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Hi all,
I'm in the process of finalizing an Imperial Fists list but seem to constantly be coming up short when it comes to reliable anti tank capabilities. Does the community have any useful advice or experiences?

The current list I'm toying with has 2 laser vindicators, but these are at best 6 twin linked lascannon shots which seems rather weak at punching through av14. The dreado with the tl s10 lascannons seems nice for the same points but I just dont quite know what would really work. Javlins zooming around seem like a cool option but again, a single mm shot will often miss (especially with my luck!).

Any comments or experience would be appreciated

Laser rapiers for cheap good AT

Graviton rapiers. Haywire snorts haughtily at flare shields and av values.

But noticably does bounce harmlessly off titans...

Haywire works against super heavy vehicles as normal and void shields as per the FAQ?

A Deimos Vindi in 40k with Schism of Mars has a 39.5% chance of exploding av14 in a single round of shooting (link to maths below). Can you get tank hunter on your laser vindis in 30k? If so it achieves the same.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646162.page

Its twin linked ordance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

locarno24 wrote:
But noticably does bounce harmlessly off titans...

In what way does it bounce off titans?

Titans are immune to haywire and the like in 30k.

 BrookM wrote:
Titans are immune to haywire and the like in 30k.

Which red book is that in? I know the warlord has a special rule that protects him, but...

 Crazyterran wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Titans are immune to haywire and the like in 30k.

Which red book is that in? I know the warlord has a special rule that protects him, but...

The Mechanicum red book. The Warhound is immune to haywire and it stacks from there with the bigger the titan, the more buffs it gets.

Im afraid your going to need to provide book and page number for that. I dont use haywire so ive never seen the rule anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although rereading the op im thinking its your rolls that are messing you up with 6 s9 ap2 twin linked ordance shots against av14.
Since you are running fists though i would reccomend a 10 man lascannon heavy weapon squad as you get tank hunter automatically.

Pages 90, 91 and 93 of the TAGHMATA red book for the Horus Heresy series. The TOWERING MONSTROSITY special rules.

Graviton Rapiers are an amazing source of AV, if you don't play against Titans regularly haywire's impotence is of no consequence. They are second to none against Spartans, help you control the map and reduced armoured column players to tears. I've won many games just because of how underrated they are.

I've been thinking about using a Solar Auxilia Enginseer with eight servo-automata with grenade launchers as just such a counter. 165 pts (or 185/205 if you add in extra Enginseers as an anti-Cybernetica buffer) for eight Haywire shots per turn is not bad either. If you got points to spare, the Enginseers can take Graviton guns as well.

Box dread mortis is one of the best options to take tbh, especially in "small" games in the 1500 range. They are decedly cheap with auto cannons or Las cannons and can switch between anti tank and anti air on the fly.

Best anti-tank?

Primaris-Lighting
2x Kraken, Battle Servitor Control
[185]

S8 AP1 Tank Hunter Armorbane! That absolutely will put down most vehicles pretty well. Plus, it has a Lascannon.

Another option is the Quad Launchers with Shatter rounds. Heavy 4 Sunder isn't particularly nice to lob at someone, plus you can go with a SB to get Phosphex, which will ruin your opponent's day quickly.

Lightning with 4 kracken missiles, battle servitor control and ground tracking (strafing run, tank hunter and 4 s8ap1 armorbane missiles - epic)
2-3 quad mortars with shatter shells (you will glance the crap of stuff)
lascannon heavy support squad with attached siege breaker (unless you're a cool imperial fist and don't need the siege breaker for tank hunter)

These are my choices for tan hunting. You could also go for vets in a pod with melta guns/combi-metlas with machine killers, but armored ceramite can mitigate their damage output a LOT.

 Castellan Alaric wrote:
Lightning with 4 kracken missiles, battle servitor control and ground tracking (strafing run, tank hunter and 4 s8ap1 armorbane missiles - epic)
2-3 quad mortars with shatter shells (you will glance the crap of stuff)
lascannon heavy support squad with attached siege breaker (unless you're a cool imperial fist and don't need the siege breaker for tank hunter)

These are my choices for tan hunting. You could also go for vets in a pod with melta guns/combi-metlas with machine killers, but armored ceramite can mitigate their damage output a LOT.

Strafing run isn't worth the points, imo. It is BS4 already, which is plenty good enough. And wasting points on a flyer that will die after it blows its load isn't always a good idea.

But I agree with the rest, for sure.

Shot my missiles at another flyer in my game last sunday (so no strafing run) and rolled 1,1,2,2. I would always pay those 10 points for strafing run. He was playing mech and had no armor on the ground which was why I was shooting at his flyers. This game is all about stacking the deck in your favor. Yes, it is a dice game and probability is not a sure fire thing but I have a better chance to hit with all 4 missiles with BS5 against ground target and the more hits I get the more chance to pen, blow it up, etc.

I don't disagree with your analysis, I just prefer to BS5 against tanks lol

I have to say there is a fondness in my heart for a Legion Heavy Support squad and 10 Lascannons. 440 points (gotta have that Sarge with the Augry Scanner)... LOL Seven of these guys should hit, and the armor penetration roll will average a 12, and if it really follows the Mathhammer, you should get AV 10, 11, 12, 12, 13, 14, 15. That's pretty good if you ask me. But it's an infantry unit, and unless you attach an Apothecary and keep them in cover, they might get wiped out pretty fast. Still, it's a cool unit that makes your opponent pause for a second. And Rule of Cool > All in 30K.

 Tamwulf wrote:
I have to say there is a fondness in my heart for a Legion Heavy Support squad and 10 Lascannons. 440 points (gotta have that Sarge with the Augry Scanner)... LOL Seven of these guys should hit, and the armor penetration roll will average a 12, and if it really follows the Mathhammer, you should get AV 10, 11, 12, 12, 13, 14, 15. That's pretty good if you ask me. But it's an infantry unit, and unless you attach an Apothecary and keep them in cover, they might get wiped out pretty fast. Still, it's a cool unit that makes your opponent pause for a second. And Rule of Cool > All in 30K.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaa.... you got to hope, at that point, you get the first shot off against that Typhon. Otherwise, you probably won't get a chance to shoot back!

That's why you keep it at 5 guys, or split into 2 squads and present more targets. That's the reason I run the quad mortars, lascannons AND lightning. Redundancy and a tougher time for my opponent to choose targets to shoot at. Give them tank hunter (imperial fist, siege breaker) and they get that much better as a 5-man unit.

I play Raven Guard too so infiltrate from being infantry is AWESOME

There are two kinds of anti-tank, ones that can deal with Spartans, and others that deal with everything else.

Graviton rapiers, Landspeeders/Breachers/Dreads with grav guns, Lightnings with Kraken missiles, chainfists all deal with flare shielded AV14.

Everything else is handled by the above as well as by quad mortars, predators, Javelins, Fire Raptors, Laser Destroyers and Sicarian Battle Tanks.

HandofMars wrote:
There are two kinds of anti-tank, ones that can deal with Spartans, and others that deal with everything else.

Graviton rapiers, Landspeeders/Breachers/Dreads with grav guns, Lightnings with Kraken missiles, chainfists all deal with flare shielded AV14.

Everything else is handled by the above as well as by quad mortars, predators, Javelins, Fire Raptors, Laser Destroyers and Sicarian Battle Tanks.

Forgot Sicaran Venator for the anti-Spartan camp.

Eh, 2 shots at -1S is not that good.

HandofMars wrote:
Eh, 2 shots at -1S is not that good.

S10 AP1 Ordnance is not awful at about what... 30% chance per shot to pen? Then a 33% chance you pop the sucker if you pen. I mean... now that I look at the numbers, no, maybe it is best aimed at dangerous super-heavies without a Flare Shield.

Because I'm thinking about running a sicarian (because I love the model), here is the over under:

Vs av 14: 33% chance to pen 17% glance
Pen is +2 for Ap so it can crisp a vehicle on a 5+, it's ordnance so it has effectively two chances, so it has a 5/9 (56%) chance of popping a vehicle on any given pen.

That is neat but how does it compare with other options, because 40k is the game of moneyball, get the most effect for the least points and you win. To compare them let's estimate hull points take per shot, and then multiply that by shots per round, and then divide the number of points it cost by that total to get points per hull point damage per round. For the sake of comparison we will call vehicle destroyed three hull points of damage.

So sicarian has 2 x
2/3 chance of hitting x ((1/3 chance of pen x ((4/9 * 1HP) + (5/9 * 3HP))) + (1/6 * 1))
For .57 HP per shot against av 14 for a total HP per round of 1.14 HP per round of shooting, at 190 pts bare, 166pts per hull point per round

Rapier Laser destroyer is 55pts, twin linked, ordnance 1
8/9 chance of hitting X ((1/6 chance of pen x ((4/9 * 1HP) + (5/9 * 3HP))) + 1/6 * 1
for .44 HP per shot against av 14 so it's about 2.3 shots per hull point, for a final score of 126 pts per hull point per round. So a rapier battery is about 24% more efficient points wise at taking down AV 14 vehicles.

The thing that sells the Venator is the AP1 and the Shock Pulse. Pen that Typhon and even if you don't kill it, it isn't shooting that blast the next turn, which is a big deal. The Rapiers are also in the Elites slot, vs Heavy. And Laser Rapiers aren't usually the optimal, versus Shatter Quads.

No blast either on the neutron beam, so no -2 either, but all in all, I always try and hit something from a flank or rear first, unless I really don't have a choice.

 BrookM wrote:
No blast either on the neutron beam, so no -2 either, but all in all, I always try and hit something from a flank or rear first, unless I really don't have a choice.

Well, that is not always doable. And the Neutron would be at -1 Strength because of the Flare Shield, which still hurts some, but isn't awful... just not great. But not much really is against AV14 Flare Shielded stuff.