Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I'm inclined to agree, if it's a straight choice between them. But the ability to fill out a mandatory troop choice with a tank hunting obsec 6+fnp free VOTLw oblit, sure feels worth 20pts over cultists.

The Obiterator might do more at range but it won't camp am objective better so long as there's even a minimal amount of cover to use for the Cultists.

It can create a more interesting MSU list though. I'm working on a second draft of the Alpha Legion and Death Guard list.

EC bike star seems pretty good, in theory I got lucky in my last game and got the +1FNP warlord trait, the 3+/4++ with 3+ feel no pain is amazingly tanky.

Has anyone attempted, a EC bike star with multiple characters ?

It doesn't seem as good as a Nurgle one. Nurgle is the best overall mark anyway and with them you won't get your Icon sniped our.

pepsuber wrote:
I know a guy that plays AM, and he was not happy at how IW is arguable better than AM now in the artillery department with their re rolls for ordinance

sure but CSMs have crap for ordinance, they have demolishers, which are too short ranged to be used as artillery, and defliers, which are over priced

BrianDavion wrote:

pepsuber wrote:
I know a guy that plays AM, and he was not happy at how IW is arguable better than AM now in the artillery department with their re rolls for ordinance

sure but CSMs have crap for ordinance, they have demolishers, which are too short ranged to be used as artillery, and defliers, which are over priced

The main thing you'll see IW players using for ranged ordinance will be the Wall of Martyr weapons battery upgraded to battle cannons...

 aka_mythos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pepsuber wrote:
I know a guy that plays AM, and he was not happy at how IW is arguable better than AM now in the artillery department with their re rolls for ordinance

sure but CSMs have crap for ordinance, they have demolishers, which are too short ranged to be used as artillery, and defliers, which are over priced

The main thing you'll see IW players using for ranged ordinance will be the Wall of Martyr weapons battery upgraded to battle cannons...

They're a decent value with the Iron Warriors benefits actually.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pepsuber wrote:
I know a guy that plays AM, and he was not happy at how IW is arguable better than AM now in the artillery department with their re rolls for ordinance

sure but CSMs have crap for ordinance, they have demolishers, which are too short ranged to be used as artillery, and defliers, which are over priced

The main thing you'll see IW players using for ranged ordinance will be the Wall of Martyr weapons battery upgraded to battle cannons...

They're a decent value with the Iron Warriors benefits actually.

They target the closest unit. Even a defiler is better simply because you're the one shooting it - and not your opponent.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pepsuber wrote:
I know a guy that plays AM, and he was not happy at how IW is arguable better than AM now in the artillery department with their re rolls for ordinance

sure but CSMs have crap for ordinance, they have demolishers, which are too short ranged to be used as artillery, and defliers, which are over priced

The main thing you'll see IW players using for ranged ordinance will be the Wall of Martyr weapons battery upgraded to battle cannons...

They're a decent value with the Iron Warriors benefits actually.

They target the closest unit. Even a defiler is better simply because you're the one shooting it - and not your opponent.

So? 2 of those is still a better value than a Defiler.

What happens when the closest unit is invisible or locked in combat?

Not a valid target, so pick the next nearest one.

hmm, can't find the requirement to fire at the closest enemy. They might have removed it. So, if it's just an operatable bs2 battlecannon, it's not too bad for 85 pts on an av14 chassis

(Ofc if the nearest target has a 2++ rerollable your outta luck)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
hmm, can't find the requirement to fire at the closest enemy. They might have removed it. So, if it's just an operatable bs2 battlecannon, it's not too bad for 85 pts on an av14 chassis

That's interesting, is that in the new planetary onslaught book?

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
hmm, can't find the requirement to fire at the closest enemy. They might have removed it. So, if it's just an operatable bs2 battlecannon, it's not too bad for 85 pts on an av14 chassis

That's interesting, is that in the new planetary onslaught book?

That's in battlescribe, so it can be a mistake.

 koooaei wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
hmm, can't find the requirement to fire at the closest enemy. They might have removed it. So, if it's just an operatable bs2 battlecannon, it's not too bad for 85 pts on an av14 chassis

That's interesting, is that in the new planetary onslaught book?

That's in battlescribe, so it can be a mistake.

Its in the Automated Fire rules in the BRB

Oh, found it - you're forced to fire at the closest enemy unit within range and line of sight. Means that any invisible or flying enemy unit would invalidate the weapon. Also, what happens if the closest enemy unit is locked in combat - seems that you don't get to fire either.

Not great for 85 pts. Even if you get to fire - it's still just a battlecannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the re-roll affect primary weapons? They're ordinance, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anywayz, i can't remember a game where a >100 pt fortification didn't blow up 1-2 turn.

How well the fortifications perform is going to depend on the rest of the army and whether it can act as enough of a threat to draw immediate fire.

People also forget that void shields are always an upgrade option for fortifications... though only cost effective on some of the larger fortifications.

Just one void shield. Also, what happens when, for example, a squad of scat bikes deals 5 hullpoints to a void shield on an av14 fortification? Do they carry over? Do they get lost? Does he have to roll separately?

 koooaei wrote:
Just one void shield. Also, what happens when, for example, a squad of scat bikes deals 5 hullpoints to a void shield on an av14 fortification? Do they carry over? Do they get lost? Does he have to roll separately?

A squad of Scat bikes are doing ONE shooting attack at the void shield, so they could do 12+ HPs and only drop 1 shield. Further HITs must come from further shooting attacks, like if the Windriders had mixed weapons, thus requiring the Scatter lasers & Shuricannons to be rolled separately.
The way the rule is worded 1 entire shooting attack (not individual hits) is absorbed per shield.

The only issue that is up for debate is what is considered a "shooting attack". Is it each hit, each weapon, or all weapons in a weapon group?
I am in the "weapon group" camp, RAW, but I can see the logic of resolving 'hits' individually and will usually play it this way in casual games

-

You'd roll them one at a time, and when you get a glancing or penetrating hit on the shield you'd move onto the building's AV. Most fortifications are AV13 plus and immune to scatter lasers...

Nurglitch wrote:
You'd roll them one at a time, and when you get a glancing or penetrating hit on the shield you'd move onto the building's AV. Most fortifications are AV13 plus and immune to scatter lasers...

That's odd. My rulebook only mentions rolling one at a time for vehicle squadrons. In all other cases (like rolling against void shields which is NOT a vehicle squadron) it says to roll all pools at the same time. I must have a different print than your book.

Sarcasm aside, I agree that what you are suggesting is logical and HIWPI in casual games. I am merely trying to make the point that rolling one at a time is not RAW in the case of the VSG.
You resolve all rolls to penetrate or glance against each shield at once, discarding any overflow. Further hits from other shooting attacks may then hit the intended target (or another shield)

This actually make perfect sense from a fluff perspective as all the shots would hit the shield simultaneously, rather the 1 by 1 until the shield collapses.

-

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills trying to make the Butcherhorde work. I can't decide which formation works best overall as they both have some annoying aspects to them.

Chaos Warband

Pros: Objective Secured, variety of units, CSM/Bikes/Raptors > Berzerkers, 2D6 pre-game move for fast units = first turn charge easily, extra mutation rolls and choices

Cons: Terminator tax, gets expensive fast, pretty much becomes your army, no real focus on any particular unit, minimal fast units limiting first turn charges

Maelstrom of Gore

Pros: Fleet, +3 charge distance, Red Rain, relatively cheap if you MSU allowing more Aux formations, turn one charges encouraged

Cons: 4 units of Berzerkers minimum (the other cult formations are 3 units min, so wtf happened), Berzerkers don't benefit as much as other units in World Eaters, can get expensive quick if you want bigger units, no objective secured, if they don't get into combat turn one they will be removed, too expensive and too weak to use as escorts

Every Chaos Warband I make leaves little room for any Aux ranged formations of value, and every Maelstrom of Gore I make feel lacking in power and just there to unlock the fast Aux formations that make up the actual army. It's pretty discouraging how nothing feels like it'll work well. Last game I ran a Warband with a MoG and the Berzerkers did nothing while the Bikes and Talisman Termies and Deamon Prince slammed into the enemy lines. There's too much gak in the way for the zerkers to get there that first turn, meanwhile I want an army of fast units that I am not allowed to spam in the Warband. It just feels like they made the World Eater detachment with some future formations or units in mind.

The Warband is easily better. Yeah the bonus to charges is good, but you can't win ghetto objective game against any other army otherwise, and you aren't forced into a Berserker Marine tax.

also bezerker's are pretty bleh in a World eater force now as the bulk of what diffrentiates Zerkers from CSMs is automaticly given to all units with VTLW. I did some costing and Zerkers basicly get +1 WS for 20 points

The formation bonuses for Maelstrom of Gore have the potential to offset the extra points for the Berzerkers. The problem is all the random chance involved screws it all up. If you flub your 2D6 pre-game move you're screwed, if you flub your charge you're screwed, if they deploy a few inches deep into their deployment zone you're screwed. Meanwhile all fast units need is a slight boost from the 2D6 move and they're making their charges without fail. Zerkers need a point reduction or a movement boost.

You're all right though, if you want a Butcherhorde then you are taking a warband.

I'm thinking of doing AL because the WB (fav colour scheme) tactics seem meh to me and I don't like their playstyle. I have a few questions if someone wouldn't mind answering.

Is AL better than Night Lords?

What is the best way to run AL?

CAD or Decurion?

Is 2x 20 cultists and 2x MSU Chosen 1 meltas 1 plasmas good for troops?

CAD is excellent. The special weapon spam with Infiltrate is unreal, and with the removal of servo skulls for Inquisitors in Imperial Agents, you can do so much more with them.

Tried out a Khorne termie deathstar with a talisman lord and alpha legion apostle with mindveil. Played vs war convocation. Won the game (barely). Liked the termies. They still need mages to survive but this game terrain and deployment helped. Also, a lucky ini steal so that i could get away from grav. they one-shot a bunch of ruststalkers and than chainfisted a knight to death. Lost a number of termies to a battlecannon and ruststalker's mellee. Khornate termies do seem like a neat deathstar option if you're not against bestfriending with mages.

Was plesently supprised by the pox hive last night:

Put it on two units of 20 cultists from a sorcerer, he got the WL trait that does d6 4+ poison hits in CC to all units within 7" (this is actually a pretty sweet trait!) and the poison 4+ blessing to attacks power or units in combat...

literally held up my mates 9 adeptus custodes all game XD

I like the Warband for my World Eaters since i want to field most of the units it requires anyway.

The Terminator/Chosen tax is abit annoying though, although I've found that with the 2D6 move, if you get to go first, a min-sized units of Chosen with some special weapons will usually end up within good range, even flamer-range.
(Same goes for Havocs with some special weapons of course).

If you run it min-sized (Chaos Lord, 2x5 CSM's, 1x5 Chosen or 1x3 Terminators, 1x5 Bikes or 1x5 Raptors and 1x5 Havocs or a Helbrute), it will only cost around 600 points, giving you plenty of points if you're playing 1500 or more.

andysonic1 wrote:Cons: 4 units of Berzerkers minimum (the other cult formations are 3 units min, so wtf happened),

Look at the points and not the number of units.

4 units of 5 Berzerkers is 420 points.

The min pointcost of a Thousand Sons War Cabal (2 naked Sorcerer with MoT, 5 Rubrics, 5 Occult Termies) is 550 points.

Emperors Children and Death Guard can get away quite cheap though.

Emp children can field a decurion of noize marines in a 750 game like no big deal. Will get 3 rhinos and some spawns for lord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, can you confirm that havoc launcher is s5 now? Does it still cost 12 pts?