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 MagicJuggler wrote:

Table wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.

Yes but psychic focus is not the only way to generate a primaris. It just gives you the primaris for free. During generation you can swap a rolled power for that disp's primaris. Alot of people get this rule wrong.

It's not necessarily the point so much as that the power you get in exchange (Firestorm) is so hilariously terrible. If Thousand Sons got Flickerfire as their Chaos Primaris, I seriously doubt there would be complaining (especially when you could put it on a War Cabal Ahriman!).

I haven't tried it out on the table, but just based on the text Firestorm seems like an OK horde thinner, if nothing else.

Brian888 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Table wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.

Yes but psychic focus is not the only way to generate a primaris. It just gives you the primaris for free. During generation you can swap a rolled power for that disp's primaris. Alot of people get this rule wrong.

It's not necessarily the point so much as that the power you get in exchange (Firestorm) is so hilariously terrible. If Thousand Sons got Flickerfire as their Chaos Primaris, I seriously doubt there would be complaining (especially when you could put it on a War Cabal Ahriman!).

I haven't tried it out on the table, but just based on the text Firestorm seems like an OK horde thinner, if nothing else.

When you try it you will realize it is really really bad. Tremendously bad to be precise. For the same WC cost, Sinistrum offers a primaris that is a str 5 blast (above the average firestorm roll) and offers ap3 instead of ap-. The lore of tzeentch primaris is really really bad. I can't understand why they did not change the primaris and Boon since they went out of the way to update the lore anyways. Changing the firestorm to a large blast would go a long way to actually offer something (although it would still be situational at best). And Boon should have gone out of the window all together, along with all the favoured of the gods roll and the need for challenges in the first place. Anachronistic mechanics that offer zero functionality and add little-to-zero to the fluff and just make the game slow and boring should make way for new stuff. Alas, it is not this day.

Fair enough.

Brian888 wrote:Is Boon of Mutation really that bad, though? On a scarab sorcerer, you've got about a 92% chance of not suffering the S4 AP- wound. Once you're rolling on the actual boon table, you only have a slightly-less-than 6% chance of turning into a Spawn. Otherwise, you have a little-over 17% chance of nothing happening, and a roughly 75% chance of getting something good (potentially very good, if you roll a 64 on the boon table).

A 6% chance of killing a 90 point otherwise almost indestructible model (In a full war cabal) for a likely useless "reward" and costing precious warp charge isn't my idea of good or meh.

MagicJuggler wrote:It's not necessarily the point so much as that the power you get in exchange (Firestorm) is so hilariously terrible. If Thousand Sons got Flickerfire as their Chaos Primaris, I seriously doubt there would be complaining (especially when you could put it on a War Cabal Ahriman!).

Anyone who complained would quickly be taken out the back beaten and then shot. I wish doombolt was the primaris personally, though I'd definately accept flickering as a more than welcome substitute.

Brian888 wrote:I haven't tried it out on the table, but just based on the text Firestorm seems like an OK horde thinner, if nothing else.

- You've got to manifest (not that difficult, but still a reasonable chance for failure), we'll be generous, lets say 2 dice with a spell familiiar - that's a 93.75% success rate.
- The you can be denied (I certainly wouldn't waste deny dice on it, but it can happen), we'll say the enemy doesn't bother to dispel - still at 93.75% success
- Then you determine if it hits - assuming a BS4 caster that's about 61.11% chance that you hit what you aimed at, though if you're shooting into a hoarde and aim for roughly the centre, you can't really miss. Again, we'll be generous and say you hit. Still 93.75%
- Then comes the str. d6 + 1 = 4.5 on average. Not terrible, but the very real possibility of being str2 means it's not something to be counted on. Anyway, we'll ge generous again and assume since we're fighting hoardes that we're wounding against T3. All good so far.
- Now, how many hits did we do? In a perfect world, probably 1, but since hoarde players don't have that sort of time, again we'll be generous and say 3 which is a rather high number for a small blast, but whatever. that's ~2.25 wounds. It's AP- so even cultists are getting an armour save, but cover is plentiful and hoarde players aren't silly, so we'll say they're saving on 5's which cut's it down to 1.5 unsaved wounds.
- We then generate 1.5 x d3 [average of 2] str3 ap- hits due to the Inferno special rule, which cause another 1 unsaved wounds.
- So, once we account for fluffing our rolls 6.25% of the time, we're down to [1.5+1] * 0.9375 = ~2.34 unsaved wounds. You've killed 2 cultists/termagaunts.guardsmen assuming everything went pretty much perfectly. 8-10 points is pretty pathetic and nor even worth the posibility of periling our caster.

Against something like marines, even assuming your casting stays the same and they don't deny, you're looking at 1 hit, wounding on 3's or 4's with a 3+ save [0.19 unsaved wounds] and probably not even rolling for that additional d3 hits and the grand total is ~0.22 unsaved wounds against MEQ's. Does that sound like a good thing to cast, taking 4-5 turns to kill a single Marine or killing 2 guardsmen a turn with literally everything going at better than average success?

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Table wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.

Yes but psychic focus is not the only way to generate a primaris. It just gives you the primaris for free. During generation you can swap a rolled power for that disp's primaris. Alot of people get this rule wrong.

It's not necessarily the point so much as that the power you get in exchange (Firestorm) is so hilariously terrible. If Thousand Sons got Flickerfire as their Chaos Primaris, I seriously doubt there would be complaining (especially when you could put it on a War Cabal Ahriman!).

So the problem is that we get a garbage primaris for free and that prevents us from getting a free primaris in another disp? Then I agree. Forced generation on marks is stupid and should be over turned in 8th. But it does not prevent us from swapping powers for other better primaris. Sorry If I got the intent wrong on your post. Ive seen a few people stating lately that marks sorcs cant get other primaris powers, which is untrue of course.

So...one other thing is bothering me.

How the Warp are Thousand Sons supposed to beat Grey Knights?

Grey Knights get Mastery Levels throughout their army, but in practice they exist to either fuel big powers from the Librarian or to make it easier to deny.

They can get Adamantium Will on their units for 5 points apiece.

They re-roll 1s to deny.

The army is majority 2+ armor saves, and doesn't have many "big guns" worth using Treason on...

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So...one other thing is bothering me.

How the Warp are Thousand Sons supposed to beat Grey Knights?

Grey Knights get Mastery Levels throughout their army, but in practice they exist to either fuel big powers from the Librarian or to make it easier to deny.

They can get Adamantium Will on their units for 5 points apiece.

They re-roll 1s to deny.

The army is majority 2+ armor saves, and doesn't have many "big guns" worth using Treason on...

The one time I played them I drew but I Shrieked both Dread Knights to death with Ahriman and an Exalted Sorc in a termie squad first turn after he ran right up to my front line with them. Next round I shot and wounded one, but put INV on a rubric squad that was face to face with the second one, but the previous Ex Sorc was with disc and Seer's Bane and just ripped it a new one. As for the rest, Grimoire on the Termies let them get close enough to shoot and slaughter anything with a 3+. I just ignored his terminators as he deep struck them some distance away to be safe. We did end up drawing, and Ahriman peril'd himself to death but points wise, I clearly came out ahead.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So...one other thing is bothering me.

How the Warp are Thousand Sons supposed to beat Grey Knights?

Grey Knights get Mastery Levels throughout their army, but in practice they exist to either fuel big powers from the Librarian or to make it easier to deny.

They can get Adamantium Will on their units for 5 points apiece.

They re-roll 1s to deny.

The army is majority 2+ armor saves, and doesn't have many "big guns" worth using Treason on...

Psychic shriek, doombolts, seer's bane. Adamantium will or not, they have nowhere near the amount of WC that we can have.

Considering that a 5-man unit of GK Terminators costs very similar to a basic 5-man unit of Rubrics though and grants the same number of WC...

...and what happens if the GK Librarian rolls Libraries and then gets the aura of 4++ vs Witchfires? That's just going to make things even more awkward.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Considering that a 5-man unit of GK Terminators costs very similar to a basic 5-man unit of Rubrics though and grants the same number of WC...

...and what happens if the GK Librarian rolls Libraries and then gets the aura of 4++ vs Witchfires? That's just going to make things even more awkward.

And what happens if he doesn't? And what if he does? Don't you plan to deny anything with your 25+ warp charges on their turn? We have a much better psychic phase and we have better saves. They have better shooting and their knights. We'll play to our strengths. Scream the knights, doombolt the terminators, seer's bane on an exalted on a disc. Keep our distance, use our blessing of tzeentch to outlast them. Don't know where all the panic comes from. GK are a slow list.

For those running the successful maxed cabal at 1850, how are you building it?

with minimum rubrics and minimum scarabs, you have room for maybe 1 relic (seers bane or grimoire) if you want ml3 and familiars on the rest of your sorcerers. and that's if you take an exalted or ahriman as a warlord

Well, all that being a given.

In a smaller list, where one cannot afford ALL the toys, who would you go for as your warlord?

1-Arhiman on disk
2-Exalted Sorcerer with Seer's Bane on disk?
3-some sort of prince setup

Both are good, both do different things, both are fething awesome when used right.
But who's the better "man"?

(lovely thing about 1ksons, no point asking what's the rest of the list, its pretty much the same XD)


Also, for rubrics.
A rhino is a worthy investment?
And if so, what about a combi-melta? seems like its a way to sneak in a few melta shots people are probably going to forget are even there (who looks at rhinos for melta anyway?), though a 45 point rihno is getting expensive. especially when everything else is already expensive (and odds are, the rihno is getting shot at anyways)

Ahriman is mobile artillery that deals with tanks or MCs with heretech/shriek. also a really useful warlord trait for a slow army.

Exalted is a beatstick that deals with 2+ saves and MCs

Prince i have little experience with but is a pricier option and may be able to deal with all 3 (with the black mace).

Depends on whether the rest of your list can deal with what "the man" can't

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Culexus has 4 base attacks that hits on 3s and wounds on 4s that ignores armor save which equates to .8333W, so he could possibly kill at least 1 Rubrics per turn.

You know Rubrics have a 4++ save, right? It's .667W. You also messed up your offensive analysis, you calculated 1/2 of the actual CC output and didn't include either shooting damage or charge bonuses. At the end of the day, you don't want the Culexus running around chucking grenades at your 260pt HQs. So somebody has to step up to the plate.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
To me, the cost that is hard to stomach is the warp charge one. I've generally got higher priority spells to use those dice on. Maybe in the first turn when there isn't much else in range?

I think so. Boon gives you a way to expend unused dice other than Summoning. The bonuses are worthwhile if you can manipulate the table. It's awesome on a 250+ pt character with CC powers, but that 5.6% chance of Spawnhood will eventually cost games. Fateweaver is too expensive, the Tzeentch table is unreliable. A Dark Apostle is probably your only practical option (drops Spawnhood to 0.31%). More hoops to jump through. It's really too bad the TS Sorcs aren't simply immune to 21-22 and 65-66 as a Faction bonus, that was the whole point of the Rubric.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I can't understand why they did not change the primaris and Boon since they went out of the way to update the lore anyways.

I don't think they changed any of the other CSM disciplines, right? They're probably waiting on a new codex release.

They were updated in traitor legions.

Ericthegreen wrote:
They were updated in traitor legions.

Care to go into more detail? What was updated?

They picked up an extra three powers, to make a full table. I don't believe they modified any existing powers or reshuffled the primaris.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Considering that a 5-man unit of GK Terminators costs very similar to a basic 5-man unit of Rubrics though and grants the same number of WC...

...and what happens if the GK Librarian rolls Libraries and then gets the aura of 4++ vs Witchfires? That's just going to make things even more awkward.

And what happens if he doesn't? And what if he does? Don't you plan to deny anything with your 25+ warp charges on their turn? We have a much better psychic phase and we have better saves. They have better shooting and their knights. We'll play to our strengths. Scream the knights, doombolt the terminators, seer's bane on an exalted on a disc. Keep our distance, use our blessing of tzeentch to outlast them. Don't know where all the panic comes from. GK are a slow list.

How are you getting 25 WC for 1850, while having an actual army to back it up?

has anyone come to decide the "ideal"number of flamers to not be overkill? also want to mount all my rubrics in rhinos.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Culexus has 4 base attacks that hits on 3s and wounds on 4s that ignores armor save which equates to .8333W, so he could possibly kill at least 1 Rubrics per turn.

You know Rubrics have a 4++ save, right? It's .667W. You also messed up your offensive analysis, you calculated 1/2 of the actual CC output and didn't include either shooting damage or charge bonuses. At the end of the day, you don't want the Culexus running around chucking grenades at your 260pt HQs. So somebody has to step up to the plate.

I did factor in the 4++ save, I accidentally multiply by .833 instead of .667 for to hit rolls, but its still way better than what the rubrics can do.

What half? Who is to say rubrics gets to charge the assassin and vice versa? Let say the assassin is 15" away, you move 6" close to within rapid fire, 9 shots after saves equates to .375W. Then on the assassins turn he proceeds to hit them with animus follow by psyk-out grenade. In CC, the assassin also swings first potentially killing somebody before rubrics swings back. Math don't lie, you can't win with a single rubrics unit.

Now you can keep arguing other factors, Gladius has way more fire power and bodies to put on the board. They could easily bubble wrap the assassin and prevent you from charging or hide him behind a rhino out of LOS.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Culexus has 4 base attacks that hits on 3s and wounds on 4s that ignores armor save which equates to .8333W, so he could possibly kill at least 1 Rubrics per turn.

You know Rubrics have a 4++ save, right? It's .667W. You also messed up your offensive analysis, you calculated 1/2 of the actual CC output and didn't include either shooting damage or charge bonuses. At the end of the day, you don't want the Culexus running around chucking grenades at your 260pt HQs. So somebody has to step up to the plate.

I did factor in the 4++ save, I accidentally multiply by .833 instead of .667 for to hit rolls, but its still way better than what the rubrics can do.

What half? Who is to say rubrics gets to charge the assassin and vice versa? Let say the assassin is 15" away, you move 6" close to within rapid fire, 9 shots after saves equates to .375W. Then on the assassins turn he proceeds to hit them with animus follow by psyk-out grenade. In CC, the assassin also swings first potentially killing somebody before rubrics swings back. Math don't lie, you can't win with a single rubrics unit.

Now you can keep arguing other factors, Gladius has way more fire power and bodies to put on the board. They could easily bubble wrap the assassin and prevent you from charging or hide him behind a rhino out of LOS.

Thousand Sons lists are worse than the most optimized list currently in the game. Same goes for all CSM, Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Daemons etc. We all know this, it is not actually news. What's the point you are trying to make? That if what is the best list in the game also specifically tailors against ours by adding anti-psyker assassins then it will win? Well that's shocking. Or do you expect Thousand Son lists to suddenly stop using psychers because Gladiuses have Culexii? I am trying to find the contribution in this but I fail to do so.

Ericthegreen wrote:For those running the successful maxed cabal at 1850, how are you building it?

with minimum rubrics and minimum scarabs, you have room for maybe 1 relic (seers bane or grimoire) if you want ml3 and familiars on the rest of your sorcerers. and that's if you take an exalted or ahriman as a warlord

My spare 90 points has been going to an exalted upgrade (60) for 1 sorceror since I like having the extra wound for my warlord and the Astral Grimoure (30). Most recently however I have been toying with the idea of dropping back to 4 normal sorcerors and using those 60 points for melta bombs and some AoDG's to deal with the influx of walkers and drop pods that have appeared without resorting to taking nothing but Heretek on every caster. The Astral Grimoure has been far, far too useful not to include so far as the ability to have a larger threat radius for a unit has led to a tactical flexibility I haven't enjoyed with Thousand Sons for, well ... ever. I will have to try out Ahriman as warlord though, as it not only gets me a 3W warlord, but also assured infiltrate to address at least some of the mobility issues and another WC is rarely a bad thing.

BoomWolf wrote:
1-Arhiman on disk
2-Exalted Sorcerer with Seer's Bane on disk?
3-some sort of prince setup

You can't afford the first 2 at 1850 if you have ML3 and familiars on the other 3 sorcs and any prince at 230 points is generally going to be a crappy one since with just MoT and wings he's 200 before familiar, armour or caster levels.

BoomWolf wrote:Also, for rubrics.
A rhino is a worthy investment?
And if so, what about a combi-melta? seems like its a way to sneak in a few melta shots people are probably going to forget are even there (who looks at rhinos for melta anyway?), though a 45 point rihno is getting expensive. especially when everything else is already expensive (and odds are, the rihno is getting shot at anyways)

Rhinos are always great, but again, if you want ML3 casters at 1850, you've only g7ot 90 spare points, so the question becomes is 2 rhinos better than guns on Scarabs or upgrades on HQ sorcs? I'm of the opinion that it isn't, but others might be finding differently as I haven't tried them out with a pair of rhinos yet. I will say that I tried to make Sons work without rhinos for ages previously and never had much success while my win rate jumped markedly as soon as I included rhinos previously. I think I'll try Ahriman as warlord before I hand over such an easy source of first blood however, especially given that the army is reasonably difficult to get first blood off if they don't take them. As for the meltas, it might work once, but never against the same opponent and even then, I'd wager that your rhinos are going to be smoking wreckage before you get to fire them since there will be absolutely no other vehicles on the field.

eosgreen wrote:has anyone come to decide the "ideal"number of flamers to not be overkill? also want to mount all my rubrics in rhinos.

The ideal number of flamers is 0 IMHO, though if you're running mounted rubricae, then 1 or 2 could be used for drive-bys but I'd still be wary of the increased cost and of handing out FNP more often than doing the extra wounds.

topaxygouroun i wrote:Thousand Sons lists are worse than the most optimized list currently in the game. Same goes for all CSM, Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Daemons etc. We all know this, it is not actually news. What's the point you are trying to make? That if what is the best list in the game also specifically tailors against ours by adding anti-psyker assassins then it will win? Well that's shocking. Or do you expect Thousand Son lists to suddenly stop using psychers because Gladiuses have Culexii? I am trying to find the contribution in this but I fail to do so.

I think that he's trying to point out a very hard counter to almost any build we come up with that can easily slot into one of the most common tournament armies that's not eldar, one that isn't even included with the intent to counter us, just that it happens to shut us down so hard to the point where there's not much point even putting armies on the table unless your opponent has had a lobotomy. How do you counter it with a full war cabal? I have no idea. I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder. But that is definately not something to be relied upon, especially since if you don't kill him, you're next up on the chopping block since unless you've got another sorceror to feed him, you're getting challenged next at initiative more than you with instant death ap2 that hits on 3's. The 40 odd bolter shots that it takes to bring him down once he's out of a rhino that you're going to have a hard time popping is probably more than your whole army can manage in a turn. Again, this is a tactics thread, problems like this are something to be brought to the attention of all Sons players so they're not completely out in the cold when they face it for the first time.

Perhaps I should have been clear about this, I'm not running a deck-out war cabal.

Don't have the terminators for it, just 1 set of prospero marines and a few random CSM units from before.

My questions was for generic 1ksons, not full cabal 1ksons.

There, you really can't play unless 2000 points methinks.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Perhaps I should have been clear about this, I'm not running a deck-out war cabal.

Don't have the terminators for it, just 1 set of prospero marines and a few random CSM units from before.

My questions was for generic 1ksons, not full cabal 1ksons.

There, you really can't play unless 2000 points methinks.

As mono-TS... you're probably right.

But, have you considered building a Lorestealer's Host+Archanistic Herald? Adding a demon detachment adds more WC and flexibility.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Perhaps I should have been clear about this, I'm not running a deck-out war cabal.

Don't have the terminators for it, just 1 set of prospero marines and a few random CSM units from before.

My questions was for generic 1ksons, not full cabal 1ksons.

There, you really can't play unless 2000 points methinks.

In that case, yes, rhinos are virtually mandatory IMHO unless you're running Ahriman, and sometimes even then. The mobility boost is huge as getting them to midfield is one of the few things that can help keep them relevent as they can punish units out of cover as well as threaten quite a few things with rapidfire and a charge as well as holding up quite a few things that they can't hurt so well but would chew through normal marines like hammernators or GK. The fact that it often buys them a round of not getting punished by anti infantry guns is also a blessing as the wreck can usually serve to block LOS and since they're fearless, they don't care about their transport getting trashed.

As to the meltas, well, I still doubt it's going to work on anyone more than once, but yeah, as long as you've got something else more pressing for them to shoot at, putting a combi on a rhino isn't the worst use of points you could come up with. I can't say that I've tried it myself, but I imagine that you'd get some use out of it. Having said that, even when I run vindicators to draw fire from my Sons, my rhinos are still wrecks by the bottom of turn 2. At the end of the day, it's only 20-30 points and should probably not be make or break for your list so give it a bash and let us know how it goes.

 Drasius wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:Thousand Sons lists are worse than the most optimized list currently in the game. Same goes for all CSM, Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Daemons etc. We all know this, it is not actually news. What's the point you are trying to make? That if what is the best list in the game also specifically tailors against ours by adding anti-psyker assassins then it will win? Well that's shocking. Or do you expect Thousand Son lists to suddenly stop using psychers because Gladiuses have Culexii? I am trying to find the contribution in this but I fail to do so.

I think that he's trying to point out a very hard counter to almost any build we come up with that can easily slot into one of the most common tournament armies that's not eldar, one that isn't even included with the intent to counter us, just that it happens to shut us down so hard to the point where there's not much point even putting armies on the table unless your opponent has had a lobotomy. How do you counter it with a full war cabal? I have no idea. I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder. But that is definately not something to be relied upon, especially since if you don't kill him, you're next up on the chopping block since unless you've got another sorceror to feed him, you're getting challenged next at initiative more than you with instant death ap2 that hits on 3's. The 40 odd bolter shots that it takes to bring him down once he's out of a rhino that you're going to have a hard time popping is probably more than your whole army can manage in a turn. Again, this is a tactics thread, problems like this are something to be brought to the attention of all Sons players so they're not completely out in the cold when they face it for the first time.

Hellfyre Missle Racks are S 8 and unless my memory fails me culexus is T 4 without Eternal Warrior, prescience on a squad and shooting at him should down him in 3 or 4 turns half that for 2 squads, or if your really feeling froggy having 2 squads of SOT with Heavy Warp Flamers hit him at the same time should do the trick. Flamers seem to be the best option since they are fairly cheap and can still shoot at him because considered BS 1 is not snap shots.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:Thousand Sons lists are worse than the most optimized list currently in the game. Same goes for all CSM, Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Daemons etc. We all know this, it is not actually news. What's the point you are trying to make? That if what is the best list in the game also specifically tailors against ours by adding anti-psyker assassins then it will win? Well that's shocking. Or do you expect Thousand Son lists to suddenly stop using psychers because Gladiuses have Culexii? I am trying to find the contribution in this but I fail to do so.

I think that he's trying to point out a very hard counter to almost any build we come up with that can easily slot into one of the most common tournament armies that's not eldar, one that isn't even included with the intent to counter us, just that it happens to shut us down so hard to the point where there's not much point even putting armies on the table unless your opponent has had a lobotomy. How do you counter it with a full war cabal? I have no idea. I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder. But that is definately not something to be relied upon, especially since if you don't kill him, you're next up on the chopping block since unless you've got another sorceror to feed him, you're getting challenged next at initiative more than you with instant death ap2 that hits on 3's. The 40 odd bolter shots that it takes to bring him down once he's out of a rhino that you're going to have a hard time popping is probably more than your whole army can manage in a turn. Again, this is a tactics thread, problems like this are something to be brought to the attention of all Sons players so they're not completely out in the cold when they face it for the first time.

Hellfyre Missle Racks are S 8 and unless my memory fails me culexus is T 4 without Eternal Warrior, prescience on a squad and shooting at him should down him in 3 or 4 turns half that for 2 squads, or if your really feeling froggy having 2 squads of SOT with Heavy Warp Flamers hit him at the same time should do the trick. Flamers seem to be the best option since they are fairly cheap and can still shoot at him because considered BS 1 is not snap shots.

Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?

Like 8 or 9 pages back I got same defeated response: TS is not a top competitive army, we will lose to the best blah blah blah blah

The point I'm trying to make is CSM is no longer a tier4 crappy faction, with Traitors Hate you can actually make a mid tier2 list if you mix legions and bring the most optimize. War Cabal is garbage at 1850, rubrics and occults are a waste. I posted a list earlier several pages back that combines TS with cyclopia cabal and IW. I guarantee you that list will put up a decent fight against gladius, still a uphill fight none the less.

 Drasius wrote:
I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder.

Not going to work, remember the Culexus applies a -3 LD debuff to psykers within 12".

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Let say the assassin is 15" away, you move 6" close to within rapid fire, 9 shots after saves equates to .375W. Then on the assassins turn he proceeds to hit them with animus follow by psyk-out grenade. In CC, the assassin also swings first potentially killing somebody before rubrics swings back.

The psyk-out grenade is a blast weapon, it removes the charge bonus from the Aspiring Sorc but it cannot be fired in overwatch. The Animus Speculum cannot overwatch, ever. It's literally written on the weapon profile. Plodding 6" towards the Assassin is unnecessary, jump them. It will cost you a use of Astral Grimoire but shutting down a Culexus is important. You're not going to fail a 3" charge often.

I'd still expect the Rubrics to lose the majority of combats, but you are stating a lot of incorrect information. Try this -- what happens when you explode a Rhino with a Rubric Squad nearby, do you lose Blessing of Tzeentch and Oracular Guidance? Or will the Rubrics be fighting him for 2x CC phases on a 3++ with rr1s?

 whembly wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Perhaps I should have been clear about this, I'm not running a deck-out war cabal.

Don't have the terminators for it, just 1 set of prospero marines and a few random CSM units from before.

My questions was for generic 1ksons, not full cabal 1ksons.

There, you really can't play unless 2000 points methinks.

As mono-TS... you're probably right.

But, have you considered building a Lorestealer's Host+Archanistic Herald? Adding a demon detachment adds more WC and flexibility.

Actually has.

Building my own horrors out of ghosts. When I get to it...

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder.

Not going to work, remember the Culexus applies a -3 LD debuff to psykers within 12".

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Let say the assassin is 15" away, you move 6" close to within rapid fire, 9 shots after saves equates to .375W. Then on the assassins turn he proceeds to hit them with animus follow by psyk-out grenade. In CC, the assassin also swings first potentially killing somebody before rubrics swings back.

The psyk-out grenade is a blast weapon, it removes the charge bonus from the Aspiring Sorc but it cannot be fired in overwatch. The Animus Speculum cannot overwatch, ever. It's literally written on the weapon profile. Plodding 6" towards the Assassin is unnecessary, jump them. It will cost you a use of Astral Grimoire but shutting down a Culexus is important. You're not going to fail a 3" charge often.

I'd still expect the Rubrics to lose the majority of combats, but you are stating a lot of incorrect information. Try this -- what happens when you explode a Rhino with a Rubric Squad nearby, do you lose Blessing of Tzeentch and Oracular Guidance? Or will the Rubrics be fighting him for 2x CC phases on a 3++ with rr1s?

Your going to attach the Astral grim sorcerer to a squad of Rubrics, are you serious? Ok even if you did, your assuming you will jump over a bunch of rhinos and bodies of marines to be within decent charge range and with a clear lane? Then you assume you can blow up his rhino? With what? Heretech spells can't blow up vehicles, you only can rely on doom bolt and the one shot lascannon (thats IF you have LOS), so now let me ask you how many Hellfrye missiles you have in your 1850 War Cabal list? The odds for you to get the all right spells and then expect your opponent to position their units like a newbie is quite low...

So let say in the perfect scenario where that happens, your astral grim Rubrics jumps within 6" of the assassin inside a crater of his exploded rhino, how are you going to cast a blessing on that Rubric unit when your in his anti-psyker bubble?? You are going to charge him naked without Oracular guidance or the Blessing Tz, and in CC Culexus will always challenge. Sounds to me your pretty much sacrificing a 300-400pt unit in a bad attempt to kill a 140 pt model.