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So this happened:
Q: How does a power that targets ‘the Psyker’ but not his unit
work on a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers? If, for example,
a Wyrdvane Psyker squad casts Iron Arm, does one model
nominated as ‘the caster’ receive the benefits?
A: The power applies to all ‘Brotherhood of Psykers’
models in the unit.

The first thing that occurred to me was a Librarian casting Precognition while joined to a GK unit..
The whole unit gets to re-roll Hits, wounds and Saving throws. for less WC than the Primaris: Prescience WOW!

Are there any Imperium Psykers with access to Biomancy that can easily ally with GKs? Cuz wow. T7 Terminators just seems sick.

I must be missing something, gotta check the Brotherhood od Psykers rule

Missed that whole "brotherhood of psykers" bit, didn't ya?

TheSnowmanInHell wrote:
Missed that whole "brotherhood of psykers" bit, didn't ya?

Well the FAQ makes it pretty clear that a "Psyker" joined to a unit of "Brotherhood of Psykers" counts as a single psyker, via sharing ML and not being able to cast the same power twice, even if it is once from the Psyker and again from the unit.
So if the Librarian casts a power that "only affects the Psyker", then this particular FAQ counts Brotherhood Psykers he is joined to as well. Right?

I still think it's viable, but I really need to sit in front on my BRB and this FAQ to cross reference them.

Come back after you've sat infront of that book a bit. Going to require some serious interpretive gymnastics to justify it working the way you propose.

Not to say that FAQ answer doesn't present some neat possibilities, just not the way you're describing.

The big issue is that Brotherhood of Psykers as written is a conferred USR, similar to Shrouded or Tank Hunters.

Which leads to amusing implications about Bound Psykers and Inquisitorial Henchmen. Or Iron Arm Paladins...

No, the Librarian does not have the Brotherhood of Psyker rule.

 jy2 wrote:
No, the Librarian does not have the Brotherhood of Psyker rule.

You see I would go with you on this, but if I do follow these rules as written then GK psychic phase is literally the worst psychic army in the game. There is no synergy, there is no cost-effectiveness, there is only dreadknight and I can't accept that.

 Quickjager wrote:
There is no synergy, there is no cost-effectiveness, there is only dreadknight and I can't accept that.

You can't handle the truth ©

 Quickjager wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
No, the Librarian does not have the Brotherhood of Psyker rule.

You see I would go with you on this, but if I do follow these rules as written then GK psychic phase is literally the worst psychic army in the game. There is no synergy, there is no cost-effectiveness, there is only dreadknight and I can't accept that.

Welcome to the world of GW rules writing.

I don't see how brotherhood of psykers is shared with the rest of the unit. It makes the unit psychic but nowhere in the rules does it say other models also become brotherhood of psykers.

For example if I have a psyker (who has brotherhood of psykers) in my Inq Acolyte squad and roll a perils, it can't wound my jokaero because he isn't a brother of psyker. Casting precog with that psyker won't make my plasma acolytes or jokaero able to reroll to hit, to wound, and saves.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The big issue is that Brotherhood of Psykers as written is a conferred USR, similar to Shrouded or Tank Hunters.

See this is the bit that first lead me to start this thread. If BoP is a rule that says "a unit consisting of at least 1 model...." than when a Librarian joins that unit, he gains BoP, just like Shrouded and Tanks hunters.
Can anyone confirm the wording? I am not near my BRB at the moment.

If it does not have that wording, I think we can drop this discussion and move onto other implications for GKs (like no auto-cover in Ruins for DKs unless 25% obscured)
If it DOES have that wording, than I would find it hard not to agree that a Librarian could cast Precog on his unit (however Iron Arm would require an non-GK Libby with access to Biomancy)

-

It has the "A unit containing at least one model..." part, but it's referring to models with the brother hood rule and then to make that a psyker unit. So joining wouldn't make them part of it either. Would probably make the psyker the same mastery level as the brotherhood as well the way its written if it did give them the brotherhood rule as well.

 n0t_u wrote:
It has the "A unit containing at least one model..." part, but .....

If it has that part, than any model joining the unit would also gain Brotherhood, including another Psyker. To suggest otherwise would mean that rules like Stealth, Shroud, Hit & Run, etc do not transfer to the unit as well, which we all know is not the case.

Normally Brotherhood would do nothing if an non-Psyker joins, other than being a viable candidate to "cast" any powers that the unit has, but that is still the unit casting it.
Again here is the relevant FAQ:

So if the unit consists on 1 Brotherhood of Psyker model, the unit, including all models would also have Brotherhood of Psykers (see earlier example of Shroud)

I really don't see any other RAW way to interpret this. Sure the Librarian still counts as a "Psyker" and generates his own powers separate from his unit, but once he joins a unit with Brotherhood, he gains Brotherhood, thus is allowed to cast Precog and have it apply to "all Brotherhood models in the unit" via this FAQ. Probably not what they intended, but certainly they way it is written.

-

It refers to the unit becoming a psyker unit not a psyker gaining the brotherhood rule.

"A unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a Psyker unit."

That's all. It doesn't confer the actual rule itself like other "containing one model" clauses do. Nothing without BoP gets BoP, they just are part of a Psyker unit.

It is not RAW at all that any model gains the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, they do not become candidates to cast spells, perils does not affect them, they are merely part of a Psyker unit.

 n0t_u wrote:
It refers to the unit becoming a psyker unit not a psyker gaining the brotherhood rule.

Does it actually say that?
Because if it just says "A unit that consists of at least 1 model..." than any and ALL models in the unit gain the rule. Period. You cannot make an exception for this rule unless specifically state (which you have not provided, although I'll take a look at tht erule when I get home to double check)
Now that doesn't mean that if a non-Psyker joins he will magically generate a new power, as the unit has already done that and he is part of the unit.

It actually doesn't change how anything works normally. The unit will still have its power and any Psykers that join will have theirs as described in the Psychic phase section.
What is does, however, if give any Pysker that joins both the Psyker rule and the Brotherhood rule. After all, IC become part of their units for all purposes.
This FAQ tells us that when a model with Brotherhood cast a power that applies only to the "Psyker" that is also applies to all models with Brotherhood.

EDIT:

Jacksmiles wrote:
"A unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a Psyker unit."

That's all. It doesn't confer the actual rule itself like other "containing one model" clauses do. Nothing without BoP gets BoP, they just are part of a Psyker unit.

It is not RAW at all that any model gains the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, they do not become candidates to cast spells, perils does not affect them, they are merely part of a Psyker unit.

OK, that makes more sense. So it confers the "Psyker" rule, which a librarian already has.
So that's put to rest then. Shame. That would have made GK Termies kind of amazing if you rolled Precog. The whowl unit rerolling saves, hits and to wounds for only 1 WC.

-

 Galef wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It refers to the unit becoming a psyker unit not a psyker gaining the brotherhood rule.

Because if it just says "A unit that consists of at least 1 model..." than any and ALL models in the unit gain the rule. Period.
-

No, because you have to finish reading the sentence. What happens to a unit containing at least one model with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule? It is a Psyker unit. As I said above, that's all.

See my edit above. This issue is resolved. I am moving on.

Anyone notice any other implications for GKs?

 Galef wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It refers to the unit becoming a psyker unit not a psyker gaining the brotherhood rule.

Does it actually say that?
Because if it just says "A unit that consists of at least 1 model..." than any and ALL models in the unit gain the rule. Period. You cannot make an exception for this rule unless specifically state (which you have not provided, although I'll take a look at tht erule when I get home to double check)
Now that doesn't mean that if a non-Psyker joins he will magically generate a new power, as the unit has already done that and he is part of the unit.

It actually doesn't change how anything works normally. The unit will still have its power and any Psykers that join will have theirs as described in the Psychic phase section.
What is does, however, if give any Pysker that joins both the Psyker rule and the Brotherhood rule. After all, IC become part of their units for all purposes.
This FAQ tells us that when a model with Brotherhood cast a power that applies only to the "Psyker" that is also applies to all models with Brotherhood.

-

Which the psyker does not gain brotherhood.

Right, I was under the impression that the rule granted "Brotherhood" not "Psyker" as I am away from my BRB. Thank you Jacksmiles for posting the whole sentence

 Galef wrote:
See my edit above. This issue is resolved. I am moving on.

Anyone notice any other implications for GKs?

Well, our monstrous creatures now have to be 25% obscured. Sanctuary is now even more mandatory on Dreadknights over Force for fighting most foes.

Yeh it would have been awesome if it did work that way though, cause could have maybe found some fun for a herald and horrors.

Audustum wrote:

 Galef wrote:
See my edit above. This issue is resolved. I am moving on.

Anyone notice any other implications for GKs?

Well, our monstrous creatures now have to be 25% obscured. Sanctuary is now even more mandatory on Dreadknights over Force for fighting most foes.

I have been on the fence about using either a Void Shield Generator or Landing Pad, The terrain ruling for MCs made the LP the better choice

I think the only implication for GK as an army is that they are worse than BA now.

Martel, move over that's my spot you're in now.

 Quickjager wrote:
I think the only implication for GK as an army is that they are worse than BA now.

Martel, move over that's my spot you're in now.

I wouldn't get too comfortable on the gak marine throne just yet as the Agents codex is coming out soon and maybe Grey Knights will get a much needed shot in the arm (deep strike and assault formation mayhaps?).

On the bright side now I don't need to worry about figuring out a Dreadknight conversion that doesn't look quite so awful.

I'm looking at the mental gymnastics inherent in the original question and it's kind of an odd ruling; Wyrdvane Psykers are pretty much the only thing in the game it'd actually impact (there just aren't that many Brotherhood of Psykers units). Sanctic and Runes of Battle blessings (GK and Seer Councils) all target the caster and his unit anyway, Pink Horrors don't have any blessings at all, and Inquisitorial psykers are stuck with their one witchfire only.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
On the bright side now I don't need to worry about figuring out a Dreadknight conversion that doesn't look quite so awful.

I'm looking at the mental gymnastics inherent in the original question and it's kind of an odd ruling; Wyrdvane Psykers are pretty much the only thing in the game it'd actually impact (there just aren't that many Brotherhood of Psykers units). Sanctic and Runes of Battle blessings (GK and Seer Councils) all target the caster and his unit anyway, Pink Horrors don't have any blessings at all, and Inquisitorial psykers are stuck with their one witchfire only.

You're not still on the 2013 version of the Inquisition codex, are you? Inq psykers generate powers from Sanctic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, and Telepathy disciplines. Granted, even with this FAQ ruling, there is still no reason to have more than one psyker per unit, that old Psykic Barrage power or w/e it was called is no longer a thing.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
On the bright side now I don't need to worry about figuring out a Dreadknight conversion that doesn't look quite so awful.

I'm looking at the mental gymnastics inherent in the original question and it's kind of an odd ruling; Wyrdvane Psykers are pretty much the only thing in the game it'd actually impact (there just aren't that many Brotherhood of Psykers units). Sanctic and Runes of Battle blessings (GK and Seer Councils) all target the caster and his unit anyway, Pink Horrors don't have any blessings at all, and Inquisitorial psykers are stuck with their one witchfire only.

You're not still on the 2013 version of the Inquisition codex, are you? Inq psykers generate powers from Sanctic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, and Telepathy disciplines. Granted, even with this FAQ ruling, there is still no reason to have more than one psyker per unit, that old Psykic Barrage power or w/e it was called is no longer a thing.

Apparently I am, I'd gotten used to having an FAQ entry for it.

The only reason I can think of to take extra psykers in a Henchmen warband is as insurance against Perils.

 Quickjager wrote:
I think the only implication for GK as an army is that they are worse than BA now.

Martel, move over that's my spot you're in now.

Not quite, GK still have the Dreadknight which pretty much keeps GK above BA by itself

 Galef wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It has the "A unit containing at least one model..." part, but .....

If it has that part, than any model joining the unit would also gain Brotherhood, including another Psyker. To suggest otherwise would mean that rules like Stealth, Shroud, Hit & Run, etc do not transfer to the unit as well, which we all know is not the case.

Normally Brotherhood would do nothing if an non-Psyker joins, other than being a viable candidate to "cast" any powers that the unit has, but that is still the unit casting it.
Again here is the relevant FAQ:

Spoiler:

Q: How does a power that targets ‘the Psyker’ but not his unit
work on a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers? If, for example,
a Wyrdvane Psyker squad casts Iron Arm, does one model
nominated as ‘the caster’ receive the benefits?
A: The power applies to all ‘Brotherhood of Psykers’
models in the unit.

So if the unit consists on 1 Brotherhood of Psyker model, the unit, including all models would also have Brotherhood of Psykers (see earlier example of Shroud)

I really don't see any other RAW way to interpret this. Sure the Librarian still counts as a "Psyker" and generates his own powers separate from his unit, but once he joins a unit with Brotherhood, he gains Brotherhood, thus is allowed to cast Precog and have it apply to "all Brotherhood models in the unit" via this FAQ. Probably not what they intended, but certainly they way it is written.

-

Actually you are fairly close in regards to Precog working on the unit, but not for the reasons you listed.

Take page 22 of the BRB, "For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker Unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules."

So replacing the term 'Psyker' with its definition Precognition now reads as:

Precognition is a blessing that targets the unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules. Whilst this power is in effect, the unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules re-rolls all failed To Hit and To Wound rolls. in addition, while the power is in effect, the unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules re-rolls failed saving throws.

Since a libby + BoP is a single unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules due to the FAQ this works.