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Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 Chippen wrote:

10 Warriors, one with Splinter Cannon, in a Raider with Nightshields and Splinter Racks. comes to 180 total. That alone is what, up to 15 Twinlinked poison shots?

Sure. But its also 10 wounds. My unit is not. it wont win a fight with true assault troops. Mine will. i will fire AND be able to assault. They will not. this is a very significant level of difference in capability. it also does something the Warriors dont do: stops the enemy from continuing to fire. it also doesnt allow them to affect a vehicle in the least outside of their Raider itself having a Dark Lance perhaps? This comparison probably isn;t a good one..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Chippen wrote:


For another 120 I have a couple choices. I can do 5 Scourge with either Haywire Blasters or Heat Lances. That gives me the 15 Twinlinked poison shots from above with 3 more poison shots from the Shardcarbine, and then either 4 Haywire or Heat Lance shots.


Are you just adding five Scourges to the list, with the idea you will... total 300 points or something? Look if you are taking Scourges you are hunting tanks with it. I think its a fine idea. but you need a single unit that is better tyhan the 225 i spent on this one.

in your scenario here you're not comparing one unit with another. you're getting into entire army building. Lol.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Chippen wrote:

Since you have a hardon for close combat, how about some Reavers? 83 points gets me 3x Reavers, one an Arena Champion, one with a Heat Lance, and one with Cluster Caltrops for D6 Hammer of Wrath. I can take two of those units, plus a unit of either Scourge or the Venom crew, and have points to spare.


A legitimate suggestion. I own Reavers and could do what you are saying. Reavers on their own are okay. they replace the Raider hull points with their own girth, essentially and then try to mess things up and that is a way more relevant suggestion than these others. However I would point out to you that they lack a good leadership, they dont cause fear, they are not STR 5 and in the end that really really matters. hammer of Wrath is only as good as the number of times you land it of course. i dont hate that suggestion but i am also not sure its actually better. its not terrible though.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/01/12 21:48:25


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




NC, USA

How many times are you going to change your mind on the Raider? My original comment that started this whole discussion was the absence of the Raider for your footslogging 225 pt Court. Then you told me they always had a Raider, which is fine, and what I based my comparison on. Now you want to take it out of the comparison again because you think it helps you by giving me fewer points to work with :lol:

Also if you were going to give the court a Raider, why would it not be a dedicated transport? You really want to take up a Fast Attack slot for that?

But you know what? feth it, I'll keep kicking at your shifting goalposts.

For 225 points now? Alright.

Same as before - Choose either Scourge with Heat Lances, or the Venom Crew. 120.

With the last 95, take some Reavers. 89 points of that will get you a Arena Champion and 3 additional Reavers, one with a Cluster Caltrop. Or come in under the points by cutting one Reaver and giving the other a Heat Lance or Blaster.

But now compared to your footslogging Court, my choices are actually doing something before turn 3.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 Chippen wrote:

On top of all that, your eggs are all in one basket - forget the rest of the list, if your opponent wants to remove 300 points from the table, all he has to do is knock down the Raider ASAP. That leaves your court stranded, and even though Sslyth have decent shooting, half the reason you love them so much is the assault capability, which they just lost. It completely loses the MSU principle, which DE rely on HEAVILY due to the fragile nature of our units. I will grant you that with smart deployment and movement, you can increase the chances of the Raider getting the units there, but it's a 300 point gamble.


So its your opinion that i would... Not be able to distance my Raider properly? the same likelihood of this is the likelihood that the Raider with Warriors gets popped so i dont see a real distinct difference other than how well the General premeasures.

I cant worry about what will or wont die. The enemy paid points for their army and they are no dummy. they are going to do everything they can to kill me and I'm not sure I would put a lot of angst on that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Chippen wrote:
How many times are you going to change your mind on the Raider?.


I havent. You have inextricably linked them in your mind as the same expenditure butthey are not. That was my point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/12 22:05:51


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




This is a rather interesting thread. I have to confess that I'm really surprised there's so much debate regarding the Voidraven. That's a unit that got relegated to the trash heap almost immediately after the codex's release for good reason. Making your Ravager fly for 40pts is not exactly a bargain.

I've always like the Court of the Archon. It has some really nice units in it to play with. If you set it up like Jancoran apparently does, you're in great shape to deal with a variety of threats. I agree that you are definitely putting a lot of faith in your Raider, though. A unit that expensive had better damn well be able to get where it needs to be reliably, and that simply isn't the case when you're rolling in a 10/10/10 vehicle. You may be able to flat-out somewhere near your opponent, but you can depend on your Court's Raider being the first to go down. Its fragile contents likely won't be far behind.I'd probably chop it in half and run 2 separate HQs in Raiders so you don't get hosed when your ride pops - threat saturation and all. (Actually, I'd scrap the whole idea and run Coven Grotesques, but whatever.)
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 Chippen wrote:

Same as before - Choose either Scourge with Heat Lances, or the Venom Crew. 120.

With the last 95, take some Reavers. 89 points of that will get you a Arena Champion and 3 additional Reavers, one with a Cluster Caltrop. Or come in under the points by cutting one Reaver and giving the other a Heat Lance or Blaster.

But now compared to your footslogging Court, my choices are actually doing something before turn 3.


I'm not taking a foot slogging court as we have said on multiple occasions now. The enemy gets a menu in every game. They are given the choice to either kill a Grotesque Raider or two, an incubi Raider, a Court of the Archon Raider, or perhaps some Obsec Venoms with scoring units in them or perhaps the Ravagers, Beastmasters or (later) Voidraven Bomber. Their choice.

Unfortunately... if i go first, i will be within 6-12" of them when they make this choice. Not much of a choice. At this point I dont actuially care what they shoot at. Pretty much literally doesnt matter. It's all bad for them.

If I go second, I will be 42.1 inches away in all likelihood (for obvious reasons) if they have 36" weapons (plus movement).

in the latter case where i go second, they will have their 48" range guns to use. Lets face it, there are some. That's all they get. Perhaps not even those, since i will know they are there going second and will arrange myself accordingly. Terrain is too hard to imagine but you and I can take it as read that I know how to premeasure and obscure things. So in any event, I am getting very little fire if I go second and i can afford to lay back that far because Im jetting 36" on my turn over the top of the bubblewrap, when I choose.. Take it a little further. Lets assume they are an aggressive in my face army, and they enjoy mixing it up also. Pods everywhere or Chaos Raptor Talons etc... in that case, have I not chosen my units wisely? Surely I have, since they brought melee and lo and behold i am more than capable of handling that problem with shooting to soften them, overwatch to repel them and then melee to finish them So what is going to happen is they will take their shots if they jump me, i will jink and it will take them a couple units to get one down and the others have new choices: more transports or try and end a unit. The unit is now behind cover which is cool. FnP perhaps. Or they could pay attention to the 32 wound unit of BeastMasters that is bubble wrapping me... Dont forget them. They are kind of relevant don't you agree?

The point here is I'm well prepared if they come for me, and Im not taking a rain of death in turn one regardless. my most exposed unit is the Beastmasters and it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to target that as it is closer.

Going back to going turn one, My plan is supremely basic: Dont screw up on deployment and then hit the pedal to the metal. I know right? Sounds like anyone can do it. they can. in round two when the bomber we hope arrives, it can join in with the Ravagers and such to blow up stuff and anyone that got a little too close. as close line defense its hard to beat for all the previously aforementioned reasons.

Now i cannot promise that no Raider dies and that no bad things will happen. This is war. I can just say that i dont share your LEVEL of concern over it.




Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

Martel has a point.

I play SW and Deldar, and my grey hunters (not a 'meta' unit) have done a hell of a lot more than some of the half melee units (wyches, wracks. Not good units, but you get my point).

TWC and Wulfen are absolutely insane, and have completely killed crazy amounts of stuff (2 wulfen with claws killed draigo in the first round of attack, destroying some really hardcore stuff). If I could take Wulfen as DE, they'd replace my grotesquerie. However, the melee units we have are some of our comparatively best units (grots, arguable incubi, reavers)

On the topic, there seems to be a few units that are good when played correctly, and with good threat saturation.

two questions to change the topic from this moot (and frankly, somewhat petty) arguing (absolutely no offense intended. But I just try to avoid when threads degenerate into arguments)

How does everybody play against heavy ignores cover armies? (tau, and EC come to mind). I am thinking pray for turn one and get to your enemy's face turn 1, then they get basically one turn of shooting before they are tied up or preoccupied with some more important things.

How do you equip beastpacks? I am thinking a few Kyhmeara (however you spell it) to tank with Daemon, and then enough Clawed Fiends for T7 and a few razorwings to taste. Thoughs?

   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

MilkmanAl wrote:
This is a rather interesting thread. I have to confess that I'm really surprised there's so much debate regarding the Voidraven. That's a unit that got relegated to the trash heap almost immediately after the codex's release for good reason. Making your Ravager fly for 40pts is not exactly a bargain.

I've always like the Court of the Archon. It has some really nice units in it to play with. If you set it up like Jancoran apparently does, you're in great shape to deal with a variety of threats. I agree that you are definitely putting a lot of faith in your Raider, though. A unit that expensive had better damn well be able to get where it needs to be reliably, and that simply isn't the case when you're rolling in a 10/10/10 vehicle. You may be able to flat-out somewhere near your opponent, but you can depend on your Court's Raider being the first to go down. Its fragile contents likely won't be far behind.I'd probably chop it in half and run 2 separate HQs in Raiders so you don't get hosed when your ride pops - threat saturation and all. (Actually, I'd scrap the whole idea and run Coven Grotesques, but whatever.)


Part of the plan is to lose some Raiders. it's going to happen. The wasted fire they will ablate and the jinks help but whose kidding anyone here? They are more annoying to kill than the internet generally allows for BUT how many battles have you really fought and lost nothing? The end result is the thing. Once you get over that and stop sphinctering up like its the end of the world, you look at it more objectively and say "position is the game I am playing and no other"

I have shooting but its there just to ease me into the underbelly of the enemy. Kill the rhinos or what have you to the extent necessary kill the anti-air if its there and get in there and cause some problems.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Eldar and Tau fight me all the time and lose nothing. Just sayin'.

The Voidraven is part of his saturation scheme. Is it Wraithknight good? No. It does what he needs it to. I personally think reserves are the devil, but being a marine player, my dice are trained to roll 1-2. I've actually scored a lot of victories against opponents who reserved when they didn't have to and failed to have their units arrive in time to contribute.

But there is no way I'm giving the archon court the same respect as TWC or Wulfen. No way. A unit of TWC can legitimately table my entire list in the right conditions.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/12 23:40:15


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Martel has a point.

I play SW and Deldar, and my grey hunters (not a 'meta' unit) have done a hell of a lot more than some of the half melee units (wyches, wracks. Not good units, but you get my point).

TWC and Wulfen are absolutely insane, and have completely killed crazy amounts of stuff (2 wulfen with claws killed draigo in the first round of attack, destroying some really hardcore stuff). If I could take Wulfen as DE, they'd replace my grotesquerie. However, the melee units we have are some of our comparatively best units (grots, arguable incubi, reavers)

On the topic, there seems to be a few units that are good when played correctly, and with good threat saturation.

two questions to change the topic from this moot (and frankly, somewhat petty) arguing (absolutely no offense intended. But I just try to avoid when threads degenerate into arguments)

How does everybody play against heavy ignores cover armies? (tau, and EC come to mind). I am thinking pray for turn one and get to your enemy's face turn 1, then they get basically one turn of shooting before they are tied up or preoccupied with some more important things.

How do you equip beastpacks? I am thinking a few Kyhmeara (however you spell it) to tank with Daemon, and then enough Clawed Fiends for T7 and a few razorwings to taste. Thoughs?


Well obviously the same tactics apply to fighting Tau here.

My Beastpack is 4 Clawed Fiends, 4 Razorwing Flocks, 3 Dawgs of doom and a BeastMaster which I actually put an Agonizer on.

I have fought with myself over this last choice because it is not a cheap upgrade and its going on a guy with 2 attacks on the charge. The problem is, the BeastPack is not strong on Leadership at all and one extra wound can really make a difference, especially when you tangle with the tougher stuff (T5 Raptors or Bikers and so on). Theres a lot of Rending and such but its still STR 3 birdies so against T5 thats pretty much all you're doing with the birdies. I absolutely understand if someone did not take that upgrade and you wouldn't have to go on very long about it for me to agree with you. I've gotten beaten by 1 wound a few times though and missed that Ld check enough times that I just feel like i need the added assurance for the unit. When I looked around my list for what I might OTHERWISE spend 25 points on, there were some minor tweaks I could make but none that meant anything to my tactics. I could add some artifacts to the Haemonculous but he is not often meaningful in combat when hes joined to the monsters he is and then you're kind of leaving your beastpack without the assurance. So at some point you kind of waffle a bit on doing more with the haemonculous, but he would be the choice for more upgrades. Of course they would yield more for him than the Agonizer, but not in the global sense of wanting to keep this particular unit fighting. No argument. But getting 1-2 more kills with it (usually one) is a nice bit of security on subsequent rounds. Combats get that close when you face real assault units and in particular the T5 or better ones are the real concern. Clawed Fiends do compensate but armor is armor. FnP isn't uncommon. So its a hedge.

The REAL answer of course is an autarch or Farseer with the Shard of Anaris. But that opens an entirely different can of worms as such things go. At that point you're embracing serious changes to the list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Eldar and Tau fight me all the time and lose nothing. Just sayin'.

The Voidraven is part of his saturation scheme. Is it Wraithknight good? No. It does what he needs it to. I personally think reserves are the devil, but being a marine player, my dice are trained to roll 1-2. I've actually scored a lot of victories against opponents who reserved when they didn't have to and failed to have their units arrive in time to contribute.

But there is no way I'm giving the archon court the same respect as TWC or Wulfen. No way. A unit of TWC can legitimately table my entire list in the right conditions.


I dont think you need to rerspect the Court of the Archon as much. TH/SS TWC are beastly to kill and Wulfen are straight broken. Lol. You better shoot them as your plan A, B and C because assaulting them is kinda whatcha do when you dont have a choice. But i have killed them with the Court. its just a ginsu fest and I have little left afterwards if at all. TH/SS Wulfen are pretty awesome.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/12 23:53:08


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




" TH/SS TWC are beastly to kill and Wulfen are straight broken. "

Well, we 100% agree on that. BA shooting can't handle either, really. DE have poison, but Wulfen are rocking layered saves. The poison is better vs the TWC, but they'll likely have a 2+ IC tank in the front.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/12 23:50:45


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Martel732 wrote:
" TH/SS TWC are beastly to kill and Wulfen are straight broken. "

Well, we 100% agree on that. BA shooting can't handle either, really. DE have poison, but Wulfen are rocking layered saves. The poison is better vs the TWC, but they'll likely have a 2+ IC tank in the front.


Wulfen are an issue. 3+ invuls all day long, 2 wounds each. Sure wish we had some STR 8 AP 2 we could drop on them... My answer was to spread out and let him come to me and then skidoodle or trap him. it worked. And armies like that are real points intensive and elite so they kill what they want when they want but attrition hurts them and position OFTEN hurts them (TWC being the obvious exception).

But knowing that, you can always just do the old "Feed and run" thing. Dark Eldar are so fast they can get there and do it. Pretty cool.


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




So why do you think this fails for BA? BA are very comparable to DE in many ways. I guess my stuff costs more.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




NC, USA

@Jancoran Are there two people using your account, are you schizophrenic, or just trolling me? You do not get to include a dedicated transport as part of a unit to claim they're not footslogging, then in the next post claim the transport is not part of the unit's cost and not part of the unit itself, therefore arguing I should ignore the points value when comparing it to other things. The Raider is a dedicated transport for your Court, you use it to get them across the board to do their thing. If you're not gonna do that, they're gonna hoof it.

Also, my whole point was that for the points you spend on the Court, you can get other units, plural, that are more effective. I never claimed a single unit (although I'd argue a Dark Artisan for a few points more is better still) would be compared, nor should I have - the whole idea of the point system is that it allows you to make such comparisons instead of being stuck unit to unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gummyofallbears wrote:

How does everybody play against heavy ignores cover armies? (tau, and EC come to mind). I am thinking pray for turn one and get to your enemy's face turn 1, then they get basically one turn of shooting before they are tied up or preoccupied with some more important things.

How do you equip beastpacks? I am thinking a few Kyhmeara (however you spell it) to tank with Daemon, and then enough Clawed Fiends for T7 and a few razorwings to taste. Thoughs?


Take out the things that let them ignore cover. Don't fight fair, take your entire army and fight 1/3 to 1/2 of the opponent's army. It can be done through clever deployment and the repositioning that our vehicles are capable of.

As for Beastpacks, I'm of the opinion that it depends on your list - you can have a big "can handle anything" type of unit, but it gets expensive quick, so I always prefer to specialize. Each of the Beasts are good for different things, so go with a smaller unit of one type for a specific purpose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 00:43:45


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 Chippen wrote:
@Jancoran Are there two people using your account, are you schizophrenic, or just trolling me? You do not get to include a dedicated transport as part of a unit to claim they're not footslogging, then in the next post claim the transport is not part of the unit's cost and not part of the unit itself, therefore arguing I should ignore the points value when comparing it to other things. The Raider is a dedicated transport for your Court, you use it to get them across the board to do their thing. If you're not gonna do that, they're gonna hoof it.

Also, my whole point was that for the points you spend on the Court, you can get other units, plural, that are more effective. I never claimed a single unit (although I'd argue a Dark Artisan for a few points more is better still) would be compared, nor should I have - the whole idea of the point system is that it allows you to make such comparisons instead of being stuck unit to unit.
.


I have answered your every point. Point by point, to make sure you're clear that I am. Impugning me is not going to help you. Suggesting I am trolling you also isnt helping you.

You are for whatever reason of the opinion that the Transport isn't a second unit. I'm sorry you feel that way. We don't agree. As you know they can and are taken as their own Fast Attacks for example, and they can act independentlyand often do. Dedicated transport is simply a function of whether you bought it separately or you didn't. They probably only play a part in the units succes for one round but may be there for six, killing vehicles on their own!

The unit at 225 delivers. That I often want to deliver it quickly to the front via the Raider is true. But if the enemy comes to me I don't need to. Suggesting that I must use the transport as some sort of extension of me simply isn't the case other than one round in the game. Its got a Dark Lance so it is hardly a waste of space and it can blockade as well.

This is a minor quibble that you are having, and I don't want it to derail what is otherwise productive tactical discussion by continuing to explain this so i am explaiing it now. We don't agree that you "add" the cost of the Raider to the unit because it may not even use it or uses it sparingly. The Raider, as in my game against the Space Wolves can be put to better use at times simply as an empty blocker that saved more expensive units lives.

YOUR examples included Warriors with a raider. Well... the Raider being equal we're REALLY talking about Warriors vs the Court. As an example. So lets not skew things, and lets talk about the unit YOU have a strong opinion about. The Raider would be more important to your Warriors than it is to mine for longer as an example of how difficult it is to sit here and include it in the equation of the unit itself.

Here is a question: do you own these models and have you used them as I described? It sounds definitively like you have not. So instead of trying to prove someone wrong who has already succeeded using it (which seems an odd thing to do), why don't you just try it and see how your mind wraps itself around the possibilities. Why not? You're hearing from me that it works, I think I am pretty good at the game and it's just possible I'm actually giving you usable advice. Don't make winning an internet tiff be a reason not to explore new things.

Wins and losses wont be exclusively because you did or didnt use the Court of the Archon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 05:59:41


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

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Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
" TH/SS TWC are beastly to kill and Wulfen are straight broken. "

Well, we 100% agree on that. BA shooting can't handle either, really. DE have poison, but Wulfen are rocking layered saves. The poison is better vs the TWC, but they'll likely have a 2+ IC tank in the front.


Wulfen are an issue. 3+ invuls all day long, 2 wounds each. Sure wish we had some STR 8 AP 2 we could drop on them... My answer was to spread out and let him come to me and then skidoodle or trap him. it worked. And armies like that are real points intensive and elite so they kill what they want when they want but attrition hurts them and position OFTEN hurts them (TWC being the obvious exception).

But knowing that, you can always just do the old "Feed and run" thing. Dark Eldar are so fast they can get there and do it. Pretty cool.



Honestly this is why i want to use the void raven with possibly dark scythes vs wulfen. There aren't many answers to wulfen and while i'm forcing myself down a narrow path just to deal with wulfen there are other units it can hurt a lot too (mega nobz, termies and multi wound toughness 4 FnP units). It's also making me consider getting a 2nd void raven bomber but they are expensive in points and in cash and sometimes the one by itself doesn't net enough kills to make it worth it. It really depends as sometimes it's good (like against the orks) and many times it just doesn't kill enough for its points even if it tends to survive because enemies must snap shoot it.

Also as far as reserves go i will vouch for not having many reserves. I don't even think more than 2-3 reserves is a good choice. In fact 3 might be too many. This is coming from me having the heat lance scourge with an archon with a webway portal and a void raven coming in.

---------

In other news i'm thinking in ways perhaps taking scourge was a mistake at least to an extent. Sure they can move 12" and still use blasters and they have what i consider baby terminator armor (4+ 6++) but they still fail DT sometimes and most of their specialty weapons aren't so hot anymore. Blasters are alright, haywire usually sucks if you don't face a lot of vehicles, heat lance is good sometimes (though i remember at least a couple critical fails when they should've penn'd no problem and didn't), shredder is garbage (though if it was a template or large blast it'd be great or good), splinter cannons are best done on venoms anyway which can move 12" can still fire and take up less slots, dark lances might be ok but would probably do better on a vehicle that can move and still shoot just fine and shardcarbines though fun take up a fast attack choice that might be better used for AT (also shardcarbines though assault weapons are only 18"). It's rather a shame too as scourge can take up to 4 heavy weapons per squad without needing more squad members so if they could stay in cover with say dark lances it might actually be alright.

I'm considering trueborn more and more. I just want to get that transport option for my grotesques already and then i may focus on that next (if the new dark eldar specialist game doesn't steal my interest).

I also might want another void raven but i'm unsure i should drop the 80 USD to get something that may prove too many points for what i need it for. I have been considering dropping the ravagers entirely however so that might free up points for such an endeavor esp. considering they take up the heavy support slots but without void lances and dissie ravagers my anti-air would suffer (should i even fight it and worry which i usually won't). That said Coven heavy support units may do what i need better in that slot.

Finally grabbing some more reaver jetbikes sounds good. Bikes with heat lances can deal with armor somewhat and can jink if things don't work out so hot. If an enemy tries to have 3+ cover save leman russ tanks then i can just assault the bikes into them and hit their rear armor with cluster caltrops until they go down (provided they don't get lit up by those stupid wyverns). I don't think i'd see much armor aside from that unless it's a super heavy in which case i might be in trouble but it should take up enough points that it would be a sizable chunk of the enemy army.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/13 07:07:44


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Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
" TH/SS TWC are beastly to kill and Wulfen are straight broken. "

Well, we 100% agree on that. BA shooting can't handle either, really. DE have poison, but Wulfen are rocking layered saves. The poison is better vs the TWC, but they'll likely have a 2+ IC tank in the front.


Wulfen are an issue. 3+ invuls all day long, 2 wounds each. Sure wish we had some STR 8 AP 2 we could drop on them... My answer was to spread out and let him come to me and then skidoodle or trap him. it worked. And armies like that are real points intensive and elite so they kill what they want when they want but attrition hurts them and position OFTEN hurts them (TWC being the obvious exception).

But knowing that, you can always just do the old "Feed and run" thing. Dark Eldar are so fast they can get there and do it. Pretty cool.



Honestly this is why i want to use the void raven with possibly dark scythes vs wulfen. There aren't many answers to wulfen and while i'm forcing myself down a narrow path just to deal with wulfen there are other units it can hurt a lot too (mega nobz, termies and multi wound toughness 4 FnP units). It's also making me consider getting a 2nd void raven bomber but they are expensive in points and in cash and sometimes the one by itself doesn't net enough kills to make it worth it. It really depends as sometimes it's good (like against the orks) and many times it just doesn't kill enough for its points even if it tends to survive because enemies must snap shoot it.


Like all units, its not to be considered in a vacuum. I might hesitate to take two of them but a list could be made for it. I made the Eldar Air Force work. THAT is a fun list to play.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
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I suppose if i'm facing a marine army the void ravens could legitimately do some nice damage to them. As long as two bombs don't scatter too badly it could even help vs chaos termie drops and similar. I suppose my biggest issue is i don't want to drop 80 USD on a unit and then find out i don't even want to use it. That said it's not too different to buying 2 boxes of reavers or a box of incubi with a raider box. I'm just sorry i had to waste like 50 USD per ravager. They look cool but that wasn't money well spent.

On the plus side AA is usually rare en masse (except with tau maybe) so i could even jink one being shot at while the other just does its job. Of course i'd probably silence the AA before this even happens but without certain units this might be a little hard. In the cases of a knight or tau unit with AA it may be very difficult to silence so i may have to go back to the option of just jinking one while the other attacks. They could be smart however and just keep shooting at the same one to prevent it using its missiles or bomb if i do this of course.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/13 07:15:00


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As someone that has a highly competitive friend that plays SW... they are damn good.

Honestly My Harlequins and DE dont stand a chance at all, I need to play Corsairs to have a good far game against him. And honestly SW vs Corsairs was some of the best games Ive ever played in the 10yrs playing.

He allies a unit of Deathwatch too, they are soooooo good.


@Jancoran
Also YES the transport is part of the cost...... you are paying to transport them to do what you want, it is part of the unit. 225+ Vehicle. If the vehicle was out doing something else turn 1-2 and your unit was not in it.... sure dont say they are together.
Your unit is what 290pts then? Not saying it doesnt work for your meta. But not in mine.


So I played DE today (normally play Corsairs or Harlequins now days) I was helping a newer player so I played DE.

I took a Bomber and a Razorwing with a Melee style army (still have 4x3 bikes and 2 Gunboats) But I had some Grots with Melee Characters and some Talos too.

The Bomber and Razorwing did like always. Razorwing had terrible targets, the bomber killed some SM's and Cultist (He played the new Khorne turn 1-2 charging army and the other army was GK's) Even in a "friendly" game the fliers killed some SM's or trash models. My SUCCUBUS did better.
The best the Bomber did was made Cultist run away from nothing and killed some SM's Like always the Grots was my MVP lol.

Edit: Spelling

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/13 07:19:16


   
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 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
" TH/SS TWC are beastly to kill and Wulfen are straight broken. "

Well, we 100% agree on that. BA shooting can't handle either, really. DE have poison, but Wulfen are rocking layered saves. The poison is better vs the TWC, but they'll likely have a 2+ IC tank in the front.


Wulfen are an issue. 3+ invuls all day long, 2 wounds each. Sure wish we had some STR 8 AP 2 we could drop on them... My answer was to spread out and let him come to me and then skidoodle or trap him. it worked. And armies like that are real points intensive and elite so they kill what they want when they want but attrition hurts them and position OFTEN hurts them (TWC being the obvious exception).

But knowing that, you can always just do the old "Feed and run" thing. Dark Eldar are so fast they can get there and do it. Pretty cool.


I play both armies and Wulfen and Thunderwolves are my favourite models in the entire 40k. A typical SW list has 6 thunderwolves and 2x5 wulfen, with 3 storm shield and a thanderhammer for the cavalry and 2x (2 storm shields & thunder hammer, 2 axes, a leader and grenades) and these three units cost only 770 points. Againts them you can't go for the assault, you need to shoot the wulfen with everything you can, ignoring the rest of the army, in close combat engage the troops that arrive in drop pods. There are some lists with 2 units of thunderwolves and even 3x5 wulfen. Those werewolves have a lot of attacks at s6-10 ap1-2 and they get to unleash all their attacks once again if the die in close combat, even if they have already fought that turn. Nothing, including the corpsethief claw is going to survive in melee against them, and we're talking about 230 points for unit, wulfen are very cheap for what they're capable of.

 
   
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Weeeeell aware of the Wulfen and TWC for sure. They are good.

But as Dark Eldar the question isnt whether they are, its how to fight them. That is what is worth discussing.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

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 Blackie wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
" TH/SS TWC are beastly to kill and Wulfen are straight broken. "

Well, we 100% agree on that. BA shooting can't handle either, really. DE have poison, but Wulfen are rocking layered saves. The poison is better vs the TWC, but they'll likely have a 2+ IC tank in the front.


Wulfen are an issue. 3+ invuls all day long, 2 wounds each. Sure wish we had some STR 8 AP 2 we could drop on them... My answer was to spread out and let him come to me and then skidoodle or trap him. it worked. And armies like that are real points intensive and elite so they kill what they want when they want but attrition hurts them and position OFTEN hurts them (TWC being the obvious exception).

But knowing that, you can always just do the old "Feed and run" thing. Dark Eldar are so fast they can get there and do it. Pretty cool.


I play both armies and Wulfen and Thunderwolves are my favourite models in the entire 40k. A typical SW list has 6 thunderwolves and 2x5 wulfen, with 3 storm shield and a thanderhammer for the cavalry and 2x (2 storm shields & thunder hammer, 2 axes, a leader and grenades) and these three units cost only 770 points. Againts them you can't go for the assault, you need to shoot the wulfen with everything you can, ignoring the rest of the army, in close combat engage the troops that arrive in drop pods. There are some lists with 2 units of thunderwolves and even 3x5 wulfen. Those werewolves have a lot of attacks at s6-10 ap1-2 and they get to unleash all their attacks once again if the die in close combat, even if they have already fought that turn. Nothing, including the corpsethief claw is going to survive in melee against them, and we're talking about 230 points for unit, wulfen are very cheap for what they're capable of.


Honestly Psychic works best against that..... and DE doesnt have that :/

   
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Of which psychic do you speak specifically?
   
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I beat 2 wolfstars at Warzone Atlanta this year using my Dark Eldar army. Played a very MSU list and focused on objectives. Sacrificed lots of venoms and warrior units here and there to move block. Killing wasn't an option as it was full strength for rerollable saves and invis.

I'd also like to respond to the statement of not wanting to reserve much. In many of my games I end up reserving all but 1 or 2 units when they have the first turn and I can't set up "safely".
   
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I don't frequently play alpha strike lists, so null (ish) deploy means virtually nothing to me. Only that you're not killing many BA on turn 1.

On the flip side, if I go heavy reserves, I just present myself piecemeal and get chopped up a bit at a time.
   
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Yes, if I'm able to set up out of range or LOS of enemy guns and they don't have anything coming in during turn 1 then I usually deploy normally. On dawn of war or vanguard strike it can be nice having that long board edge to set everything up on one side far away from opponents and buy more time though.

We get tougher as the game goes on so I prefer having a short turn 1 and 2 in tournaments to get to turn 5 or 6 instead of having the game end at turn 4 or 5.
   
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 lessthanjeff wrote:
I beat 2 wolfstars at Warzone Atlanta this year using my Dark Eldar army. Played a very MSU list and focused on objectives. Sacrificed lots of venoms and warrior units here and there to move block. Killing wasn't an option as it was full strength for rerollable saves and invis.

I'd also like to respond to the statement of not wanting to reserve much. In many of my games I end up reserving all but 1 or 2 units when they have the first turn and I can't set up "safely".


Awesome.

Also, I reserve QUITE liberally as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't frequently play alpha strike lists, so null (ish) deploy means virtually nothing to me. Only that you're not killing many BA on turn 1.

On the flip side, if I go heavy reserves, I just present myself piecemeal and get chopped up a bit at a time.


this is a planning issue not so much a tactical one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yes, if I'm able to set up out of range or LOS of enemy guns and they don't have anything coming in during turn 1 then I usually deploy normally. On dawn of war or vanguard strike it can be nice having that long board edge to set everything up on one side far away from opponents and buy more time though.

We get tougher as the game goes on so I prefer having a short turn 1 and 2 in tournaments to get to turn 5 or 6 instead of having the game end at turn 4 or 5.


Precisely.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/13 20:40:57


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
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So let's say you reserve 1000 pts out of an 1850 list. Turn 1 you are short 1000 pts. Turn 2 you are short 333 pts approximately. And reserved units can't assault until turn 3 at the soonest. I quit trying to use Stormravens because too many battles were over before I could even assault. How are you getting around this? BA and DE both are hilariously outgunned by good lists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 22:17:51


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
So let's say you reserve 1000 pts out of an 1850 list. Turn 1 you are short 1000 pts. Turn 2 you are short 333 pts approximately. And reserved units can't assault until turn 3 at the soonest. I quit trying to use Stormravens because too many battles were over before I could even assault. How are you getting around this? BA and DE both are hilariously outgunned by good lists.


I agree on the dark eldar part at least. I haven't seen how blood angels are now and don't play them. If i don't get first turn as somebody put it i just deploy all on one flank and then move up very quickly. Most enemies can't keep up with dark eldar and unless they are factions like the cheesy *** tau they can't shoot you at every part of the board whether you have cover or are out of line of sight. Smart missile systems truly are one of the banes of the dark eldar and that's in a faction made to counter them. The other counter tau have is being able to shoot at reserves coming in and getting the ability to have skyfire on all units. Tau would seriously be more balanced against dark eldar without riptides and stormsurge and those special suit sub-systems don't help either. I mean ghostkeel are stupid good for what they are but their range seems limited and they aren't that hot. Riptides and Stormsurge just make the game super hard to win.

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BA have less firepower than DE. Every list for the most part out-shoots BA. Even Nids with flyrants.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 22:34:36


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
So let's say you reserve 1000 pts out of an 1850 list. Turn 1 you are short 1000 pts. Turn 2 you are short 333 pts approximately. And reserved units can't assault until turn 3 at the soonest. I quit trying to use Stormravens because too many battles were over before I could even assault. How are you getting around this? BA and DE both are hilariously outgunned by good lists.


Usually it's more like I have 100 points on the table turn 1 and neither of us are shooting each other because I'm out of LOS so I don't care how balanced it is. It makes it more like turn 2 is the first turn of the game.

I don't do that with grotesquerie's and corpsethief claws, but it's very valuable when you're running lots of venoms, warriors, and razorwing jetfighters.

Most big events I've played at you only get through 4 or 5 turns as is. I'd rather the fighting be turns 2-5 than 1-4 because I'll have more benefits for my army.

Not saying you should always do it but it shuts down a lot of armies that rely on getting the drop on you. Most commonly I do this against Space Marines, Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Corsairs, and even other Dark Eldar.
   
 
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