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Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.

Without invul save and accessible delivery to melee they will be useless, just to fragile to survive a round, not to mention the two.

I disagree. They'd still have two wounds and FNP. They should lose to everything else that marine melee loses to. But they are special snowflakes and get cheap stormshields. Get real. Maybe for 35 pts a model the stormshields would be fair. They win every assault even if they lose. Their defenses should be expensive.

Martel732 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.

Without invul save and accessible delivery to melee they will be useless, just to fragile to survive a round, not to mention the two.

I disagree. They'd still have two wounds and FNP. They should lose to everything else that marine melee loses to. But they are special snowflakes and get cheap stormshields. Get real. Maybe for 35 pts a model the stormshields would be fair. They win every assault even if they lose. Their defenses should be expensive.

2 wounds and FNP means nothing when your T4. Str8+ shooting is just too spammable this edition and invul is the only way to let this transportless 6' infantry guys run across the board. But their price should be higher though, there is no doubt.

Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.

Martel732 wrote:
Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.

Sure thing! Right after regular marines will lose their gravs, free sarges and transports; necrons their RP; tau their markerlights; dark angels their rerollable jinx; deamons their invisible and rerollable 2++ spam; eldar will completly be rewritten and mono imperial knights will become a joke, we will happily give our storm shields

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.

Sure thing! Right after regular marines will lose their gravs, free sarges and transports; necrons their RP; tau their markerlights; dark angels their rerollable jinx; deamons their invisible and rerollable 2++ spam; eldar will completly be rewritten and mono imperial knights will become a joke, we will happily give our storm shields

Fine with me. BA aren't on that list. You can't fall when you're in the cellar. SW make my entire codex pointless with two units. Doesn't get much worse than that.

Martel732 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.

Sure thing! Right after regular marines will lose their gravs, free sarges and transports; necrons their RP; tau their markerlights; dark angels their rerollable jinx; deamons their invisible and rerollable 2++ spam; eldar will completly be rewritten and mono imperial knights will become a joke, we will happily give our storm shields

Fine with me. BA aren't on that list. You can't fall when you're in the cellar. SW make my entire codex pointless with two units. Doesn't get much worse than that.

Agree with you here, BA really need some love. Or they may become a "red marines" till the 8-th ed will drop

Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(

Martel732 wrote:
Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(

They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(

They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.

Problem is, I can't image what "love" they'd give BA to fix the dilemma. There is no way around the Wulfen strike back thing.

Martel732 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(

They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.

Problem is, I can't image what "love" they'd give BA to fix the dilemma. There is no way around the Wulfen strike back thing.

Do not ask GW for snowflake love, or you will get blood blood blood curse vampire bat blood blood type of background with new monstrous half-vampire bat marines in dancer poses, which become mandatory choice and will replace all other units in your codex.

A fate worse than being a bad codex, I suppose.

Martel732 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(

They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.

Problem is, I can't image what "love" they'd give BA to fix the dilemma. There is no way around the Wulfen strike back thing.

I'm going off topic a bit here but curiosity is getting the better of me and I don't have a BA codex handy.
What have the Blood Angels got to represent their Red Thirst and Black Rage?

+1 init on the charge and rage USR on the Death Company.

The real problem is that BA lack every single thing that makes vanilla marines good. Every. Single. Thing.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(

They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.

Problem is, I can't image what "love" they'd give BA to fix the dilemma. There is no way around the Wulfen strike back thing.

I'm going off topic a bit here but curiosity is getting the better of me and I don't have a BA codex handy.
What have the Blood Angels got to represent their Red Thirst and Black Rage?

"Red marines" with free transport is still better

I don't have the models to field that, and I'm not buying them. I'd have to get like six more grav cannons alone. Feth that. And I hate the idea of turning marines into Orks anyway, which is what battle company does. As it stands, BA can't live up to a single victory from their fluff, for those who care about that stuff. That makes BA double failures compared to space woofs.

Wulfen are just another symptom of the rapidly growing power creep/mary sue bloat that is 40K 6th/7th edition.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wulfen are just another symptom of the rapidly growing power creep/mary sue bloat that is 40K 6th/7th edition.

Not exactly. It's not universal, or the most recent codex would always be the best. There is no rhyme or reason to what GW makes overpowered.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wulfen are just another symptom of the rapidly growing power creep/mary sue bloat that is 40K 6th/7th edition.

Not exactly. It's not universal, or the most recent codex would always be the best. There is no rhyme or reason to what GW makes overpowered.

Inconsistency encourages people to hope their new codex will be the next subject of complaints about overpowered gak.
Except Eldar...for some reason their hopes are always fulfilled.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wulfen are just another symptom of the rapidly growing power creep/mary sue bloat that is 40K 6th/7th edition.

Not exactly. It's not universal, or the most recent codex would always be the best. There is no rhyme or reason to what GW makes overpowered.

Inconsistency encourages people to hope their new codex will be the next subject of complaints about overpowered gak.
Except Eldar...for some reason their hopes are always fulfilled.

Because Eldar are Elves and Elves are always better because. Apart from Dark Eldar of course because they are bad elves.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The two squads of scouts are going to take the challenge, they play it passive and block the Wulfen to make a squad of five block eight inches of the field so that even if they take casualties in the shooting phase they still block the path with a bubble. They're also going to sit in two rows because the whole 2' rule means no charging through enemy units.
So, these Scouts have Bolt Guns that have 24 inch range and rapid fire, lets tally ten wounds at 24 inches, twenty wounds in the first rapid fire, ten in the second and ten wounds in each overwatch.
50 potential wounds dropped by 80% ability to shrug them off is ten wounds, how many wounds does a five man squad of Wulfen get again?
250 Points worth of Wulfen scrapped by 110 points worth of Scouts, probably with one unit of surviving Scouts in the deal to help block the TWC, even if you completely void the overwatch due to the regularity that it gets nothing you're still getting 40 shots at the mutts.

What is this math you're doing? I'm genuinely lost. When you're saying "ten wounds at 24 inches" you mean 10 shots right? 50 potential wounds actually means 50 shots fired, yes?

Wulfen start 24" away, you get first turn, you fire 10 hit 6.67 wound 3.33 with 1.11 failed saves and 0.74 failed FNP.

Wulfen move 6" run whatever, they're maybe 15" away. So walk forward rapid fire 12" away, 20 shots equals 1.48 failed FNP equals 1 dead wulfen. Bottom of turn two wulfen charge one of the units, 10 overwatch shots makes 0.18 failed FNP, combat is another 0.27 wounds, squad gets wiped.

Second rapid fire, 10 shots with the remaining squad, another 0.74, another 0.18 from overwatch, another 0.27 from combat before your second squad is dead.

Adding up the total of the two squads, that's 3.86 wounds, or about two dead wulfen, out of a squad of 5. They held them back until turn 4 instead of turn 3, but you've still got 3 wulfen in your deployment zone.

I'm really not sure what you were trying to say, that 50 shots has the potential of killing 10 wulfen. A lasgun has the chance to kill a wulfen in a single turn, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I'm not saying I wouldn't try to screen with a cheap unit, or that you shouldn't try shooting them with bolters, but trying to say that bolters are the most efficient way to kill them? That's just a blatant lie.

A vindicator, on the other hand, only needs to score 6 hits to kill that many, and a plate dropped dead center on a squad has about a 70% chance of hitting within 3" of the target. Perhaps combine the vindicator AND the scouts and you'd have a chance.

 nintura wrote:
I love it when people pick perfect "what if" scenarios to prove their point.

Ditto.

Martel732 wrote:
Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.

Some jealousy from a BA player?

There have always been units and models in the game who are more effective than others.

Play Eldar? Buy at least 9 to 12 Jetbikers and a Wraithknight for about 200 Euro. And then you are not even half way for a 2000 pt army.

Martel732 wrote:
The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.

Death frenzy is what gets me. They already hit like a freight train. Do they really need to do it twice?

Lose Death Frenzy, charge them normal cost for war gear and that justifies 30 a pop while still being one of the best CC units in the game and a auto-include for Furry players. They'd still get to "curse" nearby units, they'd still wreck just about anything in combat. They just wouldn't be so ridiculous as to wipe out half a GK paladin squad at I5 and the other 5 when they die.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.

Death frenzy is what gets me. They already hit like a freight train. Do they really need to do it twice?

Lose Death Frenzy, charge them normal cost for war gear and that justifies 30 a pop while still being one of the best CC units in the game and a auto-include for Furry players. They'd still get to "curse" nearby units, they'd still wreck just about anything in combat. They just wouldn't be so ridiculous as to wipe out half a GK paladin squad at I5 and the other 5 when they die.

Calling SW players a furry is dangerously close to insult

I take offense to that. I see my friends at the "petting zoo" the second Tuesday of every month. They call me Feisty Frank and I go as a fox as its my spirit animal. Ive been with everybody in herd except for Babs the baboon (she's always playing hard to get). I love me some Furries.


No seriously, I refer to the Space Wolves themselves as Furries. Not the players given the wolf Lords riding wolves wearing wolf pelts and wolf tooth necklaces, accompanied by packs of fenresian wolves in a squad of more space wolves riding space wolves that.... I think I've gone cross-eyed. I just generally don't like the army because it not only jumped the shark, it did a 1060° ollie back flip over the shark and for such an over the top, bordering ridiculous dex (IMO) to be THE CC army gets a bit under my skin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(

They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.

3 turns to make it to CC? Are you loading them in a flyer or playing Hammer and anvil set up every game? Put em in a LR and you're in CC turn 1. Turn 2 on foot unless you're playing with like 2 dozen pieces of difficult terrain. They may be on foot, but they can move 6, and more or less charge up to 18" (run and charge).

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I take offense to that. I see my friends at the "petting zoo" the second Tuesday of every month. They call me Feisty Frank and I go as a fox as its my spirit animal. Ive been with everybody in herd except for Babs the baboon (she's always playing hard to get). I love me some Furries.


No seriously, I refer to the Space Wolves themselves as Furries. Not the players given the wolf Lords riding wolves wearing wolf pelts and wolf tooth necklaces, accompanied by packs of fenresian wolves in a squad of more space wolves riding space wolves that.... I think I've gone cross-eyed. I just generally don't like the army because it not only jumped the shark, it did a 1060° ollie back flip over the shark and for such an over the top, bordering ridiculous dex (IMO) to be THE CC army gets a bit under my skin.

Well, this is not the players fault.

To be honest I hate my army too for what they have become since the 5th edition drop (at the 5-th edition this was not SO bad though, at least cavalry was optional unit and army work generally fine without it). If 8-th will not fix it, I'll probably start count my army as "puppy blue" X-foundation viking marines

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.

Without invul save and accessible delivery to melee they will be useless, just to fragile to survive a round, not to mention the two.

I disagree. They'd still have two wounds and FNP. They should lose to everything else that marine melee loses to. But they are special snowflakes and get cheap stormshields. Get real. Maybe for 35 pts a model the stormshields would be fair. They win every assault even if they lose. Their defenses should be expensive.

2 wounds and FNP means nothing when your T4. Str8+ shooting is just too spammable this edition and invul is the only way to let this transportless 6' infantry guys run across the board. But their price should be higher though, there is no doubt.

Allied other assault units have to deal with that same shooting... without 10 point stormshields guaranteed to win them any Combat they get to.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

3 turns to make it to CC? Are you loading them in a flyer or playing Hammer and anvil set up every game? Put em in a LR and you're in CC turn 1. Turn 2 on foot unless you're playing with like 2 dozen pieces of difficult terrain. They may be on foot, but they can move 6, and more or less charge up to 18" (run and charge).

No, running on foot. Pay 250pts for LR? Ha-ha, no way. I'll buy another unit of full equipped cavalry for that points and there still will be some points left. My wulfens are running on foot and 3-rd turns is the closest when they manage to reach someone.

Silver144 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I take offense to that. I see my friends at the "petting zoo" the second Tuesday of every month. They call me Feisty Frank and I go as a fox as its my spirit animal. Ive been with everybody in herd except for Babs the baboon (she's always playing hard to get). I love me some Furries.


No seriously, I refer to the Space Wolves themselves as Furries. Not the players given the wolf Lords riding wolves wearing wolf pelts and wolf tooth necklaces, accompanied by packs of fenresian wolves in a squad of more space wolves riding space wolves that.... I think I've gone cross-eyed. I just generally don't like the army because it not only jumped the shark, it did a 1060° ollie back flip over the shark and for such an over the top, bordering ridiculous dex (IMO) to be THE CC army gets a bit under my skin.

Well, this is not the players fault.

To be honest I hate my army too for what they have become since the 5th edition drop (at the 5-th edition this was not SO bad though, at least cavalry was optional unit and army work generally fine without it). If 8-th will not fix it, I'll probably start count my army as "puppy blue" X-foundation viking marines

Yes I know. I don't think I've ever blamed the players for something GW fudged up.

I dunno, Wulfen strike a particular nerve, because 13th company in the EoT campaign was the epitome of awesome. Now that they're back with really wonky, jazz hands sculpts, are pretty harshly undercosted and stupidly strong compared to any other CC unit in the game (IKs included) with the corniest rule in the game. As if that wasn't enough they buff other units with some pretty nifty benefits.

That aside, no reason to hate your army man. You started an army of space vikings you thought was cool and Gee-dubs turned them into... well what we're talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Silver144 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

3 turns to make it to CC? Are you loading them in a flyer or playing Hammer and anvil set up every game? Put em in a LR and you're in CC turn 1. Turn 2 on foot unless you're playing with like 2 dozen pieces of difficult terrain. They may be on foot, but they can move 6, and more or less charge up to 18" (run and charge).

No, running on foot. Pay 250pts for LR? Ha-ha, no way. I'll buy another unit of full equipped cavalry for that points and there still will be some points left. My wulfens are running on foot and 3-rd turns is the closest when they manage to reach someone.

Meh different play styles I guess. T2 assaults by wulfen in a dawn of war set up are almost to be expected at my lgs. I've even seen a few T1 charges (granted either lucky dice rolls, terrible deployment by the opponent or both). Believe me my friend, it's definitely possible.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Meh different play styles I guess. T2 assaults by wulfen in a dawn of war set up are almost to be expected at my lgs. I've even seen a few T1 charges (granted either lucky dice rolls, terrible deployment by the opponent or both). Believe me my friend, it's definitely possible.

Yeah, you are right here. Another CC army probably will make CC much earlier.
Every opponent I face tries avoid wulfen as long as possible, or charge them with some invincible deathstar

But, to be honest, my regular opponents are mostly eldar, tau and necrons, so they use every chance to place tons of shooting at my fluffyfoots