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Doesn't really mean much. DG and TSons are listed as factions the same way all the special snowflake loyalist chapters are. If anything it makes sense to make each legion and chapter it's own thing at this point and just do away with general marines.
Only reason normal marines exist, is as a stand in for those chapters who haven't gotten their own release yet.

KDK is also missing. Well wanted to go for WE anyway v0v

DG and TSons being listed is a good thing. I'm thinking we'll see World Eaters as well and then a generic Chaos Space Marines book/codex equivalent. The CSM book will probably function similar to the current SM book, with Black Legion as the "primary" faction and legion specific tactics for the rest.

So one question about kill team, as it seems i can use the legion rules for my kill team.

Which legion is best suited for it. My thoughts are that, Alpha Legion, Black Legion, World Eaters or Death Guard are the best for using in Kill team.

Opinions?

Honestly who cares about KDK? It was Codex: Gorepack and Brazen Onslought. Yeah the tithe system was neat but it was basically their way to sell the new Bloodthirster models (which are admittedly still gorgeous)

The sooner we get rid of it, the better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Darksider wrote:
So one question about kill team, as it seems i can use the legion rules for my kill team.

Which legion is best suited for it. My thoughts are that, Alpha Legion, Black Legion, World Eaters or Death Guard are the best for using in Kill team.

Opinions?

Death guard and Alpha Legion make the best Kill Teams. Alpha Legion gives everyone Infiltrate (that you'd want, anyway), and Death Guard of course is FNP.

Can somebody tell me what the appeal of kill team is vs shadow war? Seems to me that now that shadow war is getting a rulebook...again, that it would be the superior ruleset for those types of games.

 Roknar wrote:
Can somebody tell me what the appeal of kill team is vs shadow war? Seems to me that now that shadow war is getting a rulebook...again, that it would be the superior ruleset for those types of games.

You get to use more models in Kill team and it is considerably easier to learn as it is current 40k.

I missed my chance to get Shadow War which sucks but I like my Power Armor dudes in small games. As far as I know Chaos gives Cultists and then marines right?

 Roknar wrote:
Can somebody tell me what the appeal of kill team is vs shadow war? Seems to me that now that shadow war is getting a rulebook...again, that it would be the superior ruleset for those types of games.

Kill Team has the normal 40k Rules, but plays a lot faster and smoother than big 40k Games.

You also can use more different units as in Shadow War Armageddon, but you lack the flexibility to kit out all your dudes differently. You also must buy a squad and no individuals and there is no campaign system or individual leveling system.

In kill team you can use some Mech and also Bikes and in comparison with Shadow War you can have more models if you want.


I will play both, if i get my hands on the new Rulebook for Shadow War =).


@Slayer-Fan-123

Thx for your answer, will go with Alpha Legion as i like them more and i find Infiltrate really good^^.

Hmm, I see. Thanks. Personally I would lean heavily towards shadow war as it offers more for making dedicated conversions and playing a campaign where your band actually evolves.

 Roknar wrote:
Hmm, I see. Thanks. Personally I would lean heavily towards shadow war as it offers more for making dedicated conversions and playing a campaign where your band actually evolves.

You can convert for Kill Team heavily as well, but you're definitely right on the Campaign system.

How many Power Armor dudes can you take in shadow war?

I didn't manage to get my hands on shadow war in time, but I'mpreordering the rulebook. If it's anything like mordheim is on steam then it's probably around ten, leaning towards less. Not sure how the factions come into play here.

So, having just re-entered 40k, I recently purchased a Death Guard army pretty oblivious to these incoming changes. Getting help from the dakka folk, I made the old csm/termicide/bikers/havoc list with a few fun extras.

I read that no models will be squatted, but then DG is now listed as it's own 'faction' within Chaos. This to me suggests the possibility that, although my army will not be invalidated, but it might be 'kicked out' of Death Guard, and become a DG army.

I haven't played AoS, so I don't know how it works, but I was wondering if people would be able to shed any light on how the army construction works in this respect.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Death guard and Alpha Legion make the best Kill Teams. Alpha Legion gives everyone Infiltrate (that you'd want, anyway), and Death Guard of course is FNP.

This pleases me! Both of these legions are the ones you hear about working far outside the Eye of Terror, with small forces spreading corruption in their own inimitable ways.

 Roknar wrote:
Can somebody tell me what the appeal of kill team is vs shadow war? Seems to me that now that shadow war is getting a rulebook...again, that it would be the superior ruleset for those types of games.

They are just 2 different games. SWA is basically necromunda. And csm are in a good spot there. Marines are pretty tough and have high ini and ws/bs coupled with 3+ saves. Cultists are cheap and good for catching bullets and pinning opponents with ranged attacks. And a heavy bolter is super deadly. The trick is finding a good shooting point. But once you find it, a heavy bolter with lazer dot is going to annihilate a lot of things. It is quite expensive though. Autocannon is a bit more reliable - cause it has 4+ ammo rolls instead of 5+ and is s7 but it's only sustained 1 instead of sustained 2.

Well, if you're gona play it, your team would benefit from the gunner greatly. Or even from two. They are very expensive - kinda like 2.5 marines but they do the job. Marks look interesting. I'm only not sure about kark of khorne. +1 attack is good and all but it's really hard to get to cc vs an opponent who's trying to avoid it. Mostly cause of the pinning system - every ranged hit causes the model to fall down - even if it wasn't a wound. And it remaines pinned till the end of it's turn unless there's a friendly non-recruit within 2" - in this case it can take and ini test and try to stand up and act normally. In this regard, slaanesh could even be more effective for a mellee fighter. You stand up more often and don't get a turn wasted - which is a death sentence for elite mellee. It's just that marines are still pretty slow to get to mellee as reliably as harlequins or witches can. Yep, it's harder to actually kill a marine but it's possible to slow him down significantly. Even a bunch of lazguns can be problematic to overcome. And there could be a melta or a heavy flamer nearby.

I don't have much experience though, it might be a bit different - especially when you get access to a terminator. This dudes are so tanky. And as the opponent is forced to shoot at the closest enemy, you could even try to rush forward. But there's still a number of weapons that can hurt a terminator. So, it needs to be seen.

What do you guys think about the recent news about 8th ed? How do you think it will affect CSM?

 killerpenguin wrote:
What do you guys think about the recent news about 8th ed? How do you think it will affect CSM?

I'm not happy about getting Traitor Legions only to have it be invalidated so soon. That said, I think 8th will help some units perform better. I'm thinking Khorne Berzerkers might just be good again, at least if the rumors about charging out of a Rhino are true. Having vehicles be treated more like MC's will help out our Dinobots, too. Who knows, depending on how they point cost everything maybe even Defilers might be playable again. I'm hopeful that GW will deliver on what they said about every model having a place in our armies. If that's true, I think it may be a good time to be a Chaos player.

I suspect Autocannons will get a bump in versatility. They'll almost certainly have some AP, meaning they'll go from being a significant nuisance to MEQ to being a major threat.

In the meantime, and on the subject of our favourite heavy weapon: have any DG players experimented with a Havoc squad in a Rhino with two Autocannons (or Missile Launchers)? As far as I can tell, it could move a steady 6" and blaze away with both a Havoc rack and, erm, Havoc crew. Sort of like a rifle dread with better firepower, and trading a point of AV for a quick getaway mode that can't be denied by a charge.

I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.

You hope that the worst artifact (tied with the Murder Sword) didn't get axed?

I'd rather it be axed because it needs a HUGE price cut or a HUGE reworking.

Well, SoM as is will be much better if ICs get a Wounds pool akin to AoS... or DPs get a bump in T & W.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.

You hope that the worst artifact (tied with the Murder Sword) didn't get axed?

I'd rather it be axed because it needs a HUGE price cut or a HUGE reworking.

I consider it better than the Murder Sword and the Dimensional Key. I've found it worth taking with Word Bearers as it's slightly more point efficient (and formation-efficient) to give it to my Lord rather than take a second Sorcerer (that, and the 2nd Sorcerer can't be part of the same initial Chaos Warband).

Since buying a ML is 25 pts anyway, it's functionally 20 points for 6 random powers (or less if you roll a telepathy power and want to stick to having Psychic Shriek). Chances are you're taking a Sigil anyway so the Mark of Tzeentch is basically paying Storm Shield costs all over again.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
What do you guys think about the recent news about 8th ed? How do you think it will affect CSM?

I'm not happy about getting Traitor Legions only to have it be invalidated so soon. That said, I think 8th will help some units perform better. I'm thinking Khorne Berzerkers might just be good again, at least if the rumors about charging out of a Rhino are true. Having vehicles be treated more like MC's will help out our Dinobots, too. Who knows, depending on how they point cost everything maybe even Defilers might be playable again. I'm hopeful that GW will deliver on what they said about every model having a place in our armies. If that's true, I think it may be a good time to be a Chaos player.

Let's be honest, we knew 8th edition is coming. Traitor's Hate and Traitor Legions were like test marketing for CSMs in the new edition.

I am happy that DG and TS are called out as their own factions on the wh40k.com site, for a few reasons.

1) This probably means DG is getting it's own Codex. Yay!

2) Black Legion - my army - is not on the list. Hopefully, this means they will get their own Codex in a few years, after power creep has set in. Yay!

In general, 8th edition sounds a lot more balanced. when 6th edition came out, the great hope was that the CSM Codex was a sign of things to come, where every army would be constrained to certain norms around power level. Everything I have read makes me think GW is actually trying to do that this time around. If this turns out to be the case, it would be huge for CSMs.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I really hope that the Scrolls of Magnus don't get axed, and that a Chaos Lord can still take Daemon mounts despite there not being official GW models.

You hope that the worst artifact (tied with the Murder Sword) didn't get axed?

I'd rather it be axed because it needs a HUGE price cut or a HUGE reworking.

I consider it better than the Murder Sword and the Dimensional Key. I've found it worth taking with Word Bearers as it's slightly more point efficient (and formation-efficient) to give it to my Lord rather than take a second Sorcerer (that, and the 2nd Sorcerer can't be part of the same initial Chaos Warband).

Since buying a ML is 25 pts anyway, it's functionally 20 points for 6 random powers (or less if you roll a telepathy power and want to stick to having Psychic Shriek). Chances are you're taking a Sigil anyway so the Mark of Tzeentch is basically paying Storm Shield costs all over again.

Dimensional Key is at least useable via Raptor Talon and supporting Terminators. The Scrolls have no way to make themselves better.

The main reason I like the Scrolls? The Chaos FAQ confirms that if you kill a character by *any* non-Sweep means (aka "fry a tac sergeant"), you get a Boon roll. Combine that with Favored Scions from the Chaos Warband, and optionally Nexus of the Gods, and I've had some...hilarious power levels from a Tzeentch Lord (and Nurgle Sorcerer). The funniest thing? If stupid power stacking is your thing, it's theoretically possible to now have a Lord with Strength and Toughness 10, FNP and all the works...More realistically though, having a T5 Obsec Jetbike that can hide in a blob of fearless chaff wins games.

How are you getting loads of sergeant kills with SoM? Luckily rolling some Focussed Witchfires or high damage output spells? If it's on a Lord, he's not benefitting from a Spell Familiar, so I guess you're generating a fair bit of WC to power these spells? Also - "roll a telepathy power and switch to psychic shriek" - I thought SoM spells cant be traded for Primaris?

It's not a terrible use of 20pts by any stretch - most of the Biomancy powers are amazing on a Jetbike Lord. Come turn three it looks like decent odds on being able to pull off some nasty gambits - and your opponent can't predict if it's going to be from novas, meteors, or falcon punches.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The main reason I like the Scrolls? The Chaos FAQ confirms that if you kill a character by *any* non-Sweep means (aka "fry a tac sergeant"), you get a Boon roll. Combine that with Favored Scions from the Chaos Warband, and optionally Nexus of the Gods, and I've had some...hilarious power levels from a Tzeentch Lord (and Nurgle Sorcerer). The funniest thing? If stupid power stacking is your thing, it's theoretically possible to now have a Lord with Strength and Toughness 10, FNP and all the works...More realistically though, having a T5 Obsec Jetbike that can hide in a blob of fearless chaff wins games.

Nothing Nurgle can take it.

 lindsay40k wrote:
How are you getting loads of sergeant kills with SoM? Luckily rolling some Focussed Witchfires or high damage output spells? If it's on a Lord, he's not benefitting from a Spell Familiar, so I guess you're generating a fair bit of WC to power these spells? Also - "roll a telepathy power and switch to psychic shriek" - I thought SoM spells cant be traded for Primaris?

It's not a terrible use of 20pts by any stretch - most of the Biomancy powers are amazing on a Jetbike Lord. Come turn three it looks like decent odds on being able to pull off some nasty gambits - and your opponent can't predict if it's going to be from novas, meteors, or falcon punches.

You can get Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus at the same time (which is good, since Tzeentch's Firestorm sucks major). Since the rules for Scrolls turn a non-psyker into a new ML 1 Psyker that immediately generates a new power, the end result is a Psyker that although it has the Mark of Tzeentch, doesn't actually have to roll on the Lore of Tzeentch (which is good because that discipline is extremely wonky in its power viability). The Lord can also take a Spell Familiar (any HQ can take it for some silly reason), and I run an allied detachment of Blue Horrors/a Herald for extra Warp Charge/Daemon utility. I suppose in a pinch, I could shuffle more points around to replace the Malefic Tome on my Sorcerer with the Scripts of Erebus, but I prefer having a wider toolbox over a single turn of random bonus Warp Charge.

saint_red wrote:
DG and TSons being listed is a good thing. I'm thinking we'll see World Eaters as well and then a generic Chaos Space Marines book/codex equivalent. The CSM book will probably function similar to the current SM book, with Black Legion as the "primary" faction and legion specific tactics for the rest.

Lady Atia hinted yesterday that we will see a general chaos release. I know that sounds general as they could get a release in 5 years and she would be right though she has a good track record and I got the impression it would be later this year.

Niiice. So the first spell you roll with give you PF. I'd have thought that once you generate the Primaris, it stays with you, even if you add more powers later?

I don't have the rules on hand but I would assume you lose the focus from what I remember. That said, there's only one other character that learns new powers in-game, that being Yvraine.

Other than rolling the first power on Pyromancy or Tzeentch, any of the other Primaris powers have their use; even Smite can be a good "one warp charge leftover" due to the Lord's BS 5, while Prescience is always nice to have. The fact you roll new powers at the start of the turn helps too, since you can then plan any moves accordingly.

The most extreme case I've had was getting Sunburst off against a Dark Eldar player, killing 2 Arena Champs, a Solarite and a Sybarite, and getting to make 8(!) rolls for Chaos Boons.