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 MagicJuggler wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
How are you getting loads of sergeant kills with SoM? Luckily rolling some Focussed Witchfires or high damage output spells? If it's on a Lord, he's not benefitting from a Spell Familiar, so I guess you're generating a fair bit of WC to power these spells? Also - "roll a telepathy power and switch to psychic shriek" - I thought SoM spells cant be traded for Primaris?

It's not a terrible use of 20pts by any stretch - most of the Biomancy powers are amazing on a Jetbike Lord. Come turn three it looks like decent odds on being able to pull off some nasty gambits - and your opponent can't predict if it's going to be from novas, meteors, or falcon punches.

You can get Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus at the same time (which is good, since Tzeentch's Firestorm sucks major). Since the rules for Scrolls turn a non-psyker into a new ML 1 Psyker that immediately generates a new power, the end result is a Psyker that although it has the Mark of Tzeentch, doesn't actually have to roll on the Lore of Tzeentch (which is good because that discipline is extremely wonky in its power viability). The Lord can also take a Spell Familiar (any HQ can take it for some silly reason), and I run an allied detachment of Blue Horrors/a Herald for extra Warp Charge/Daemon utility. I suppose in a pinch, I could shuffle more points around to replace the Malefic Tome on my Sorcerer with the Scripts of Erebus, but I prefer having a wider toolbox over a single turn of random bonus Warp Charge.

I don't think you can actually, since IIRC, it specifically stated that CPF replaces the normal psy focus.

I would have thought that if learning a new power fils your Psychic Focus, then a lv2 with Iron Arm and Hallucination who forgets Hallucination will then suddenly learn Smite...

From the Chaos Daemon FAQ.

Q: If a Chaos Daemon Psyker generates all of their powers from a single discipline from Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, does he benefit from Psychic Focus in addition to Chaos Psychic Focus (as the mandatory primaris power from Chaos Psychic Focus isn’t generated as such)? A: Yes.

This normally doesn't apply to CSM since a Mark means you *must* generate a god-specific power. However, Scrolls change this interaction.

Doesn't change the fact that a chaos lord isn't a chaos daemon.

Which legion is the best to fit an army around use of a renegade Imperial Knight? Or better yet, A lord of skulls? I got both and sometimes, I feel the inch to play one of them.

Huh. As I build up CSMs to try in 8ed, I've only just noticed that we can field Gunslinger unit champions with dual Plasma Pistols.

Seems marginal right now with the cost and the risk, especially if you're not in a Slaaneshi squad or DG squad. And no guarantee of it being an option in 8ed, so not much time to test its potential.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Huh. As I build up CSMs to try in 8ed, I've only just noticed that we can field Gunslinger unit champions with dual Plasma Pistols.

Seems marginal right now with the cost and the risk, especially if you're not in a Slaaneshi squad or DG squad. And no guarantee of it being an option in 8ed, so not much time to test its potential.

From what they've said, pistols will be really good, as they can shoot even if you are in combat, albeit only at the unit you are engaged with. One implication of this is that Cypher will become absolutely disgusting, assuming he keeps all his current rules.

How do we deal with Vindicare assassins? I'm thinking of summoning Screamers and slashing & eating them.

Leave the Vindicare alone. You're diverting a Lot of firepower into a 3 wound model that might have a 2+ cover save.

Our shop is having a farewell 7th tournament at the end of the month, and my most painted army is Death Guard, so I'm thinking of running a zombie list.

Now, should all cultists be zombies, or should a few still be "mortal" for runs and shooting?

Black Crusade detachment for a Lost and the Damned core with heldrake and solo spawn.

I could also choose to just run Typhus and 2 blobs of 30, cover board space, and spend remaining points on spawn, drakes, princes, and oblits.

What are some thoughts?

1850 pts, with about 80 cultists/zombies to use.

Noob question here
from what i've read it seems to me that if one was to take a Black Crusade Detachement, you could choose each individual formation inside to be from different legion, is that correct?

For example the warband could be an Alpha Legion warband, but the raptor talon could be death guard. This wouldt mix their respective bonus together, but would let you pick and choose the best legion per formation slot?

"Black Legion Speartip detachments are used exclusively by the forces of the Black Legion"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WRT Zombies: if you're taking a DG LatD, instead of Typhus you could go with Poxwalker Hive - you don't need to commit to everyone being zombies if you might need to Run somewhere or use your guns for a couple of turns or go to ground, and regaining D3 casualties per unit is pretty cool. In fact, you can use it like IG orders, infecting a unit that went to ground to make it get back up again. Being allowed to take options for them also means you can throw in a couple of Flamers, adding to their versatility and making them less straightforward to deal with than stuff that starts SaP & gunless.

Black Crusade detachments, different beast, from the Traitors hate supplement.

As they are made up of different formations, you could argue that you could assign different legions... butt i would veer away from that. For a start it means you have to make up what legion the auxiliary choices are, as they aren't part of a formation, which then means you need to declare the detachment as part of a legion, which then means that each formations could be part of a detachment and a formation, and we aren't given rules for dealing with that.

So, I just played a game with a Traitor Legions force, specifically a Night Lords CAD. I decided to run a fairly fluffy army rather than go super competitive, as my friend wanted to learn to play his new Harlequin army. This was my first time facing Harlequins. It was a really fun game, so I'll put a summary of it here.
First, the list I was using:

My opponent's list:

I was at a disadvantage in the fact that we were playing a Kill Points mission (Purge the Alien). He had only 7 separate units, whereas I had 11. I got first turn and he failed to sieze. He deployed his units mostly in a corner, infiltrating the three Troupes thanks to his Warlord Trait. I had deployed my units spread out over my side of the table (we were playing Dawn of War deployment).On my turn, I flew the Daemon Prince into the air and cast Endurance, which went off but got Perils, resulting in an automatic wound on my Prince, who proceeded to fail his grounding test at the end of the phase (but saved that wound thanks to Endurance). Now he was wide open and unable to jink. He also tried to cast Psychic Shriek on a Troupe that was hiding behind the central hill, but could only manage an 8 on 3d6. I moved up the Rhinos with their cargos towards the middle of the table, hugging some terrain for cover. The Sorcerer and the rest of the bikers also moved up the middle toward the large hill in the center, which was tall enough to hide behind. My Cultists were stuck in a forest well away from the opposing units, and had to try to move through cover over the course of the first two turns to get out of there and in the game. The Raptors with the flamer also moved toward the middle. I shot at the unit of Voidweavers with my Havocs, causing one of them to explode and wrecking another despite their cover saves. On his turn, my opponent immobilized the third Voidweaver in a forest. One of his units of Skyweavers tried to kill the Daemon Prince, putting two wounds on him but failing to get the final one. He attempted the same thing with that infiltrated Troupe that escaped the Shriek earlier, but failed to cause any wounds. The other unit of Skyweavers tried to shoot at the Chaos Bikes, but only two of the jetbikes had LOS and no wounds were taken. The Death Jester shot at, but failed to wound, the Havocs. One of the Troupes managed to drop an Autocannon wielder from that squad, though. Nothing else really happened on the first turn. We were using First Strike instead of First Blood, so neither of us scored it. On turn 2 I shuffled my bikes around to get at the Troupe that tried to kill the Prince. My Chaos Marines piled out of their Rhino to try and kill the Troupe that was menacing my Havocs. Their shooting did kill a few of them, but the others got fairly lucky with their saves. My Raptors with the meltas tried to Deep Strike next to the unit of Skyweavers that shot at the Prince, but mishapped off the board and into Ongoing Reserves. The Prince launched into the air, casting Endurance once again but failing to accomplish anything with Shriek. The Sorcerer cast Warp Speed successfully, but my opponent denied his Shriek attempt. The bikers then shot at the Troupe in front of them, killing five of them. That Troupe passed their morale check and stayed put. The Chosen shot at the Skyweavers from their Rhino, killing one but losing one of their own to Gets Hot . The flamer Raptors continued to move along behind the bikes, trying to get into position to attack something on turn 3. The Havocs shot at the third Troupe, killing a couple of guys. In the Assault phase, my bikers and Sorcerer assaulted the survivors of the Troupe they shot at. Thanks to Warp Speed, they killed them all while losing only one of their own. In my opponent's turn, he had one of his Skyweaver units pounce on the Chaos Marines, which they obliterated between shooting and assault (those Zephyrglaives are nasty!). The others charged and nearly wiped the Chaos bike unit, with the Sorcerer barely surviving only because his Warp Speed let him kill one jetbike before it could swing, and he had an extra wound from his Gift of Mutation. The Sorcerer remained locked in combat with the Skyweavers, preventing him from throwing any mind bullets (which is why my opponent chose not to Hit and Run). His immobilized Voidweaver blew the gun off of the CSMs' Rhino, and the three surviving models from the Troupe killed another Havoc. The Death Jester killed yet another. The Havocs failed their morale check and barely stayed on the board (one more inch and they'd have been gone). On turn 3, my Cultists moved up toward the combat between the jetbikes and Sorcerer. The melta Raptors finally landed near the other unit of Skyweavers. The Prince also landed, trying to get into good position for some Shriek action. The Havocs, who were now down to 2 men, regrouped and moved back into the ruins where they had camped out before. In the Psychic phase, I barely got any dice, but I did manage to cast Warp Speed again. I failed to cast Shriek or Endurance with the Prince despite the spell familiar. Shooting wise, two of my Chosen popped up from their Rhino's hatch to shoot at the healthy unit of Skyweavers, but failed to do anything. The melta raptors fired at them as well, but both meltas missed and the pistols caused only one wound, which my opponent saved. The flamer Raptors moved up and gunned down the Death Jester. In the Assault phase, my Cultists charged into the combat with the Sorcerer and Skyweavers, which tipped the balance of that combat. All of the Skyweavers swung at the Sorcerer, and they barely got the one wound they needed, killing him. The cultists dropped two of them in return, causing them to flee combat. On my opponent's turn, his damaged unit of Skyweavers regrouped. The others shot at the Daemon Prince, who made his saves like a boss. They then charged him, getting a single wound with Hammer of Wrath. He rolled a 1, which he rerolled due to being a Daemon of Tzeentch and got another 1, killing him and earning my opponent Slay the Warlord. One of the Troupes charged into the Havocs, killing the last heavy weapon, but the Champion stood strong and actually wounded the Troupe Master in a challenge, resulting in a tied combat with the two remaining Harlies. The other Troupe shot at the flamer Raptors, killing the guy with the flamer, but then failed a 5 inch charge (my opponent forgot about Fleet). On turn 4, my Chosen got out of their vehicle and shot at the large unit of Skyweavers, killing one. The melta Raptors killed another from that squad. The Cultists gamely shot at the two survivors of the unit they killed, but failed to accomplish anything even when they charged them the same turn. The other Raptors shot at and charged the Troupe in front of them. After the exchange of blows, the Raptor Champion was killed but one of the Harlies died as well, resulting in tied combat. The Havoc champ killed the Troupe Master he was facing after surviving combat against all 13 attacks from his opponents. He just could not fail a save. Incidentally, that kill was Slay the Warlord for me! In my opponent's turn, his 2 man unit of Skyweavers finished the Cultists and his other Skyweavers mulched the melta Raptors. The slap fight between the Havoc Champion and the Troupers continued, with no wounds scored. The other fight, between the Raptors and the other Troupe, ended up tied again with one casualty apiece. On turn 5, very little happened other than my Havoc champ ended up killing the last of that Troupe he was fighting, and my Raptors continued to keep the Troupe they fought locked down, even causing them to fail a Fear test. The Skyweavers killed the Chosen. At this point I only had the Raptors and Havoc Champion, and the Chosen's Rhino, alive. The game ended after that, with me having 4 points (3 killpoins and Warlord), and my opponent having 8 (7 killpoints and Warlord). All in all, it was a bloody battle that could have gone either way. My Psychic rolls were hot garbage overall. I have never had much luck with Shriek in the past, and that trend definitely continued. I also failed some critical rolls in other areas, especially the double fail that led to the Prince's demise. I probably could have won that game if a few of those rolls had gone my way. Oh well, it was still a fun game!

My takeaway:
-Night Lords are pretty good, but not top tier. The Fear stuff really never came up except with Raptors, who have Fear anyway. The Stealth bonus was clutch, as the Havocs would have died much earlier without it (and their plucky Champion would have missed his chance to shine). The relic armor that the Prince had never got its chance to shine due to some terrible rolls, but 20 points is a steal for this thing!
-Big units of Harlequin Skyweavers are absolutely terrifying, especially if they all have Zephyrglaives. On the charge, a full unit of 6 has 24 attacks at S5 AP2, and they happen at Initiative 6. The fact that they have two wounds means that they are pretty durable as well unless you can double them out.
-Havocs with Autocannons are awesome! Their range and rate of fire is great! Autocannons are probably the go-to weapon for Havocs.

From what you've learned so far from the daily updates on 8th ed. what do you think will be the strengths of CSM?

Still too early to tell imho. We've been fed a lot of propaganda so far that may or may not come true. I'm guessing we will see daemons and csm be true bros again by virtue of sharing the chaos faction keyword. Undivided might make a come back since they made it a thing in SW:A. And Daemon princes could potentially become really really scary with the new character mechanics. Other than that I suspect pretty much what we do now except less gimped.

Are ten Slaaneshi Plasma Chosen in a Dreadclaw worth four Helbrutes? On paper, a FNP I5 3A gunner unit looks like a tasty deep insertion force.

So, an odd idea for my 1ksons.

Taking a sorcerer with the astral grimouir, ahriman and a squad of scarabs (amongs the rest of the list), I can manage to do an odd slingshot manuver.

I deploy these guys as a single squad, optimally with ahriman rolling for 3 infiltrates so I can infiltrate my mini-bomb.

Then, as movement starts, I begin with moving another squad up forward (possibly more scarabs), them take my mini-bomb and start a scatter manuver.
The terminators jump up 12" to threaten a target of choice (or even assault if i did not infiltrate, and the enemy got carelessly too close)
The sorcerer with the astral jumps in a whole other direction, and hides inside a completely different unit that I want to jump with next turn (the first unit I moved up)
Ahriman himself jumps in yet a third direction, preparing to do a psychic nuke on something, and then troobo-boost into safty in the shooting phase.


Will probably work rather damn well on unsuspecting victims that never faced 1ksons before and know just what we are capable of, right?

Any ideas on how to upgrade the manuver?

Why does Ahriman need to be part of this, hasn't he already got the same mobility as Jump Infantry?

Mostly because I derped and forgot disks are better than jetpacks XD

Oh well, that's one idea down the drain from all the right reasons-its not that it won't work, its just that you can do it without it.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.

To be fair, it may no longer be necessary.

 Jancoran wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.

To be fair, it may no longer be necessary.

This actually would be a far better outcome.

Are you two saying it would be good to have less csm riding juggernauts? I already converted a lord, but if they released a new kit with berzerkers riding juggernauts I'd buy them in a heartbeat. We need more of that gak. Ride me closer, I got skulls to collect and blood to spill!

Nothing against more mounts. I have so many CSM HQ´s that have rarely or never seen the field because a Lord on Juggernaut always seemed like a better option. So I would love to have a reason to field non-riding CSM Lords more.

Oh, sure. Same for princes. I hope our princes benefit from that character protection, that alone would make make khorne and slaanesh more attractive, not that there is any reason to believe they will stay the same.
Actually, is there anything equivalent in AoS? Do you get to choose or did they split up marks into different god specific units like the exalted sorcerer, cuz that would make me sad.

 Jancoran wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.

To be fair, it may no longer be necessary.

Necessary is one thing. Fun is another. There's a joy in playing Herohammer and maxing your Power Levels.

Hmm. With Herohammer in mind, are there many units out there that provide a Character-rich target? And what spells are the best to fish for if an opponent presents such low-hanging fruit?

(Also if anyone can confirm or disconfirm the efficaciousness of a Dreadclaw Slaaneshi Plasma Chosen squad)

 killerpenguin wrote:
From what you've learned so far from the daily updates on 8th ed. what do you think will be the strengths of CSM?

Dying.

That's a rather slowed comment given we've seen ONE csm profile (and only a handful in general), of the Rubrics, who are freaking hard to kill. And all thier guns got better, some massively so.

Against single-wound shots, 8th Rubrics equal 7th Scarabs. Tzeentch knows how durable the actual Scarabs are.

They are Cybermen to the Tau Daleks.