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Or just take ally detach with TW cavalry and lord/battle leader (and two cheap servitors), they are much faster, have same durability (even higher with lord) and strike just a bit weaker.
Silver144 wrote: Or just take ally detach with TW cavalry and lord/battle leader (and two cheap servitors), they are much faster, have same durability (even higher with lord) and strike just a bit weaker.
Indeed, this is a viable alternative.
The enemy will pour all its fire into the Wolves leaving my Eldar save, dry and aiming for his throat.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
Indeed, the rest is not bad but not efficient enough and too pricey.
However, as allies they are ideal as they can complement an army really well.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
I'd round that up to an honest three. 0.5 for a mlv2 Rune Priest with a mount - roll in the Divination charts and pray for Forewarning and Misfortune.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
I'd round that up to an honest three. 0.5 for a mlv2 Rune Priest with a mount - roll in the Divination charts and pray for Forewarning and Misfortune.
Isn't there is only bike option for rune priest? TW mounts are only for lord, WGBL and techmarine.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
I'd round that up to an honest three. 0.5 for a mlv2 Rune Priest with a mount - roll in the Divination charts and pray for Forewarning and Misfortune.
Isn't there is only bike option for rune priest? TW mounts are only for lord, WGBL and techmarine.
Bike and Jump Pack, both are regarded as 'Mounts' by the rules...although I'm pretty sure the Jump Pack is mounted to the Priest.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
I'd round that up to an honest three. 0.5 for a mlv2 Rune Priest with a mount - roll in the Divination charts and pray for Forewarning and Misfortune.
Isn't there is only bike option for rune priest? TW mounts are only for lord, WGBL and techmarine.
Bike and Jump Pack, both are regarded as 'Mounts' by the rules...although I'm pretty sure the Jump Pack is mounted to the Priest.
Ah, thats how you spell it, ok.
However, there is little use in single psyker this edition, he will struggle to find needed spell and probably will be denied easily. There are much more reason to take librconclave.
But I take ml1 guy with 60pts base and axe time to time just for the sake of force. Underpowered pick, but watch the face of insta killed riptide is priceless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/28 10:56:06
Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/12/28 10:59:55
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, in practically every case, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/28 11:43:21
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Initiative, FNP (and getting no FNP vs ID), Schred, Insta Death (and pretty much every BRB rules) were taken into account.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus. What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
I did say earlier that considering 7ed is a shooting meta, Wulfen may not be op in the grand scheme of things. Still, I don't see how they can't be considered a problem when they are so much better than their competitors from other codex (and I doubt GW will boost significantly these units in future release).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/12/28 12:10:55
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Pretty sure you make up for it with Skimmers that you can assault out of.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Pretty sure you make up for it with Skimmers that you can assault out of.
As yes, those danged assault skimmers that I regularly shoot down with bolt pistols.
That's another cute bit about wulfen. They don't need grenades because they'll always get to attack, but they can take them.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Pretty sure you make up for it with Skimmers that you can assault out of.
As yes, those danged assault skimmers that I regularly shoot down with bolt pistols.
That's another cute bit about wulfen. They don't need grenades because they'll always get to attack, but they can take them.
Heh yeah and our transports love to explode too (which isn't fun with an army composed of low armor saves and low toughness). Nice to have 5+ armor on reavers and most everything (to think 4+ 6++ on scourge is above average and 3+ on incubi and coven MC's is the most outside of shadow field archon's which love to die for high, high prices). All non-coven units are toughness 3 (excepting a couple things). All of our vehicles outside of flyers are open topped and tend to explode when pen'd. Our flyers also don't do enough. Oh and our vehicle armor is 10 all around on everything except the great ravager which gets 11 in front and side and 10 in back and if you jink it shoots snap shots on everything and tends to under-perform even when it can shoot.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/29 00:03:02
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Pretty sure you make up for it with Skimmers that you can assault out of.
As yes, those danged assault skimmers that I regularly shoot down with bolt pistols.
That's another cute bit about wulfen. They don't need grenades because they'll always get to attack, but they can take them.
Thought you said you were done here.
Anyway.
Don't be knocking bolt pistols, s4 ap5 kills units of Thunderwolves and Wulfen more often than Lascanons, Scatter Lasers, D-weapons or Strength 10 ap1 blasts do.
You mentioned bringing cheese to deal with cheese, you just got the type of cheese wrong. Wulfen are swiss cheese, they're full of holes like the point that all you gotta do to make them a waste of points is position your less expensive units to stop them getting at your more expensive units.
They aren't jump and their grenades, if you purchase them, fire 1-3 bolt pistol shots at bolt pistol range, that's the kind of firepower that messes a unit up before you charge it, not the kind of firepower that clears a path. A unit of Wulfen can and will be stopped by a Servitor.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
I said I was done with the argument... and few pages back. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic at the beginning of the post, but if you aren't I'd LOVE to see an realistic example followed by math hammer proving that.
In any case you keep on about MSUMSUMSU! Okay, the wulfen eat a small unit, sweeping advance lose one maybe two the next turn, rinse repeat. The buffs have already been handed out, and if the SW players charges a small unit that leaves the wulfen in the opponents kill box, that's entirely on the furry players part. MSU works for maelstrom but will cost you the game in eternal war (especially against space puppies ). You seem to be forgetting that the SW player has other units on the board to help deal with MSU (long fangs, Blackmanes pods full of grey hunters, sky claws, IKs etc) Not to mention there MIGHT be 10 units in the game that can delete a squad of wulfen at minimum unit size.
Also when I mentioned grenades, I wasn't referencing the damage they do. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't matter whether Wulfen swing at I1 or not (death frenzy)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/29 08:55:44
Dantes_Baals wrote: You seem to be forgetting that the SW player has other units on the board to help deal with MSU (long fangs, Blackmanes pods full of grey hunters, sky claws, IKs etc)
No, they don't Nobody takes this crappy semimarine analogs we have in our codex outside the nonserious "fun" games, where the balance is not a thing anyway. SW are just Imperial furry deathstar superfriends, not a standalone army
But you are totally right about the wulfens, they are way to stupidly broken in melee. Buff aura and frenzy post-death strikes should be deleted, and their base and wargear prices should be higher. But, to be honest, they have a huge drawback - lack of mobility. You average will see them in combat at 3-rd or 4-th turn.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/29 10:51:27
Dantes_Baals wrote: I said I was done with the argument... and few pages back. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic at the beginning of the post, but if you aren't I'd LOVE to see an realistic example followed by math hammer proving that.
In any case you keep on about MSUMSUMSU! Okay, the wulfen eat a small unit, sweeping advance lose one maybe two the next turn, rinse repeat. The buffs have already been handed out, and if the SW players charges a small unit that leaves the wulfen in the opponents kill box, that's entirely on the furry players part. MSU works for maelstrom but will cost you the game in eternal war (especially against space puppies ). You seem to be forgetting that the SW player has other units on the board to help deal with MSU (long fangs, Blackmanes pods full of grey hunters, sky claws, IKs etc) Not to mention there MIGHT be 10 units in the game that can delete a squad of wulfen at minimum unit size.
Also when I mentioned grenades, I wasn't referencing the damage they do. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't matter whether Wulfen swing at I1 or not (death frenzy)
Mathhammer terms.
Wulfen that people are afraid of are usually packing a full set of TH/SS and grenades
After hitting a Bolt wounds the toughness 4 wulfen on a 4 for a grand total of 33.4% wound ratio and has a 66%(rounding down) chance of being scrubbed off by the shields, then a 34%(rounding up) chance of being scrubbed off by FNP.
The S10 ap2 blast - Vindicator - wounds on a 2 for an 84% chance of wounding.
Gets scrubbed off by the same 66% chance with the shield, gets no FNP and suffers insta-death making the two wounds irrelevant, seems entirely in favour of the blast.
Except every turn that Vindicator can throw down a maximum of five wounds into that squad of Wulfen, five wounds with a 66% chance of being irrelevant.
For the a smaller price a normal Marine player can grab two squads of Scouts, which ironically enough have bolt guns.
Once they get in range of the Vindicator's gun the Wulfen are going to get at it and total it in 2-3 turns, facing down 10-15 wounds at a maximum assuming I mass my Wulfen together nice and tight like an idiot and your roll doesn't scatter. My Wulfen are going to take their 66% save against every successful wound and at best that Vindicator will take two in the first attempt, rounding up to two in the second and a less than 50% chance of one in the third, that Wulfen will destroy the Vindicator and keep moving.
The two squads of scouts are going to take the challenge, they play it passive and block the Wulfen to make a squad of five block eight inches of the field so that even if they take casualties in the shooting phase they still block the path with a bubble. They're also going to sit in two rows because the whole 2' rule means no charging through enemy units.
So, these Scouts have Bolt Guns that have 24 inch range and rapid fire, lets tally ten wounds at 24 inches, twenty wounds in the first rapid fire, ten in the second and ten wounds in each overwatch.
50 potential wounds dropped by 80% ability to shrug them off is ten wounds, how many wounds does a five man squad of Wulfen get again?
250 Points worth of Wulfen scrapped by 110 points worth of Scouts, probably with one unit of surviving Scouts in the deal to help block the TWC, even if you completely void the overwatch due to the regularity that it gets nothing you're still getting 40 shots at the mutts.
Sure you can add in everything that can back the Wulfen up but that would mean I'm packing variety rather than spamming anything - further, any other player has the same opportunity to back their MSU up, cameo cloaks and or cover that makes things difficult for Long Fangs who have no access to ignores cover, spreading their units to force Ragnar's pods to land in no man's land rather than in Linebreaker territory like they're supposed to and actually impeding the Wulfen and TWCs advance to boot, long range of your own to shoot the Sky Claws out of the sky then fire on whatever is left of the TWC and Wulfen still making their way up the table.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/29 13:49:23
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Dantes_Baals wrote: I said I was done with the argument... and few pages back. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic at the beginning of the post, but if you aren't I'd LOVE to see an realistic example followed by math hammer proving that.
In any case you keep on about MSUMSUMSU! Okay, the wulfen eat a small unit, sweeping advance lose one maybe two the next turn, rinse repeat. The buffs have already been handed out, and if the SW players charges a small unit that leaves the wulfen in the opponents kill box, that's entirely on the furry players part. MSU works for maelstrom but will cost you the game in eternal war (especially against space puppies ). You seem to be forgetting that the SW player has other units on the board to help deal with MSU (long fangs, Blackmanes pods full of grey hunters, sky claws, IKs etc) Not to mention there MIGHT be 10 units in the game that can delete a squad of wulfen at minimum unit size.
Also when I mentioned grenades, I wasn't referencing the damage they do. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't matter whether Wulfen swing at I1 or not (death frenzy)
Mathhammer terms.
Wulfen that people are afraid of are usually packing a full set of TH/SS and grenades
After hitting a Bolt wounds the toughness 4 wulfen on a 4 for a grand total of 33.4% wound ratio and has a 66%(rounding down) chance of being scrubbed off by the shields, then a 34%(rounding up) chance of being scrubbed off by FNP.
The S10 ap2 blast - Vindicator - wounds on a 2 for an 84% chance of wounding.
Gets scrubbed off by the same 66% chance with the shield, gets no FNP and suffers insta-death making the two wounds irrelevant, seems entirely in favour of the blast.
Except every turn that Vindicator can throw down a maximum of five wounds into that squad of Wulfen, five wounds with a 66% chance of being irrelevant.
For the a smaller price a normal Marine player can grab two squads of Scouts, which ironically enough have bolt guns.
Once they get in range of the Vindicator's gun the Wulfen are going to get at it and total it in 2-3 turns, facing down 10-15 wounds at a maximum assuming I mass my Wulfen together nice and tight like an idiot and your roll doesn't scatter. My Wulfen are going to take their 66% save against every successful wound and at best that Vindicator will take two in the first attempt, rounding up to two in the second and a less than 50% chance of one in the third, that Wulfen will destroy the Vindicator and keep moving.
The two squads of scouts are going to take the challenge, they play it passive and block the Wulfen to make a squad of five block eight inches of the field so that even if they take casualties in the shooting phase they still block the path with a bubble. They're also going to sit in two rows because the whole 2' rule means no charging through enemy units.
So, these Scouts have Bolt Guns that have 24 inch range and rapid fire, lets tally ten wounds at 24 inches, twenty wounds in the first rapid fire, ten in the second and ten wounds in each overwatch.
50 potential wounds dropped by 80% ability to shrug them off is ten wounds, how many wounds does a five man squad of Wulfen get again?
250 Points worth of Wulfen scrapped by 110 points worth of Scouts, probably with one unit of surviving Scouts in the deal to help block the TWC, even if you completely void the overwatch due to the regularity that it gets nothing you're still getting 40 shots at the mutts.
Sure you can add in everything that can back the Wulfen up but that would mean I'm packing variety rather than spamming anything - further, any other player has the same opportunity to back their MSU up, cameo cloaks and or cover that makes things difficult for Long Fangs who have no access to ignores cover, spreading their units to force Ragnar's pods to land in no man's land rather than in Linebreaker territory like they're supposed to and actually impeding the Wulfen and TWCs advance to boot, long range of your own to shoot the Sky Claws out of the sky then fire on whatever is left of the TWC and Wulfen still making their way up the table.
The only str 8 or higher blast dark eldar have are the void mines (and technically the dark scythes with str 8 ap 2 small blast but it is small blast) from the void raven which isn't so hot and you only get one per void raven. Pray it doesn't scatter off the mark.
Normally we make up with it with instant death melee but i think you already know where i'm gonna go with that one ;P. Given the storm shields and only one turn of instant death melee with no grenades i think we know how well that ends.
At least when i fight space wolves i feel like i have a chance though rather than the rofl stomp i get as dark eldar playing against tau with that riptide, double stormsurge, double ghostkeel, multiple stealth suits and shadowsun from a player that sometimes cheats no less.
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Wulfen are anything but fragile and yeah it's different when the enemy has drop pods of em. Now if you wanted to say imperial guard can wipe the board with em you may have a point (str 8 ap 3 ordnance and better up the butt) but i'm not sure how many leman russ tanks people even take anymore or of what variants. I could swear there seems to be people complaining about the normal russ these days and they used to be a staple of guard armies. I mean you could run infantry but i dunno if that was a good idea.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/29 20:03:16
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
