CSM Traitor Legions Tactica

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Red Corsair**

Muzsikus wrote:
I just played a game (1850) vs Tau + BA with the new DG Vectorium (ye, because neither do i see any reason to take the colony, sadly)
My list was (everything MoN and VotLW)
Warband
-Typhus (i know hes not cost effective, but hes my favourite, besides i handsculpted him, so hes going nowhere until mortarion arrives)
-5 Chosen with 4 plasmas and PF
-2x 5 CSM with plasma/melta and PF + Rhinos with Dirges (never did get close enough vs Tau to do anything, but i just cant resist the chance of once being useful)
-2x3 Bikes with 2x meltas and Powersword
- 5 havocs with 4 AC
Terminator Annihilator Force
-5x Termies with reaper, combiplasmas/melta, power axes and one PF
-3x Termies with LCs (i know, garbage, need to retool these)
-3x termies with 2xCF, combiplasma/melta/flamer, power axe
- Sorci lv3, termiarmour, combisomething, force axe, blight grenades, spell familiar

i wanted to roll some teleporting shenanigans on sinistrum, i ended up with reroll saves (was great vs missiles) and adamantium will/fearless (useless) plus regain wounds on nurgle. typhus had regain wounds and debuff D3

He had a Tau CAD with buffmander, darkstrider with shotgun guys in DF, kroot snipers, missilesides, and a hammerhead plus the new BA 3x5 Termi DS-assault thing with TH+SHs

The game was 3 secret TOs at hammer/anvil. It didnt go bad, i just didnt have luck with my TOs (at least not as much as him), so i ended up losing, but my army actually performed well in my eyes, i just made some mistakes (need to think through what unit to hate with termies to maximize the DS-shooting, etc..). I expected the guys to be a pain in the ass to kill, and that they were by all means, i just need to figure out, how to optimise the offensive punch. I had the feeling, if i just had to sit on objectives, i wouldve won easily, but to hop around for TOs, DG is a bit slow, characteristically.

neither of us are power gamers, so even if i saw a top dog tau list i wouldnt know it, the same with him, but he is my primary gaming opponent, so he knows what to expect from my army, hence the T-ignoring kroot, and the T reducing darkstrider. Still its a casual game, so i'm not primarily interested in what ways our lists suck balls in a tournament environment, but rather how to optimize it while retaining its main shape in your opinion?

edit: do i read it right, that chosen actually could have had 5 plasma guns?

Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe darkstryder can only join pathfinders, which is why y9ou don't see him ever lol.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
trindaros wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Raptor Talon loadout is atrocious. Lose MoS on the Warp Talons and then lose the Warp Talons for more Melta Raptors. Put the Sigil on the Lord and then maybe use remaining points to put in more Raptors into the existing squads.

I actually took the warp talons, because they don't scatter when they DS within 12 inch form the DP if he gets Cursed earth up, it's not there for the +1 invul save. I took MoS as More often than not, I'd face marines.

That's relying to much on a Power for a unit that's still outperformed by Raptors. You need the anti tank anyway. Run into more than one Imperial Knight and you've got nothing outside of Maulerfiends, who aren't going to do well in that fight.

Bull crap, I know a guy who regularly fields 3 mauler fiends with lasher tendrils SPECIFICALLY for hunting knights and it works consistently. They nerf the knight down to 1 attack and he can't target them all, you can get 3 easy for the price of the knight. If they have multiple knights then they are sinking alot of their army into them and I almost guarantee you they are taking a crusader, whos guns actually suck against AV12. I consistently see those gatling canons doing a single HP or nothing to armored targets.

**zedsdead**

Iron Warriors and The Purge Detachment from Vraks seems like a doable option ?

1hq and 2 elites mandatory and up to 8 Troop slots. Leaves lots of room for oblits. and the addition of barrage which IW can take advantage of . Also can add in a Traitor Knight or even the Brass Scorpion for Stupid.

Havent looked into it a lot but could this be the way to go with IWs ?

**Captyn_Bob**

IW already get oblits as troops, so do you even need the purge? Is it worth losing objective secured? Not sure how you are getting barrage. Renegade allies are cool, but they can't be iron warriors.

**Roknar**

Would it be worth considering a Black Crusade detachment with world eaters? I know it's a shot in the dark, but if you get Slaughterborn (+1A instead of a boon) on a warband lord, you're getting +2 attack base per turn,3 on the first due to gift of mutation. By turn 2 the lord would have 8 attacks base oO

**Captyn_Bob**

Roknar wrote:
Would it be worth considering a Black Crusade detachment with world eaters? I know it's a shot in the dark, but if you get Slaughterborn (+1A instead of a boon) on a warband lord, you're getting +2 attack base per turn,3 on the first due to gift of mutation. By turn 2 the lord would have 8 attacks base oO

I was thinking that. I just don't think it's as good as the bonus movement from the WE detachment tho. Is hilarious how many attacks you could get.

**Roknar**

Also, considering an army based on the dimensional key, could a Kharydbis work? You could cover a rather sizable area with S6 AP5 ignore cover hits and also 10 S6 AP5 pinning shots.

**Red Corsair**

Roknar wrote:
Also, considering an army based on the dimensional key, could a Kharydbis work? You could cover a rather sizable area with S6 AP5 ignore cover hits and also 10 S6 AP5 pinning shots.

How much is the kharybdis?

**Captyn_Bob**

The kharybdis already has intertial guidance, so scatter isn't a particularly big issue.
Shame it can't get into a black legion detachment.

A one two punch with a fist of khorne still sounds fun.

**Red Corsair**

Roknar wrote:
Would it be worth considering a Black Crusade detachment with world eaters? I know it's a shot in the dark, but if you get Slaughterborn (+1A instead of a boon) on a warband lord, you're getting +2 attack base per turn,3 on the first due to gift of mutation. By turn 2 the lord would have 8 attacks base oO

It's funny for sure but it' gets to a point where it is entirely unnecessary tactically. I mean, we can all assume when the WE get into combat they will mulch what they hit. What they need more is delivery and durability.

**Captyn_Bob**

Red Corsair wrote:
Roknar wrote:
Also, considering an army based on the dimensional key, could a Kharydbis work? You could cover a rather sizable area with S6 AP5 ignore cover hits and also 10 S6 AP5 pinning shots.

How much is the kharybdis?

260pts

**Roknar**

Red Corsair wrote:
Roknar wrote:
Also, considering an army based on the dimensional key, could a Kharydbis work? You could cover a rather sizable area with S6 AP5 ignore cover hits and also 10 S6 AP5 pinning shots.

How much is the kharybdis?

It's a whopping 260 points, but I keep looking for excuses to bring one since I love the model lol.
It has inertial guidance, but that's fine for protecting vs mishaps, not so much to maximize damage.
The Kharybdis is huge, so with a 3+d3 aoe around it you could hit quite a lot. The first time I proxied it to test it wiped out a whole pathfinder unit on arrival.
I'm wondering what this would do to a tau gunline without scatter. It also happens in the movement phase so there's not much they could do about it.

**Red Corsair**

NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

**saruon**

Am I forced to take the Plague Colony to get the benefits from Death Guard Vectorium or can I pick any other Core detachment?

**Matt.Kingsley**

You can take a Chaos Warband instead of the Colony

**Slayer-Fan123**

Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

**Amanax**

So, does anyone know if you can stack the Black Legion supplement and this new book for the purpose of relics?

Really kind of want to run a Nurgle biker lord with a 2+/4+ FnP but not sure if I have a way to give him the 2+ armor

**Roknar**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

Like I said, I still haven't been able to convince myself that it's worth bringing.
Still, with no scatter it can do something to like up to 8 different units at the same time.

Spoiler:

It's almost as large as monolith, with an average 5 inch aoe around it's hull. Obviously won't work against every army or game, but that alone can easily hit 2-3 different units. And there's no limit on the hits, it hits every model in that radius.
And then you have 5 2-shot pinning guns that can each fire at a different unit. And since you would be able to place it where you want, you should be able to generate quite a few hits.

And should it survive it can fly over units next turn and burn them and still fire it's guns. And well, it can ram, which can now be used to instant kill a storm surge if nothing else lol.

**Latro_**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

drop that bad boy on top of your own horrors and let split party commence

**Slayer-Fan123**

Roknar wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

Like I said, I still haven't been able to convince myself that it's worth bringing.
Still, with no scatter it can do something to like up to 8 different units at the same time.

Spoiler:

It's almost as large as monolith, with an average 5 inch aoe around it's hull. Obviously won't work against every army or game, but that alone can easily hit 2-3 different units. And there's no limit on the hits, it hits every model in that radius.
And then you have 5 2-shot pinning guns that can each fire at a different unit. And since you would be able to place it where you want, you should be able to generate quite a few hits.

And should it survive it can fly over units next turn and burn them and still fire it's guns. And well, it can ram, which can now be used to instant kill a storm surge if nothing else lol.

feth that's great stuff you got there.

Seeing as Chosen are troops and can take one as a Dedicated Transport it would be OS, which is cool.

Or was that the crap claw that was dedicated?

**saruon**

Can I get the Death Guard special rules on with the Purge Detachment and can I use Terminator Annihilation Force, Mayhem Pack, Daemon Engine Pack, Helforged Warpack combined with The Purge Detachment?

New at 40k and Detachments/Formations is still confusing.

**Roknar**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Roknar wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
NM found it, 260 pts for a drop pod, yikes. A bit steep for essentially a 5 HP drop pod.

It has 10 S6 pinning shots and can continuously move. It is still awfully expensive but at least it is doing some thing I guess...

Like I said, I still haven't been able to convince myself that it's worth bringing.
Still, with no scatter it can do something to like up to 8 different units at the same time.

Spoiler:

It's almost as large as monolith, with an average 5 inch aoe around it's hull. Obviously won't work against every army or game, but that alone can easily hit 2-3 different units. And there's no limit on the hits, it hits every model in that radius.
And then you have 5 2-shot pinning guns that can each fire at a different unit. And since you would be able to place it where you want, you should be able to generate quite a few hits.

And should it survive it can fly over units next turn and burn them and still fire it's guns. And well, it can ram, which can now be used to instant kill a storm surge if nothing else lol.

feth that's great stuff you got there.

Seeing as Chosen are troops and can take one as a Dedicated Transport it would be OS, which is cool.

Or was that the crap claw that was dedicated?

Sadly, they only get the smaller claw. So no objective secured for the kharybdis.
Plus in order to benefit from the key, you would need 1 dreadclaw so that can come in turn 1 and this stays in reserve. Although that claw would be obsec at least.

**edit**
Actually, hold on a sec. That aoe S6 flamer attack hits vehicles on their weakest side. That means glancing rhinos, razorbacks, vindicators, most walkers on a 4+, with ignore cover.
It might actually be rather good vs extreme msu style armies , like a gladius.

Now if we could convince Forge World to make it a dedicated transport for terminators, then it could also have ObSec. That would do it for me and I could finally cave and get one.
I think I'm gonna send them a mail XD

Not to mention that would allow night lords to confer stealth to it via nightfighting for a 2+ jink first turn.

**Gordon Shumway**

saruon wrote:
Can I get the Death Guard special rules on with the Purge Detachment and can I use Terminator Annihilation Force, Mayhem Pack, Daemon Engine Pack, Helforged Warpack combined with The Purge Detachment?

New at 40k and Detachments/Formations is still confusing.

You can make any chaos detachment/formation any legion as long as it follows the basic legion rules, so yes to the Purge Death Guard. Same with the mayhem pack. Both of those are stand alone detatchments. The others are a bit of a mixed answer. You can take the terminator one, mayhem, and helforged. However, they are all auxiliary choices for the larger "decurion" detatchment so you will need a core formation as well. The daemon engine one is an auxiliary option for the Black Legion "decurion" only. Sad.

Read through the detatchments/formations here. It might help. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Chaos_Space_Marines(7E)#Detachments_and_Formations

Another option would be to download battlescribe. It shouldn't be relied on for points (always check with a book) but it generally gets the detatchments and options correct.

**saruon**

So to wrap it up my army could look like this;

<<Death Guard Legion>>
(All units beneath gets the benefits if requirements are met?)

>>The Purge Detachment<<
(So I can have more elites/heavies)

Core:

The Lost and the Damned
(Cheapest one?)

Auxiliary:

Mayhem Pack
TAF
Helforged

Sad to hear about the Daemon Engine.

**Roknar**

You can have as many detachments as you want. A battleforged army is organized into detachments. Formations are detachments too.

Now, the traitor legions let you modify detachments of the chaos space marine faction. So you can have a purge detachment and make it a legion detachment. The units in a purge are organized according to their role, (troops, elites, etc).

In parallel to the purge you can also use formations like the terminator annihilation force. The formation tells you which units you need to bring. Those formations can also be dedicated to a legion. That can be a different legion too, the purge and any other detachments you bring aren't linked in any way.

So you can also bring the Black Legion-only daemon engine formation. You just can't dedicate it to death guard because it's already dedicated to the black legion.

Cores and auxiliaries have nothing to do with formations as such. That is just how certain detachments are organized. Instead of troops, elites, etc, it is divided into core formations and auxiliary formations and so on. So a Deathguard Vectorium( or whatever it's caled) needs 1 Core choice ad 1 auxuiliary as minimum. And the chart shows you want counts as a core formation.

I hope that makes more sense.

**Gordon Shumway**

saruon wrote:
So to wrap it up my army could look like this;

<<Death Guard Legion>>
(All units beneath gets the benefits if requirements are met?)

>>The Purge Detachment<<
(So I can have more elites/heavies)

Core:

The Lost and the Damned
(Cheapest one?)

Auxiliary:

Mayhem Pack
TAF
Helforged

Sad to hear about the Daemon Engine.

Getting close, but still not quite right. You take the Mayhem pack as a separate detatchment. So you would have three. Each one of them can be declared Death Guard if you want.
1) The Purge
2) the Mayhem Pak
3) a multi formation detatchment

For the multi formation detatchment (3) you need a core and an auxiliary formation. Your options for the Death Guard for the core are a Vectorium (chaos warband) or the Plague Colony. The Lost and the Damned counts as an auxiliary formation for the Death Guard. The TAF and Helforged would be auxiliaries.

On the other hand, you could just take a Death Guard CAD for option 3 and fill it with whatever you want. You would still get the Death Guard bonuses (fearless, FNP, and relentless) but not the special bonuses of the various formations. You would get objective secured troops instead.

**Captyn_Bob**

saruon wrote:
So to wrap it up my army could look like this;

<<Death Guard Legion>>
(All units beneath gets the benefits if requirements are met?)

>>The Purge Detachment<<
(So I can have more elites/heavies)

Core:

The Lost and the Damned
(Cheapest one?)

Auxiliary:

Mayhem Pack
TAF
Helforged

Sad to hear about the Daemon Engine.

Given the pretty massive bonus of rerolling 1's on fnp, I would recommend trying the vectorium detachment. It lets you take some elites and heavys as core and with objective secured.

There is a daemon engine formation called the hellforged warpack. It's slightly different to the black legion one 1 warpsmith 3-5 daemon engines.

All of the formations in the new book can be taken on their own. The only auxiliary choices which aren't standalone formations are the Lord of the Legion and spawn options.

Be careful with the multi formation tactica. The old one is for the black crusade detachment, which is cool but not as good for the death guard. The difference is the death guard vectorium can't take lost and the damned as a core option (but can take a plague Marine core)

**Snake Tortoise**

The relics giving 2+ armour are good on their own but crazy good for daemon princes of Tzeentch. The Alpha Legion version is good in a decurion (2+ re-rollable armour save all game, 2+ re-rollable cover save on T1) but the Night Lords equivalent is even better- it gets that re-rollable cover save all game! How do you counter that? AP2 CC attacks would be effective; a dreadnought is a good counter, assault termies can manage, and the various knights won't have any problems. Any CC attacks without AP2 are effectively worthless though. Shooting with AP2 and ignores cover would do damage but if used right those daemon princes will be in combat on the opponent's turn

Now to figure out how to represent drakescale plate on a daemon prince.

Roknar wrote:
This book is driving me mad. I want everything and can have nothing lol. Be it points, legion restrictions, decurion restrictions etc...there's always something that causes problems.
It's like an endless cycle of finding solutions or cool combos which bring their own new problems which lead to new ideas, etc etc XD

Exactly what I've been going through

Back in 3.5 it was easy enough to take advantage of all of the benefits of a specific legion- now there is so much more offered we have to pick and choose our favourite bits. It's a nice dilemma to be in!

**Latro_**

Problem i am having with some of my older armies is i have a lot of cad style builds like for example my deathguard have 3 obilts, a lascannon pred and a defiler but now with the funky new rules i can't fit those into the super detachment to well without dropping some of them and buying new models.

It seems the more i ponder lists the more a warpsmith keeps rearing his ugly head as a bit of a tax.

I could just keep to the cad but that re-roll 1 on fnp and stealth, i need that in my life! ugh.

**Roknar**

Right now I kind of want to try adding a kharybdis to a key list. It sucks that I need a core and a talon to make it work, not to mention no Obsec, but it's good enough of an excuse to field one for me. But not good enough to pay for the damn thing in RL, for that it would need to be a dedicated choice for termies or whatever so that it could become Obsec. That would push me over the edge. Not to mention it would be hilarious to see it harassing your opponent, ramming, burning, pinning and stealing objectives lol.

**macluvin**

My one question is why do plasma pistols cost 15 points… a melta does everything it does except better and cheaper. Only thing the plasma pistol does extra is grant an extra attack in close combat but that isnt worth the 5 points and gets hot vs.an extra strength the melta special rule and ap 1 for that vehicle damage chart… what the heck is that?