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2016/11/29 12:32:13
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
Beijing wants to give every citizen a score based on behavior such as spending habits, turnstile violations and filial piety, which can blacklist citizens from loans, jobs, air travel
HANGZHOU, China—Swiping her son’s half-fare student card through the turnstile here one Monday afternoon, Chen Li earned herself a $6 fine and a reprimand from a subway-station inspector for not paying the adult fare.
A notice on a post nearby suggested more-dire consequences. It warned that infractors could be docked points in the city’s “personal credit information system.” A decline in Ms. Chen’s credit score, according to official pronouncements, could affect her daily life, including securing loans, jobs and her son’s school admission.
“I’m sure if it comes up, I can explain,“ Ms. Chen said, saying she picked up the card accidentally. “It was unintentional.”
Hangzhou’s local government is piloting a “social credit” system the Communist Party has said it wants to roll out nationwide by 2020, a digital reboot of the methods of social control the regime uses to avert threats to its legitimacy.
More than three dozen local governments across China are beginning to compile digital records of social and financial behavior to rate creditworthiness. A person can incur black marks for infractions such as fare cheating, jaywalking and violating family-planning rules. The effort echoes the dang’an, a system of dossiers the Communist party keeps on urban workers’ behavior.
In time, Beijing expects to draw on bigger, combined data pools, including a person’s internet activity, according to interviews with some architects of the system and a review of government documents. Algorithms would use a range of data to calculate a citizen’s rating, which would then be used to determine all manner of activities, such as who gets loans, or faster treatment at government offices or access to luxury hotels.
The endeavor reinforces President Xi Jinping’s campaign to tighten his grip on the country and dictate morality at a time of economic uncertainty that threatens to undermine the party. Mr. Xi in October called for innovation in “social governance” that would “heighten the capacity to forecast and prevent all manner of risks.”
The national social-credit system’s aim, according to a slogan repeated in planning documents, is to “allow the trustworthy to roam everywhere under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step.”
Thus far, the pilot data-collecting systems aren’t yet tied together into what Beijing envisions as a sweeping system, which would assign each citizen a rating. It isn’t clear that Ms. Chen’s ticket infraction made it into any central system, although the notice warned that fare-dodgers risked being marked down starting Jan. 1; a station agent said only repeat offenders are reported.
Zan Aizong, a Hangzhou human-rights activist, sees the system, once it’s fully operational, as an Orwellian exercise to keep closer tabs on a populace already lacking basic liberties such as freedom of speech. “Tracking everyone that way,” Mr. Zan said, “it’s just like ‘1984.’ ”
Blacklisted
China’s judiciary has already created a blacklisting system that would tie into the national social-credit operation. Zhuang Daohe, a Hangzhou legal scholar, cites the example of a client, part-owner of a travel company, who now can’t buy tickets for planes or high-speed trains because a Hangzhou court put him on a blacklist after he lost a dispute with a landlord.
“This has had a huge impact on the business,” said the client’s wife. “He can’t travel with clients anymore.” Added Mr. Zhuang: “What happens when it punishes the wrong person?”
Hangzhou officials didn’t respond to inquiries.
Another government system blacklists badly behaved tourists.
Driving the social-credit system are the State Council—China’s cabinet—and the central national-planning agency. A blueprint the cabinet published in 2014 stated it aimed to “build sincerity” in economic, social and political activity. It stressed the need for fair and clean government and for punishing polluting factories and bribe-takers.
Blacklists will expose offenders and restrict them from certain activities, while well-behaved citizens will earn access to “green lanes” that provide faster government services, the blueprint said. Citizens in jobs deemed sensitive—lawyers, accountants, teachers, journalists—will be subject to enhanced scrutiny, it said.
The State Council and national-planning agency didn’t respond to requests for comment.
China’s government must overcome technological and bureaucratic obstacles to build a system that can monitor 1.4 billion people. Government departments often guard their information, undermining efforts to build a unified database, and their systems often aren’t compatible, said Meng Tianguang, a political scientist at Beijing’s Tsinghua University who advises the government on applying “big data” to governance issues but isn’t directly involved in the social-credit system.
“Whether we can actually pull this off, we’re in a state of uncertainty at the moment,” Mr. Meng said. “Either way, it’s better than the traditional era,” until recently, he said, “when we had no data and policy was based on the judgment of individuals.”
The Shanghai government on an official website has identified scores of violations that can incur credit penalties in its pilot system, including falling behind on bills and breaking traffic rules. State-media reports list penalties for not being filial to one’s parents. (Under Chinese law, parents over 60 may sue children for not visiting regularly or not ensuring they have enough food.)
Penalties for low scorers will include higher barriers to obtaining loans and bans on indulgences such as luxury hotels, according to state-media reports.
The Shanghai system appears to still be in an early phase. Residents can check their social-credit records, but records reviewed by The Wall Street Journal didn’t show any nonfinancial data. Shanghai city officials didn’t respond to inquiries.
Despite official-media warnings and propaganda promoting sincerity, dozens of people interviewed in Shanghai weren’t aware of the social-credit plan. Many agreed more should be done to enforce higher moral standards, bemoaning habits such as spitting, cutting in line and being cold to strangers in need.
Research by Yang Wang, a Syracuse University expert on internet behavior, has shown Chinese internet users, accustomed to the idea of government snooping, are less concerned with online privacy than Americans. The most common word for privacy, yinsi, didn’t appear in popular Chinese dictionaries until the mid-1990s, he notes.
Behavior reports
In the tree-lined Yangjing neighborhood, subdistrict authorities maintain a database that gives a hint as to what elements of a broader social-credit system might look like. The database collects reports on locals’ behavior from residential committees, said Yuan Jianming, the head of the Yangjing Sincerity Construction Office.
Since mid-2015, the office has published a monthly “red list” of exemplary residents. Zhu Shengjun, 28, a high-school teacher, was named on a September red list. He said he didn’t know why. While he supported efforts to encourage better behavior, he hesitated at the idea of linking that with financial consequences, saying “it seems like too much of a stretch.”
The office also maintains a “gray list” of people behaving badly—throwing garbage out of windows, say—but the office hasn’t decided whether to publicize it, Mr. Yuan said.
In an area with a population of roughly 170,000, only around 120 have made Yangjing’s red list. Officials there complained to Chinese media this year that limited data sharing between departments was hampering efforts to rate people.
Businesses, too, get surveillance in pilot cities, where anyone can look up records on registered companies, though the records are sometimes incomplete. One objective: turning around what leaders see as a crippling lack of trust among citizens from decades of corruption and bare-knuckle competition.
So the social-credit system aims not just to collect data on individuals for official use, it seeks data on the behavior of businesses to analyze and show the results to consumers.
One example is food safety, a major issue since anger erupted over melamine-tainted milk powder that killed six infants in 2008. Subsequent scandals, including the sale of waste oil scooped up from gutters for reuse in restaurants, have continued to fuel mistrust.
Yangjing officials offer a solution: touch-screen displays they installed this summer in some restaurants. The screens, part of a local social-credit pilot system, offer an unusual level of transparency for China. Lit up with slogans—“Join heart to hand, be a model of sincerity” reads one—they display information about where ingredients came from and when waste oil was last picked up. Customers can watch videos on a mobile app showing chefs working, and the system displays the eatery’s health-department rating.
One recent Monday at Jujube Tree, a vegetarian restaurant, the food-safety console was partially obscured by poster board. Manager Wang Dacheng said it was because the system had erroneously downgraded the restaurant’s health rating, and local officials couldn’t fix it. “We have a lot of return customers. What if they come in and see that?” Mr. Wang said. He said he supported the system but was wary of its being applied without better controls.
Yangjing officials didn't respond to inquiries.
For initial social-credit efforts, local officials are relying on information collected by government departments, such as court records and loan and tax data. More-extensive logging of everyday habits, such as social-media use and online shopping, lies with China’s internet companies, including e-commerce giant Alibaba Group Holding Ltd.
A credit-scoring service by Alibaba affiliate Ant Financial Services—one of eight companies approved to pilot commercial experiments with social-credit scoring—assigns ratings based on information such as when customers shop online, what they buy and what phone they use. If users opt in, the score can also consider education levels and legal records. Perks in the past for getting high marks have included express security screening at the Beijing airport, part of an Ant agreement with the airport.
“Especially for young people, your online behavior goes towards building up your online credit profile,” said Joe Tsai, Alibaba’s executive vice chairman, “and we want people to be aware of that so they know to behave themselves better.”
Alibaba shares aggregate data about online sales with China’s statistics bureau but doesn’t divulge personal data unless required to by law, for example in criminal investigations, Mr. Tsai said.
In the U.S., private concerns such as credit-reporting agencies and ride-sharing services compile certain ratings based on consumer data or reviews.
The local-government trials aren’t known to be tapping private-sector data, although the social-credit system blueprint designates internet data as a “strategic national resource” and calls for internet companies to contribute data, without getting into specifics.
Whether private and public data systems will be combined is still being hammered out, said Zhu Wei, a China University of Politics and Law scholar who has advised the government on social-credit efforts.
In an October speech screened to 1.5 million officials, Alibaba Chairman Jack Ma urged law-enforcement agencies to use internet data as a tool to identify criminals, according to posts on a Communist Party social-media feed. He didn’t mention sharing Alibaba’s user data. His comments raised eyebrows for broaching the notion that internet companies might share data with government agencies. Alibaba declined to make Mr. Ma available for comment. “We believe the application of machine learning and data analytics for the purpose of crime prevention is consistent with our core values: solving society’s problems,” the company said
In an interview Nov. 1 with state media, a deputy head of China’s central-planning agency, Lian Weiliang, noted that much of the government’s credit-related data were stuck on “isolated islands” and said a central data platform had been established to encourage information sharing. He said the platform had collected 640 million pieces of credit information from 37 central-government departments and various local governments.
The agency said the government has stopped untrustworthy people, identified by the court system, from buying airline tickets 4.9 million times.
Some advisers to the government, such as Mr. Zhu and Mr. Meng, said they were skeptical the system would meet the 2020 deadline because of the immense task of integrating data and keeping information secure.
In Hangzhou, where Ms. Chen used her son’s pass, residents can check their social-credit records at a government-services center. Records the Journal viewed showed only whether people had kept up with health-insurance and social-security payments—a far cry from the central government’s goals.
But possibly the worst of all was a firm called Tap My Back—Build Stronger Teams. “Boost workplace motivation with a simple employee-recognition software,” it announces. “It’s like saying ‘thank you’ but with badges and on a public feed.” Finally, something to relieve executives of the burden of having to personally thank their workers; finally, a way to discipline your workforce through a quantifiable and patronizing system of shame and reward; finally, the kindergarten gold-star method has been digitized and is ready to conquer the world.
.. hmm ..
TBh I'd much rather have the rocketpacks, atomic robots and moonbases.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2016/11/29 12:44:44
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
As long as they keep that crap far away from the west.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/29 15:43:33
Poor ignorant guardsmen, it be but one of many of the great miracles of the Emperor! The Emperor is magic, like Harry Potter, but more magic! A most real and true SPACE WIZARD! And for the last time... I'm not a space plumber.
As long as they keep that crap far away from the west.
To call China "communist" at this point about as factual as calling North Korea communist (as opposed to the divine right absolute monarchy it has become)
This is an extension of the kind of thing Chinese governmenta of all types have done for hundreds of years.
That said, if you dont think we have equivlaents here already, you're living under a rock, we just dont have it unified into a single system, but between one's social media, profession, and financial credit ratings, equivalent data is kept and referenced even in the west
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/29 15:51:08
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/11/29 15:53:14
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
If one can't create an objective, scientific measurement for every possible aspect of existence so that governments can exert more control is it really worth living?
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2016/11/29 16:27:26
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
You know I loath when people repeat bs propaganda claims on the internet, but I don't think I want the government deciding what is and isn't bs and then calculating it into a bs rating that will be used to decide if someone needs some food stamps.
It's a pretty Orwellian system (and I don't use that word lightly). It's insidiousness it two-fold, first your score is partially based on those you communicate with online, making it so that all people will have a certain degree of social pressure at them. People who want a really high score will simply stop interacting with dissidents. Second, although there are no(?) penalties for having a low score at this time, only benefits for having a high one, they will surely roll them out once the system is fully integrated.
It really is depressing what goes on in China. I know I rag on about Russia and it's government (mostly because Putin is a dill weed), but they are leagues better than China. There is still a lot of Propaganda and BS, but they aren't pulling gak to this level (and there is no Great Firewall or anything, AFAIK).
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2016/11/30 07:18:02
Subject: Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
I know the intrusiveness of the scheme is the real issue, but what amazes me is the pettiness of it all. Worrying about a fine for swiping the wrong card, it stuns me that somewhere there are people that give a gak about that kind of nonsense.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2016/11/30 07:24:34
Subject: Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
sebster wrote: Worrying about a fine for swiping the wrong card, it stuns me that somewhere there are people that give a gak about that kind of nonsense.
To be fair, it isn't just a case of "oops, grabbed the wrong card" that's the issue, it's people deliberately cheating to get cheaper fares. If you're going to have a policy of "it doesn't matter, cheat all you want" why have different fares in the first place? Just charge everyone the same price, whatever the cheapest fare used to be.
The real issue is not that clearly and quantifiably dishonest/illegal actions have consequences, it's that a large part of the score is subjective things like "shopping habits" and "filial piety". I mean, this seems to be a system where what interest rate you pay on a loan is set in part by what some random stranger thinks about how respectful you are towards your parents. And it should be rather terrifying to think about how the state would collect that information in the first place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/30 07:30:00
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/11/30 08:25:02
Subject: Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
Peregrine wrote: To be fair, it isn't just a case of "oops, grabbed the wrong card" that's the issue, it's people deliberately cheating to get cheaper fares. If you're going to have a policy of "it doesn't matter, cheat all you want" why have different fares in the first place? Just charge everyone the same price, whatever the cheapest fare used to be.
Yeah, I get that swiping the wrong card was deliberate to pay a lower fee, I remain amazed that trying to get a reduced fare is something a government wants to mark against a citizen. It is incredibly petty. Imagine being the guy who's job it was to take the government records of everyone who got caught spitting on the street, and entering that in to each person's record. How long could you do sit there processing that pointless nonsense before you thought 'feth it, don't care, calling in sick'. Which of course would require some other bureaucrat to have to enter a negative score against your record.
The real issue is not that clearly and quantifiably dishonest/illegal actions have consequences, it's that a large part of the score is subjective things like "shopping habits" and "filial piety".
Sure, and again its the pettiness of it that gets me. One party states will punish dissidents. This is sad but it is also sadly unremarkable.
What amazes me about this new policy is the small minded nature of it. You will be pinged not just for showing dissent, but just for talking with someone who showed dissent, or talking to someone who talked to someone who showed dissent.
It reminds me of East Germany most of all, the effort the stasi put in to building files on people who accidentally interrupted a government minister one time, or who were friends with someone who interupted a government minister one time. I read through all that and all I could think of at the end was who could be bothered putting that much work in to other people? Is your dictatorship really worth so much goddamn paperwork?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/30 08:30:13
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2016/11/30 14:49:39
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
LordofHats wrote: You know I loath when people repeat bs propaganda claims on the internet, but I don't think I want the government deciding what is and isn't bs and then calculating it into a bs rating that will be used to decide if someone needs some food stamps.
No thanks.
Yep. "Oh, you didn't click like on that women's photo? No food stamps for you this month."
In most countries, the existence of a credit system isn't controversial. Past financial information is used to predict whether individuals will pay their mortgages or credit card bill in the future.
But China is taking the whole concept a few steps further. The Chinese government is building an omnipotent "social credit" system that is meant to rate each citizen's trustworthiness.
By 2020, everyone in China will be enrolled in a vast national database that compiles fiscal and government information, including minor traffic violations, and distils it into a single number ranking each citizen.
That system isn't in place yet. For now, the government is watching how eight Chinese companies issue their own "social credit" scores under state-approved pilot projects.
One of the most high-profile projects is by Sesame Credit, the financial wing of Alibaba. With 400 million users, Alibaba is the world's biggest online shopping platform. It's using its unique database of consumer information to compile individual "social credit" scores.
Users are encouraged to flaunt their good credit scores to friends, and even potential mates. China's biggest matchmaking service, Baihe, has teamed up with Sesame to promote clients with good credit scores, giving them prominent spots on the company's website.
"A person's appearance is very important," explains Baihe's vice-president, Zhuan Yirong. "But it's more important to be able make a living. Your partner's fortune guarantees a comfortable life."
More at link.
2016/12/01 01:30:03
Subject: Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
What amazes me about this new policy is the small minded nature of it. You will be pinged not just for showing dissent, but just for talking with someone who showed dissent, or talking to someone who talked to someone who showed dissent.
There's that, but what amazes me is the lack of aforethought. How valid is you social credit system, when a single well-concealed botnet can put anyone on any blacklist!
This is going to be a hacker's wet dream come true.
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2016/12/01 01:34:56
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
LordofHats wrote: You know I loath when people repeat bs propaganda claims on the internet, but I don't think I want the government deciding what is and isn't bs and then calculating it into a bs rating that will be used to decide if someone needs some food stamps.
No thanks.
Yep. "Oh, you didn't click like on that women's photo? No food stamps for you this month."
The friendly office game "bang, pass, kill" just because super serious business
That said, if you dont think we have equivlaents here already, you're living under a rock, we just dont have it unified into a single system, but between one's social media, profession, and financial credit ratings, equivalent data is kept and referenced even in the west
This, I cant tell you how scared I am that there exists some lies about me on the corner of the internet that might exist, and an emplyer might see it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/01 07:37:10
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2016/12/01 08:00:52
Subject: Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
Kovnik Obama wrote: There's that, but what amazes me is the lack of aforethought. How valid is you social credit system, when a single well-concealed botnet can put anyone on any blacklist!
This is going to be a hacker's wet dream come true.
Fair point. Beyond hacking though there will be so many instances of names being mixed, penalties being falsely applied, and then not being erased for years after the error was shown to and accepted by the authorities. Think of the nightmare the US has with the no fly list or the sex offenders list, and then involve in a country with far less scope to complain about poor treatment, a much more difficult bureaucracy, and a scheme that plans to record information for millions, and eventually more than a billion.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2016/12/01 14:26:06
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
That said, if you dont think we have equivlaents here already, you're living under a rock, we just dont have it unified into a single system, but between one's social media, profession, and financial credit ratings, equivalent data is kept and referenced even in the west
This man speaks the truth!
In most of my executive jobs, there is no way in the world i could even mention something positive about Unions without being on a blacklist. In my community, if you are accused of being a liberal/Democrat there goes at least half of your business.
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2016/12/01 18:02:21
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
I'm all for holding people accountable. It may be petty of the government to track and penalize a person cheating a faire or spitting on the road but if the penalties are really that bad then just don't do it. But this system isn't really going to do that, nor is it really about doing that.
As a side note: 'I just used my son's card by accident!' yeah BS.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm all for holding people accountable. It may be petty of the government to track and penalize a person cheating a faire or spitting on the road but if the penalties are really that bad then just don't do it.
So you reject the idea of proportionate penalties as part of justice?
And you aren't bothered at all by the vast scale of a system that would need to track ever offence, minor or otherwise, for every person in society? You don't think that such a system would produce many technical and personal problems, all for a goal that is at its core unbelievably petty?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/02 04:56:40
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2016/12/02 11:07:59
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
The Chinese are making a workable system, we don't like it because it offends our western values, which are themselves hypocritical.
the 21st century is going to get tough, we are living in a false golden age that wont last, China is getting ready.
Also all the restrictions you see in the diagram in the IP are available through some means or other to use on our own citizens, its less organised though, more random and can even be more heavy handed as social examples are made.
I would not call the Chinese system Orwellian, it certainly includes a high level of party control, and a perpetuation of said control, but it wants a prosperous one party state not a dystopia. the Chinese giovernment is saying, we need a one party system, but in a post-Marxist milieu which allows individual enterprise and achievement for its own merit. Dont buck the system and the system wont buck back.
In the west the students are the one throwing bricks or raising placards, yet those students (mostly) want a get qualified in higher education and establishment jobs, its just a rebellion phase that is common in man.
The other integral malcontent group are the underclass, there will always be an underclass, but whatever underclass there is is better off under a socialist system.
Beyond that there are minorities who will be discontent due to religious or ethnic differences. Tibetans etc, its ugly but workable to the extent hardly anyone now cares about a free Tibet anymore or lists the country as occupied in international maps.
China pays fro this all be being expansionistic, a colonial power in the local oceans and with indirect colonialism in Africa. They are in a far better position to sit out the resources shortages that are coming than any western government. Their position is long term and are not afraid to make hard choices to have long term prosperity.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2016/12/02 11:23:03
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
Orlanth wrote: The Chinese are making a workable system, we don't like it because it offends our western values, which are themselves hypocritical.
Erm, no, values are never hypocritical, only the people's application of said values.
I would not call the Chinese system Orwellian, it certainly includes a high level of party control, and a perpetuation of said control, but it wants a prosperous one party state not a dystopia. the Chinese giovernment is saying, we need a one party system, but in a post-Marxist milieu which allows individual enterprise and achievement for its own merit. Dont buck the system and the system wont buck back.
An Orwellian State is not one because it titulates as such but because it fits the criteria. A central and undemocratic regime unhindered by an independent judicial system with an arbitrary control of peoples' everyday life actions and their individual well-being. Ask any Orwellian state agent and they will say they do it for the benfit of all.
The rest of your blurb is just general rant/opinion on such a general level that no one can disagree. Of course the Chinese are very active in Africa for the ressources and markets. Where is the connection to this control program? Other than that both programs derive from a central regime (which is a fallacy).
Currently playing: Infinity, SW Legion
2016/12/02 14:48:17
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
Orlanth wrote: The Chinese are making a workable system, we don't like it because it offends our western values, which are themselves hypocritical.
the 21st century is going to get tough, we are living in a false golden age that wont last, China is getting ready.
Also all the restrictions you see in the diagram in the IP are available through some means or other to use on our own citizens, its less organised though, more random and can even be more heavy handed as social examples are made.
I would not call the Chinese system Orwellian, it certainly includes a high level of party control, and a perpetuation of said control, but it wants a prosperous one party state not a dystopia. the Chinese giovernment is saying, we need a one party system, but in a post-Marxist milieu which allows individual enterprise and achievement for its own merit. Dont buck the system and the system wont buck back.
In the west the students are the one throwing bricks or raising placards, yet those students (mostly) want a get qualified in higher education and establishment jobs, its just a rebellion phase that is common in man.
The other integral malcontent group are the underclass, there will always be an underclass, but whatever underclass there is is better off under a socialist system.
Beyond that there are minorities who will be discontent due to religious or ethnic differences. Tibetans etc, its ugly but workable to the extent hardly anyone now cares about a free Tibet anymore or lists the country as occupied in international maps.
China pays fro this all be being expansionistic, a colonial power in the local oceans and with indirect colonialism in Africa. They are in a far better position to sit out the resources shortages that are coming than any western government. Their position is long term and are not afraid to make hard choices to have long term prosperity.
Man, sounds like you're already half way there to serving the great emperor. When does your Chinese citizenship application go through?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm all for holding people accountable. It may be petty of the government to track and penalize a person cheating a faire or spitting on the road but if the penalties are really that bad then just don't do it.
So you reject the idea of proportionate penalties as part of justice?
And you aren't bothered at all by the vast scale of a system that would need to track ever offence, minor or otherwise, for every person in society? You don't think that such a system would produce many technical and personal problems, all for a goal that is at its core unbelievably petty?
I think my statement is being taken a little out of context here; my very next sentence stated how this system isn't actually doing that. Basically, the principle of holding people accountable for their actions is all well and good but the idea of a vast government system to do so is not. I don't feel it's petty to hold a person accountable for cheating the faire, but I don't feel that the government should be the one who does that.
LordofHats wrote: You've had some crazy opinions in the past, but wow...
Thank you for your 'intelligent' and 'informed' addition to the debate.
Like it or not China is ready for the 21st century, which looks like it will be more brutal than the 20th due to an ever shrinking world resource pool and growing global population.
They know what they are doing.
I would not call the Chinese system Orwellian, it certainly includes a high level of party control, and a perpetuation of said control, but it wants a prosperous one party state not a dystopia. the Chinese government is saying, we need a one party system, but in a post-Marxist milieu which allows individual enterprise and achievement for its own merit. Dont buck the system and the system wont buck back.
An Orwellian State is not one because it titulates as such but because it fits the criteria. A central and undemocratic regime unhindered by an independent judicial system with an arbitrary control of peoples' everyday life actions and their individual well-being. Ask any Orwellian state agent and they will say they do it for the benefit of all.
No. an Orwellian state is a specific type of dystopia, it relies upon a value system providing the opposite to what it purportedly offers, and it clearly doesn't offer benefit for all, even from the point of view of the state's agents.
China isnt looking to generate internal enemies, but deals with the ones it has, and the internal shaping of society is to create 'harmony' not division.
Also the Orwellian state doesn't allow for private enterprise of any kind, only the Party can hold wealth. China allows its citizens to make wealth for themselves, albeit upon the backs of an underpaid mas labour market, which places a hard limit on the number of achievers in this fashion.
China also doesn't remove self expression, it instead penalises self expression that is considered detrimental to the state. This is very different from an Orwellian system where the state is the sole permissible font of inspiration, and ultimately though no historical state got this far - the sole avenue for expression.
The rest of your blurb is just general rant/opinion on such a general level that no one can disagree. Of course the Chinese are very active in Africa for the ressources and markets. Where is the connection to this control program? Other than that both programs derive from a central regime (which is a fallacy).
I dont rant. I think and post. Know the difference.
The connection between Africa (and other expansionistic moves) and the control program is twofold.
- First any colonial regime must have an internal justification for its actions. Forming an internal social harmony is essential to such. The European powers achieved this, as did America.
- Second hegemonic rule and lasting internal security requires a steady flow of resources, most of the worlds resources are already allocated, there are a few holding lying dormant, Antarctica for one. Africa moved from European colonial control to global capitalist neo-colonialism. Africa was never given more than an illusion of freedom inbetween. China and India are the new power players trying to control Africa more directly, with China having the far stronger hand.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/03 09:57:39
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2016/12/03 09:58:06
Subject: China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything
LordofHats wrote: You've had some crazy opinions in the past, but wow...
Thank you for your 'intelligent' and 'informed' addition to the debate.
Like it or not China is ready for the 21st century, which looks like it will be more brutal than the 20th due to an ever shrinking world resource pool and growing global population.
They know what they are doing.
I would not call the Chinese system Orwellian, it certainly includes a high level of party control, and a perpetuation of said control, but it wants a prosperous one party state not a dystopia. the Chinese government is saying, we need a one party system, but in a post-Marxist milieu which allows individual enterprise and achievement for its own merit. Dont buck the system and the system wont buck back.
An Orwellian State is not one because it titulates as such but because it fits the criteria. A central and undemocratic regime unhindered by an independent judicial system with an arbitrary control of peoples' everyday life actions and their individual well-being. Ask any Orwellian state agent and they will say they do it for the benefit of all.
No. an Orwellian state is a specific type of dystopia, it relies upon a value system providing the opposite to what it purportedly offers, and it clearly doesn't offer benefit for all, even from the point of view of the state's agents.
China isnt looking to generate internal enemies, but deals with the ones it has, and the internal shaping of society is to create 'harmony' not division.
Also the Orwellian state doesn't allow for private enterprise of any kind, only the Party can hold wealth. China allows its citizens to make wealth for themselves, albeit upon the backs of an underpaid mas labour market, which places a hard limit on the number of achievers in this fashion.
China also doesn't remove self expression, it instead penalises self expression that is considered detrimental to the state. This is very different from an Orwellian system where the state is the sole permissible font of inspiration, and ultimately though no historical state got this far - the sole avenue for expression.
The rest of your blurb is just general rant/opinion on such a general level that no one can disagree. Of course the Chinese are very active in Africa for the ressources and markets. Where is the connection to this control program? Other than that both programs derive from a central regime (which is a fallacy).
This reads as rather hypocritical to me, and lacking in coherency enough that I'm finding it hard to fault LordofHats' post.
NinthMusketeer wrote: This reads as rather hypocritical to me, and lacking in coherency enough that I'm finding it hard to fault LordofHats' post.
I don't know what you're talking about.
I mean seriously We marveled when the Fonz jumped one shark!
Thank you for your 'intelligent' and 'informed' addition to the debate.
After years of basically calling anything with the tappings of 1984 Orwellian whether the undercarriage worked or not, he finally comes face to face with a truly Orwellian system and declares it isn't Orwellian. Then posts a sycophantic rant, and expects someone to take that turd and respond intelligently. When someone is so far out the ballpark even I'm not interested in giving it a little effort, it takes real balls and fabulous hair to write that on a bill board! It was a feat thought impossible, but it's happened! He's jumped two sharks. It's so unprecedented there are no images on the internet to link.
Truly we live in wondrous times!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/03 12:34:40
Orlanth wrote: The Chinese are making a workable system, we don't like it because it offends our western values, which are themselves hypocritical.
the 21st century is going to get tough, we are living in a false golden age that wont last, China is getting ready.
Also all the restrictions you see in the diagram in the IP are available through some means or other to use on our own citizens, its less organised though, more random and can even be more heavy handed as social examples are made.
I would not call the Chinese system Orwellian, it certainly includes a high level of party control, and a perpetuation of said control, but it wants a prosperous one party state not a dystopia. the Chinese giovernment is saying, we need a one party system, but in a post-Marxist milieu which allows individual enterprise and achievement for its own merit. Dont buck the system and the system wont buck back.
In the west the students are the one throwing bricks or raising placards, yet those students (mostly) want a get qualified in higher education and establishment jobs, its just a rebellion phase that is common in man.
The other integral malcontent group are the underclass, there will always be an underclass, but whatever underclass there is is better off under a socialist system.
Beyond that there are minorities who will be discontent due to religious or ethnic differences. Tibetans etc, its ugly but workable to the extent hardly anyone now cares about a free Tibet anymore or lists the country as occupied in international maps.
China pays fro this all be being expansionistic, a colonial power in the local oceans and with indirect colonialism in Africa. They are in a far better position to sit out the resources shortages that are coming than any western government. Their position is long term and are not afraid to make hard choices to have long term prosperity.
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