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 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
We need some assault from arrival again with balance. Shooting army's have become the only viable option at this point and it's boring.

If shooting is too strong, just reintroduce better transport rules and make the game more tactical

I think this is the most important way to solve the assault from deepstrike argument. No one would be arguing as strongly for assault from deep strike if it was actually possible to get transports across the board reliably. Mobility is key to assault. Two of the best assault units right now, wulfen and TWC, both have the ability to move very quickly without deepstrike or transport

Thats a great point. At the very least people should be able to assault out of a stationary transport. I'd go further and say that all vehicals should be treated like current assault vehicals and actual assault vehicals should be able to move their full distance and allow for assault as well (maybe even giving the fleet bonus to their unit as well).

Martel732 wrote:
...lack of invis access...

...You're in the Armies of the Imperium. You're allowed to staple a 55pt Inquisitor who's rolling on Telepathy to anything you want, no questions asked, no f***s given.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...lack of invis access...

...You're in the Armies of the Imperium. You're allowed to staple a 55pt Inquisitor who's rolling on Telepathy to anything you want, no questions asked, no f***s given.

I don't play codex: armies of Imperium. That's a $2000 dollar codex.

Right. But it wouldn't only work for marines what about Dark Eldar? They have deep strike with open topped transports, open topped meens assault vehicle. so they can assault from deep strike. cool with wyches or wracks.

OK so should I my rules for deep strike assault vehicles, A. Here; because we are discussing them here, or B. over in the proposed rules section; and either we all go their read 'em, or we comment on them there.

I'm sill fairly new here so I don't know what to do when a discusion on existing rule expands to include fan made rules. ?

Yeah, give it to DE, too. They need all the help they can get.

See DE need a hell of a boost.
More so for wyches since the haywire grenades got a FAQ.
So assault for them would be a benefit to the army.


Come to think about it, what armies have a deepstriking vehicle with OT or assault vehicle?
As this would apply to any of those.

OK this is a hot topic clearly.

Right I'm sure we all have lots of interesting and passionate views on assaulting from deep strike, but this discusion was to discuss, transport vehicles that for no additional cost always have both deep strike and assault vehicle, or deep strike and open topped. Everything else is another debate entirely.

The reason I started this thread because there are transport vehicles who already have these rules, and in their descriptions it states they are used to assault the moment they reach the enemy.

These vehcles are clearly supposed to allow for drop assaults but the current rules on deep strike don't allow it.

my sugestion is that in situations that involve transport vehicles who have both deep strike and assault vehicles or deep strike and open topped. There should be amendments to over watch and the deep strike rules to allow these vehicles to perform the function that they were clearly always meant to.

does that sound reasonable?

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...lack of invis access...

...You're in the Armies of the Imperium. You're allowed to staple a 55pt Inquisitor who's rolling on Telepathy to anything you want, no questions asked, no f***s given.

I don't play codex: armies of Imperium. That's a $2000 dollar codex.

So your Codex doesn't work in a vacuum. You're stuck with a weak army because you insist on playing out of one book. Woo. Cry me a river.

(Context: My Daemonhunters army has been chopped up to the point that I'm actually not allowed to play it if I don't spend $150ish on three Codexes and a dataslate.)

You know that more than half the game needs allies/supplements/forgeworld to function, right? Including four of eight of the 'Xenos' books you're so fond of grumbling about the OPness of?

I don't think they want marines assaulting out of drop pods. You'd get less flakk about raiders.

 Andross wrote:
OK this is a hot topic clearly.

Right I'm sure we all have lots of interesting and passionate views on assaulting from deep strike, but this discusion was to discuss, transport vehicles that for no additional cost always have both deep strike and assault vehicle, or deep strike and open topped. Everything else is another debate entirely.

The reason I started this thread because there are transport vehicles who already have these rules, and in their descriptions it states they are used to assault the moment they reach the enemy.

These vehcles are clearly supposed to allow for drop assaults but the current rules on deep strike don't allow it.

my sugestion is that in situations that involve transport vehicles who have both deep strike and assault vehicles or deep strike and open topped. There should be amendments to over watch and the deep strike rules to allow these vehicles to perform the function that they were clearly always meant to.

does that sound reasonable?

The issue is that reliable/risk free Deep Strike is an incredibly good and unfairly limited mechanic that five of the 25-odd Codexes in the game are allowed right now. Of those five books only one of them actually needs the help (BA, as Martel is so fond of reminding us).

The fluff logic of coming out of a pod and sitting there for a turn may be counterintuitive, but the fact that I'm not allowed to call my Flyers in to blow up your pods on the way in, the fact that the Space Marines are somehow infinitely better at timing their reserves than everyone else in the game, and the fact that a Drop Pod can't mishap by landing in an illegal position but a Valkyrie can mishap by landing in a legal position are all similarly counterintuitive.

So you're poking at a hole in the entire confused logic of Deep Strike and Reserves in general that isn't anywhere close to the largest, most unbalancing, or most urgent hole in the system, and would make things worse if you patched it the way you're suggesting. Assaulting out of Deep Strike isn't inherently a bad idea, but trying to do it as a band-aid patch without scrapping and overhauling the entirety of the Reserves rules (especially in a way that hands it to a small chunk of the game that's already ahead of the curve on Reserves) isn't going to help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think they want marines assaulting out of drop pods. You'd get less flakk about raiders.

You'd get less flak about Raiders because the transport/Reserves rules have been revised and the only things that would be able to assault out of Raiders are the worst assault units in the game. (Also Incubi.)

You'd get less flak about giving the Orks some way to assault out of Deep Strike because they're the worst army in the game and need the help.

This isn't an anti-human persecution complex bender we're on.

Invisibility should not be granted to everyone, it should die in a fire.

OK applicable units that I know of.

Dark Eldar: the Raider and the Venom.

Imperial and Chaos Space Marines: the Kharybdis Assault Claw, Dreadclaw Drop Pod and Caestus Assault Ram.

Astra Militarum: Vakyrie.

Necrons: Nightscythe.

probably more but I can't afford every Codex:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as I have house rules for using them fairly. If anyone's Interested.

With regards to how many armies will benefit. If the rule mechanic worked by the next updated every codex: would have at least one transport unit with the special rule.

Que a massive exploding drum on a springy foot thing for Orks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ooh. I've got another one Eldar Harlequins can assault out their wave serpenty thing and Ithink that can deep strike.

I don't even like drop pods the way they work now. There is something fundamentally wrong with being able to deploy your troops within your opponents deployment zone after your opponent has deployed and then being able to shoot all his most valuable pieces with destructive short range weapons like grav guns, meltaguns, flamers or nasty psychic powers before he has even gotten a turn. If I had my way, drop pods would just be a way to grant deepstriking to units that otherwise couldn't, they would not come on turn 1, and they would not eliminate deepstrike mishaps, and the sure as heck would not grant assault out of deepstrike. The idea of taking this up to 11 through risk free assaults on your opponents backline units before he has gotten a turn is down right broken, and everyone here bloody well knows that.

The tradeoff between assault and shooting is that assault is intended to deliver a decisive blow within a single turn while units can often whether several turns of shooting, but assault is more difficult to pull of as a unit must first be maneuvered into charge range often at great risk. Charging a unit should be a reward for outmaneuvering your opponent rather than something that can be pulled off using reserve shenanigans that grants little to no counterplay. Units that aren't even on the board have no business pulling of charges, because the opponent has absolutely no chance to react to them. There is no movement phase to move into a better position or shooting phase to try a pick them off, an assault specialist simply enters reserves, charges and kills a unit and there is nothing the opposing player can do about it. Unless of course they are Tau. But is massed overwatch and interceptor the way we want the game to go? Because that is the way it would have to go if there are to be any real defenses against units assaulting straight out of deepstrike.

Now I do agree assault is to weak right now but this is the wrong way to go about correcting the problem. The game rules need to be modified to make it so assault units that start deployed on a table have a reasonable chance of making it into assault when the correct tactics are used, rather than adding yet another layer of deployment and list building nonsense into the game. Back in fourth edition, there were no drop pods, no assaulting out of deepstrike, no outflanking of any kind, and yet you constantly saw units like assault marines, khorne berserkers and genestealers on the tabletop because they had a reasonable chance of surviving shooting. Assault can be made viable by getting rid of overwatch, bringing back abstracted terrain and toning down shooting lethality instead of resorting to even more power creep. And when done in this way, it keeps the units on the tabletop and leaves the success of the assault down to tactics on the tabletop, rather than list building and deployment.

The main problem about deep striking assault units is they lack any counter. Your only option is to hope and pray for good cover placement in relations to the receivers units.

One friend of mine suggested making it as if the assaulting unit was charging through cover.... yeah fine.... but how does that help GEQ's or vehicles who can't do anything at all against such units?

You might as well remove non transport vehicles from 40k if you can assault from deep strike or reserves.

Well I don't have details as yet. But I think if I'm getting the jist right there's new rules in the "Planetary Onslaught book", I think I've got that right? In the planet strike section for games where one side is the defender and get's free terrain and fortifications and buffs to overwatch, skyfire and intercepter. The other side are the attackers and get free deep strike for all units, even ones that don't normally have it and deep strike vehicles and re-rolls for reserves and they can assault straight out of deep stike.

If anyone out there has a copy of the supplement let me know if that's correct.

Anyway I started this debate to guage how people would feel those rules became commonplace for certain units and formations as long as there were counter rules for overwatch etc. to balance things out.

I think if done right it could be realy good for the game.

As i've said already, I already have house rules which work realy well. And I feel, and my gaming group feel, they fit into the game realy well.

as I said, I'll share them with anyone whose interested, have a few games with youre mates then hit me up with some feedback.

I've been at this hobby for a little over two decades, it'd be nice to think I had made a constructive contribution, even it's only how not to do assault from deep stike.

Hold on, don't the assault transports listed have a silly level of manoeuvrability anyway? I mean, raiders are skimmers so ignore terrain (and also, why would you deepstrike transports and risk mishap?)

The others, iirc, are flyers, so have a degree of protection when they come from reserves and y'know, can cover a table length in a turn, you just have to hover before assaulting (a fair trade off imo), so why deepstrike them and again, risk a mishap for an expensive model? (Also, the Valkyrie was never intended as an Assault transport fyi, it's a paratrooper flyer, drop in, shoot everything, secure the area type of thing)

As far as pods go, No. Inertial guidance system is too powerful as it is, and assaulting from one is even worse. It surmounts to a guaranteed placement, and guaranteed charge (because pre-measure). Omnissiah no.

I always thought of melee as the ultimate high-risk, high-reward tactic if you could get there. And there are LOADS of ways to reliably reach combat anyway (Dakka needs toning down a touch though).

Well in regards to marine pods anyway the units inside should be stuck inside the turn they arrive. Pods are under costed as they are, but the way they should work is similar to the Forgeworld lucious pod rules, the turn they land they have shrouded (huge plume of debris/dust/whatever they land on) and the unit stays in the pod until next turn (meaning you have to attack the pod and they can not deploy or assault). As an opentopped vehicle they could still shoot out, but really they should only be able to make snap shots after landing (not counts as moving or anything like that, strictly snap shots only). On the turn after deployment they must deploy, can shoot as normal, and assault out (open topped). $.02

AndrewChristlieb wrote:
Well in regards to marine pods anyway the units inside should be stuck inside the turn they arrive. Pods are under costed as they are, but the way they should work is similar to the Forgeworld lucious pod rules, the turn they land they have shrouded (huge plume of debris/dust/whatever they land on) and the unit stays in the pod until next turn (meaning you have to attack the pod and they can not deploy or assault). As an opentopped vehicle they could still shoot out, but really they should only be able to make snap shots after landing (not counts as moving or anything like that, strictly snap shots only). On the turn after deployment they must deploy, can shoot as normal, and assault out (open topped). $.02

That'd make some sense, but be overpowered. While they might have to wait a turn to assault, they get an AV 12 bunker to hide in for that turn they wait.

With shrouded. I agree it would be over powered, but pods really are now anyway, well underpriced at least.

Ok standard drop pods are cheep, but they would not benefit from the rules as they are not assault vehicles.

To use the special rule you would need to purchase the more expensive Dreadclaw and Kharybdis, which don't have the guidance special rules making the deep assaults risky, there is your trade off.

Before posting check the vehicle has the correct special skills. Harping on about how unfair a vehicle would be using the rules can't actually use just looks silly. Seriously. vanilla pods don't have assault vehicle, so stop moaning about them.

OK the Deep Assault special rule, as per my gaming club's house rule will be posted in the proposed rules section sometime tomorrow. This rule is only available for vehicles which have the Deep Strike and Assault Vehicle special rules or the Deep Strike and Open Topped special rule. It combines and where necessary replaces all or part of these rules.

I will include a list of vehicles that we use this rule for, if anyone thinks they no a no of a vehicle not on the list, that would work as a Deep Assault vehicle, leave a suggestion and explanation and I'll check them out and let you know what I think.

Any suggestion must conform to the following criteria.

1: Must be a vehicle.

2. Must be able to arrive via deep strike.

3 must be open topped or have an assault ramp or have a mechanism which allows for a rapid disembarcation. Also vehicles that teleport or air drop the embarked unit on to the battlefield would be applicable.

I'm also posting the Dedicated Over Watch rule as the are designed to go against each other.

I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

I drop Dreadnoughts in both Lucius pattern and normal Drop Pods, interestingly enough, playing on an 8x4 table at over 1000 points there aren't many armies that can't thwart the Drop Pod.
My Drop Pods have been hard countered by Ork, Guard and Tyranid players just by way of model placement.
Craftworld Eldar, Tau and Necrons can purchase hard counters to the Pods.
So, what does that leave us with that truly suffers and can't do anything about the first turn Drop Pods?
The bottom teir Space Marines, the Sisters, Dark Eldar and Daemons...

Anybody feeling the sympathy there?
Even bottom tier Space Marines get access to Drop Pods themselves.
Daemons and Dark Eldar both have limited access to units that can use Templates with enough power to damage the Dread while it's still in the Pod.

So that leaves the Sisters.

 Andross wrote:
OK the Deep Assault special rule, as per my gaming club's house rule will be posted in the proposed rules section sometime tomorrow. This rule is only available for vehicles which have the Deep Strike and Assault Vehicle special rules or the Deep Strike and Open Topped special rule. It combines and where necessary replaces all or part of these rules.

I will include a list of vehicles that we use this rule for, if anyone thinks they no a no of a vehicle not on the list, that would work as a Deep Assault vehicle, leave a suggestion and explanation and I'll check them out and let you know what I think.

Any suggestion must conform to the following criteria.

1: Must be a vehicle.

2. Must be able to arrive via deep strike.

3 must be open topped or have an assault ramp or have a mechanism which allows for a rapid disembarcation. Also vehicles that teleport or air drop the embarked unit on to the battlefield would be applicable.

doesn't a stormraven fit all 3 criteria?

do BA still have access to their Deepstriking Land Raiders?

makes me think; if a deepstrike platform that cannot mishap (unless it lands off the table) and shows up on turn one costs 35 points, and a deepstriking platform (that cannot arrive turn one) but has an assault ramp is north of 200 points, how much are you willing to pay for a drop pod with all 3 abilities? as much as a Land Raider?

 carldooley wrote:

 Andross wrote:
OK the Deep Assault special rule, as per my gaming club's house rule will be posted in the proposed rules section sometime tomorrow. This rule is only available for vehicles which have the Deep Strike and Assault Vehicle special rules or the Deep Strike and Open Topped special rule. It combines and where necessary replaces all or part of these rules.

I will include a list of vehicles that we use this rule for, if anyone thinks they no a no of a vehicle not on the list, that would work as a Deep Assault vehicle, leave a suggestion and explanation and I'll check them out and let you know what I think.

Any suggestion must conform to the following criteria.

1: Must be a vehicle.

2. Must be able to arrive via deep strike.

3 must be open topped or have an assault ramp or have a mechanism which allows for a rapid disembarcation. Also vehicles that teleport or air drop the embarked unit on to the battlefield would be applicable.

doesn't a stormraven fit all 3 criteria?

do BA still have access to their Deepstriking Land Raiders?

makes me think; if a deepstrike platform that cannot mishap (unless it lands off the table) and shows up on turn one costs 35 points, and a deepstriking platform (that cannot arrive turn one) but has an assault ramp is north of 200 points, how much are you willing to pay for a drop pod with all 3 abilities? as much as a Land Raider?

Blood Angels only have one way of getting reliability on Reserves and it's an unreliable, expensive Psychic discipline.
When you've spent around 200 points on a Flyer plus whatever it's bringing by way of cargo then flunk all your Reserve rolls so the blasted thing doesn't arrive until the battle has already been decided you kind of develop a bit of mistrust for the things.
For 240 points plus Land Raiders are remarkably bad at what they do. They're supposed to be troop transports, what they actually are is a player putting a lot of points in a single place to be shot at.
When an assault army destroys a transport in the first few swings and still has a lot of attacks and initiative steps left they just stop and stare at the disembarked cargo.
When a shootie army destroys a transport they just choose another unit to open fire on whatever comes out.

 Andross wrote:
Well I don't have details as yet. But I think if I'm getting the jist right there's new rules in the "Planetary Onslaught book", I think I've got that right? In the planet strike section for games where one side is the defender and get's free terrain and fortifications and buffs to overwatch, skyfire and intercepter. The other side are the attackers and get free deep strike for all units, even ones that don't normally have it and deep strike vehicles and re-rolls for reserves and they can assault straight out of deep stike.

Anyway I started this debate to guage how people would feel those rules became commonplace for certain units and formations as long as there were counter rules for overwatch etc. to balance things out.

I think if done right it could be realy good for the game.

See this is exactly my problem with assault out of deep strike. Does this not strike you as just another arms race, at least in the slightest? It looks like the game could easily degenerate into a turn 1 dice rolling contest to see if the defenders interceptor and overwatch can take out turn one assault deepstrikers before the defenders army is crippled, and all before the defender has been given a single turn.

Go on nearly any thread on these forums regarding the Tau in general or on specific Tau units, and see what the posters on those threads have to say about the army wide overwatch and interceptor capability of the Tau. Here is a spoiler warning for you, the posters seem to despise these rules. Now you are proposing to make these same hated rules game wide just so the person defending against the assaulting deepstrikers has a chance. It seems like a disaster just waiting to happen. Certainly it would make sense to go in the other direction instead, and look for ways to remove overwatch and interceptor from the game rather than adding overpowered stuff to the game that requires these hated rules.

The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer.

Finally someone acknowledges this. Some suggested it earlier but it got ignored. You don't have to get out of a dreadclaw or karybdis. In 30k my buddy uses a bunch of dreadclaws with Emperors Children palantine blades. Come in wherever you want, then move to assault the next turn. The pod can heat blast units it runs over and can even go airborne as a flyer to continue to transport. Even if they couldn't deepstrike like a pod, the AV12 all around and assault vehicle status alone make them worth their points. Assault vehicle is not worthless as units can continue to get in and out as it moves throughout the game. It even comes with a flight stand when you buy one from FW.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

Thanks for your input. I actually own 7 Kharibys Assault Claws and 10 Dreadclaw Assault Pods and use them very mutch as you sudjest here. I just feel they should do more for thier points. Having them as flying assault vehicles is stiil pretty sweet tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

Thanks for your input. I actually own 7 Kharibys Assault Claws and 10 Dreadclaw Assault Pods and use them very mutch as you sudjest here. I just feel they should do more for thier points. Having them as flying assault vehicles is stiil pretty sweet tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miindhaze wrote:

The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer.

Finally someone acknowledges this. Some suggested it earlier but it got ignored. You don't have to get out of a dreadclaw or karybdis. In 30k my buddy uses a bunch of dreadclaws with Emperors Children palantine blades. Come in wherever you want, then move to assault the next turn. The pod can heat blast units it runs over and can even go airborne as a flyer to continue to transport. Even if they couldn't deepstrike like a pod, the AV12 all around and assault vehicle status alone make them worth their points. Assault vehicle is not worthless as units can continue to get in and out as it moves throughout the game. It even comes with a flight stand when you buy one from FW.

Very true. As I have already said I do play as skimming assault transports land'm safe the first turn. Then zipm overto something you don't and drop termies and chosen on it's head.

The thing is I started playing Warhammer 40K wirh 2nd edition when assaults and overwatch actually worked. There should never be first turn deep striking it brakes the game and is crap. None of the peple I play with ever throw out reserves turn one when able to out of respect for their opponent and a great game that sadly got ruind.

the game became broken about 5th ed. and has been spiralling down the crap shot ever since, (although the recent return of a dedicated Psychic Phase was a good call) this is why my game group have to run so many house rules.

We need some sanity and balance ack in the game. otherwise we will end up with sci-fi Age of Sigmar and no one in their right mind wants that.

 Andross wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

Thanks for your input. I actually own 7 Kharibys Assault Claws and 10 Dreadclaw Assault Pods and use them very mutch as you sudjest here. I just feel they should do more for thier points. Having them as flying assault vehicles is stiil pretty sweet tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


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If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

Thanks for your input. I actually own 7 Kharibys Assault Claws and 10 Dreadclaw Assault Pods and use them very mutch as you sudjest here. I just feel they should do more for thier points. Having them as flying assault vehicles is stiil pretty sweet tough.


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 Miindhaze wrote:

The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer.

Finally someone acknowledges this. Some suggested it earlier but it got ignored. You don't have to get out of a dreadclaw or karybdis. In 30k my buddy uses a bunch of dreadclaws with Emperors Children palantine blades. Come in wherever you want, then move to assault the next turn. The pod can heat blast units it runs over and can even go airborne as a flyer to continue to transport. Even if they couldn't deepstrike like a pod, the AV12 all around and assault vehicle status alone make them worth their points. Assault vehicle is not worthless as units can continue to get in and out as it moves throughout the game. It even comes with a flight stand when you buy one from FW.

Very true. As I have already said I do play as skimming assault transports land'm safe the first turn. Then zipm overto something you don't and drop termies and chosen on it's head.

The thing is I started playing Warhammer 40K wirh 2nd edition when assaults and overwatch actually worked. There should never be first turn deep striking it brakes the game and is crap. None of the peple I play with ever throw out reserves turn one when able to out of respect for their opponent and a great game that sadly got ruind.

the game became broken about 5th ed. and has been spiralling down the crap shot ever since, (although the recent return of a dedicated Psychic Phase was a good call) this is why my game group have to run so many house rules.

We need some sanity and balance ack in the game. otherwise we will end up with sci-fi Age of Sigmar and no one in their right mind wants that.

Yeh with multiple dreadclaws points efficiency is always an issue because of the third pod needed for 2 to arrive turn 1. Its just very hard to fit them in a sub 2k list when also including contents. A single one though works wonders. I just plonk it in front of the opponent and move it in my shooting phase right in their faces within 6" of Be'lakor for the shrouding and basically silently state 'right - deal with it'. Because if they don't Abaddon + termis or Kharn + bezerkers are going to usually be popping out and assaulting and decimating 2 units - and that's not including what the Dark Prince is assaulting too. Even if they do deal with it the units are still there to deal with too. And if the opponents do shoot at it to bring it down (hard with the jink) that means the rest of my force moving up is usually relatively untouched. In games above 2k I have brought 3 dreadclaws before and had the first two with Kharn, bezerkers + Abaddon, termis on either side of Be'lakor. It rips the centre of the opponents line to pieces (side note - Be'lakor + Kharn charging a Knight who has very little chance of avoiding the charge = one very very dead Knight.) Third pod usually has melta or plasma chosen, but that is more of a tax to ensure the first two are on the board turn 1 and I dont waste the 100pts on a third empty pod.
Never taken more than three or ever taken a Karybis though. would go so far to say a dreadclaw, if supported correctly, is more devestating for what it does than even a Sicaran or Typhon (I know - bold claim!).
If I could take 100pt turn 1 deepstriking assault skimmers for my BA I would take them every single time without fail.