more likely his soul... and see above).

It would still be an extremely impressive feat to take out even a cloned Primarch, given their histories of splattering any and all enemies they came across when initially emerging on their own planets (including but not limited to taking out a group of Dark Eldar unarmed), but I think the context puts Abaddon's feat into more reasonably badass levels, rather than silly I-can-beat-Primarchs levels.

I think his major problem is that gw don't actually handle him very well. In the HH, on one hand we are told that he is one of the top few warriors in hand to hand combat, and that everyone in the imperium knows his name and would mourn his loss, but we never actually see anything in the stories to back up these statements. Same in 40k, we are told that he is the single greatest threat to the imperium, but we have yet to see anything to really back that up either. We are told he is a powerhouse, but never shown it. His rules in either system don't help support the claims that he is as powerful as the telling.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Never read the source, but presumably Cloned Horus didn't have his armor (obliterated by the Emperor), his weapons (Stolen by Abaddon), his soul (also obliterated by the Emperor) or his vast combat experience/memories (which would not be an element of his genetics, but more likely his soul... and see above).

It would still be an extremely impressive feat to take out even a cloned Primarch, given their histories of splattering any and all enemies they came across when initially emerging on their own planets (including but not limited to taking out a group of Dark Eldar unarmed), but I think the context puts Abaddon's feat into more reasonably badass levels, rather than silly I-can-beat-Primarchs levels.

It's actually never even described as a fight AFAIK, it only mentions that Abaddon destroyed the clone. For all we know, it was a lifeless body in a vat.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Never read the source, but presumably Cloned Horus didn't have his armor (obliterated by the Emperor), his weapons (Stolen by Abaddon), his soul (also obliterated by the Emperor) or his vast combat experience/memories (which would not be an element of his genetics, but more likely his soul... and see above).

It would still be an extremely impressive feat to take out even a cloned Primarch, given their histories of splattering any and all enemies they came across when initially emerging on their own planets (including but not limited to taking out a group of Dark Eldar unarmed), but I think the context puts Abaddon's feat into more reasonably badass levels, rather than silly I-can-beat-Primarchs levels.

It's actually never even described as a fight AFAIK, it only mentions that Abaddon destroyed the clone. For all we know, it was a lifeless body in a vat.

That sounds like you haven't read Talon of Horus, as not only is the cloned Horus up and fighting, he manages to take down a hundred Rubricae Marines, thirty possessed marines, and a handful of World Eaters while simultaneously fighting off Abaddon and Khayon before Abaddon is able to put him down. In addition, the clone recognizes Abaddon and the history between them, so it clearly has some aspect of Horus's true memory.

Maybe, but I'd be skeptical.

jareddm wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Never read the source, but presumably Cloned Horus didn't have his armor (obliterated by the Emperor), his weapons (Stolen by Abaddon), his soul (also obliterated by the Emperor) or his vast combat experience/memories (which would not be an element of his genetics, but more likely his soul... and see above).

It would still be an extremely impressive feat to take out even a cloned Primarch, given their histories of splattering any and all enemies they came across when initially emerging on their own planets (including but not limited to taking out a group of Dark Eldar unarmed), but I think the context puts Abaddon's feat into more reasonably badass levels, rather than silly I-can-beat-Primarchs levels.

It's actually never even described as a fight AFAIK, it only mentions that Abaddon destroyed the clone. For all we know, it was a lifeless body in a vat.

That sounds like you haven't read Talon of Horus, as not only is the cloned Horus up and fighting, he manages to take down a hundred Rubricae Marines, thirty possessed marines, and a handful of World Eaters while simultaneously fighting off Abaddon and Khayon before Abaddon is able to put him down. In addition, the clone recognizes Abaddon and the history between them, so it clearly has some aspect of Horus's true memory.

Ah, someone who's read it!

Was Horus naked? What was he armed with when he was killed by Abaddon? Did Abaddon have Drach'nyen at that time?

Were there more than the above forces fighting the Horus Clone, or were they all killed before Clone Horus was put down by Abaddon?

When Abaddon killed the Horus Clone, was the Horus Clone injured from his previous fighting?

How did Clone Horus establish that he and Abaddon had a shared history?

I appreciate you adding context to the fight. Depending on your answers, it could both legitimize Abaddon's badassery (Though Clone Horus may not be quite the same being as the true Horus, what with his comparative lack of the same warp-infused soul, his ability to kill THAT many, including ~30 possessed marines, would put him at a very impressive level alone) and limit it (depending on the context of Abaddon's kill and the state of Clone Horus at the time Abaddon got the kill shot, it might be far less impressive than if Abaddon had soloed the real Horus).

Regarding the memories and apparent shared history... Given that the Emperor literally destroyed Horus' soul, isn't it possible that the Horus Clone didn't actually have "some aspect of Horus's true memory" but could instead have planted memories?

Cheers!

To me, a big part of Abaddon's 'bad assery' is that he has the Black Legion behind him (and a bunch of favours to call from even more treacherous scum.)

Abaddon managing to keep these punks motivated and in line, and using them to kill Horus clones (possibly even Rogal Dorn also) makes him more compelling to me than if he simply toe to toe soloed these top tier opponents.

Abaddon may be the one who always takes the point, but he has resources, knows how to use them (otherwise he would never get to the point to take it)!

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Ah, someone who's read it!

I'll do my best. Much of this is from memory but I'll check my copy when I get home tonight.

Was Horus naked? What was he armed with when he was killed by Abaddon? Did Abaddon have Drach'nyen at that time?

It's important to understand that Fabius Bile did not create the Horus clone from scratch. The Emperor's Children had just ended a century-long inter-legion war with a decisive strike on the Sons of Horus monument of Maleum. They stole Horus's body, his armor, and Worldbreaker, all of which the Sons of Horus had kept in reverent stasis at Maleum.
The clone itself was grown using very robust samples taken directly from Horus's body, which is why it was the most successful of any of Fabius's clones (Abaddon and co. walk past large tubes containing partially-developed clones of all of the primarchs).
When the fight occurs, Horus is decked out in repaired armor and has Worldbreaker. Abaddon does not have Drach'nyen but he does have the Talon of Horus.

Were there more than the above forces fighting the Horus Clone, or were they all killed before Clone Horus was put down by Abaddon?

There were a few others who participated directly in the fight with Horus. Most of them were the leaders of the forces listed above. These included Khayon, a formerly high-ranking Thousand Sons sorcerer who led the Rubricae Marines, Nefertari, a Dark Eldar scourge and bodyguard/servant of Khayon, Gyre, Khayon's tutelary, Falkus Kibre, who led the possessed Sons of Horus, Lheore, who led the World Eaters, Telemachon, an Emperor's Children duelist, and Sargon, a Word Bearers psyker. Khayon had just finished enacting Abaddon's assault on the Emperor's Children's base, known as Canticle City. The attack consisting of dragging an entire strike cruiser through the warp, behind the Vengeful Spirit, and then launching it straight at the base from orbit, an action so strenuous it left Khayon in a near comatose state and at a fraction of his power for quite awhile afterwards, including during the Horus fight. Fabius was in a vessel that was attempting to escape the base and it was the above force that boarded the vessel.

When Abaddon killed the Horus Clone, was the Horus Clone injured from his previous fighting?

No. The above force all attacked as one. There were no "waves of successively harder enemies" this time. Horus swatted away most of them with relative ease, but they still all fought alongside Abaddon at the same time. Abaddon goaded Horus into attacking him by displaying the Talon of Horus prominently, triggering even further memories of the weapon in the clone Horus. It was really the strength of the Talon of Horus which was able to break through both Worldbreaker and Horus's armor, as well as Abaddon's ability to use the strengths of his allies competently and Horus's own memories against him that allowed him to get the killing blow.

How did Clone Horus establish that he and Abaddon had a shared history?

The Horus clone calls Abaddon out by name before they're even introduced. Khayon mentions looking into Horus's eyes and seeing the tinges of memories returning. It's possible that these might be memories implanted by Fabius. It's also possible that part of Horus's soul was somehow regenerating within the new body, or even possibly the flesh itself retaining some memory, perhaps related to how the Omophagea works. In any case, Horus at least knew who he was facing.

Do I personally think the Horus clone was as powerful as the original Horus? No.
Do I think the Horus clone could've held its own against and possibly even beat a real primarch? Yes, some of them.

Lastly, Khayon makes mention that over the following millennias, the story of Abaddon fighting the cloned Horus would grow larger and larger, until the tale becomes of them battling one on one on the battlements of a castle in the pouring rain as endless armies clashed below them. None of that happened in practice but Abaddon doesn't keep the stories from growing.

Horus' body? I thought the fluff had it long established that the Emperor vaporised him in their final conflict. He completely destroyed his body, and soul.

Seeing as how he can hardly keep his hands to himself i would say not even close

 djones520 wrote:
Horus' body? I thought the fluff had it long established that the Emperor vaporised him in their final conflict. He completely destroyed his body, and soul.

Just the soul. The body was very much still there. You think the Talon of Horus would've still been there if he was hit by something that could obliterate the body?

Why do people put one half of their sentence



As to the question, being blessed by all four the Chaos Gods, Abbaddon may be as powerful if not more powerful than a Primarch. Remember that he was able to kill a clone of Horus.
But there is no way he is as powerful as Horus was when he was blessed by Chaos.