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pm713 wrote:
I hope you mean Wraithknight. If you think the Wraithlord is horribly OP then we have a serious disagreement.

Typo corrected. The Wraithlord is not horribly OP, the Wraithknight is. The Wraithseer might be, but he's also more expensive than a Land Raider and doesn't have a spot in the meta-detachment. (As for other prefix-Wraith things Wraithguard are, Wraithblades are really not.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I hope you mean Wraithknight. If you think the Wraithlord is horribly OP then we have a serious disagreement.

Typo corrected. The Wraithlord is not horribly OP, the Wraithknight is. The Wraithseer might be, but he's also more expensive than a Land Raider and doesn't have a spot in the meta-detachment. (As for other prefix-Wraith things Wraithguard are, Wraithblades are really not.)

I've never really seen the Wraithseer as that OP. Really expensive and it gets forced to go alone and doesn't have any ranged weapons without extreme cost.

pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I hope you mean Wraithknight. If you think the Wraithlord is horribly OP then we have a serious disagreement.

Typo corrected. The Wraithlord is not horribly OP, the Wraithknight is. The Wraithseer might be, but he's also more expensive than a Land Raider and doesn't have a spot in the meta-detachment. (As for other prefix-Wraith things Wraithguard are, Wraithblades are really not.)

I've never really seen the Wraithseer as that OP. Really expensive and it gets forced to go alone and doesn't have any ranged weapons without extreme cost.

He's a move-and-fire-capable D-cannon on a platform that's difficult for a lot of armies to deal with (T8/3+ MC). He's certainly good, but his OPness is borderline if it's there at all.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I hope you mean Wraithknight. If you think the Wraithlord is horribly OP then we have a serious disagreement.

Typo corrected. The Wraithlord is not horribly OP, the Wraithknight is. The Wraithseer might be, but he's also more expensive than a Land Raider and doesn't have a spot in the meta-detachment. (As for other prefix-Wraith things Wraithguard are, Wraithblades are really not.)

I've never really seen the Wraithseer as that OP. Really expensive and it gets forced to go alone and doesn't have any ranged weapons without extreme cost.

He's a move-and-fire-capable D-cannon on a platform that's difficult for a lot of armies to deal with (T8/3+ MC). He's certainly good, but his OPness is borderline if it's there at all.

It's mobile D, but it's mobile small blast D. He'll trade efficiently against land raiders make scat bikes spend some time shooting at him. He'll also die to a couple salvos of krak, grav, fusion, D, etc.

I really don't see wraithguard as being all that OP. They're certainly good, but, well... D-scythes put out a ton of hits and anhilate whatever they overwatch against, but the -1 to the D table hurts more than you might think. I usually webway my wraithguard in, and I dropped the d-scythes after their vulnerability to unlucky rolls and difficulty positioning all templates when deepstriking became too much of a liability. I've started saving point by using wraith guard, and I've found that they perform more consistantly than the d-scythes. Non-d-scythe wraithguard are still really good, but they're much more susceptible to assault, and both varieties are susceptible to AP3 shooting. Sure, you have to use quality firepower to take them out, but you kill off 35(?) points every time you land a kill. That's a rhino per kill.

I must admit, I've been reading through this thread and I think that all options for limiting the efficacy of scatbikes are equally viable...provided the implications for any changes are followed through.

1-in-3
If Scatbikes are made 1-in-3, then that solves that problem neatly. Eldar Jetbikes are fast obsec troops that are reasonably durable. They will still have a solid place in eldar lists without the ability to mass S6 firepower. It would bring a bit more balance back to the codex which would be nice. Lots of people have too many Scatbikes to make this popular, but the composition of competitive armies changes between codices so why is that a surprise? Also, I can't see GW being too angsty about people buying even more Jetbike kits...

Re-cost Scatter Lasers
Also solves the problem with Scatbikes. Also nerfs a lot of other units that don't need nerfing, so if you're re-costing the Scatterlaser then those units that are made sub-par by this need a corresponding points decrease. Simple. If people complain for some reason that the eldar codex has no (or very few) dud units, then isn't that what all codices should be like? Where's the sense in making codices where only a few units are viable, just because other codices are in that crap position.

Make Scatterlasers S5
Also viable, and personally I kind of like this to re-balance the Scatterlaser/Shuricannon/Starcannon trio (especially if Starcannons are S7). Would need to do some work on the Bright Lance to balance that against a S7 Starcannon, but overall it's sound.

I like strength 5 on the scatterlaser because of how it lines up with starcannons and disintegrators. Slowly losing rate of fire in favor of gaining damage output per shot.

I don't really take the shuriken cannon into account here because it is an assault weapon with a 1 foot shorter range.

I think of the three, I like the idea of S5 Scatterlasers the best.

The others, of course, would need some tweaking: this might be reasonable.

Scatterlaser: R36 S5 AP- Heavy 4
Shuriken Cannon: Unchanged (*)
Starcannon: R36 S7 AP2 Heavy 2
Brightlance: R48 S8 AP2 Heavy 1, Lance
Eldar Missile Launcher: Unchanged.

(*): Bladestorm would be reduced to AP3-on-a-6, but the shuricannon should stay Assault 3, not Heavy 3, because of issues for Harlequins and Corsairs if that changes. Most other platforms that can use it are Relentless anyway.

I'd have been tempted to make the Brightlance AP1 as well, but at that point it becomes obviously better than the Lascannon, rather than the tradeoff that it has now, where the Brightlance is better against AV14, while the Lascannon is better against AV12 and below. Also, the Scatterlaser is now AP- because seriously, do Boyz, Cultists and Gaunts need to be kicked in the butt more?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I hope you mean Wraithknight. If you think the Wraithlord is horribly OP then we have a serious disagreement.

Typo corrected. The Wraithlord is not horribly OP, the Wraithknight is. The Wraithseer might be, but he's also more expensive than a Land Raider and doesn't have a spot in the meta-detachment. (As for other prefix-Wraith things Wraithguard are, Wraithblades are really not.)

You can fit a Wraithseer into the Craftworld Warhost, Doom of Mymeara includes a whole mass of formations including one specifically for the Wraithseer and Wraithblades and the Pale Courts Battlehost can be customised to include almost anything, including a Wraithseer.

Of course with Eldar duel CAD is actually better anyway.

"Also nerfs a lot of other units that don't need nerfing,"

I agree with your assessment other than this. The units in question don't have to take the scatterlaser.

Martel732 wrote:
"Also nerfs a lot of other units that don't need nerfing,"

I agree with your assessment other than this. The units in question don't have to take the scatterlaser.

And I'd even argue that other than War Walkers, most of them don't particularly want to. Vypers, Wave Serpents and Wraithlords are probably better off with Shuriken Cannons, Falcons probably want Starcannons or Brightlances.

War Walkers wouldn't be hurt excessively by a cost boost on Scatterlasers, I think, because they'd have all the other choices. Am I wrong on that assessment?

jade_angel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Also nerfs a lot of other units that don't need nerfing,"

I agree with your assessment other than this. The units in question don't have to take the scatterlaser.

And I'd even argue that other than War Walkers, most of them don't particularly want to. Vypers, Wave Serpents and Wraithlords are probably better off with Shuriken Cannons, Falcons probably want Starcannons or Brightlances.

War Walkers wouldn't be hurt excessively by a cost boost on Scatterlasers, I think, because they'd have all the other choices. Am I wrong on that assessment?

I'm going to try and turn this logic back around a bit. If AP and Rending are irrelevant, the shuriken cannon is a massive downgrade on the scatter laser, since the only other differences are one fewer shot and 12" less range. Why would you ever want a shuriken cannon under that premise?

Nobody I play against ever uses the shuriken cannon. So I guess no one does want it. That's why scatterlaser should cost more.

The Eldar can also field enough shuriken cannons cheaply enough to make the pseudo rending useful as opposed to IoM trying to get rending on the field w/o misfortune.

Martel732 wrote:
Nobody I play against ever uses the shuriken cannon. So I guess no one does want it. That's why scatterlaser should cost more.

The Eldar can also field enough shuriken cannons cheaply enough to make the pseudo rending useful as opposed to IoM trying to get rending on the field w/o misfortune.

So if the shuriken cannon is a waste of time and space that should always be swapped for the scatter laser (since it's a free upgrade (+5pts on the Wave Serpent, but free elsewhere)) a 10pt price hike to the scatter laser would be a clear nerf to Vypers, Wave Serpents, War Walkers, and Falcons.

Fine with me. Eldar can endure a few nerfs. The scatterlaser is very clearly a 20 pt weapon to me.

My ultimate goal would be to get fewer Eldar models on the table, make existing Eldar models less effective or make existing Eldar models more fragile. Boosting the price on the scatterlaser does one of the first two depending on the choices made by the Eldar player.

I think a 10 pt price hike on an overperforming weapon certainly falls under the category "reasonable". We'll change it back if 8th ed changes things up. But an anti-infantry weapon that spams tons of wounds and destroys AV 12 and less from 36" out is very, very valuable.

Martel732 wrote:
Fine with me. Eldar can endure a few nerfs. The scatterlaser is very clearly a 20 pt weapon to me.

My ultimate goal would be to get fewer Eldar models on the table, make existing Eldar models less effective or make existing Eldar models more fragile. Boosting the price on the scatterlaser does one of the first two depending on the choices made by the Eldar player.

And this is the part where to me you're departing from 'reasonable Eldar nerfs' into an uninformed spite-fuelled rampage. You've decided that an army that's already low-model-count and fragile needs to get made more low-model-count and fragile because it has about three very overpowered units, and your mode of execution is going to hit the non-OP units much harder than the OP units.

Martel732 wrote:
Fine with me. Eldar can endure a few nerfs. The scatterlaser is very clearly a 20 pt weapon to me.

My ultimate goal would be to get fewer Eldar models on the table, make existing Eldar models less effective or make existing Eldar models more fragile. Boosting the price on the scatterlaser does one of the first two depending on the choices made by the Eldar player.

And this is where you and I differ. While I agree that the SL in its current iteration is worth 20ppm, I'd rather see it nerfed to Str5 than to have to pay an extra 100+pts per army just to use the same models I have

It's the same with the WK. Sure it is worth 400pts, but I want to use as many models as I can. Making a model more expensive that I currently field and will still want to field regardless of the change will mean I'll have to drop a few models from my lists. I do not want this. Reducing its wounds to 5 and making the Wraithcannon -1D would mean the WK is still good, but is more appropriate to its current cost.

Scatter lasers with Str5 is the BEST option because:
A) it allows the price to stay the same, thus keeping the model count
B) you can still comply with the kit that allows every bike to have one
C) it balances better with the Shuricannon & Star cannon without needing to make changes to those weapons

-

They're not low model count. They are not fragile. Eldar are basically a 3+ armor army with triple the firepower of a marine list. If you want spite fueled rampage, I can think of a lot more to do than increase a broken weapon by 10 pts. Hell, GW hands out far worse nerfs to units that don't need it arbitrarily.

" about three very overpowered units"

Almost everything in the codex is better than what's in my codex. Almost. I'd kill for the units Eldar throw in the trash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Fine with me. Eldar can endure a few nerfs. The scatterlaser is very clearly a 20 pt weapon to me.

My ultimate goal would be to get fewer Eldar models on the table, make existing Eldar models less effective or make existing Eldar models more fragile. Boosting the price on the scatterlaser does one of the first two depending on the choices made by the Eldar player.

And this is where you and I differ. While I agree that the SL in its current iteration is worth 20ppm, I'd rather see it nerfed to Str5 than to have to pay an extra 100+pts per army just to use the same models I have

It's the same with the WK. Sure it is worth 400pts, but I want to use as many models as I can. Making a model more expensive that I currently field and will still want to field regardless of the change will mean I'll have to drop a few models from my lists. I do not want this. Reducing its wounds to 5 and making the Wraithcannon -1D would mean the WK is still good, but is more appropriate to its current cost.

Scatter lasers with Str5 is the BEST option because:
A) it allows the price to stay the same, thus keeping the model count
B) you can still comply with the kit that allows every bike to have one
C) it balances better with the Shuricannon & Star cannon without needing to make changes to those weapons

-

Those work too. I did list off making Eldar models less effective.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Fine with me. Eldar can endure a few nerfs. The scatterlaser is very clearly a 20 pt weapon to me.

My ultimate goal would be to get fewer Eldar models on the table, make existing Eldar models less effective or make existing Eldar models more fragile. Boosting the price on the scatterlaser does one of the first two depending on the choices made by the Eldar player.

And this is the part where to me you're departing from 'reasonable Eldar nerfs' into an uninformed spite-fuelled rampage. You've decided that an army that's already low-model-count and fragile needs to get made more low-model-count and fragile because it has about three very overpowered units, and your mode of execution is going to hit the non-OP units much harder than the OP units.

How many Scatterbikes and Wraithknights can you fit into a 2k list?

I'm genuinely asking here.

"Reducing its wounds to 5 and making the Wraithcannon -1D would mean the WK is still good, but is more appropriate to its current cost. "

We'd have to make the sword/shield a very expensive upgrade as well. GMC status is a pain in the ass in general. I'm not sure W5 -1 to wraith cannon is only 295 pts.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Also nerfs a lot of other units that don't need nerfing,"

I agree with your assessment other than this. The units in question don't have to take the scatterlaser.

And I'd even argue that other than War Walkers, most of them don't particularly want to. Vypers, Wave Serpents and Wraithlords are probably better off with Shuriken Cannons, Falcons probably want Starcannons or Brightlances.

War Walkers wouldn't be hurt excessively by a cost boost on Scatterlasers, I think, because they'd have all the other choices. Am I wrong on that assessment?

I'm going to try and turn this logic back around a bit. If AP and Rending are irrelevant, the shuriken cannon is a massive downgrade on the scatter laser, since the only other differences are one fewer shot and 12" less range. Why would you ever want a shuriken cannon under that premise?

My reasoning is as follows, I cannot speak for Martel here. On a Wave Serpent, I nearly always want to be within 24" anyway, since I'm trying to deliver a payload of infantry, most of whom have short-range guns. The one that doesn't, Dark Reapers, I would seldom take a transport for in any event. Therefore, I'll take the TL shuriken cannon because I already have a hull-mounted one (does anyone really leave the catapult on anything other than a Fire Prism?), and I'd rather have 6 shots with Bladestorm than have 7 shots, 4 of which don't have Bladestorm in most cases. The extra range doesn't matter much because I'm driving that Wave Serpent up your nose anyway. Much the same applies for Vypers, unless I'm trying to sit back and plink, and they're not a very efficient way to do that. If I am, I'd rather use a missile launcher, starcannon or brightlance, because that's the thing that they can do, and Windriders cannot. If I'm sitting back and peashooting with scatterlasers, Windriders are a better platform because they have a save without paying 15 points or Jinking, they're cheaper and they can JSJ. (Granted, AV10 flat-out laughs at a few things that T4 is plenty vulnerable to, but in my meta, most shooting is S4+ anyway.)

As for Wraithlords, the only reason I'm bothering to take them is as counter-assault screening, really, since they're moderately frightening in close combat (4 attacks at S9 AP2 at I4 does worry some things). Accordingly, I'm gonna be close, and probably fighting infantry or MCs rather than vehicles. Versus MEQ - a likely target - the shuricannons outdamage the scatterlasers. Versus T6/3+, the difference is even larger. Give either target set a 2+ save, and it grows even more. (As I've observed in the past, one for one, scatterlasers are only better against vehicles or in cases where the 36" range matters. Admittedly, that last one is a lot of cases - I daresay most of them except Serpents and Wraithlords.)

War Walkers are the other place where I'd take scatterlasers. They can JSJ, after a fashion (Battle Focus), they can Outflank to get annoying rear-armor shots or to get behind Aegis lines, and with two scatterlasers each, that's a lot of fire. I'd be OK with scatterlasers getting a price hike on them - it'd just give me a reason to prefer starcannons, which, frankly, I want a reason to like.

ETA: However, given all that, I'd still stand by dropping scatterlasers to S5, simply because they're way too damn good on Windriders and they outcompete most other choices on Guardian weapon platforms and War Walkers. Making them S5 helps the internal balance problem.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 Kanluwen wrote:
How many Scatterbikes and Wraithknights can you fit into a 2k list?

I'm genuinely asking here.

Unbound or bound?
1 Wraithknight (stock) is equal to approximately 3.5 units of 3x Scatbikes. If you maintain a relatively even ratio of Windrider units to Wraithknights, in Unbound, you will end up with 5 (barebone Warithknights), and 19 Scatbikes (divided up as you see fit).
If you go bound, you would have to run a Craftworld Warhost in order to maximize the number of wraithknights you can bring. in this case, since you also must purchase a Farseer Skyrunner, Warlock Skyrunner and Vyper, and you are limited to only three units of Windriders, the same 5 Wraithknights would net you only 13 Scatbikes (divided up amongst 3 units). If you drop 1 Wraithknight, you can add an additional 9 Scatbikes to spread amongst the three units.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How many Scatterbikes and Wraithknights can you fit into a 2k list?

I'm genuinely asking here.

Unbound or bound?
1 Wraithknight (stock) is equal to approximately 3.5 units of 3x Scatbikes. If you maintain a relatively even ratio of Windrider units to Wraithknights, in Unbound, you will end up with 5 (barebone Warithknights), and 19 Scatbikes (divided up as you see fit).
If you go bound, you would have to run a Craftworld Warhost in order to maximize the number of wraithknights you can bring. in this case, since you also must purchase a Farseer Skyrunner, Warlock Skyrunner and Vyper, and you are limited to only three units of Windriders, the same 5 Wraithknights would net you only 13 Scatbikes (divided up amongst 3 units). If you drop 1 Wraithknight, you can add an additional 9 Scatbikes to spread amongst the three units.

Excellent.

So, let's just think about that. 5 Wraithknights and 13 Scatterbikes with a Vyper(tax), Warlock, and Farseer.

That's going to be absurd for any army to deal with, whether you swing it one way or the other(dropping WKs for Scatterbikes or Scatterbikes for WKs).

Martel732 wrote:
They're not low model count. They are not fragile. Eldar are basically a 3+ armor army with triple the firepower of a marine list. If you want spite fueled rampage, I can think of a lot more to do than increase a broken weapon by 10 pts. Hell, GW hands out far worse nerfs to units that don't need it arbitrarily.

" about three very overpowered units"

Almost everything in the codex is better than what's in my codex. Almost. I'd kill for the units Eldar throw in the trash.

And I'd kill for the mass quantities of T4/3+ infantry, Drop Pods, Rhinos, Assault Vehicles, and customizable-loadout units you're insisting on throwing in the trash. The Eldar Codex is better at the things it's good at than the Blood Angels. The Blood Angels are better at the things they're good at than the Eldar. Woo.

Find me a melee unit in the Eldar Codex (besides the Wraithknight) that doesn't have to s*** itself and scarper the instant a Terminator squad appears. Go ahead. I'll wait.

T4/3+ is now fragile in 7th ed. In part because of mass S6. Even DC have trivial defenses by 7th ed standards.

Drop pods are highly overrated ESPECIALLY for BA. Non-skyhammer pods are a crap shoot at best, imo.

Rhino is a wash with the Wave Serpent. One is more capable, the other is much cheaper.

BA assault vehicles are god awful. LR is in contention for worst unit in the game due to cost. Stormraven requires a land pad or to be put in reserves. Which sucks. DFTS makes Stormraven super gakky.

"Customizable". As in "pay for overcosted equipment so you can give up more points when you die to a scatterlaser"

Eldar melee units don't have to worry about terminators because they will die in the Eldar shooting phase. Unless you are Demons are SW, melee combat is for loser codices.

Martel732 wrote:
T4/3+ is now fragile in 7th ed. In part because of mass S6. Even DC have trivial defenses by 7th ed standards.

Drop pods are highly overrated ESPECIALLY for BA. Non-skyhammer pods are a crap shoot at best, imo.

Rhino is a wash with the Wave Serpent. One is more capable, the other is much cheaper.

BA assault vehicles are god awful. LR is in contention for worst unit in the game due to cost. Stormraven requires a land pad or to be put in reserves. Which sucks. DFTS makes Stormraven super gakky.

"Customizable". As in "pay for overcosted equipment so you can give up more points when you die to a scatterlaser"

The double standards here are really getting on my nerves. T4/3+ is fragile when it's a Tactical Marine but durable when it's a Jetbike. The Drop Pod, hands down the best Dedicated Transport in this or any other Codex, which enables things non-Marine armies can't hope to replicate, is somehow 'overrated'.

Eldar melee units don't have to worry about terminators because they will die in the Eldar shooting phase. Unless you are Demons are SW, melee combat is for loser codices.

...Okay. Eldar melee units don't have to worry about melee because they can shoot melee units to death. But you don't want them to be able to shoot melee units to death. You'd rather we reverted to 5e and got to sit back watching out guns plink harmlessly off the incoming wave of power armour before getting violently disassembled with a chainsword? Is this a Traditio-esque "Eldar players must f*** off and die, and have their Codex burned" hate-fuelled rant, or do you have any interest in actually fixing anything?

". T4/3+ is fragile when it's a Tactical Marine but durable when it's a Jetbike"

36" range increases durability a LOT. Don't believe me? Look at how many weapons can engage 3+ at that range efficiently.

Drop pod is NOT the best dedicated transport. It's good for alpha strike. Except BA and DA don't have units that can really exploit that. Without skyhammer, drop pods are a total crap shoot.

" But you don't want them to be able to shoot melee units to death"

I want them to pay for it. Quit being dramatic.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
T4/3+ is now fragile in 7th ed. In part because of mass S6. Even DC have trivial defenses by 7th ed standards.

Drop pods are highly overrated ESPECIALLY for BA. Non-skyhammer pods are a crap shoot at best, imo.

Rhino is a wash with the Wave Serpent. One is more capable, the other is much cheaper.

BA assault vehicles are god awful. LR is in contention for worst unit in the game due to cost. Stormraven requires a land pad or to be put in reserves. Which sucks. DFTS makes Stormraven super gakky.

"Customizable". As in "pay for overcosted equipment so you can give up more points when you die to a scatterlaser"

The double standards here are really getting on my nerves. T4/3+ is fragile when it's a Tactical Marine but durable when it's a Jetbike.

When you can get a 2+ or 3+ Cover Save when Jinking(mitigated by a weapon with Ignores Cover) versus a 3+ armor save(Mitigated by AP3), there is a difference.
It's an even bigger difference when you can have either/or.

The Drop Pod, hands down the best Dedicated Transport in this or any other Codex, which enables things non-Marine armies can't hope to replicate, is somehow 'overrated'.

You tried to talk about melee.
Drop Pods, while a pretty good Dedicated Transport, are not Assault Vehicles.

A melee centric army in Drop Pods is going to drop in and unless they have a special rule allowing it, be unable to Assault.

Eldar melee units don't have to worry about terminators because they will die in the Eldar shooting phase. Unless you are Demons are SW, melee combat is for loser codices.

...Okay. Eldar melee units don't have to worry about melee because they can shoot melee units to death. But you don't want them to be able to shoot melee units to death. You'd rather we reverted to 5e and got to sit back watching out guns plink harmlessly off the incoming wave of power armour before getting violently disassembled with a chainsword? Is this a Traditio-esque "Eldar players must f*** off and die, and have their Codex burned" hate-fuelled rant, or do you have any interest in actually fixing anything?

You do understand the reason he specifically noted Daemons and Space Wolves, right?

Those are, at the moment, two of the three books which have melee units that can prevent Overwatch.
The third book is Eldar with Howling Banshees.

SW just don't give a gak about overwatch unless it's D-scythes.

Martel732 wrote:
". T4/3+ is fragile when it's a Tactical Marine but durable when it's a Jetbike"

36" range increases durability a LOT. Don't believe me? Look at how many weapons can engage 3+ at that range efficiently.

Does that make Devastators (48" range) more durable than Jetbikes?

Drop pod is NOT the best dedicated transport. It's good for alpha strike. Except BA and DA don't have units that can really exploit that. Without skyhammer, drop pods are a total crap shoot.

Most Dedicated Transports are mediocre tanks. Or increase the durability of the unit slightly. The Drop Pod is a force-multiplier that makes anything put in it vastly, vastly better. You want to bitch about your range? Your assault units' difficulty making it to melee? You've got a f***ing 35pt unit that erases all of those difficulties and it's overrated?

" But you don't want them to be able to shoot melee units to death"

I want them to pay for it. Quit being dramatic.

You want units that weren't a problem to get a pummeling with the nerfbat as collateral damage when you ham-fistedly take an ineffectual swat at the actual problem unit, out of some half-witted assumption that a gun must be costed in a vacuum.

You know what would happen if the only change you made to the current Eldar Codex was to add 10pts anywhere it said 'scatter laser'?

People would stop putting Scatter Lasers on vehicles. And Scatterbikes would still be a problem unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Drop Pod, hands down the best Dedicated Transport in this or any other Codex, which enables things non-Marine armies can't hope to replicate, is somehow 'overrated'.

You tried to talk about melee.
Drop Pods, while a pretty good Dedicated Transport, are not Assault Vehicles.

A melee centric army in Drop Pods is going to drop in and unless they have a special rule allowing it, be unable to Assault.

Step back for a moment.

The problem with melee units is that they have to take some incoming shooting before getting to melee, so they have to weather fire before they can engage.

You can get around this by spending 200+pts on an assault transport, to take fire for your unit and hopefully get into melee without getting shot.

Now explain to me why getting to ensure your melee unit is going to be in position on turn one to charge on turn two, with no risk of failure, ensuring you only have to weather one turn of fire, for 35pts, is a downgrade on a Howling Banshee unit spending 120pts+ on a Wave Serpent that may get blown up or immobilized on the way in, and who still have to sit and weather an enemy Shooting phase before they get to charge, Overwatch or not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
T4/3+ is now fragile in 7th ed. In part because of mass S6. Even DC have trivial defenses by 7th ed standards.

Drop pods are highly overrated ESPECIALLY for BA. Non-skyhammer pods are a crap shoot at best, imo.

Rhino is a wash with the Wave Serpent. One is more capable, the other is much cheaper.

BA assault vehicles are god awful. LR is in contention for worst unit in the game due to cost. Stormraven requires a land pad or to be put in reserves. Which sucks. DFTS makes Stormraven super gakky.

"Customizable". As in "pay for overcosted equipment so you can give up more points when you die to a scatterlaser"

The double standards here are really getting on my nerves. T4/3+ is fragile when it's a Tactical Marine but durable when it's a Jetbike.

When you can get a 2+ or 3+ Cover Save when Jinking(mitigated by a weapon with Ignores Cover) versus a 3+ armor save(Mitigated by AP3), there is a difference.
It's an even bigger difference when you can have either/or.

As opposed to sitting a Devastator squad in a Fortified ruin for a 3+ cover save that doesn't require them to snapfire?