Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 killerpenguin wrote:

You could just bring a night lords raptor talon formation and a spawn together with your death guard and, then all the raptors have objective secured. That's allowed right?

They would only get guaranteed nightfight and +1 cover from it (which they won't use cause they're in reserves). But the rest of the army could benefit from nightfight. Could be useful for a mellee oriented army.

Hmm. That could work pretty well with a WE/KDK rushdown. Throw in a flyer and use DFTS, and you've probably got the Raptors coming in on a 2+ on turn 2. WE are pretty good at getting Dimensional Key wet on turn one, enabling some point-blank DS arrival. Could a bunch of Night Lords Sorcerers join the WE units and get carried along with their pregame move, casting Ectomancy movement spells to help ensure the T1 charge?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. That could work pretty well with a WE/KDK rushdown. Throw in a flyer and use DFTS, and you've probably got the Raptors coming in on a 2+ on turn 2. WE are pretty good at getting Dimensional Key wet on turn one, enabling some point-blank DS arrival. Could a bunch of Night Lords Sorcerers join the WE units and get carried along with their pregame move, casting Ectomancy movement spells to help ensure the T1 charge?

I don't think the WE pregame move confers to non-WE units. Otherwise I'd stick a WE Juggerlord with the Talisman into a blob of KDK Flesh Hounds, perhaps with a KDK Juggerherald just for the lolz.

Edit: I do however believe that the Talisman does confer to any unit the Warlord joins, even a non-WE one, so I still might try a WE Lord with the flesh hounds and see what happens sometime.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Edit: I do however believe that the Talisman does confer to any unit the Warlord joins, even a non-WE one, so I still might try a WE Lord with the flesh hounds and see what happens sometime.

I hadn't though of that, thats a nice litte buff for the hounds. Might even be enough for a first turn charge.

Hey team, two questions for the hive mind today.

Firstly, what is the general consensus on Forgefiends? Both the autocannon and ectoplasma setups seem decent to me but seem a little overcosted. Daemonforge is what gives them an edge over units like autocannon/heavy bolter Predators but you'll mostly be wounding on a 2+ so the re-roll is a bit underutilised.

The second question is related to the first - how are CSM players dealing with flyers at the moment? Hades autocannon Forgefiends seem like a really decent way of killing flyers and I can't think of much else aside from bringing Heldrakes.

FFs seems to be in a tricky position of being a huge and scary distraction carnifex and yet not that much tougher than a Helbrute and not actually having that much more firepower than Havocs or Oblits or Rapiers. In fact, Rapiers might even be somewhat tougher. Main advantages are mobility and the forge gimmick (which is less useful for wounding but significantly improves their performance against medium armour) and elevated LOS, I suppose. And sometimes Daemon saves them from a cheeky Melta attack.

Flyers? What Flyers? Since I started packing a Hell Talon in my case, I've not seen any in my local meta. It's like putting one of them MiGs with the preposterously overpowered autocannons up against a Lancaster.

Forgefiends are infinitely more useful in that formation that gives them Daemonforge each turn. Entirely worth the potential loss of a HP.

The problem I tend to find is that most lists have either no flyers or too many to try to handle. I don't see much in between where they just bring a single vehicle. Far more often than not, at tournaments I see 5-7 flyrants or other FMC's.

You can't make a good balanced list that can handle that as well as the myriad of other popular tournament lists like battle companies, imperial knights, and scat bike spam. The best approach is to learn how to beat them on objectives and deny their movement when they have a lot of flyers.

If you are in the situation of facing only one or two flyers, then I'm a big fan of the fire raptor. I get far more use out of that than I did from my hell talon. If you bring a couple heldrakes you can also get pretty good at using them for AA by having them vector strike.

I've fielded forgefiends in fun games and they've been ok. They're like 70-80 pts overpriced for a competitive game though.
I've been using one with hades and an ectoplasm cannon. Hades is generally more useful. Ectoplasm is just a small blast that can also overheat and only has a 24" shooting distance. But when taken in addition with hades, it's pretty ok. However, once again, the firepower and durability you get only suits fun casual games. It's laughable for competitive play.

Hmm. Lasherfiend has come up elsewhere in a discussion about Space Wolves vs CSM. Specifically, what we can do about Thunderwolf Cavalry.

TWC are horrific. I've had a CSM Tac Squad on the second floor of a building fire FIVE volleys into a pack (three shooting phases, two Overwatch) and still get annihilated by their charge.

A squad of Cultists and a squad of Autocannon Havocs would have done much better at holding down the flank, but even then SW have a 2+ save Relic Armour they can give to a character who can tank with 4W, and against Plasma pull up a SS and LOS, so it's going to take the crossfire of two Havoc units to threaten a Deathstar.

Vindicator? It has to get within charge distance to fire on them, and even if they've bunched up together as a target then 2/3 of them will deflect the most powerful medium vehicle ordnance in the Eye with a flipping buckler.

What can we do against this unit? I can't think of anything that can charge them and not be jumping into a woodchipper. And I include anything we can Summon in that. Hell, CTA Allied Genestealers will bounce off. *Maybe* Magnus can prevail. *Maybe*.

Tarpitting seems a far cry. Death Guard will pop at a graze from their Thunder Hammers. A prohibitively expensive Sekhmet Conclave can potentially get a re-rollable 2++, likewise a Lord of Change, but let's face it a critical Blessing is not difficult to take off in the enemy's psychic phase and Grimoire of True Names roulette is really playing the odds.

Except... the Lasherfiend. It is, of course, pretty much Pyrovore tier as a general rule. But what happens if it engages TWC? It'll take four rounds for it to get past SS to ID a single pupper, and it'll probably be brought down before then. But could it hold them in place well enough for a melee unit to do the business?

What about Blight Grenades? Is there an I malediction we can apply to have a high chance of bringing down their WS?

I'm pretty sure the Nurgle and Slaanesh disciplines have maledictions to help you out. I know for a fact Nurgle has a -1T, which makes it significantly easier put them down with any non S7 weapon.

The reason I was wondering about forgefiends is that they would do a decent job against flyers and ground targets - meaning you don't need to engage in the rock paper scissors that is skyfire and flyers.

Without doing the math, I thought double lasherfiends on the charge would win against a 3 man unit of TWC? Roughly the same points cost too.

Other than that you could try fishing for Warp Fate or Death Hex in Sinistrum or for Invisibility. If you get Warp Fate or Invisibility you'll want your own CC deathstar unit though. It is quite sad that CSM is lacking in heavy CC units.

Failing that you could go with a Knight and stomp/D sword them to death.

Yeah, I killed a wolfstar with my full tzeentch war cabal by just fishing for enfeeble and then just spamming doombolts into them. Gets even easier if you can also get the power that cuts their invul save down.

Hi Guys, I need some clarification on how the BAZILLION CSM books interact...

So as far as I can tell, I have;

chapter legions

formations

decurions

So in order to get decurion benefits of X chapter; you must meet the Core + 1Aux requirements? using only the formations detailed in the decurion

Any type of CAD/Allies/unbound can be of a particular chapter; therefore gaining the chapter bonuses(?)

Formations from books outside of traitors legions can still be assigned to a chapter(?)

So an example; I want to build a walker army, I could;

Use a decurion, take a cheap Core and add in the Hellfrog warpack ( i loved the typo so much I kept it); that would give me the chapter and decurion bonuses

Use formations from any book and assign them to a chapter; so I could take a mayhem pack, the helcult, assign them to say alpha legion; and gain just the chapter bonuses for all the formations?

Also I hear something about chapter books coming out? or something along those lines?

All right. They must follow the restrictions, though. So, a hellfrog would probably benefit the most from deathguard taken as part of the dg decurion as the +1 cover outside 18" is the only benefit to vehicles that legions grant iirc.

Any formation, cad or any detachment indeed - even killteam - can benefit from legion rules as long as you follow the restrictions.

 koooaei wrote:
All right. They must follow the restrictions, though. So, a hellfrog would probably benefit the most from deathguard taken as part of the dg decurion as the +1 cover outside 18" is the only benefit to vehicles that legions grant iirc.
Any formation, cad or any detachment indeed - even killteam - can benefit from legion rules as long as you follow the restrictions.

Awesome ty, yeh almost none of the legions benefit vehicles. The only other real choice I could see would be the alpha legion. As I could run;

Helfrog warpack

mayhem pack

+whatever other walker formations

and I can then do warlord shenanigans, with the many heads rule. But in general im not sure thats all that viable or beneficial; other than being hilarious watching my warlord trait bounce around between helbrutes.

I think what I am looking at then;

Min plague colony (is this cheaper than a min warband?)

Cyclopia cabal (for the ectomancy and powers for flying around terrain etc..)

Helfrog warpack

Daemon Prince - If I can fit him in pointswise, maybe I should either pick the cyclopia or the prince, as if Im aiming 1500 I think both eats up a lot of points.

Mayhem pack or the 5 helbrute one. If I go 5 helbrute one I can stick them in the flying ruins, I can abandon any that get the crazed fire result (if I need to move, AFAIK you can still pick the crazed result even if you abandon and they become their own squadron).

EDIT: Maybe I should grab the min warband instead, for Objsec, the unit of bikes to escort bike/sorc lords. Hmm Relentless is also quite potent I feel. But if I am running plague or warband min, its still gona be a lot of points for getting in those plasma. But the downside being that te decurion benefits only apply to the formations in the decurion, so the mayhem and cyclopia wouldn't benefit. Damn. Maybe I think I just go for the formations stand-alone. As that way I dont worry about all the taxes and I just run some crazy combo of helbrutes, maulerfiends and a cyclopia filled with spawns.

Don't forget that you can put Helbrutes in the warband. Those would have Obsec.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Don't forget that you can put Helbrutes in the warband. Those would have Obsec.

They'd kinda do nothing though.

I dunno about that being a typo ^^
hellfrogs
With the upcoming DG release that might make for an interesting conversion project

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I might just ask here:

What are peoples thoughts on loadouts for CSM Troops in a Night Lords Warband? Using their traits, Fear for CC, Stealth for camping, I figure Plasma for shooty boys and Flamers on CC boys (saving Melta for fast platforms).

I'd still say Melta on all of them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd still say Melta on all of them.

I tend to agree with this. Melta has so many uses. However, it can work well to sprinkle in a little bit of plasma, as it has better range and, when in rapid fire range, more shots. Shooty units are good platforms for plasma, whereas a unit that wants to be in CC should take flamers or meltas (but you knew that). I myself was wondering about how best to make a Night Lords list. Fluffwise the Raptor Talon makes a lot of sense as a core, but having to wait until turn 2 for most of your guys is not a great plan. Maybe run a list with 2 cores (one Warband and one Raptor Talon). Problem I see with that idea is that the points will add up fast.

Solar Shock wrote:

I think what I am looking at then;

Min plague colony (is this cheaper than a min warband?)

Cyclopia cabal (for the ectomancy and powers for flying around terrain etc..)

Helfrog warpack

Daemon Prince - If I can fit him in pointswise, maybe I should either pick the cyclopia or the prince, as if Im aiming 1500 I think both eats up a lot of points.

Mayhem pack or the 5 helbrute one. If I go 5 helbrute one I can stick them in the flying ruins, I can abandon any that get the crazed fire result (if I need to move, AFAIK you can still pick the crazed result even if you abandon and they become their own squadron).

EDIT: Maybe I should grab the min warband instead, for Objsec, the unit of bikes to escort bike/sorc lords. Hmm Relentless is also quite potent I feel. But if I am running plague or warband min, its still gona be a lot of points for getting in those plasma. But the downside being that te decurion benefits only apply to the formations in the decurion, so the mayhem and cyclopia wouldn't benefit. Damn. Maybe I think I just go for the formations stand-alone. As that way I dont worry about all the taxes and I just run some crazy combo of helbrutes, maulerfiends and a cyclopia filled with spawns.

Plague colony is indeed cheaper but you lack utility that the warband provides. Don't forget that with all the death guard bonuses, regular mon csm are as durable as plague marines for 6 pts cheaper. Yep, plagues can have 2 specials but an extra plazma or melta on a marine dude is nothing to write home about. Whereas you can have a bunch of relentless havoks that are tough as Nurgle gak. Or bikers tough as Nurgle gak. Or...basically everything is tough as Nurgle gak - even warp talons don't look that bad. I mean they do look like melted poo but they're becoming ok crunch-wise. +1 T and buffed up fnp with re-rolling ones is a game-changer. You're coming dangerously close to necron level of durability. As for elite slots in the warband, yeah, you could run a helbrute but i'd rather just take min termies with combi-plazmas. They're somewhat better even when footslogging.

DP is decent. Increased resilience with free fnp is good and will also help vs perils once in a while. It might be a good idea to pick at least 1-2 mastery levels.

Helfrog hasn't really changed with legions. The best option would probably be to spam maulerfiends and a helbrute alpha for 4++. Or just an extra fiend. It's gona be ok vs some lists and as support for your biker/spawn deathstars. And it's gona fail vs other lists - especially eldar and spess wuffs. Oh, and mage heavy. Technomancy destroys vehicles dead.

Roknar wrote:I dunno about that being a typo ^^
hellfrogs
With the upcoming DG release that might make for an interesting conversion project

Ahahaha hmm maybe I could do a nice maulerfiend frog! I keep hearing about this up and coming DG release.... Could anyone expand? Or is that the sum of the info currently? Up and coming. Classic GW speak.

koooaei wrote:

Plague colony is indeed cheaper but you lack utility that the warband provides. Don't forget that with all the death guard bonuses, regular mon csm are as durable as plague marines for 6 pts cheaper. Yep, plagues can have 2 specials but an extra plazma or melta on a marine dude is nothing to write home about. Whereas you can have a bunch of relentless havoks that are tough as Nurgle gak. Or bikers tough as Nurgle gak. Or...basically everything is tough as Nurgle gak - even warp talons don't look that bad. I mean they do look like melted poo but they're becoming ok crunch-wise. +1 T and buffed up fnp with re-rolling ones is a game-changer. You're coming dangerously close to necron level of durability. As for elite slots in the warband, yeah, you could run a helbrute but i'd rather just take min termies with combi-plazmas. They're somewhat better even when footslogging.

DP is decent. Increased resilience with free fnp is good and will also help vs perils once in a while. It might be a good idea to pick at least 1-2 mastery levels.

Helfrog hasn't really changed with legions. The best option would probably be to spam maulerfiends and a helbrute alpha for 4++. Or just an extra fiend. It's gona be ok vs some lists and as support for your biker/spawn deathstars. And it's gona fail vs other lists - especially eldar and spess wuffs. Oh, and mage heavy. Technomancy destroys vehicles dead.

Yeh that's what I thought when I started to look at the warband. It's got decent unit spread and choice, and your not shoe horned into anything too bad. I like the idea of relentless havoc's, bikes are always cool and you dont have to take too many csm troop units.

My only 1 issue is.... Warband = less helbrutes

Gah! It's so annoying. I want walkers that shoot! And sadly most of those this edition just seem a little lack luster. Helbrutes are ok, but forgefiends are what I wanted, and they appear to be rather overcosted. I will magnetise, and hope in the future Ed they get more viable. On another thought? How about kakophoni + Sonic dreads? Ah balls. Sonic dreads wouldn't benefit from the decurion stuff. CURSE YOU GW FOR NEVER INTEGRATING ALL YA SH*T IN THE SAME PLACES!!! Double firing blastmasters with increased strength would have been sweeeeeeeeet.

You can have 3 helbrutes in a warband. They'll get obsec and stealth vs shots coming >18" away cause of dg decurion bonuses. But havoks are significantly more useful point-for-point imo. I've tried out 5 havoks with 4 ac and a rhino. You can easilly go for lazcannons cause of added rhino's mobility they can get around opponent's cover more effectively.

Walkers are still in a tough spot unless you're playing with restrictions - we're waiting for 8-th to see some improvements in this department.

Anywayz, helbrutes have gotten +2 attacks like all the other dreads (except for ork ones cause screw orks) so, leaving them with a fist might be more compelling.

DG Havocs do look amaze, being able to redeploy into a decent LOS point via a Rhino and climb upstairs every turn whilst still firing at full BS is fantastic.

I'm getting a load of CSM infantry painted up to try WB horde. I already have a Palanquin Summoner, who I'm thinking about putting in a Bolter blob with two Flamers and combi-Flamer. Between his Blight Grenades and their Wall of Death, they look like a pretty effective close range firefight/herding unit. I'm thinking about a second blob with Melta and CCW? One thing I'm not sure about it if I should get Fearless Banners or bunch them up a bit with a DA in one of them for Zealot bubble. DA can also take Baleful Icon, which looks incredible for a Fearless firefight unit. This would also enable Marks and their accompanying Banners, though in total this would add a Land Raider to their price...

WE are a lot of fun
Run a maelstrom of gore with favoured of chaos and you have first turn charges. Lots of movement+lots of attacks on turn 1
I recently played against a shoots ultramarine army and got 6 first turn charges, destroying everything after red rain.

I repeat that we are a lot of fun


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Running a silly dp with favoured of chaos works.
Lots of boons& hope for that warlord trait

World Eaters are definitely a sleeper competitive wise. 2D6 of free movement is just too good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
World Eaters are definitely a sleeper competitive wise. 2D6 of free movement is just too good.

But is a Maelstrom of Gore better than a Chaos Warband? My instinct tells me no, but at the same time, lots of Berzerkers charging in on turn 1 seems like a barrel of laughs! Also, is Kharn worth getting? I think he'd be fun, but I'm not sure he's all that great for his points.

One problem I see for WE is that a clever opponent can counter that turn 1 charge by deploying at the back of his deployment zone. This is not easy to do with Dawn of War deployment, but Hammer and Anvil would not be good for WE. At all. Also, null deployment armies could be a real problem for much the same reason. I can really see WE being a very rock-paper-scissors army, as they would dominate some armies and builds, but really struggle against others.

Goodbyechaos legion tactica. You were good while you lasted.

Chaos legions now listed as factions are thousand sons and death guard. I worry for the other legions.

( and kdk)