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It's not absurd. Everything AV 12 and less is vulnerable. That's a LOT of units. Yes, it takes a lot of shots to kill AV 12, but scatterbikes GET lots of shots because of range and ROF.

The scatterlaser is absolutely miscosted. It's miscosted on the bikes. It's miscosted on WK, it's miscosted on wave serpents, it's miscosted everywhere in that book. Making an Eldar list pay 200 pts more for their 20 scatterlasers will fix a lot.

It's probably fine on the Falcon, simply due to bad synergy, but that might be the exception that proves the rule.

Falcons want either a shuriken cannon, for synergy with the hull weapon, a starcannon for more AP2 or a brightlance for more S8 antitank.

jade_angel wrote:
It's probably fine on the Falcon, simply due to bad synergy, but that might be the exception that proves the rule.

Falcons want either a shuriken cannon, for synergy with the hull weapon, a starcannon for more AP2 or a brightlance for more S8 antitank.

However, it goes right back to being 20 pts if we gave all vehicles split fire.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not absurd. Everything AV 12 and less is vulnerable. That's a LOT of units. Yes, it takes a lot of shots to kill AV 12, but scatterbikes GET lots of shots because of range and ROF.

The scatterlaser is absolutely miscosted. It's miscosted on the bikes. It's miscosted on WK, it's miscosted on wave serpents, it's miscosted everywhere in that book. Making an Eldar list pay 200 pts more for their 20 scatterlasers will fix a lot.

You're the one who wants a scatter laser on a bike to cost 37pts instead of 61pts.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not absurd. Everything AV 12 and less is vulnerable. That's a LOT of units. Yes, it takes a lot of shots to kill AV 12, but scatterbikes GET lots of shots because of range and ROF.

The scatterlaser is absolutely miscosted. It's miscosted on the bikes. It's miscosted on WK, it's miscosted on wave serpents, it's miscosted everywhere in that book. Making an Eldar list pay 200 pts more for their 20 scatterlasers will fix a lot.

You're the one who wants a scatter laser on a bike to cost 37pts instead of 61pts.

That's because I think the root problem is the scatterlaser, not the jetbike. Maybe the shuricannon needs a 5pt boost as well.

We can go back to the 1 per 3 thing, but that scraps a lot of models at this point. I'd rather just make them pay. I'm usually in favor of more options balanced by cost than arbitrary restrictions.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
It's probably fine on the Falcon, simply due to bad synergy, but that might be the exception that proves the rule.

Falcons want either a shuriken cannon, for synergy with the hull weapon, a starcannon for more AP2 or a brightlance for more S8 antitank.

However, it goes right back to being 20 pts if we gave all vehicles split fire.

I'll grant that, yes.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not absurd. Everything AV 12 and less is vulnerable. That's a LOT of units. Yes, it takes a lot of shots to kill AV 12, but scatterbikes GET lots of shots because of range and ROF.

The scatterlaser is absolutely miscosted. It's miscosted on the bikes. It's miscosted on WK, it's miscosted on wave serpents, it's miscosted everywhere in that book. Making an Eldar list pay 200 pts more for their 20 scatterlasers will fix a lot.

You're the one who wants a scatter laser on a bike to cost 37pts instead of 61pts.

That's because I think the root problem is the scatterlaser, not the jetbike. Maybe the shuricannon needs a 5pt boost as well.

We can go back to the 1 per 3 thing, but that scraps a lot of models at this point. I'd rather just make them pay. I'm usually in favor of more options balanced by cost than arbitrary restrictions.

The fundamental problem is the 100% gun density, not the cost of the gun in a vacuum. So long as everyone else in the game has to take tax models to field heavy weapons and Jetbikes don't they will remain too powerful.

(I know I magnetized my Jetbikes' guns, but open letter to the rest of the Eldar community, if you've glued in scatter lasers on enough jetbikes that a 1-per-3 ruling would make it an obnoxious financial burden to buy enough jetbikes to pad out your squads, then it serves you right.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
, but open letter to the rest of the Eldar community, if you've glued in scatter lasers on enough jetbikes that a 1-per-3 ruling would make it an obnoxious financial burden to buy enough jetbikes to pad out your squads, then it serves you right.

And this is where you lose a bit of my respect. GW created the kit with options for each bike to take a heavy weapon and thusly made the instructions to do so, Players who have purchased the new kit and put Scatterlasers on every bike, were instructed to do so by the kit itself. Let's not punish the player for a modeling choice that was not only supported by GW, but encouraged.
And this comes from a player who actually has less than half his bikes modeled with Scatters.

The ONLY way to acceptably make Scatter lasers a 1-n-3 choice again is to create 2 new units: One Troop unit with 1-n-3 and one Fast Attack that can take all heavies that validates the kit.
This thankfully will not happen. The ship has sailed on the 1-n-3 option because the kit exists. What we need to do is either bump the cost of Scatters as Martel suggests (which is fair, but I am not a fan of) or make the Scatter laser less powerful by reducing its Str to 5.
Str5 firmly keeps the Scatter laser as an anti-infantry weapon and almost eliminates its anti-AV potential. It also creates a much better internal balance between the Shuricannon & Star Cannon.

While Martel and I rarely agree on Eldar (he favors price hikes, while I prefer stat/rule nerfs) we both agree that the 1-n-3 weapon loadout is not the best answer

-

Nerfing to Str 5 works as well Id say. I was just trying to avoid such a nerf. I know all too well the futility of Str 5 in 7th ed. When you're praying for 6's against rhinos, you are firmly out of the effective anti-tank regime. We can even give it AP4 for all I care. Although guardsman will care. There is something very mechanically wrong when S6 AP 6 is that much better than S5 AP 4.

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
, but open letter to the rest of the Eldar community, if you've glued in scatter lasers on enough jetbikes that a 1-per-3 ruling would make it an obnoxious financial burden to buy enough jetbikes to pad out your squads, then it serves you right.

And this is where you lose a bit of my respect. GW created the kit with options for each bike to take a heavy weapon and thusly made the instructions to do so, Players who have purchased the new kit and put Scatterlasers on every bike, were instructed to do so by the kit itself. Let's not punish the player for a modeling choice that was not only supported by GW, but encouraged.
And this comes from a player who actually has less than half his bikes modeled with Scatters.

The ONLY way to acceptably make Scatter lasers a 1-n-3 choice again is to create 2 new units: One Troop unit with 1-n-3 and one Fast Attack that can take all heavies that validates the kit.
This thankfully will not happen. The ship has sailed on the 1-n-3 option because the kit exists. What we need to do is either bump the cost of Scatters as Martel suggests (which is fair, but I am not a fan of) or make the Scatter laser less powerful by reducing its Str to 5.
Str5 firmly keeps the Scatter laser as an anti-infantry weapon and almost eliminates its anti-AV potential. It also creates a much better internal balance between the Shuricannon & Star Cannon.

While Martel and I rarely agree on Eldar (he favors price hikes, while I prefer stat/rule nerfs) we both agree that the 1-n-3 weapon loadout is not the best answer

-

And again. The fact that GW shipped the kit with that many weapons doesn't reflect what they ought to be able to do in the game any more than the fact that they ship War Walkers with ten guns means that they should be able to take ten guns.

GW deletes options, punishes players for building the kits as shipped, punishes players for buying the wrong kits in the first place, and writes counterintuitive sets of restrictions all the time. I don't see how capping upgrade guns on Jetbikes is any different from taking peoples' 5e GK armies and nerfing the PAGK into unusability, or rewriting the squad size requirements on Henchmen warbands, or deleting army-wide strategy-enabling characters from the DE book.

It isn't ideal for the people who have built lots of scatterbikes, no, but choosing to ignore the basic problem in favour of a partial band-aid patch is why 40k gets rules bloat and awful balance decisions in the first place. Attempting to not rock peoples' armies too much is why releasing ever more powerful tools to counter the last set of powerful tools has become GW's basic release model.

1 per 3 doesn't address the scatterlaser on platforms such as the warwalker. Appropriately costing the scatterlaser does.

Martel732 wrote:
1 per 3 doesn't address the scatterlaser on platforms such as the warwalker. Appropriately costing the scatterlaser does.

...Because the scatterlaser on other platforms is dramatically less of a problem, perhaps? If a Wave Serpent's scatterlaser is that much of an issue to you I'd hate to see your views on the Chimera (half the price, twice the guns. GG.).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
1 per 3 doesn't address the scatterlaser on platforms such as the warwalker. Appropriately costing the scatterlaser does.

...Because the scatterlaser on other platforms is dramatically less of a problem, perhaps? If a Wave Serpent's scatterlaser is that much of an issue to you I'd hate to see your views on the Chimera (half the price, twice the guns. GG.).

The wave serpent can move 12" and fire two guns at full BS, has the serpent shield, and AV 12 sides AND the ability to jink.

The Chimera has to remain immobile to fire two guns effectively. That's a massive limitation. And the weapons are strictly inferior.

I'm of the view that the scatterlaser is a problem on every platform. It's performance to cost ratio is crazy. It's been an overpowered weapon for a long, long time. Savvy Eldar players were able to leverage this weapon's brokenness to be mediocre in 5th, when everything else was stacked against them.

(On War Walkers specifically: A Land Speeder with an assault cannon is 65pts, has four S6/AP4/Rending shots, three S5/AP4 shots, can Jink, can Deep Strike, can move 12" and fire one gun, can turbo-boost, and has AV10 and two hull points. A War Walker with two scatter lasers is 60pts, has eight S6/AP- shots, can't Jink, has a built-in 5++, can't Deep Stirke, can walk 6" and fire both guns, is Open-Topped, and has AV10 and two hull points. If you're operating under the delusion those two units aren't broadly comparable you're grossly overvaluing the S5 to S6 hop, and grossly undervaluing AP4, Rending, Jink, and the ability to move more than 6" a turn.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
1 per 3 doesn't address the scatterlaser on platforms such as the warwalker. Appropriately costing the scatterlaser does.

...Because the scatterlaser on other platforms is dramatically less of a problem, perhaps? If a Wave Serpent's scatterlaser is that much of an issue to you I'd hate to see your views on the Chimera (half the price, twice the guns. GG.).

Wave Serpents can get twin-linked Scatter Lasers.

Chimeras get a hull mounted(read: unable to target beyond a fixed arc) Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer, a turret mounted Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, or Multi-Laser(Scatter Laser), and then they get two Lasgun(S3 AP- Rapid Fire with a 24" range) Arrays that have a fixed targeting arc and require troops to be mounted within in order to fire them.

You really want to compare the two?

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
1 per 3 doesn't address the scatterlaser on platforms such as the warwalker. Appropriately costing the scatterlaser does.

...Because the scatterlaser on other platforms is dramatically less of a problem, perhaps? If a Wave Serpent's scatterlaser is that much of an issue to you I'd hate to see your views on the Chimera (half the price, twice the guns. GG.).

The wave serpent can move 12" and fire two guns at full BS, has the serpent shield, and AV 12 sides AND the ability to jink.

The Chimera has to remain immobile to fire two guns effectively. That's a massive limitation. And the weapons are strictly inferior.

I'm of the view that the scatterlaser is a problem on every platform. It's performance to cost ratio is crazy. It's been an overpowered weapon for a long, long time. Savvy Eldar players were able to leverage this weapon's brokenness to be mediocre in 5th, when everything else was stacked against them.

The Wave Serpent can move 6" and fire two guns at full BS. It hasn't been able to move 12" and fire both guns since 4th when 'defensive weapon' meant S6 and below.

It's also slightly shorter-ranged than the Chimera and is 60pts more expensive if you want comparable firepower. And can't get camo netting. And has no fire points.

You've been impressively inconsistent on whether hull-pointing out vehicles is more relevant than being able to one-shot them, and on whether the hop from 24" range to 36" range is relevant or not. If you'd like to argue that a Wave Serpent is better than one Chimera go ahead. It is. Woo. Yay. Cool. Now argue that the Wave Serpent is better than the two Chimeras it costs as much as. Or possibly the Chimera and the heavy weapon teams that sit inside it and give it 2x the firepower instead of equivalent firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
1 per 3 doesn't address the scatterlaser on platforms such as the warwalker. Appropriately costing the scatterlaser does.

...Because the scatterlaser on other platforms is dramatically less of a problem, perhaps? If a Wave Serpent's scatterlaser is that much of an issue to you I'd hate to see your views on the Chimera (half the price, twice the guns. GG.).

Wave Serpents can get twin-linked Scatter Lasers.

Chimeras get a hull mounted(read: unable to target beyond a fixed arc) Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer, a turret mounted Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, or Multi-Laser(Scatter Laser), and then they get two Lasgun(S3 AP- Rapid Fire with a 24" range) Arrays that have a fixed targeting arc and require troops to be mounted within in order to fire them.

You really want to compare the two?

I want to compare two Chimeras (130pts) to one Wave Serpent with a twin-linked scatter laser and a shuriken cannon (125pts). If you want to argue that a 125pt vehicle needs a nerf because it's better than a 65pt vehicle then I can't help you.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(On War Walkers specifically: A Land Speeder with an assault cannon is 65pts, has four S6/AP4/Rending shots, three S5/AP4 shots, can Jink, can Deep Strike, can move 12" and fire one gun, can turbo-boost, and has AV10 and two hull points. A War Walker with two scatter lasers is 60pts, has eight S6/AP- shots, can't Jink, has a built-in 5++, can't Deep Stirke, can walk 6" and fire both guns, is Open-Topped, and has AV10 and two hull points. If you're operating under the delusion those two units aren't broadly comparable you're grossly overvaluing the S5 to S6 hop, and grossly undervaluing AP4, Rending, Jink, and the ability to move more than 6" a turn.)

We can agree to disagree. 5++ is much better than jinking for non-Ravenwing. AP4 is garbage, and I have 16 years of playing under the AP system to back this opinion up. Warwalkers have battle focus, so they can also move more than 6". This leaves rending. Four rending shots aren't enough to rely on, and so I basically discount it. Rending, like AP 4, is also neutered significantly by cover. Mass wounds can be relied upon statistically speaking.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
1 per 3 doesn't address the scatterlaser on platforms such as the warwalker. Appropriately costing the scatterlaser does.

...Because the scatterlaser on other platforms is dramatically less of a problem, perhaps? If a Wave Serpent's scatterlaser is that much of an issue to you I'd hate to see your views on the Chimera (half the price, twice the guns. GG.).

The wave serpent can move 12" and fire two guns at full BS, has the serpent shield, and AV 12 sides AND the ability to jink.

The Chimera has to remain immobile to fire two guns effectively. That's a massive limitation. And the weapons are strictly inferior.

I'm of the view that the scatterlaser is a problem on every platform. It's performance to cost ratio is crazy. It's been an overpowered weapon for a long, long time. Savvy Eldar players were able to leverage this weapon's brokenness to be mediocre in 5th, when everything else was stacked against them.

The Wave Serpent can move 6" and fire two guns at full BS. It hasn't been able to move 12" and fire both guns since 4th when 'defensive weapon' meant S6 and below.

It's also slightly shorter-ranged than the Chimera and is 60pts more expensive if you want comparable firepower. And can't get camo netting. And has no fire points.

Oh noes, Chimeras get camo netting!

What can Wave Serpents get again for survival tricks? And let's not forget about Jinking, right?

You've been impressively inconsistent on whether hull-pointing out vehicles is more relevant than being able to one-shot them, and on whether the hop from 24" range to 36" range is relevant or not. If you'd like to argue that a Wave Serpent is better than one Chimera go ahead. It is. Woo. Yay. Cool. Now argue that the Wave Serpent is better than the two Chimeras it costs as much as. Or possibly the Chimera and the heavy weapon teams that sit inside it and give it 2x the firepower instead of equivalent firepower.

In order for you to have more than one Heavy Weapon Team sitting inside a Chimera, you need to be placing a Heavy Weapons Squad which purchased a Chimera as a Dedicated Transport(which they can't do, and Chimeras aren't Fast Attack choices) inside.

Anyways, humoring your ill-informed comparison:
That means you have placed a unit taking 6 spots(Heavy Weapon Teams are Bulky) into a vehicle where only two of those will be able to take advantage of the Firing Point.
You then have one model remaining that can fire the Lasgun Array...which means a single S3 AP- shot.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
1 per 3 doesn't address the scatterlaser on platforms such as the warwalker. Appropriately costing the scatterlaser does.

...Because the scatterlaser on other platforms is dramatically less of a problem, perhaps? If a Wave Serpent's scatterlaser is that much of an issue to you I'd hate to see your views on the Chimera (half the price, twice the guns. GG.).

Wave Serpents can get twin-linked Scatter Lasers.

Chimeras get a hull mounted(read: unable to target beyond a fixed arc) Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer, a turret mounted Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, or Multi-Laser(Scatter Laser), and then they get two Lasgun(S3 AP- Rapid Fire with a 24" range) Arrays that have a fixed targeting arc and require troops to be mounted within in order to fire them.

You really want to compare the two?

I want to compare two Chimeras (130pts) to one Wave Serpent with a twin-linked scatter laser and a shuriken cannon (125pts). If you want to argue that a 120pt vehicle needs a nerf because it's better than a 65pt vehicle then I can't help you.

So your comparison is two barebones Chimeras(read: no Camo Netting, which is a 15 point upgrade, or any upgrades of any kind...not sure why you were complaining about Camo Netting anyways since it is a simple +1 to a Cover Save, even out in the open.) versus a Wave Serpent with an upgraded weapon option.

In any regards, I don't think you quite grasp the reason why I made the statement I did. The thing you're complaining about("half the price, twice the guns") is not strictly true.
A Chimera is only a Dedicated Transport. The IG book has no provision for them to be taken as a Fast Attack choice.

S 6/7 are the panacea strengths in 7th ed. Unfortunately for the Imperium, the auto cannon has half the shots and comes on drastically inferior platforms.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(On War Walkers specifically: A Land Speeder with an assault cannon is 65pts, has four S6/AP4/Rending shots, three S5/AP4 shots, can Jink, can Deep Strike, can move 12" and fire one gun, can turbo-boost, and has AV10 and two hull points. A War Walker with two scatter lasers is 60pts, has eight S6/AP- shots, can't Jink, has a built-in 5++, can't Deep Stirke, can walk 6" and fire both guns, is Open-Topped, and has AV10 and two hull points. If you're operating under the delusion those two units aren't broadly comparable you're grossly overvaluing the S5 to S6 hop, and grossly undervaluing AP4, Rending, Jink, and the ability to move more than 6" a turn.)

We can agree to disagree. 5++ is much better than jinking for non-Ravenwing. AP4 is garbage, and I have 16 years of playing under the AP system to back this opinion up. Warwalkers have battle focus, so they can also move more than 6". This leaves rending. Four rending shots aren't enough to rely on, and so I basically discount it. Rending, like AP 4, is also neutered significantly by cover. Mass wounds can be relied upon statistically speaking.

So if we take your axiomatic/anecdotal insistence built up over sixten years of playing that AP4 and Rending are irrelevant the Scatter Laser is more powerful than your shooting. If we take my axiomatic/anecdotal insistence built up over twelve years of playing that AP4 and Rending are very relevant the Scatter Laser is roughly comparable to your shooting.

I'm sorry, but this looks to me like you're suggesting that the mediocre units in the Eldar army are overpowered because there exist matchups (completely cover/Invul-dependent armies with AV11 vehicles) in which they're better than the equivalent Imperial shooting, despite the fact that they're equivalent to or worse than the equivalent Imperial shooting against pretty much everything else.

The problem is Scatterbikes specifically, not the scatter laser in general. Eldar vehicles are dramatically more expensive than their Imperial equivalents, and frequently dramatically underarmed and/or squishier for the price; they're kept functional by their effective mid-power guns and the power of the stuff they can haul around. The existence of the scatter laser doesn't override the fact that the Eldar are paying 2-3x as much as the Imperium for their transports, don't have ordnance, and can't spam anything to even a fraction of the same level.

The only Eldar vehicles that are actually overpowered and desperately in need of nerfing rather than merely somewhere between pretty good (the War Walker) and awful (the Firestorm) are the Warp Hunter and the Lynx, and both of those only because they happen to haul underpriced D-weapons around.

"very relevant the Scatter Laser is roughly comparable to your shooting. "

I already showed how its not even close, really.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Oh noes, Chimeras get camo netting!

What can Wave Serpents get again for survival tricks? And let's not forget about Jinking, right?

My ability to pay 15pts for a 5++ or jink for a 4+ cover (negating all the advantages of my slightly superior firepower) are an improvement over your ability to sit behind a dirt-cheap Aegis line and have a 3+ cover save that doesn't inhibit your firepower?

In order for you to have more than one Heavy Weapon Team sitting inside a Chimera, you need to be placing a Heavy Weapons Squad which purchased a Chimera as a Dedicated Transport(which they can't do, and Chimeras aren't Fast Attack choices) inside.

Anyways, humoring your ill-informed comparison:
That means you have placed a unit taking 6 spots(Heavy Weapon Teams are Bulky) into a vehicle where only two of those will be able to take advantage of the Firing Point.
You then have one model remaining that can fire the Lasgun Array...which means a single S3 AP- shot.

Will concede I may be overestimating the Chimera's utility as a gun-bunker for the Guard given that I have more live play experience with Inquisitorial Chimeras (which can have Joakero (lascannons) and Gun-Servitors inside pretty easily).

That said I put it to you that having access to a transport with fire points for squads with special weapons is a massive upgrade over having squads with special weapons and no open-topped/fire-point transports (unless I want to ally in the worst Codex in the game) to put them in.

So your comparison is two barebones Chimeras(read: no Camo Netting, which is a 15 point upgrade, or any upgrades of any kind...not sure why you were complaining about Camo Netting anyways since it is a simple +1 to a Cover Save, even out in the open.) versus a Wave Serpent with an upgraded weapon option.

In any regards, I don't think you quite grasp the reason why I made the statement I did. The thing you're complaining about("half the price, twice the guns") is not strictly true.
A Chimera is only a Dedicated Transport. The IG book has no provision for them to be taken as a Fast Attack choice.

I attempted to construct an environment in which the Wave Serpent was upgraded until it had armament comparable to the Chimera's and checked how many Chimeras' worth of points it'd be. If you'd rather compare them in a vacuum (the Chimera has seven S5-6 shots at 36" range, the Wave Serpent has three S6 shots at 24" range and two S4 shots at 12" range) then you're going to have to explain to me why 45pts isn't a fair price for a more durable vehicle with worse guns and no fire points.

As far as the 'only a Dedicated Transport' v. Fast Attack choice question that may be the most irrelevant part of this comparison. A Guard CAD can take a theoretical 50 Chimeras versus a theoretical 15 Wave Serpents. Three Wave Serpents per detachment can be taken without units, the rest need a 70-150pt unit to haul around. No Chimeras can be taken without units, the rest need a 50-100ish-pt unit to haul around. Woo.

(No, seriously, why would you ever, ever take a Wave Serpent as a Fast Attack choice? Vypers (one of the worst units in the Codex, which makes them on the border between mediocre and bad by the standards of most armies) are better at toting heavy weapons in Fast Attack, War Walkers are better at toting heavy weapons more generally, Warp Spiders, the aircraft, and Swooping Hawks are better at being powerful-to-OP in Fast Attack, there are zero units in the Codex or any allied Codex that want to ride in a Wave Serpent and don't either have one as a Dedicated Transport or have a better transport in their own book, and Shining Spears are better at being cool in Fast Attack. Wave Serpents' ability to be taken as a Fast Attack choice is the moral equivalent of Chimeras' Amphibious rule; it's technically there, but it's so irrelevant it may as well not be there.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"very relevant the Scatter Laser is roughly comparable to your shooting. "

I already showed how its not even close, really.

You're operating under the assumption AP4 and Rending are irrelevant. I'm operating under the assumption that AP4 and Rending are relevant. Until either of us chooses to accept that the other person's math and anecdotal logic is enough to override our own this isn't going to change.

That said I will ask when the last time you saw Mechdar perform competitively was. I suspect it was before 7th's nerfs to scatter lasers, the Serpent Shield, and Jink, but if you've got a more recent one I'd love to hear it.

No one would use mechdar over WK/scatbike/warpspider. I agree on this. However, that doesn't stop other Eldar units equipped with scatterlasers from overperforming for their price point.

AP4 is irrelevant in any quantity. I'm not budging on this. Cover is too easy to get and there is too much 3+/2+ armor in the game. AP 4 is non-benefit. It's always better in the general case to have more shots and more strength. 4+ armor units with no cover is just way too rare. If we have all vehicles a 4+ armor save, things change quickly.

Rending is only truly useful in high volume. A single turn of misfortune in an IG list can generate rending equal to all the rending a marine list can pump out over a game. Assault cannons, due to cost, range, and platform do not provide a significant amount of rending imo. If you can show me a list where the Imperium can field statistically relevant amount of rending via assault cannon AND have the list be good in a general sense, I might budge on this. But as it stands, I consider the assault cannon trash due to these factors.

Martel732 wrote:
No one would use mechdar over WK/scatbike/warpspider. I agree on this. However, that doesn't stop other Eldar units equipped with scatterlasers from overperforming for their price point.

AP4 is irrelevant in any quantity. I'm not budging on this. Cover is too easy to get and there is too much 3+/2+ armor in the game.

Rending is only truly useful in high volume. A single turn of misfortune in an IG list can generate rending equal to all the rending a marine list can pump out over a game. Assault cannons, due to cost, range, and platform do not provide a significant amount of rending imo.

Okay. I can see I'm not getting anywhere. Next question. If the problem with the scatter laser is the fact that a four-shot S6 weapon exists for 10pts in the first place are you going to propose making Valkyries and Chimeras 10pts more expensive? They've got the same gun.

Supplemental question: Why is an Eldar Codex where a Scatter Laser War Walker costs 80pts and a Jetbike Scatter Laser costs 37pts prefereable to you than an Eldar Codex where a Scatter Laser War Walker costs 60pts and a Jetbike Scatter Laser costs 61pts? Why is keeping the Troops unit's price-per-gun performance equivalent to the Heavy Support unit's a positive thing?

This whole discussion looks to me like you're asserting that the Codex as a whole is underpriced because there exist units within it that are underpriced, ignoring the fact that the internal balance of the book is actually pretty bad. There are mediocre and bad units in the book, the Eldar aren't all sunshine and rainbows. If you want to attack scatterbikes, D-weapons, and Wraithknights that's all well and good and I'm absolutely in favour of that. If you want to start going after War Walkers and Wave Serpents you've wandered out of "reasonable Eldar nerfs" territory and into "this Codex must be made nonfunctional in vengeance for the OPness of scatterbikes" territory. Taking away the OP units is reasonable. Leaving the OP units in place while nerfing everything else is dumb.

If you want to complain that the Eldar get to do certain things better than the Imperium more generally I could start to ask questions about 2+ armour, Storm Shields, AV13+, Ordnance, Drop Pods, S/T 4, Assault Vehicles, melee characters that don't exist just to be turned into a bloody pulp, Eternal Warrior, special weapons spread out amongst multiple squads instead of required to be clustered together in single uniformly-armed squads, 35pt transports, and Fire Points.

And that's just out of the Blood Angels book.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Oh noes, Chimeras get camo netting!

What can Wave Serpents get again for survival tricks? And let's not forget about Jinking, right?

My ability to pay 15pts for a 5++ or jink for a 4+ cover (negating all the advantages of my slightly superior firepower) are an improvement over your ability to sit behind a dirt-cheap Aegis line and have a 3+ cover save that doesn't inhibit your firepower?

A 5++ Invulnerable Save is a save that can't be negated by any weapon barring D with a lucky roll.

A Wave Serpent Jinking gets you almost as high of a cover save as a Chimera taking a 15 point upgrade(Camo Netting) and parked behind a 50 point Fortification.

Also, it's highly entertaining that we've gone from "Chimera bring as much firepower as a Wave Serpent and can get Camo Netting, so why are Wave Serpents ridiculous?" to "Chimera with Camo Netting behind Aegis Lines don't suffer a penalty to their firepower for their survival traits!"

Because they actually do suffer a penalty. It's called "They have to sit there and can be hit from behind".

In order for you to have more than one Heavy Weapon Team sitting inside a Chimera, you need to be placing a Heavy Weapons Squad which purchased a Chimera as a Dedicated Transport(which they can't do, and Chimeras aren't Fast Attack choices) inside.

Anyways, humoring your ill-informed comparison:
That means you have placed a unit taking 6 spots(Heavy Weapon Teams are Bulky) into a vehicle where only two of those will be able to take advantage of the Firing Point.
You then have one model remaining that can fire the Lasgun Array...which means a single S3 AP- shot.

Will concede I may be overestimating the Chimera's utility as a gun-bunker for the Guard given that I have more live play experience with Inquisitorial Chimeras (which can have Joakero (lascannons) and Gun-Servitors inside pretty easily).

That said I put it to you that having access to a transport with fire points for squads with special weapons is a massive upgrade over having squads with special weapons and no open-topped/fire-point transports (unless I want to ally in the worst Codex in the game) to put them in.

A single special weapon in a standard Infantry Squad or 3 Special Weapons in a Veteran Squad.

Two models can fire out of the top hatch of a Chimera.

So your comparison is two barebones Chimeras(read: no Camo Netting, which is a 15 point upgrade, or any upgrades of any kind...not sure why you were complaining about Camo Netting anyways since it is a simple +1 to a Cover Save, even out in the open.) versus a Wave Serpent with an upgraded weapon option.

In any regards, I don't think you quite grasp the reason why I made the statement I did. The thing you're complaining about("half the price, twice the guns") is not strictly true.
A Chimera is only a Dedicated Transport. The IG book has no provision for them to be taken as a Fast Attack choice.

I attempted to construct an environment in which the Wave Serpent was upgraded until it had armament comparable to the Chimera's and checked how many Chimeras' worth of points it'd be. If you'd rather compare them in a vacuum (the Chimera has seven S5-6 shots at 36" range, the Wave Serpent has three S6 shots at 24" range and two S4 shots at 12" range) then you're going to have to explain to me why 45pts isn't a fair price for a more durable vehicle with worse guns and no fire points.

A Chimera has 3 shots with a Multi-laser(S6 AP6) and 3 with a Heavy Bolter(S5 AP4). Not sure where you're getting 7 shots from.

Additionally, as I mentioned earlier, the Heavy Bolter is a hull mounted weapon. That means you have a 45 degree 'slice' that it can fire within versus the 360 of the turret.

As far as the 'only a Dedicated Transport' v. Fast Attack choice question that may be the most irrelevant part of this comparison. A Guard CAD can take a theoretical 50 Chimeras versus a theoretical 15 Wave Serpents. Three Wave Serpents per detachment can be taken without units, the rest need a 70-150pt unit to haul around. No Chimeras can be taken without units, the rest need a 50-100ish-pt unit to haul around. Woo.

It's actually exceedingly relevant, because there are comparatively few units within the Imperial Guard book that can take Chimeras. And since they are strictly Dedicated Transports, it means that none of the units that would really excel with Gun Bunkering(Special Weapon Squads and Heavy Weapon Squads) do not even have access to such things.

(No, seriously, why would you ever, ever take a Wave Serpent as a Fast Attack choice? Vypers (one of the worst units in the Codex, which makes them on the border between mediocre and bad by the standards of most armies) are better at toting heavy weapons in Fast Attack, War Walkers are better at toting heavy weapons more generally, Warp Spiders, the aircraft, and Swooping Hawks are better at being powerful-to-OP in Fast Attack, there are zero units in the Codex or any allied Codex that want to ride in a Wave Serpent and don't either have one as a Dedicated Transport or have a better transport in their own book, and Shining Spears are better at being cool in Fast Attack. Wave Serpents' ability to be taken as a Fast Attack choice is the moral equivalent of Chimeras' Amphibious rule; it's technically there, but it's so irrelevant it may as well not be there.)

Whether you're taking them as a Fast Attack choice isn't really relevant. The examples you gave were invalid and can't be done outside of allying things or running a FW specific list.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No one would use mechdar over WK/scatbike/warpspider. I agree on this. However, that doesn't stop other Eldar units equipped with scatterlasers from overperforming for their price point.

AP4 is irrelevant in any quantity. I'm not budging on this. Cover is too easy to get and there is too much 3+/2+ armor in the game.

Rending is only truly useful in high volume. A single turn of misfortune in an IG list can generate rending equal to all the rending a marine list can pump out over a game. Assault cannons, due to cost, range, and platform do not provide a significant amount of rending imo.

Okay. I can see I'm not getting anywhere. Next question. If the problem with the scatter laser is the fact that a four-shot S6 weapon exists for 10pts in the first place are you going to propose making Valkyries and Chimeras 10pts more expensive? They've got the same gun.

Multi-lasers are 3 shots. Not 4.

Multi-laser is only 3 shots.

"Why is keeping the Troops unit's price-per-gun performance equivalent to the Heavy Support unit's a positive thing? "

Because I think the scatterlaser is a 20pt weapon in the general case. If you really want to make it one per three, that's fine, but it's still a 20 pt weapon. It might cease to be a 20 pt weapon in 8th ed, but as it stands, it's absolutely the equivalent of the assault cannon.

The Eldar codex is underpriced across the board for the most part. Only the most undercosted units are obviously use d competitively. My compalaint is not the Eldar doing things better, it's how cheap they get to do them. Almost everything you listed off for the BA is overcosted in the 7th ed game. Overcosted and largely ineffective, actually. Or the BA wouldn't be terrible.

Martel732 wrote:
...The Eldar codex is underpriced across the board for the most part...

Okay. I suggest you go read the Eldar Codex. I may be done laughing by the time you get back.

I've read it. Laugh all you want. It's an amazing book. I guess we fundamentally disagree about how Eldar should be costed.

Martel732 wrote:
I've read it. Laugh all you want. It's an amazing book. I guess we fundamentally disagree about how Eldar should be costed.

I've been playing the army for twelve years, though three books, through fat times and lean. I've got some semblance of an understanding of how the internal balance of the army works. And the assertion that this book is undercosted across the board is one of the most absurd bits of tripe I've ever had the misfortune to read.

This Eldar book has some of the worst internal balance in the game today. Units range from incredibly undercosted and brutally powerful (Scatterbikes, the Wraithknight), through merely good (Farseers, War Walkers), down into mediocre/sort of usable (Guardians, Vypers) before plunging headlong into the toilet from whence no light can escape (Storm Guardians, the Fire Prism). You want to cut down the overpowered units, cool. You want to tweak the rest of it, cool. You want to nerfbat the whole thing? What's next? A price hike for Ork Boyz? Nerfs to Wyches?

I hope you mean Wraithknight. If you think the Wraithlord is horribly OP then we have a serious disagreement.