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we know M'shen defeated Curze

and we know Calldius Assasisns are in many ways superior to reuglar Astartes

could 18 assassins defeat the 18 primarchs if it went down to an all-out battle

Not a single chance. What you need to understand is that Curze let himself be killed. He did not want to live anymore. If he actually fought back he would have easily destroyed M'shen.

Zero chance for the assassins. Like zero minus one actually.
I doubt 18 of them could even take someone like Sangy or Angron.

LightKing wrote:
we know M'shen defeated Curze

This is kind of incorrect. Curze didn't fight back. If he had then M'shen would have died.

A Primarch would take down an assassin from any of the Temples.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
we know M'shen defeated Curze

This is kind of incorrect. Curze didn't fight back. If he had then M'shen would have died.

A Primarch would take down an assassin from any of the Temples.

but wasn't M'shen, i believe is said that she was the best of the callidus assassins

are you still saying Curze would of effortlessly stomped her?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im just confused about a Primarch's overall power level, because it's inconsistent some time

what is the general consensus...

a primarch equals 4-5 astartes, would that be fair to say or something like that?

With their tendencies to not wear helmet, you'd have to put a Vindicare in a good spot, and use the blank assassins to take weaken the psyker primarchs.

4-5 astartes? Are you serious or are you just making up numbers?

And who cares of M'shen was the best or worst of Assassins? Curze literally did not fight back. It doesn't matter.

LightKing wrote:

but wasn't M'shen, i believe is said that she was the best of the callidus assassins

are you still saying Curze would of effortlessly stomped her?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im just confused about a Primarch's overall power level, because it's inconsistent some time

what is the general consensus...

a primarch equals 4-5 astartes, would that be fair to say or something like that?

Yes Curze would have stomped her.

Primarchs are indeed inconsistent but in general they'll beat anything other than the most powerful Greater Daemons or the Emperor in a one on one. They are depicted as capable of taking on dozens of Marines. Marines pretty much never threaten them unless it's in an ambush.

Bobthehero wrote:With their tendencies to not wear helmet, you'd have to put a Vindicare in a good spot, and use the blank assassins to take weaken the psyker primarchs.

To be fair an Exitus Rifle should penetrate pretty much any helmet anyway (barring forcefields).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
[Curze didn't fight back. If he had then M'shen would have died.

The whole point of an assassin is to not let you fight back. Especially, a Callidus is all about infiltrating, striking by surprise and killing the victim before it can react. So, yeah, I guess the primarchs that don't have precog power could be killed if the assassin was able to set up a suitable trap. Like, say, making their ship fly straight in a star, or something else suitably assassinating.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
[Curze didn't fight back. If he had then M'shen would have died.

The whole point of an assassin is to not let you fight back. Especially, a Callidus is all about infiltrating, striking by surprise and killing the victim before it can react. So, yeah, I guess the primarchs that don't have precog power could be killed if the assassin was able to set up a suitable trap. Like, say, making their ship fly straight in a star, or something else suitably assassinating.

I think Primarchs are of such a tier above everything barring the most powerful beings that even an assassin might not kill a Primarch in an ambush. Weaken, wound, maim, injure, but I doubt one could be killed - unless one used unconventional methods - like a hidden Exterminatus device or Warp implosion.

 Bobthehero wrote:
With their tendencies to not wear helmet, you'd have to put a Vindicare in a good spot, and use the blank assassins to take weaken the psyker primarchs.

In the novel A Thousand Sons, Magnus and his Legion stands in an area that COMPLETELY deprives them of their power, actually preventing the world of becoming a Daemon World IIRC and sealing and immensely powerful demonic entity/energy. But Magnus isn't even remotely affected by the "Null" effect, so you'd need quite an important Culexus assassin strike force to incapacitate him to any extent, and assuming it works at all you would still face a Primarch in directcombat.

No, see, you'd have the blanks blank out Magnus and a Vindicare headshotting him from a mile and half and then some away.

One... There no blank that could take out Magnus level power.

And curze example is flawed in fact he wanted to die...

Short of a perfect ambush, the odds are insanely low.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

The whole point of an assassin is to not let you fight back. Especially, a Callidus is all about infiltrating, striking by surprise and killing the victim before it can react. So, yeah, I guess the primarchs that don't have precog power could be killed if the assassin was able to set up a suitable trap. Like, say, making their ship fly straight in a star, or something else suitably assassinating.

Fair point (though he did bring up M'shen beating Curze specifically). Hijacking a spaceship a Primarch is on would be incredibly difficult with the number of crew. Even if the captain was impersonated people would be hesitant to fly into a star. Warp drive overload could theoretically work but Primarchs seem to have generally been on big ships. Too many people to notice and intervene.

Do Primarchs actually sleep?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

The whole point of an assassin is to not let you fight back. Especially, a Callidus is all about infiltrating, striking by surprise and killing the victim before it can react. So, yeah, I guess the primarchs that don't have precog power could be killed if the assassin was able to set up a suitable trap. Like, say, making their ship fly straight in a star, or something else suitably assassinating.

Fair point (though he did bring up M'shen beating Curze specifically). Hijacking a spaceship a Primarch is on would be incredibly difficult with the number of crew. Even if the captain was impersonated people would be hesitant to fly into a star. Warp drive overload could theoretically work but Primarchs seem to have generally been on big ships. Too many people to notice and intervene.

Do Primarchs actually sleep?

While it is in my knowledge never explicitly said that they do, Horus' private quarters in the Vengeful Spirit is described as furnished with a bed.

There were many assassination attempts (including by combined strike forces of all the different temples) at Primarchs during the Horus Heresy, and all of them failed. That should say enough. Taking out a demigod guarded by tens of thousands of superhuman warriors is just something that is a bit too difficult to have a realistic chance of success.

I'm not sure how well this would support the possibility of a Callidus Assassin being able to kill a Primarch, BUT...

In Legion, a Lucifer Black goes toe to toe with Alpharius (or Omegon, or an oversized Alpha Legionnaire) and his swordsmanship is good enough that he's able to wound Alpharius, sticking him through the torso. Unfortunately, the sword gets stuck and Alpharius proceeds to kill him.

Assuming that A) a Callidus Assassin is superior in close combat to a Lucifer Black - or that specific Lucifer Black and B) a C'tan phase sword is less than likely to get stuck, I would believe that a Callidus Assassin could kill a Primarch who isn't all to known for his melee capacity. So Alpharius Omegon, Guilliman and Lorgar would be killed probably?

 Bobthehero wrote:
With their tendencies to not wear helmet, you'd have to put a Vindicare in a good spot, and use the blank assassins to take weaken the psyker primarchs.

In 40k, not wearing a helmet actually makes you far more likely to survive.
Wearing a helmet makes you a faceless mook, and therefore likely to be killed before the end of the story. Not wearing a helmet makes you a character, giving you plot armour.

Some of the Emperor's Children captains captured their own Primarch and tortured him to save him.
It's in the EC omnibus.
But after the fight Fulgrim said it was planned, etc etc

M'shen was killed by a Night Lord - that is, a non-Primarch - after she killed Curze. That alone should tell you everything.

She performed well in the initial melee until the Astartes (who was named Talos Valcoran) roared and his helmet amplified it to the level where it made the M'shen's eardrums burst. Disoriented, she was easy prey.

 Bobthehero wrote:
With their tendencies to not wear helmet, you'd have to put a Vindicare in a good spot, and use the blank assassins to take weaken the psyker primarchs.

Fulgrim survived a head-shot (although that was from a Raven Guard, not an Assassin)

The Primarchs have the best protection of all: plot armor.

They will not die unless GW demands they do for the sake of plot. That's why I find them boring as characters because I know they are never really threatened.

Curze has others have already said, wanted to die and basically let the assassin kill him after ordering everyone else to not intervene.

All other Primarchs aside from plot armor, also have all sorts of gimmicks whether it be artifacts, armor, psychic powers, rapid healing, etc... Actually landing a fatal hit is not easy. Sure they might get wounded but it is just cosmetic and as meaningless as the flesh wounds movie protagonists suffer.

LightKing wrote:
we know M'shen defeated Curze

could 18 assassins defeat the 18 primarchs if it went down to an all-out battle

In the Fluff, Kurze committed suicide by Callidus; he allowed her to kill him. Had he chosen to fight, she would have died immediately.

As this is a Fluff battle, not a chance.

 King Pariah wrote:
I'm not sure how well this would support the possibility of a Callidus Assassin being able to kill a Primarch, BUT...

In Legion, a Lucifer Black goes toe to toe with Alpharius (or Omegon, or an oversized Alpha Legionnaire) and his swordsmanship is good enough that he's able to wound Alpharius, sticking him through the torso. Unfortunately, the sword gets stuck and Alpharius proceeds to kill him.

Assuming that A) a Callidus Assassin is superior in close combat to a Lucifer Black - or that specific Lucifer Black and B) a C'tan phase sword is less than likely to get stuck, I would believe that a Callidus Assassin could kill a Primarch who isn't all to known for his melee capacity. So Alpharius Omegon, Guilliman and Lorgar would be killed probably?

I think that fight and the time a few Alpha Legion guys ambushed Guilliman are probably cases where primarch abilities were understated for the sake of the respective stories.

Engrenages wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

The whole point of an assassin is to not let you fight back. Especially, a Callidus is all about infiltrating, striking by surprise and killing the victim before it can react. So, yeah, I guess the primarchs that don't have precog power could be killed if the assassin was able to set up a suitable trap. Like, say, making their ship fly straight in a star, or something else suitably assassinating.

Fair point (though he did bring up M'shen beating Curze specifically). Hijacking a spaceship a Primarch is on would be incredibly difficult with the number of crew. Even if the captain was impersonated people would be hesitant to fly into a star. Warp drive overload could theoretically work but Primarchs seem to have generally been on big ships. Too many people to notice and intervene.

Do Primarchs actually sleep?

While it is in my knowledge never explicitly said that they do, Horus' private quarters in the Vengeful Spirit is described as furnished with a bed.

That would also require getting past the elite terminators who guard those areas.
And maybe first captains etc.

There security was tight.

Engrenages wrote:
While it is in my knowledge never explicitly said that they do, Horus' private quarters in the Vengeful Spirit is described as furnished with a bed.

Thanks. Probably less than people though (like SM in general seem to need less sleep). Still, it's a weakness.

Though I suspect Primarchs would all have the "wake up before anyone hits them whilst they're sleeping" trick important characters have.

Iron_Captain wrote:Wearing a helmet makes you a faceless mook, and therefore likely to be killed before the end of the story. Not wearing a helmet makes you a character, giving you plot armour.

Tell that to Kharn.

According to the very old Fluff, SMs get 4 hours rest per night. Also, 15 minutes free time per day!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
According to the very old Fluff, SMs get 4 hours rest per night. Also, 15 minutes free time per day!

Soooo... General McChrystal is a Space Marine?

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
I'm not sure how well this would support the possibility of a Callidus Assassin being able to kill a Primarch, BUT...

In Legion, a Lucifer Black goes toe to toe with Alpharius (or Omegon, or an oversized Alpha Legionnaire) and his swordsmanship is good enough that he's able to wound Alpharius, sticking him through the torso. Unfortunately, the sword gets stuck and Alpharius proceeds to kill him.

Assuming that A) a Callidus Assassin is superior in close combat to a Lucifer Black - or that specific Lucifer Black and B) a C'tan phase sword is less than likely to get stuck, I would believe that a Callidus Assassin could kill a Primarch who isn't all to known for his melee capacity. So Alpharius Omegon, Guilliman and Lorgar would be killed probably?

I think that fight and the time a few Alpha Legion guys ambushed Guilliman are probably cases where primarch abilities were understated for the sake of the respective stories.

Understated? It was a 10 man hand picked squad who ambushed an unarmed/armored Guilliman in his inner sanctum were he was least expecting to be attacked. He still killed them all.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Though I suspect Primarchs would all have the "wake up before anyone hits them whilst they're sleeping" trick important characters have.

Iron_Captain wrote:Wearing a helmet makes you a faceless mook, and therefore likely to be killed before the end of the story. Not wearing a helmet makes you a character, giving you plot armour.

Tell that to Kharn.

Kharn's just a strong proponent of the 2nd amendment. The right to bare arms shall not be infringed.