Had my wulfen cherry popped...

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**Dakka Wolf**

kingbobbito wrote:
Dakka Wolf wrote:
The two squads of scouts are going to take the challenge, they play it passive and block the Wulfen to make a squad of five block eight inches of the field so that even if they take casualties in the shooting phase they still block the path with a bubble. They're also going to sit in two rows because the whole 2' rule means no charging through enemy units.
So, these Scouts have Bolt Guns that have 24 inch range and rapid fire, lets tally ten wounds at 24 inches, twenty wounds in the first rapid fire, ten in the second and ten wounds in each overwatch.
50 potential wounds dropped by 80% ability to shrug them off is ten wounds, how many wounds does a five man squad of Wulfen get again?
250 Points worth of Wulfen scrapped by 110 points worth of Scouts, probably with one unit of surviving Scouts in the deal to help block the TWC, even if you completely void the overwatch due to the regularity that it gets nothing you're still getting 40 shots at the mutts.

What is this math you're doing? I'm genuinely lost. When you're saying "ten wounds at 24 inches" you mean 10 shots right? 50 potential wounds actually means 50 shots fired, yes?

Wulfen start 24" away, you get first turn, you fire 10 hit 6.67 wound 3.33 with 1.11 failed saves and 0.74 failed FNP.

Wulfen move 6" run whatever, they're maybe 15" away. So walk forward rapid fire 12" away, 20 shots equals 1.48 failed FNP equals 1 dead wulfen. Bottom of turn two wulfen charge one of the units, 10 overwatch shots makes 0.18 failed FNP, combat is another 0.27 wounds, squad gets wiped.

Second rapid fire, 10 shots with the remaining squad, another 0.74, another 0.18 from overwatch, another 0.27 from combat before your second squad is dead.

Adding up the total of the two squads, that's 3.86 wounds, or about two dead wulfen, out of a squad of 5. They held them back until turn 4 instead of turn 3, but you've still got 3 wulfen in your deployment zone.

I'm really not sure what you were trying to say, that 50 shots has the potential of killing 10 wulfen. A lasgun has the chance to kill a wulfen in a single turn, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I'm not saying I wouldn't try to screen with a cheap unit, or that you shouldn't try shooting them with bolters, but trying to say that bolters are the most efficient way to kill them? That's just a blatant lie.

A vindicator, on the other hand, only needs to score 6 hits to kill that many, and a plate dropped dead center on a squad has about a 70% chance of hitting within 3" of the target. Perhaps combine the vindicator AND the scouts and you'd have a chance.

Lets talk about the things I missed, I missed rolling to wound, I also missed rolling to hit and that big old pie plate that can scatter and miss completely or be limited down to three possible wounds per turn by spreading the unit, or in rare but insanely funny moments ruin the very Vindicator that fired it or something else of value.

As for Lascanons find a Space Marine unit that gets five of them for 125 points or less and I will immediately concede that one.

**nintura**

You get 3++ for 10 points? And here I'm wondering why I have to pay 15 points for a 5++, 30 points for half an assault cannon, 20 points for a quarter of a typhoon missile launcher, and 50 for a terminator with AP 3 weapons.

**Dantes_Baals**

nintura wrote:
You get 3++ for 10 points? And here I'm wondering why I have to pay 15 points for a 5++, 30 points for half an assault cannon, 20 points for a quarter of a typhoon missile launcher, and 50 for a terminator with AP 3 weapons.

Don't forget ap4 force weapons.

Seriously though, your army is the psychic parallel to the Wolves CC abilities. That 5+ becomes a 4+ with the MoT, rerolling 1s of I'm not mistaken. Can't really excuse the gakky weapons though.

**Martel732**

Allow me to shed the smallest tear for CSM and their new uber book. Meanwhile, Wulfen >> than my entire codex and my new book.

**Dakka Wolf**

Martel732 wrote:
Allow me to shed the smallest tear for CSM and their new uber book. Meanwhile, Wulfen >> than my entire codex and my new book.

You sure about that?
Our last tournament was won by Blood Angels, dumped five or six Lucius Pods with normal and Librarian Dreads around his opponents in the first two turns and just started flaming away with Heavy Flamers and Pyromancy.
Didn't face him myself because I got curbstomped early but he made a mess of everything he faced, Tau Riptides, Eldar, Libby Conclave, Necrons and not that it counts for much these days but an Ork Green Tide.

**Martel732**

You can't hurt Riptides with pyromancy. And yes, Wulfen would have destroyed that list. There's nothing BA can field that isn't a total victim to Wulfen and TWC.

**Yoyoyo**

You don't need Pyromancy, you hit Riptides with the pointy stick attached to the Lib Dread.

Not sure how Wulfen fare against multiple AP4 templates, but if they are tanking on the 3++ they risk losing their S10 output.

Once the 3++ is gone, they're not so intimidating.

**Martel732**

A dread on foot will have a hard time charging the far more nimble Riptide. Trust me, I've tried.

**Yoyoyo**

Martel, I'm going to buy you a cuddly plush Riptide for Xmas. It might enjoy squishing your usually-murderous infantry and nimbly dance away from the fists of your angry and befuddled dreadnoughts, but isn't it cute and loveable?

Let's have some cheer this holiday season, eh?

**Dakka Wolf**

Martel732 wrote:
You can't hurt Riptides with pyromancy. And yes, Wulfen would have destroyed that list. There's nothing BA can field that isn't a total victim to Wulfen and TWC.

You can hurt the Riptides with Heavy Flamers and Powerfists though and he very much hurt them.
If somebody else was running my list that weekend maybe, but not me, not with my luck for that comp.
Curse gave Furious Charge instead of movement bonus.
Two Rhinos with Dozer Blades bogged on first turn.
Lost three TWC from the Deathpack to Overwatch.
Failed 8' Charge.
That luck stayed with me all weekend.

**Silver144**

What's the big deal about riptides? They are nice obj grabbers and can be a bit annoying with their 12 6-4 shots, but after you cut down all markerlights they are easily ignored. Or just put some tarpit at them, they'll stuck forever.

**slip**

My biggest complaint is that I finished my book during the Tau shooting phase. Then when it's my turn they wake me up and I'm supposed to remember my strategy. Crafty Tau. I'm on to you guys.

**Dakka Wolf**

Silver144 wrote:
What's the big deal about riptides? They are nice obj grabbers and can be a bit annoying with their 12 6-4 shots, but after you cut down all markerlights they are easily ignored. Or just put some tarpit at them, they'll stuck forever.

The big deal is that some armies simply have no way of dealing with the Riptide.
Imperial Guard, Nids and CSM mainly.

**nintura**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
nintura wrote:
You get 3++ for 10 points? And here I'm wondering why I have to pay 15 points for a 5++, 30 points for half an assault cannon, 20 points for a quarter of a typhoon missile launcher, and 50 for a terminator with AP 3 weapons.

Don't forget ap4 force weapons.

Seriously though, your army is the psychic parallel to the Wolves CC abilities. That 5+ becomes a 4+ with the MoT, rerolling 1s of I'm not mistaken. Can't really excuse the gakky weapons though.

you're right in that the 5++ becomes a 4++ IF you are under the effects of a blessing. However, re-rolling ones doesn't happen unless you MAX out your detachment. I.E maximum number of rubric marine squads, maximum number of scarab terminators, and maximum number of sorcerers. I'll let you figure out how many points you'll need to play to do that lol.

**Martel732**

Silver144 wrote:
What's the big deal about riptides? They are nice obj grabbers and can be a bit annoying with their 12 6-4 shots, but after you cut down all markerlights they are easily ignored. Or just put some tarpit at them, they'll stuck forever.

They also beat almost all my units in CC. And outshoot everything in my codex. And never die, since they are more durable than a Warhound titan. You're also forgetting the ion accelerator.

**nintura**

They can be hurt by Pyromancy unless they have some rule stating otherwise, by using the Molten Beam...

Ive killed my share of Riptides, just have to chase them down. Force is a great way to do it, Leviathan Dreads in Lucius Pattern Pods are another really great way to do it. Either corner them, or ignore them and take objectives.

As for 1k Sons, I just use Treason of Tzeentch and make their biggest gun squad shoot their best squad. Worked great with their huge-ass D-missile, 2 shot D-cannon, anchor suit, whatever it's called. I took that thing and lit up an entire broadside squad. It was glorious.

**Silver144**

Martel732 wrote:
Silver144 wrote:
What's the big deal about riptides? They are nice obj grabbers and can be a bit annoying with their 12 6-4 shots, but after you cut down all markerlights they are easily ignored. Or just put some tarpit at them, they'll stuck forever.

They also beat almost all my units in CC. And outshoot everything in my codex. And never die, since they are more durable than a Warhound titan. You're also forgetting the ion accelerator.

Not sure is it sarcasm or not

Oh that ion accelerator, terrifying weapon of mass destruction with heavy3 7-2 shots with BS3, or even the large blast (that will, probably scatter somewhere). Skitarii have 3 such weapon in a squad. With the introdaction of Riptide Wing the amount of this option is somewhere around zero

Everyone prefer to make one-use 72 shots with 6-4 rending profile. Thats kicking ass, no doubt. But for their point cost (around 700) I faced much worse thing, the whole invis deathstar for example.
Their melee? 3 attack with 2 init and 2 ws? Hitting on 5+, average 1 wound per turn, even the min tac squad will tarpit him, but usually there are couple better options for that work. Not to mention that single axe in squad probably will make a mess of him in 2-3 rounds.
Will not even comment his survivability. With amount of AP2 shooting his 5 wounds will fly away. If we are talking about competitive play, ofc. In fun matches even mutilators may be OP against bunch of guards with flamers.

**Martel732**

" With amount of AP2 shooting his 5 wounds will fly away."

Except they don't. 3++/5+++ is a bitch. More durable than a Warhound titan. Say it with me.

Riptides actually beat most BA units in CC. You're too used to SW easy street in CC.

" even the min tac squad will tarpit him"

You don't get it. That's a win for the Tau. So the Riptide gets to shoot and shoot and shoot and then after all that, you have to sacrifice one more squad to tarpit it for the rest of the game.

**kingbobbito**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You can't hurt Riptides with pyromancy. And yes, Wulfen would have destroyed that list. There's nothing BA can field that isn't a total victim to Wulfen and TWC.

You can hurt the Riptides with Heavy Flamers and Powerfists though and he very much hurt them.

Do I need to do all the math? Heavy flamer equals 1 hit, 0.33 wounds, 0.056 failed saves. A 5.6% chance of a wound.

**Silver144**

Stop compare everything to BA.
BA is underpowered army, somewhere around the CSM. If they are your power standard, then almost everything in game OP and broken.

And their activated 3++ means lack of shooting for the entire round, which makes them even easier to ignore.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
BA, as well as SW suffers for denying Spiritual Liege's ultra book

BA was punished with terrible codex and my fellow brothers was turned to wuffy wolf wolfing wolves... not to mention our fearsome king, who become a puppy blue Santa

**nintura**

Martel732 wrote:
" With amount of AP2 shooting his 5 wounds will fly away."

Except they don't. 3++/5+++ is a bitch. More durable than a Warhound titan. Say it with me.

Riptides actually beat most BA units in CC. You're too used to SW easy street in CC.

" even the min tac squad will tarpit him"

You don't get it. That's a win for the Tau. So the Riptide gets to shoot and shoot and shoot and then after all that, you have to sacrifice one more squad to tarpit it for the rest of the game.

Yep, I'd feel sorry for my dad's Black Templar against such a thing. In our newer armies, they aren't much of a threat, and people forget that. Riptides are surely hard to kill. But they don't cause all the devastation people think they do. IMO Leviathan Dreads are far worse, specially with the pod, but also quite a bit more cost I guess.

**Martel732**

Silver144 wrote:
Stop compare everything to BA.
BA is underpowered army, somewhere around the CSM. If they are your power standard, then almost everything in game OP and broken.

And their activated 3++ means lack of shooting for the entire round, which makes them even easier to ignore.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
BA, as well as SW suffers for denying Spiritual Liege's ultra book BA was punished with terrible codex and my fellow brothers was turned to wuffy wolf wolfing wolves... not to mention our fearsome king, who become a puppy blue Santa

Riptides can't be shot to death easily by anything short of D. It's more than just BA.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nintura wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
" With amount of AP2 shooting his 5 wounds will fly away."

Except they don't. 3++/5+++ is a bitch. More durable than a Warhound titan. Say it with me.

Riptides actually beat most BA units in CC. You're too used to SW easy street in CC.

" even the min tac squad will tarpit him"

You don't get it. That's a win for the Tau. So the Riptide gets to shoot and shoot and shoot and then after all that, you have to sacrifice one more squad to tarpit it for the rest of the game.

Yep, I'd feel sorry for my dad's Black Templar against such a thing. In our newer armies, they aren't much of a threat, and people forget that. Riptides are surely hard to kill. But they don't cause all the devastation people think they do. IMO Leviathan Dreads are far worse, specially with the pod, but also quite a bit more cost I guess.

Depends on how vulnerable you are to intercepting AP 2 pie plates. Skyhammer marines might as well pack it up. Leviathan dreads are a pure joke compared to Riptides. They can actually be killed.

"And their activated 3++ means lack of shooting for the entire round, which makes them even easier to ignore."

No, it doesn't.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

Martel please stop comparing everything to blood angels
I mean oh no how dare my thousand sons have ap 3 bolters or 4 shot slightly weak assault cannons with better range or how dare they have a psyker as a servant and how dare their terminators have power swords and a 2 wounds level 2 sergant wah wah wah
Pardon me for not having any sympathy for you as a BA player after what your codex did to my csm in 5th

**Norn Queen Yurei**

Had my Wulfen cherry poppe don my last game of 40k. They walked through genestealers, gaunts, and warriors, and I came to realise that these things were Hulk Hogan on speed. They sold no injuries, and got the crowd worked into a frenzy.

I've decided in the future to feed them a fodder unit of gaunts, or gun them down with copious shots. I still think they're cool though

**Sleep Spell**

While I absolutely love the fluff and idea behind the curse and believe that there are far scarier units in the game to face; the current implementation of wulfen really isn't all it could be IMO.

I can't see these guys hiding behind a storm shield and honestly that's the piece of war gear that seems to be causing a lot of complaints, without it any army should be a able to take a unit of 4+ marines off the table...
Perhaps give the squad the ability to buy an 5++ or scout or outflank at a reasonable price hike. I mean as long as they have a weakness (footslogging, weak to dakka, cost) they should be able to hit like a truck in melee. The strikes in death rule already sets a glass cannon/berserk theme.

On a side note:
playing skyhammer into tau seems like it would make for a short game with or without riptide; depending on wether the spae communists remembered to bring EWO or not...

**Martel732**

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Martel please stop comparing everything to blood angels
I mean oh no how dare my thousand sons have ap 3 bolters or 4 shot slightly weak assault cannons with better range or how dare they have a psyker as a servant and how dare their terminators have power swords and a 2 wounds level 2 sergant wah wah wah
Pardon me for not having any sympathy for you as a BA player after what your codex did to my csm in 5th

So noted. I have iks now as well but wulfen rape them too with effort

**Dakka Wolf**

kingbobbito wrote:
Dakka Wolf wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You can't hurt Riptides with pyromancy. And yes, Wulfen would have destroyed that list. There's nothing BA can field that isn't a total victim to Wulfen and TWC.

You can hurt the Riptides with Heavy Flamers and Powerfists though and he very much hurt them.

Do I need to do all the math? Heavy flamer equals 1 hit, 0.33 wounds, 0.056 failed saves. A 5.6% chance of a wound.

You just said it yourself - "A 5.6% chance of a wound" small it may be but it isn't 0% and four of his Heavy Flamer shots got wounds on Riptides.

Turn 1
BA: Lucius Pod Dreads onto field - Dreads stay in pods.
Tau response: Marker Lights followed by Riptide shooting - Destroyed all Pods and one Dread, First Blood Shooting Tau.
BA: Psychic phase (Pyromancy) Hits Marker drones with templates and a Nova. Wiped one unit and decimated another two.
BA: Shooting Phase fired Heavy Flamers on Marker Drones and Riptides, two wounds on two Riptides, more Marker Drones destroyed.
Tau: Movement Phase Marker Drones scramble to block Dreads from Riptides, Riptides put up Shields.
Tau: Shooting phase was horrible tbh, didn't get more than one marker light on any Dread, only pen roll destroyed a regular Dread's Heavy Flamer.
Turn 2
BA: More Dreads pass reserves and land.
Tau: Manage to explode one pod and glance it's occupant.
BA: Movement nothing much really, moved everything closer.
BA: Psychic Phase more Novas and Flame templates, more busted up Marker Drones.
BA: Shooting targets Riptides with Multi Meltas to declare them as the targets, scores a smattering of wounds, drops Heavy Flame Templates over Marker Drones, just clipping their intended targets, scoring another pair of wounds on Riptides and clearing legal charge pathways.
BA: Declares Charges.
Tau: Shameful overwatch.
BA: Makes successful charges and kills two Riptides
Tau player surrenders like a sook.

**Martel732**

Sure, if the Tau just stands there and lets himself get assaulted. Dreads are slow and poor at assaulting, ESPECIALLY when hiding in an immobile pod. Some of these Tau battle reports blow my mind. I could do a better job with a vastly inferior list.

**Dakka Wolf**

Martel732 wrote:
Sure, if the Tau just stands there and lets himself get assaulted. Dreads are slow and poor at assaulting, ESPECIALLY when hiding in an immobile pod. Some of these Tau battle reports blow my mind. I could do a better job with a vastly inferior list.

Nobody said every Tau player was a tactical genius. He hid in a corner like he did in every match and when the Pods started arriving had nowhere to run and limited options due to the spammy nature of his list..

**nintura**

Ive faced Tau armies many, many times. Having Riptides to Stormsurges to the big stealth suits. Sometimes multiples at once. I've never once lost my Leviathan Dread. Throw in Brey'arth, drop pods, Legion of the damned, and I usually table them by turn 3-4.