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https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:JRhx_CkMyPIJ:https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/11/26/war-zone-fenris-wrath-of-magnus-review-dataslates-and-special-rules/

New rules are crap, don't buy anything if you want to play them. If you like the models, by all means buy them paint them enjoy them, otherwise avoid them.

And here are the formations

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:t5laCehlCIgJ:https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/11/26/wrath-of-magnus-review-formations-and-detachments/

To all those people that told me to "have faith" and "GW has turned over a new leaf" feth you.

I know you're disappointed, but it might be worth explaining a bit more why you think they're so bad.

Considering Magnus is essentially a D-str, Necron Pylonstar onto himself, and how easily he can get off Gaze of Magnus, without needing LOS... i'd say he's pretty damn terrific already.

They are fluffy and fit. They aren't the best, but they don't seem terrible.

I think it's mostly about the rubrics staying the same price. That's pretty much the only part that the article expresses disappointment.


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Also, holy gak, if I'm going to have to buy 2 squads of blue horrors and 4 squads of brimstone horrors for every squad of pink horrors I have... I am actually feeling kind of ecstatic about this! Buckle up, because things are going to get crazy!

I have to say I am really disappointed. I have always been a TS fan. I never started them due to lack of models and different units and boring gameplay. But after seeing the new models I decided I would start them. But now after seeing the rules I am not sure anymore. I find those rules really uninspired and boring and onedimensional. I will ignore magnus and the deamons but talk of just the TS.
I remember a time when TS ignored most low strength weapon fire. Those were interesting, differentiating rules that did force you to resolve to different tactics. And the TS unit was a unit to fear. This invulnerable save they now get is okay but boring, but the reroll of 1s of failed inv you get when you take the max number of units in the formation (9) seems too hard a penalty to ever get. Would be effective yes, but really uninspired gameplay wise. I would have liked a rule like substract -1 strenght from weapon fire. Would have differentiated the TS more from other marines. Resistent to low strenght fire and not much difference to high strenght weapons and fluffy.
The rubrics get one heavy weapon per 10...could have been one heavy weapon per 9. Would have been fluffy und would not have changed a lot. Now if you want to play fluffy you can't get the soulreapercanon. Normal Firepower is only flamer or bolter. And the Rubrics are really expensive point wise. Against some armies like Orks your ap3 bolters and inv. save won't change much and you get overwhelmed by numbers, you play exactly like normal 14p marines but pay a lot more points.....
Same with Terminators. 40ppm. Mostly the same short range weapons,powersword and the same Invulnerability save, no power fist access. Better armorsave and cc but apart from that not really a big difference in gameplay between them and rubrics. MEQ killers...

The old tzeentch powers stayed with the addition of new ones. And the old ones were bad. Breath of Chaos is redundant because now you have access to a lot of flamer weapons. You just don't need another flamer weapon (ok its ap2, so its still usefull but boring) They could have just changed or updated the old powers but they did the easy way of only adding 3 new powers.
Yes they seem to be really good in the psyphase but gameplay wise a true TS seems to be very boring to play. Short range fire with more or less normal marines with invulnerable save. And spaming of psypowers. Not a lot ofinteresting things to do. The only good thing are the tzangors, it does shake up the gameplay with a little closecombat. All in all a true TS force seems really onedimensional and uninteresting. Short range MEQkiller marines with lots of psykers and inv. save.....its a lot more the before, but I'm pretty underwhelmed. Especially if you compare with the new genester cults. Are the rules balanced? I don't know, I am not a tourney player. I just find them boring und uninteresting.

SpaceOstrich wrote:
I know you're disappointed, but it might be worth explaining a bit more why you think they're so bad.

Rubric marines are still over priced, occult terminators are the new overpriced unit, Formations have lackluster rules that give you bonuses for do things that you can't do.

E.G. "let each of your psykers cast an additional spell beyond their mastery level." which on the surface sounds great, except if you are rolling minimum dice to cast spells you're not going to have the charges needed to do this.

Favored of Tzeentch requires you to MAX OUT formation in units, which is going to require so many points it not feasible.

About the only good formation in the mix is the The War Coven/Ahriman’s Exiled which give limited bonuses but are at least usable.

 Quarterdime wrote:
I think it's mostly about the rubrics staying the same price. That's pretty much the only part that the article expresses disappointment.


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Also, holy gak, if I'm going to have to buy 2 squads of blue horrors and 4 squads of brimstone horrors for every squad of pink horrors I have... I am actually feeling kind of ecstatic about this! Buckle up, because things are going to get crazy!

Great, Kirby was right, thanks for proving that.

Joyboozer wrote:
Great, Kirby was right, thanks for proving that.

Its not just that it's "upgrades" that cost 7 points but make the unit objectively worse in every way. Its the powers being the same old table with some new stuff slapped on. It's the fact that TS are no better off today than they were yesterday.

Can't say I'm surprised to see the sky falling here. Pathetic whining as opposed to looking at how it can work. You don't like it, fine, but there are plenty that do and I for one welcome the new chaos stuff with.open arms.

Though I understand the units are pretty expensive... The sheer amount of psyhic powers that are going to be thrown around will be insane! Though relying on warp-charge dice isn't great the number of mastery levels that you can put on the board, (combined with the artifact that provides extra warp charge) will still mean a silly number of powers going off every turn, and I can imagine that's going to mean a lot of things dying in balls of warp-fire! If anything, the only part I'm peeved about is the one-in-ten for the pseudo-assaault-cannon for the rubrics, one in five would have been really nice!

In short, I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out!

Any spoilers on the story?

 NathanD298 wrote:
Though I understand the units are pretty expensive... The sheer amount of psyhic powers that are going to be thrown around will be insane! Though relying on warp-charge dice isn't great the number of mastery levels that you can put on the board, (combined with the artifact that provides extra warp charge) will still mean a silly number of powers going off every turn, and I can imagine that's going to mean a lot of things dying in balls of warp-fire! If anything, the only part I'm peeved about is the one-in-ten for the pseudo-assaault-cannon for the rubrics, one in five would have been really nice!

In short, I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out!

There isn't an artifact to increase the number of warp charges, there is a spell that increases warp charges but you have to get that spell, and if you don't then your screwed.


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Kijamon wrote:
Any spoilers on the story?

someone else has already started a thread here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709345.page

no, there is no sky is falling whining. they're objectively pretty gak.

new horror rules are pretty bonkers though. rest of it? bleh. a swing and a miss.

To be quite honest, this is all WAY more than I was expecting to see. I was hoping for a decent plastic rendering of rubric marines and no new rules, and I got so much more. I'm very happy with what we got, not gonna bash anyone who thinks otherwise, but I'm absolutely delighted. GW may not have changed, but change is here.

rtb02 wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised to see the sky falling here. Pathetic whining as opposed to looking at how it can work. You don't like it, fine, but there are plenty that do and I for one welcome the new chaos stuff with.open arms.

I realize your just a GW fanboi that thinks they can never do anything wrong, but contrary to your stance of totally infallible they are humans and can make mistakes.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 NathanD298 wrote:
Though I understand the units are pretty expensive... The sheer amount of psyhic powers that are going to be thrown around will be insane! Though relying on warp-charge dice isn't great the number of mastery levels that you can put on the board, (combined with the artifact that provides extra warp charge) will still mean a silly number of powers going off every turn, and I can imagine that's going to mean a lot of things dying in balls of warp-fire! If anything, the only part I'm peeved about is the one-in-ten for the pseudo-assaault-cannon for the rubrics, one in five would have been really nice!

In short, I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out!

There isn't an artifact to increase the number of warp charges, there is a spell that increases warp charges but you have to get that spell, and if you don't then your screwed.


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Kijamon wrote:
Any spoilers on the story?

someone else has already started a thread here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709345.page

Oh, my bad.

Either way, I'm gonna wait and see how this goes! I think it'll be an interesting army on the table, and I look forward to seeing them!

The terminator is 40 points, not 50.

Comes with stock VotLW, MoT, inferno bolts and power swords.
Not horrible, not great.

The real kicked that makes scarabs not only "ok", but pretty darn good, is the fact that the sarge costs 90.

What is 90 points sarge good?
Because a level 2 sorcerer in termi armor, MoT and VotLW costs 130, and the two has the same statline, and practically same gear.

So your scarab sarge is a port of an hq.a suboptimal build of an hq, but at a MASSIVE discout.
In fact, a level 2 sorcerer in termi armor without MoT and VotLW is already 110, well above the scarab sarge. and MoT is not irrelevant when it comes to units with invuls.


Scarabs are pretty cool. they are a strong, flavorful unit-but not OP as feth.
Unfortunately, some people's standards have devolved to the point that "not op"="trash" in their minds.

Shame on the rubrics though, these really are a flop.
The weapons "upgrades" being really lousy is a double flop. making cool new models, and zero incentive to buy them other than the awesome looks.
But considering how little information about the actual formations there is in the frontline listing, maybe there are formations where they shine. if you got one that's easy to fill, the rerolls of 1 makes them quite hardy (thats any 1 to save, not just invul)



The exalted sorcerers too, are nothing spectacular, but not overly BAD. they are an improved version of a rather good unit for a price increase. a bit too much increase in my eyes, but nothing outrages. plues, we might still be missing something about them.


Overall, I say this is a decent release.
Not the top-tier turny stomping army some people were wishlisting for, but its solid. it will hold its own, have a fluffy unique playstyle and might even run for top tables in the right meta. (in a marine heavy meta, the sheer amounts of AP3 is invaluable. in a counter-marine meta, the strong invuls everywhere are also valuable!)

Its no eldar, nor gladius. but any non-gladius marine army, would curse the day he crossed the 1ksons.
At least that's my prediction. could be wrong.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

rtb02 wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised to see the sky falling here. Pathetic whining as opposed to looking at how it can work. You don't like it, fine, but there are plenty that do and I for one welcome the new chaos stuff with.open arms.

I realize your just a GW fanboi that thinks they can never do anything wrong, but contrary to your stance of totally infallible they are humans and can make mistakes.

Not entirely sure this classes as a mistake; simply not to your taste.

 gigasnail wrote:
no, there is no sky is falling whining. they're objectively pretty gak.

new horror rules are pretty bonkers though. rest of it? bleh. a swing and a miss.

Yes the new horrors are too good IMHO and coupled with Magnus being just shy of having infinite wounds your going to see a lot of armies that are just Magnus and mobs and mobs of pink horrors to give him the warp charges he needs to cast 5 spells a turn.

So what is the Original Poster complaining about? Is this another whine post without explaining and expecting people to do his reading for him to see his point?

Is this another "just because I say so, so I am correct" thread again?

You're not going to be short on Warp charges.

For 30 pts. Brimstone Horrors give you 1 warp charge, can cast, can score, 3++ rerolling ones when going to ground, etc.

They're going to be Warp Charge generators for a low low tax.

Well Daemons became better.

Get on our level mortals.

 NathanD298 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

rtb02 wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised to see the sky falling here. Pathetic whining as opposed to looking at how it can work. You don't like it, fine, but there are plenty that do and I for one welcome the new chaos stuff with.open arms.

I realize your just a GW fanboi that thinks they can never do anything wrong, but contrary to your stance of totally infallible they are humans and can make mistakes.

Not entirely sure this classes as a mistake; simply not to your taste.

Its not even about taste I LOVE LOVE LOVE the psychic phase, and if there were a way to get extra charges with Sorcs guaranteed it would be a pretty good rule, but as of right now that is not the case. The only way for you to get the 1 spell you need is to take almost 300 points in sorcerers and then you're rolling a whole bunch on a table that has some fething TERRIBLE spells.

On top of that the reason why TS are considered to be so bad is because they have the same durability as a 13 point model but cost 23, they desperately needed a durability increase. They ONLY thing they added was a reroll 1s and that is with a perticular rule that requires you to MAX out your formation, which means your going to pay a gak ton of points, probably well over 2k, which means your never going to be able to use it.


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 Lou_Cypher wrote:
You're not going to be short on Warp charges.

For 30 pts. Brimstone Horrors give you 1 warp charge, can cast, can score, 3++ rerolling ones when going to ground, etc.

They're going to be Warp Charge generators for a low low tax.

Yes, because all those pink horrors in my TS army. and GTG doesn't improve your invul save.

I don't run daemons, I don't like daemons, I don't summon daemons. From the perspective of a daemons player things went fairly well, but from a TS perspective it was not at all good.


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 dan2026 wrote:
Well Daemons became better.

Get on our level mortals.

Exactly.

I didn't see Rubrics improving much but having Soul Blaze standard instead of a stupid Icon was a welcome fix, as unpowerful as Soul Blaze is. Also sucks you need ten dudes for the new Cannon. That's said, most fluff bunnies were running them in big units anyway and no competitive player was going to use them, as they'd have needed too much fixing.

The Terminators are definitely going to be a hit. They get a couple rolls on the new table and their weapons options don't suck too much.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't see Rubrics improving much but having Soul Blaze standard instead of a stupid Icon was a welcome fix, as unpowerful as Soul Blaze is. Also sucks you need ten dudes for the new Cannon. That's said, most fluff bunnies were running them in big units anyway and no competitive player was going to use them, as they'd have needed too much fixing.

The Terminators are definitely going to be a hit. They get a couple rolls on the new table and their weapons options don't suck too much.

Wait...totally forgot about the icon!

So...the icon must do something else now!

Anyone happened to run into information on the icon?

Two heavies per terminator squads? 3++ with possible rerollable 1's? Better flamers? Tangors and pink horrors as cheap troops (3++ or 4++ with blessings)?

Sure they are pricey, but they also have durability that other marines don't have. The terminators are effectively lawn mowers with ap3 weapons all around, 3++, and power weapons (can take other weapons like pf).

I'm pretty happy for once. It may not be perfect but chaos finally got new toys, characters, models, and love. I'm seeing glass half full.

 455_PWR wrote:
The terminators are effectively lawn mowers with ap3 weapons all around, 3++, and power weapons (can take other weapons like pf).

Are you sure they can take other cc weapons? Because the sprue doesn't come with other cc options than the swords and there are no mentions of them being able to take other cc weapons anywhere.

Uhh, you guys realise there's already a Thousand Sons thread in the N&R board?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Great, Kirby was right, thanks for proving that.

Its not just that it's "upgrades" that cost 7 points but make the unit objectively worse in every way. Its the powers being the same old table with some new stuff slapped on. It's the fact that TS are no better off today than they were yesterday.

Not sure why you quoted me, I'm disgusted that poster is excited at buying miniatures in amounts because they're required.