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hobojebus wrote:
It's not up to the customer to support a shop it's up to the shop to entice you to buy from them, the customer never owes any company a living.

That is true and you are correct. But the thing is, the GW store is enticing you to buy there because it offers a place to paint for the OP and game for others. If the GW store closed down, the OP doesn't have a place to paint now since he said the other store doesn't do this and it's enticing people by offering a discount. So both stores are enticing.

Usually I am sour on GW so surprised I am defending them here, or more to the fact I think I am defending the Pay where you play/paint debate instead of actually saying shop at GW. So I still say it's not the right thing to do.

The places where I play offers GW products, but the gaming scene is so dead here (like 4 players in the town) that their stuff is all old and they don't bring in new product unless you order it through them (i did once and it took nearly a month for the product to arrive, so I'm not doing that again). I buy paints and glue from them and use their tables, but I don't buy models from them. I don't feel bad however, because I'm a long time customer and buy most of my other hobby stuff from them (video games, tcgs). There's nothing inherently wrong about seeking the best deal, but if you are going to use their facilities, buy something from them, even if it is just paints and glue.

 Catfiish wrote:
The places where I play offers GW products, but the gaming scene is so dead here (like 4 players in the town) that their stuff is all old and they don't bring in new product unless you order it through them (i did once and it took nearly a month for the product to arrive, so I'm not doing that again). I buy paints and glue from them and use their tables, but I don't buy models from them. I don't feel bad however, because I'm a long time customer and buy most of my other hobby stuff from them (video games, tcgs). There's nothing inherently wrong about seeking the best deal, but if you are going to use their facilities, buy something from them, even if it is just paints and glue.

I agree completely with your last sentence. If you want to use the 'free' facilities, buy something.

If I was a GW manager, and you just went upstairs, bought your models, then came downstairs and took up valuable space in my store to build, paint, and play with said models my store didn't make any money off, I would tell you to feth off.

But that's just me.

 ShieldBrother wrote:
If I was a GW manager, and you just went upstairs, bought your models, then came downstairs and took up valuable space in my store to build, paint, and play with said models my store didn't make any money off, I would tell you to feth off.

But that's just me.

And after doing that in front of other customers you'd probably be selling even less product

Funnily enough I used to play at the local GW while buying most my stuff at the local FLGS, I did that back when I didn't really care about the GW employees/managers. Now the GW manager is a nice and friendly guy I feel bad and so stopped playing there while I don't buy there.

End result? The store gets even less of my money because before I at least occasionally impulse buy stuff while I was in there playing a game.

Personally I think if stores want to make money off their tables they should just charge for their use. That's what the store down the road does and I have no problem paying a few bucks to use a table for an evening.

Using the guilt method to try and get people to buy in your store isn't a great business practice IMO. I'll support the local store if I feel like supporting the local store, whether or not they provide tables doesn't make a huge difference to me.

Unfortunately for GW stores, I don't feel much compulsion to buy from them and would sooner see them closed than pay full price at a GW store.

 ShieldBrother wrote:
If I was a GW manager, and you just went upstairs, bought your models, then came downstairs and took up valuable space in my store to build, paint, and play with said models my store didn't make any money off, I would tell you to feth off.

But that's just me.

As a former GW manager, it's more like...

If they go upstairs, buy stuff, then come downstairs to hobby, you take them aside and tell them that the facilities are for paying customers and if a paying customer needs their seat, they'll get it. Also, if they mention that product can be purchased elsewhere at a discount, they're out of the store. It's one thing to purchase elsewhere and use in my store. It's another to actively undermine the store by suggesting customers shop elsewhere. It's a delicate balance. A packed shop sells more product than an empty shop, but you still need to purge toxic community members.

Really, just set ground rules. The wording is different, but these were two of mine. Worked out fine 99% of the time.

1. The hobby and gaming tables are primarily for paying customers. If you buy things in my store, you get first dibs on the tables. If you bought them elsewhere, you can still use the tables, but only if they're free. If there is a waiting list, you get bumped down the list.
2. There will be absolutely zero tolerance of talking about buying things that I sell elsewhere. This is a business, not a gaming club. Anyone undermining the store by suggesting customers shop elsewhere will be asked to leave.

You need to balance being an open and welcoming community with the greater need to make a profit. If you can't make a profit, it doesn't matter how many people hang out in your store. The rent man doesn't care about occupancy. He cares about rent.

Have you tried asking at the FLGS is there are any local clubs ? Those tend to be where communitys grow rather than the scorched and salted earth of GW mandatory and regulated fun of 'GW be all of the hobby, all else is heresy and witchcraft"

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Have you tried asking at the FLGS is there are any local clubs ? Those tend to be where communitys grow rather than the scorched and salted earth of GW mandatory and regulated fun of 'GW be all of the hobby, all else is heresy and witchcraft"

Gaming clubs don't tend to be a thing in North America. You either play in a store or at home. It's rare to find a gaming club. They do exist, but are few and far between. North American gaming communities tend to be centered on stores. A good FLGS if you're lucky. GW if you're not. Then again, the majority of North Americans will never see a GW store. There are so few with most states having no stores.

Maybe but I figured as OP flag shows OZ, a price per SQ/M issue would arise leading to smaller FLGS's and maybe a club culture (yes OZ is huge but its really only able to support humans about 50miles in-land!)


I think that's quite the major difference between UK and US that larger stores means you don't have to club, yes the UK has some sizeable stores but they even they tend to be city-centric as that's the size of customer base you need to be viable

I agree, game clubs are rare in the states and most games workshop stores are small. Our local GW has two tables and the building size should only have one..
So if there is games going with 8-10 people in the store, you just hope everyone has showered and has deodorant before coming to the store.

If the original poster has concern try to find a neutral place to play..plus if you keep your purchases to the other store why shouldn't the store you are playing
at charge for tables.. because if you are doing it.. more than likely other players are doing it also

I've started to see a lot of people post "is this wrong??" forum questions.. I just don't know how to take this.. has morality gone away that much??
So next week we will see.. "I can not afford Games Workshop.. Should I rob a bank??"

I could be considered a "sap" but I figure if you use the facilities of a business, they should get your business.
I believe in rewarding "good behavior".

I have my own dilemma with my FLGS.
Their stuff is about 30% more expensive (the markup is a wee bit greedy) than a place up the road BUT the FLGS hosts a huge play area.
I find the big ticket items greater than $100 I go up the road, incidental stuff or the odd $30-$60 kit I will buy at the FLGS.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Maybe but I figured as OP flag shows OZ, a price per SQ/M issue would arise leading to smaller FLGS's and maybe a club culture (yes OZ is huge but its really only able to support humans about 50miles in-land!)

Most of the GW shops around here are actually quite large, larger than the ones I went to while I was in the USA. Even the one in the city centre where rent must be a fortune is quite large (though I noticed they moved out of the shopping district a few years ago and in to the business district).

But the OP isn't in the same city as me, so maybe they're smaller in Sydney.

There are plenty of clubs as well though, and a few dedicated gaming stores that have proper large areas for gaming with 10+ tables.

For the most part i buy from my store i play at, the only stuff i dont get from it is brushes, primer, non gw models, and afew other things. i would feel bad though if i bought everything online or in other stores though.

Talizvar wrote:I could be considered a "sap" but I figure if you use the facilities of a business, they should get your business.
I believe in rewarding "good behavior".

I have my own dilemma with my FLGS.
Their stuff is about 30% more expensive (the markup is a wee bit greedy) than a place up the road BUT the FLGS hosts a huge play area.
I find the big ticket items greater than $100 I go up the road, incidental stuff or the odd $30-$60 kit I will buy at the FLGS.

I feel for you. I am like you. I don't know if it's a 30% mark up where I buy, he just charges what the GW site charges. So no mark up there. I could have saved about $100 by driving 2 hours, (1 hour there, 1 hour back) and I bought it from my FLGS at full price. The way I see it, when we did have comic stores selling GW product but then they all closed up shop so for over 10 years the only way to buy GW stuff was through the interent or driving else where. Now I have a store open up shop, I can buy from him, and we have a place to play now.

So I out weigh, saving a $100, collecting dust in my basement and not get no games, or pay full price, collect dust in my basement, but now I can get gaming now. So a lot of times at least form me, the savings are not really savings when I can't get no games and be motivated to just model anymore like I did for the last 10 years or more. Maybe that is why I have such a huge collection downstairs collecting dust. No motivation to model paint since I can't get any games. Ironically now I can get games but have other issues that prevent me from modelling and painting now. :(

I feel like I'm loitering if I don't give some business to the places I hobby/game in.

I'll buy, at the very least, a paint pot. Pretty much the cheapest thing that I can use.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
I feel like I'm loitering if I don't give some business to the places I hobby/game in.

I'll buy, at the very least, a paint pot. Pretty much the cheapest thing that I can use.

This is how I feel as well. The only time I buy models as the GW are when they're web-only (so they get some credit), but other than that I don't actually buy models from GW directly at all. I buy all my paint there though.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I

I've started to see a lot of people post "is this wrong??" forum questions.. I just don't know how to take this.. has morality gone away that much??
So next week we will see.. "I can not afford Games Workshop.. Should I rob a bank??"

Short answer. it's pretty bad, part of the reason my local FLGS shut up was people buying online and then using the limited tablespace, this was over a decade ago and the 'special snowflake' culture has only gotten worse since

 Peregrine wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
No they don't, do they stock their own stores first yes as does every other company in the world. Saying they deliberately delay orders is nonsense.

Obviously there's no proof (or GW would be in some serious legal trouble), but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that GW has done exactly that. GW opens a store in the same area as successful independent stores, and suddenly the independent stores have trouble getting inventory even when there's no apparent supply problem for stores in general. The only real question is whether GW still does this, as most of the stories seem to be years in the past.

I have to agree with Perry here. This definitely was a thing in the past that I have firsthand experience of. More recently (but before Saturday became release day), it happened in a slightly different way - the GW store would get their stock in advance on the release date, so it was ready to be on shelf at opening time, while the indy stockists could (and often did) get their stock on opening day. Theoretically it was to prevent indies breaking street date and so "equal", but indy stores need to unpack, inventory, etc - and the GW stock going from delivery box to the shelf isn't their highest priority in an operating multi-product line business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BigWaaagh wrote:
"Wrong?"...meh. That can be debated until the cows come home and even then there will always be two sides to the debate left standing.
I will just say that 10% isn't much of a discount. Frankly, it's not something that even pops up on my radar. You can get 20% off, or better, just about everywhere on the web, Ebay, Dakka Swap Shop, etc. so is all I have to say to that offer.

Discount culture is significantly different outside the US. OP is located in Australia - so there's also shipping if he buys from eBay, the GW embargo to deal with, etc. There are ways around the embargo, but they're not as simple as just choosing what you want to purchase and buying it. I've been trying to get a few things for literally months with no luck - and sometimes you can miss out on products entirely if you want to play the online buying game.

Back OT, with my opinion of said FLGS discount being that it's not worth the time and GW being a center for the exclusive enjoyment and support of tabletop gaming, hobbying and camaraderie for only 10% more, I don't think there's a debate. Support where you play.

Agreement with this part of your post,

I'm a big supporter of pay where you play - if they have it. This is made easier at my FLGS which serves hot food, so I'll spend the equivalent of a small purchase buying a burger, chips and drink while playing games. Better than giving it to a nearby fast food chain.

They make it hard with general purchases. I'll look there first, but their stock is fairly limited for the games I play and I work a short distance from the retail outlet of one of the southern hemispheres biggest online stores, so general purchases usually go to them. But that's, again, only after knowing that my FLGS doesn't have what I want. All pre orders go through the FLGS though, and they generally pre-empt me by asking if I want to pre order any upcoming Infinity stuff.

Initially, my thoughts were that it wouldn't bother me to buy game stuff in one store (or online, as I generally do), and play in another - especially if the store you normally buy from doesn't has play space (whether upstairs or online).

However, after some thought, it did strike me that this is akin to ordering from Domino's pizza and going to eat it at Pizza Hut. Most people would consider that at least rude, and I'd imagine the store owner would be within his right to ask an offender to leave.

I think the smart thing to do for the store owner would be to give out a card or other token for free play at the tables (counts as part of purchase - maybe have a "good 'til" date), and administer a small table charge for those who don't purchase from the store. That'd give folks like me, who often buy online because the store doesn't keep certain items/lines in stock, a place to play, but still help covering the month-to-month rent.

o.O I see that false story is still growing legs here....

There is nothing "WRONG" at all, stop putting that line of thinking out there. Its a miniatures paint and play game, why on earth is that line of thought even entertained?

If you ask the manager, and not be blatantly obvious about it. They are GW products, its a GW store. Nothing to do with that at all. Some of these white knights are acting like your bringing in a Mantic army to a GW store, or Warmahordes... Please put away that sword, before someone falls on it.

GW stores are not even like they used to be, its not like your kicking a puppy here. One or two tables, and a small area to paint/ build the kits at... hardly enough to shut the store down over... just because you bring in a couple of units to put together.

Smart thing is to honestly- Ask if its cool. Its not like the OP was being a nutter over it in any sense of the word. Chastising the idea is even beyond the pale of common sense and into the oversensitive. (Heaven forbid you save any money on an already over expensive game, because you get a small discount in another location... What exactly are you getting that line of thinking?)

And that line about "Pay where you play... where exactly are you discussing? What GW store are you talking about where you have been recently that is honestly like that anymore? I want to see pictures of that one.

There isn't even enough room in these stores to walk sideways in, let alone have more then a couple of games going on it, AND the hobby aspect. They have already, for the past couple of years, killed that dead horse.

There is also, nothing "Free" about those stores BTW. From entry to exit, the hard sell is the order of the day. Just because you can even bring anything to paint/ play with anyway is a testament to how cool that your particular store is. I'd bring in that stuff without a second thought if it was part in parcel of my GW hhhobby army.

Remember, "GW HHHobby centers..." Save the defenseless shopkeep from the evil of saving a couple of dollars! LOL!

You playing at a GW store is free advertising for GW. They should be paying you, especially if your army is painted to a high standard.

So long as someone else sees you having fun, you are creating a positive brand impression for a corporation. No one is going to remember your name, no one is going to think about the fact you took up some space for a few hours, the only positive thing that could come from it all is someone else deciding they want to engage in the hobby.

That said, I help run a friend's FLGS and get product at cost. Pretty much the only thing I can't buy cheap is Forgeworld. There is a sense of community at the FLGS, with the tournaments we organize. We don't care about where someone bought something, we care about having a large enough base of players that people will remain interested in the hobby.

When I play at a GW store, it's an act of protest. The shopkeep doesn't let me use any of my Forgeworld units or non-GW cultist models - he inspects every model I put on the board before the game starts. He comes over to force me to listen to bad advice about winning with CSMs, mostly as a way of punishing me for being there. He is constantly telling me about new things I have to have and offering to ring me up right now.

In response, I take as long as humanly possible at the table, ask all the questions I can about rules every time he is with a customer, I argue about RAW and RAI as obnoxiously as possible with whomever I am playing - often taking both sides in the same game. I leave cards for the FLGS in the bathroom and stuck to the bottom of scenery detailing the discounts over store prices. The cards have a map for how to get to the store, you can walk it when the weather is nice.

There are other dimensions to the relationship. He knows what I am there for, I know what he is there for, it's a stupid game of cat and mouse. But I would never buy anything from the GW store.

 Stormonu wrote:
Initially, my thoughts were that it wouldn't bother me to buy game stuff in one store (or online, as I generally do), and play in another - especially if the store you normally buy from doesn't has play space (whether upstairs or online).

However, after some thought, it did strike me that this is akin to ordering from Domino's pizza and going to eat it at Pizza Hut. Most people would consider that at least rude, and I'd imagine the store owner would be within his right to ask an offender to leave.

I think the smart thing to do for the store owner would be to give out a card or other token for free play at the tables (counts as part of purchase - maybe have a "good 'til" date), and administer a small table charge for those who don't purchase from the store. That'd give folks like me, who often buy online because the store doesn't keep certain items/lines in stock, a place to play, but still help covering the month-to-month rent.

For that analogy to work you'd need to be taking mantic models to play 9th age at a GW store.

GW is in no way the victim here they are making money either way.

 techsoldaten wrote:
In response, I take as long as humanly possible at the table, ask all the questions I can about rules every time he is with a customer, I argue about RAW and RAI as obnoxiously as possible with whomever I am playing - often taking both sides in the same game. I leave cards for the FLGS in the bathroom and stuck to the bottom of scenery detailing the discounts over store prices. The cards have a map for how to get to the store, you can walk it when the weather is nice.

If you don't mind paying a little extra compared to your FLGS discount you can also order stuff online and have it delivered to his store. The local GW employee here keeps begging people to come into the store and use the in-store order point to buy their online orders because otherwise it doesn't count towards the employee's sales quotas. Nothing says " you" like going out of your way to make sure someone doesn't get credit for a sale. Except saying " you" to them directly, I guess.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't mind paying a little extra compared to your FLGS discount you can also order stuff online and have it delivered to his store. The local GW employee here keeps begging people to come into the store and use the in-store order point to buy their online orders because otherwise it doesn't count towards the employee's sales quotas. Nothing says " you" like going out of your way to make sure someone doesn't get credit for a sale. Except saying " you" to them directly, I guess.

Yeah, but then I have to give him my phone number and he gets to snoop through my purchases. I have seen him going through boxes and calling people to tell them to come pick up their stuff. He's always complaining that the mail orders delivered to his store don't count towards his quota and talking to people on his phone keeps him from running his store. When he does get on the phone, the conversation lasts about 10 seconds and is devoid of anything resembling friendliness. People sometimes call him back because he rushes through conversations so fast they can not understand him.

I have also caught him arguing with people when something goes missing more than once, likely because he put the kit in the wrong bag and gave it away to someone else. People will take the same box off the shelf and ask if they can have it to complete their order. His response is no, call customer service, which I suppose is the only thing he can actually do once the order is that screwed up.

The other thing about the GW store is the army cabinets. Some stores invest in putting up nice models, but not this one. The house armies are a Warhammer Empire army which shouldn't even exist anymore, and an Imperial Fists army that looks like it was painted with Elmer's Glue and Crayola markers. I tell him he should learn to paint if he's going to sell things for people to paint, and he tells me I just don't understand his style (which could be best described as Stucco.)

To make up for it, he's constantly nagging people to put their armies on display in his cabinet. The cabinet has an front facing door with a broken lock anyone can open, and it's right next to the front door. Models have vanished from there a few times, which makes sense when you think about the fact a) he doesn't get to sell them so he doesn't really care and b) people would be more likely to steal the nice models instead of the Ronald McDonald marines he keeps around. There is a nice looking Fire Raptor sitting in the cabinet right now, in this store where FW is forbidden. I think the only reason it's still there is because people know he will get all over their case if they try to use it on the tables.

So no, I don't need to spend money there and there is nothing wrong with that. Spending money would just make the problem worse. My job is to entertain myself for a few hours by tormenting the shopkeep, playing a game, or both.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't mind paying a little extra compared to your FLGS discount you can also order stuff online and have it delivered to his store. The local GW employee here keeps begging people to come into the store and use the in-store order point to buy their online orders because otherwise it doesn't count towards the employee's sales quotas. Nothing says " you" like going out of your way to make sure someone doesn't get credit for a sale. Except saying " you" to them directly, I guess.

Yeah, but then I have to give him my phone number and he gets to snoop through my purchases. I have seen him going through boxes and calling people to tell them to come pick up their stuff. He's always complaining that the mail orders delivered to his store don't count towards his quota and talking to people on his phone keeps him from running his store. When he does get on the phone, the conversation lasts about 10 seconds and is devoid of anything resembling friendliness. People sometimes call him back because he rushes through conversations so fast they can not understand him.

I have also caught him arguing with people when something goes missing more than once, likely because he put the kit in the wrong bag and gave it away to someone else. People will take the same box off the shelf and ask if they can have it to complete their order. His response is no, call customer service, which I suppose is the only thing he can actually do once the order is that screwed up.

The other thing about the GW store is the army cabinets. Some stores invest in putting up nice models, but not this one. The house armies are a Warhammer Empire army which shouldn't even exist anymore, and an Imperial Fists army that looks like it was painted with Elmer's Glue and Crayola markers. I tell him he should learn to paint if he's going to sell things for people to paint, and he tells me I just don't understand his style (which could be best described as Stucco.)

To make up for it, he's constantly nagging people to put their armies on display in his cabinet. The cabinet has an front facing door with a broken lock anyone can open, and it's right next to the front door. Models have vanished from there a few times, which makes sense when you think about the fact a) he doesn't get to sell them so he doesn't really care and b) people would be more likely to steal the nice models instead of the Ronald McDonald marines he keeps around. There is a nice looking Fire Raptor sitting in the cabinet right now, in this store where FW is forbidden. I think the only reason it's still there is because people know he will get all over their case if they try to use it on the tables.

So no, I don't need to spend money there and there is nothing wrong with that. Spending money would just make the problem worse. My job is to entertain myself for a few hours by tormenting the shopkeep, playing a game, or both.

After reading all this I'm seriously looking for The Big Lebowski (with appropiate meme)...

You should absolutely go upstairs and support the independent store, and get 10% off whilst doing it. Worrying about supporting GW over an Independent, is like worrying about supporting Walmart over your local greengrocer. Those SoBs couldn't care less about you, they'd gouge you for everything you have, given half a chance. You don't owe them anything.

I have found something strange in the "relationship" with my FLGS: They seem to get into a falling out with the companies I WANT game stuff from.

I like 40k, for a few months here and there they do not order from GW because they made the FLGS owner angry for some reason.

I like X-wing but for some reason he cannot / will not get their product in due to some distribution issue.
Plus some toy store down the road is the cheapest place around for FFG stuff and it seems it is because of whatever falling out with the distributor had happened.

He had some Malifaux stuff and now there is nothing.

He allows ALL games for in-store play and most I like he either has limited selection or none at all.

The store IS in Bolt Action in a big way but almost everything is the starter boxes so anything different I have to order from Warlord games.

There is a pretty big Pathfinder group and I see almost nothing for the game.

The owner plays with a large group with the latest D&D and again... very little to be found.

I try to buy his stuff but unless I develop a serious Magic the Gathering habit, he is making it actively difficult to support his shop.
As best I can tell, MTG is the #1 thing that is keeping his doors open and it is huge missed opportunities having active gaming and no product in-store.

And to the people saying it's like buying food at one place and eating it at a totally different chain, that's not true, either.

You're taking GW product to a GW to assemble/paint/play.

If you want to use the food analogy, it's actually more like buying McDonald's in a Walmart then taking it to a McDonald's to eat it.

Jacksmiles wrote:
And to the people saying it's like buying food at one place and eating it at a totally different chain, that's not true, either.

You're taking GW product to a GW to assemble/paint/play.

If you want to use the food analogy, it's actually more like buying McDonald's in a Walmart then taking it to a McDonald's to eat it.

Not really. You need to seperate GW Corporate from GW retail stores. They're not the same thing. Also, I'll guarantee that second McD's manager wouldn't be happy if he was consistently paying rent, employees, electric, etc just to provide people a place to eat food they bought elsewhere... even at another McD's.

No different from any other gaming store, really. GW gaming stores are just unique in that they only sell one manufacturer's products and they happen to be owned by that manufacturer. In pretty much all other ways, they're the same as any other gaming store. They have to make sales to pay employees, pay rent, pay for new product and pay the bills. If you're doing something that undermines the manager's ability to do these things, expect to be asked to leave. The store owner isn't going to keep the store open if it's not turning a profit.

It boils down to this...

If keeping the GW store open is a priority, purchasing elsewhere but using the store's facilities is a bad decision because it undermines your priority.

The stores will stay open or close down at the whim of the market. This is really more of a question about whether or not there is a moral or ethical issue with using a for-profit business's facilities, provided to encourage sales, with no intention of ever buying anything from said business. The business in question being the downstairs GW store and NOT GW Corporate.