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If you could assault straight from deepstrike alot of shooting based armies would be screwed full stop.

Pod assault would become the new tournament standard list with ease.
While overwatch helps, you can only overwatch once per unit and a tank doesn't even get that, barring a few specific ones which can.

Daemons would actually become useful from the drop as you don't have to weather a turn of shooting, followed by overwatch when you do get to assault, providing the units not dead already.



While its not like the fluff, its there for balance.
If the game strictly followed fluff as its rules it would be an even bigger mess than it is currently.

 TheLumberJack wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Why are you assaulting with a unit that can take damage? If you want to play an assault army, there are plenty of deathstars out there that can take 10k points of tau shooting and lose 1 guy. 'Oh, but I don't want to play a deathstar I just want to bounce a unit of Khorne berzerkers from combat to combat with guaranteed charge distance and no overwatch!' Yeah well, I want Pure Sisters to win the LVO, but that's not gonna happen.

Is your reasoning that if someone wants to play a viable assault unit they should just play a different army that has a deathstar?

My reasoning is that complaining about assault as a whole and pissing and moaning over your codex being bad seem to get mixed up a lot. There are plenty of CQC strategies that work very well, heck a guy just won warzone atlanta with 0 shooting against frickin tau'nars. The problem is that people want their favorite close combat unit to be the good one and when they aren't they complain about assault as a whole.

You don't see people complaining about how weak the shooting phase because Whirlwinds, or Celestians, or predators or, forgefiends are bad. The people that want those things to be better can look out and see scatbikes and riptides and go 'oh, maybe making shooting better wouldn't be the best option, maybe I'd rather my forgefiend be bs4.'

Meanwhile assault players deliberatly ignore the fact that deathstars exist and call for changes that would make them even stronger.

Look all I'm saying is that before you suggest a buff to assault, maybe think about what an invisible cabal star with ironhand and endurance could do with that change.

The abuse a deepstriking deathstar could put out would be plain stupid if they could charge straight in.


While suggesting something is fine and all, there is always a ripple effect that takes place, opening up more grey areas and loopholes to be abused.

So making assault from DS is one thing for a basic unit, but you then need to fast forward ahead and think about what else will be making use of it.

You know guys don't *have* to get out of a Kharybdis, right? Same for a Dreadclaw.

We need some assault from arrival again with balance. Shooting army's have become the only viable option at this point and it's boring.

"You don't see people complaining about how weak the shooting phase because Whirlwinds, or Celestians, or predators or, forgefiends are bad. "

I complain about Imperial shooting frequently.

Martel732 wrote:
"You don't see people complaining about how weak the shooting phase because Whirlwinds, or Celestians, or predators or, forgefiends are bad. "

I complain about Imperial shooting frequently.

Yeah. You complain that Imperial shooting is bad (not sure why, SM and AdMech are around poking fun at that thesis). Not that the Shooting phase is bad.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"You don't see people complaining about how weak the shooting phase because Whirlwinds, or Celestians, or predators or, forgefiends are bad. "

I complain about Imperial shooting frequently.

Yeah. You complain that Imperial shooting is bad (not sure why, SM and AdMech are around poking fun at that thesis). Not that the Shooting phase is bad.

Because SM are codex: grav cannon for shooting efficacy. All their other weapons are basically trash. Admech, I don't have that much experience with. All your standard imperial weapons are awful or on awful platforms compared to their xeno counterparts. The marines, in theory, at least have some choppy to make up for this, but IG just take it up the ass.

 Kriswall wrote:
I look at it this way...

Terminators teleporting in from the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: The air becomes charged. Your hair stands on end. You feel a flash of light and a distinct pressure as displaced air assaults you. As the dust settles, you look up to see Terminators standing where none stood before.

And they need your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle.

Right this is getting Way Way off point this is not a debate club for disgruntled assault phazers. This is a very specific question. which I shall now repose.

A unit arrives from reserves in a transport vehicle which has both the Deep Strike special rule and the Assault Vehicle special rule. Should they be allowed to charge an enemy unit if they disembark that turn, if not why not?

Dont forget we're pay a lot more points for a Dreadclaw tha a vanilla drop pod, and huge amount more for they're not worth the points without being able to use both those special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KharnsRightHand makes an exeleent point the Kharybdis and Dreadclaw are drop assault boats rather than pods and can move around after arival and can be re-embarked. But in the modern shooty game.

But the only way they're worth their points is if they get an assault out a quick assault. it is sole purpose they were designed for.

Then I'll re post my answer.

Assaulting straight out of deepstrike is a big deal.
It can cripple most armies with ease.
More so against tanks being assaulted as they don't get overwatch against it.

Essentially any army with access to assault based pods (marines) can now drop in a CC unit capable of killing the intended target with ease, with no fear of losing the unit anymore.

Yes overwatch exists, but BS1 shooting against a unit with T4 and 2+ or 3+ isn't going to do a thing.

It's too close to AoS tactics which really are just plain stupid.



With drop pod assault half are hitting the table turn 1.
Meaning most pod based armies are running 8+ pods.
So your essentially having 4 units shoved in your face before you can do a thing.

Podding grav was bad enough for some armies, but with this aswell?
It's too much.





If they bring this in then every army needs a warp quake type ability to deal with it.

I don't get the big deal with assaulting from deep strike. After all You can get shot of the table turn 1 either by units arriving from deep strike or by units still in your deployment zone

Assaulting straight out of deepstrike is a big deal.
It can cripple most armies with ease.
More so against tanks being assaulted as they don't get overwatch against it.

Shooting straight out of deepstrike is a big deal.
It can cripple most armies with ease.
More so against tanks being shot as they don't get (overwatch) against it.

"If they bring this in then every army needs a warp quake type ability to deal with it."

More easy win buttons for shooting lists? Gotcha.

You can't overwatch against shooting anyway, that's always been there so your point really doesn't do alot.

But giving the ability to assault out of DS aswell means you can pretty much auto delete any units on your first turn.

Tau players wouldn't have an army after turn 1, not one of any use anyway as any decent units would either be dead or locked in combat.



Tyranids would love to make use of this.
The ability for assaulting when you arrive would be huge for them.
But for armies without access to this (anyone but marines) it screws them even more.



I just get a bit fed up of every "fix" only working on 1 or 2 specific armies, rather than the ones that really need the help.

As it stands pods already drop off one of the best weapons in the game.
Without risk of DS mishap, straight to the enemies door.




If people want to fix something, great.
Just make sure it's across the board rather than for a select few, that then hampers everyone else.









Edit: Martel, its not an easy win button, its a defence, much like skyfire and overwatch.
An easy win button is podding in against a shooting army and assaulting them straight off the bat.


And before anyone starts about "tau player" or that usual crap, I run nids and daemons, so my army focus's on assault.

Well they already ignore a whole host of core rules, why not hand out some more perks for marine players?

They can't ignore being shot off the table which is the most important mechanic. If marines had all the advantages people claimed, ba wouldn't be god awful still.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I look at it this way...

Terminators teleporting in from the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: The air becomes charged. Your hair stands on end. You feel a flash of light and a distinct pressure as displaced air assaults you. As the dust settles, you look up to see Terminators standing where none stood before.

And they need your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle.

Had to exalt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am perfectly happy with my shadow-strike kill team being able to assault from deep strike (even happier I can do it turn 1 in the talon strike force). My opponents really aren't to happy about it. Dropping Kiros Fateweaver turn one just makes people angry it seems. Realistically though...I had to spend nearly 400 points on a unit of vangardvets to reliably run the tactic + 2 tax units of scouts and a few more units of scout bikes with homers to really run it effectively...For that price I can almost take 2 IK which would be far more reliable. So I think the key to assault from deep strike should be force requirements and only specific units should be able to do it.

Martel732 wrote:
They can't ignore being shot off the table which is the most important mechanic. If marines had all the advantages people claimed, ba wouldn't be god awful still.

'Marines' have a lot of advantages BA don't. Free transports (vanilla book), Librarius (vanilla/DA), jink shenanigans (vanilla/DA), fast T5 deathstars (SW), Centurions (vanilla). I still think you're underestimating your Codex, but it's true many of the stupid tournament power-shenanigans most Marine books have skipped you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"If they bring this in then every army needs a warp quake type ability to deal with it."

More easy win buttons for shooting lists? Gotcha.

Go spend a week playing Tau and then tell me the ability to do something about enemy armies charging you turn one with no chance of mishap is an 'easy win button' for a shooty list.

Interceptor has ended lists' viability in one turn. Especially now that they have intercepting marker lights. Tau are the least affected by assault from DS.

" stupid tournament power-shenanigans most Marine books have"

So that means the shenaningans are the strong part, not the actual marines. So people need to quit complaining about marines ignoring rules. ATSKNF is an artifact of 3rd ed. It was hot back then, now it mean very, very little when plan A is to just shoot them to death.

Simply put, BA are not regular marines.
So people talking about marine gear doesn't always relate to BA.
BA have sadly been kicked about with poor books one after the other (being my first proper army too)

How many armies have a deepstrike transport with assault vehicle?
Oh, that would be marine varieties.

So what about the assault based armies?
Orks, nids, daemons.
These are the ones with the need for a boost as they are far more fragile and need to be in combat.

So the answer is give marines the ability when they are primarily a shooting based army.
Makes sense.



I'd be interested to see someone running a list making full use of this against other armies.
Pretty sure it would neuter most armies turn 1 then mop up over 2 and possibly 3 if they have not quit by then.

But BA have all the special rules that marines do on a unit by unit basis for the most part. The divergence is formations mostly. Formations are NOT an inherent property of marines. So people need to quit whining about ATSKNF. That rule doesn't matter anymore.

 Rotary wrote:
We need some assault from arrival again with balance. Shooting army's have become the only viable option at this point and it's boring.

No, sorry, Jackal is right. These super-assault unit just jack up the game to another level, but without balancing it - it just becomes more broken. Certain armies can deal with EVERYTHING, so they will deal with deepassaulters too - but others will just be more screwed and underpowered.

If shooting is too strong, just reintroduce better transport rules and make the game more tactical, not a point-and-click dumbfest in which who has the most broken deathstar wins*.


* albeit I possibly just described many 40k games in general


Also, as a general rule, I find absolutely INFURIATING that everything is measured by marines standard.
"Gargantuan creature? why you are upset, there is grav."
Assault is weak, we should do something to drop pods"

THERE ARE OTHER ARMIES. GW already seems to forget it sometimes, the fanbase should not do the same mistake, IMHO.

So Martel, BA have full use off all vanilla marine units then?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
We need some assault from arrival again with balance. Shooting army's have become the only viable option at this point and it's boring.

If shooting is too strong, just reintroduce better transport rules and make the game more tactical

I think this is the most important way to solve the assault from deepstrike argument. No one would be arguing as strongly for assault from deep strike if it was actually possible to get transports across the board reliably. Mobility is key to assault. Two of the best assault units right now, wulfen and TWC, both have the ability to move very quickly without deepstrike or transport

 Jackal wrote:
So Martel, BA have full use off all vanilla marine units then?

No, but the only one that really matters is grav cents. But lack of invis access makes even this no that great. One could say land speeder storm, but those are far from broken.

If BA had gladius and skyhammer, they'd instantly be towards the top again.

Oh no, lack of invis!
You mean like most other armies right?


The idea of different chapters is to have a different army from other chapters.
If everyone has the same opinion why not bin chapters altogether and run the basic book with red marines?
Then everyone has the same toys.



Just because one army has something does not mean they should all get it.






Currently though, marines aren't short on toys to use.
They have something for all occasions to be fair.

I'm just getting at the fact they need more ways to push lower tier armies even lower.




Hell, let nids assault from their pods and see how long it takes for them to be pushing high tier.
Would make in interesting game to watch.

"They have something for all occasions to be fair. "

Vanilla, yes.

Maybe give BA jump troops assault from DS as a default as well as Deathwing terminators. Give it to units that are currently poor.

 Jackal wrote:
Oh no, lack of invis!
You mean like most other armies right?


The idea of different chapters is to have a different army from other chapters.
If everyone has the same opinion why not bin chapters altogether and run the basic book with red marines?
Then everyone has the same toys.



Just because one army has something does not mean they should all get it.






Currently though, marines aren't short on toys to use.
They have something for all occasions to be fair.

I'm just getting at the fact they need more ways to push lower tier armies even lower.




Hell, let nids assault from their pods and see how long it takes for them to be pushing high tier.
Would make in interesting game to watch.

Thank you for your sanity Jackal.

There will always be a call for this as long as shooting is an overwhelming as it is. Another solution is to cheapen all assault units, as 85% of them will accomplish nothing anyway.

No, there will always be a call for it from people with possible access to it.
Every other armies assault units are still no better than they were.


So this is not improving the game, its just improving marines.
2 very different things.







Sure, give BA jump troops.
While we are at it bring back EW in synapse range, CC viable Orks and a whole host of other things that should exist still.

This still has no effect on the topic though.
It's simply wish listing for BA.





Assault once reached will make or break armies.
Making 1st turn assaults possible with half an army are too much.
More so when on a select few armies can do it and even less have a counter for it.

I can't think of any other way of ruining 40k past its current state lol.