Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 auticus wrote:
Yes - GW does not employ tournament players that take min/max lists for their reports. Their reports have never had min/max lists, which is something also complained about since the beginning of the internet on AOL chat rooms in the 90s when discussing white dwarf reports and how "unrealistic they are".

You must've missed last month's WD then...

Looks to me like a game between two tournament players who are in their employment in their AoS batrep. I also distinctly remember an IW vs SW, one frm 5th ed. WHFB with some WE IIRC and a WHFB Beastmen v DoW (where there was a huge discussion about maths and angles after a particularly janky move from the Beastmen player) ones from back in the day.

BloodGrin wrote:The Thousand Sons player , honestly due to the format it was hard to tell for sure but they were not using their psychic phase as strongly as they should be.
Even the commentators were talking about it.
I get the whole wanting to cast blessings for the +1 invul, but so much more should have been happening, especially with the dice on the table and Magnus.

Well the main issue being he either could go for the +1 invul or go for the horrors. In reality he left it too late to cast the horrors.

Don Savik wrote:Its kind of pathetic how pessimistic people can be. I watched the stream, and I can guarantee you it wasn't a rigged corporate charade to sell the most OP units. It was 2 guys just having a regular game, one of which was new to tzeentch, as guess what, every single person playing wrath of magnus stuff is. They even did the math when Magnus died, failing everything he did was a 2% chance of ever happening, and now people in this thread are whining about how OP hellfrost is all of a sudden.

The very concept of games workshop setting up a casual game on twitch for fun is just too much for people apparently.

Can't we just have fun anymore, guys?

Having spoken to Jay before hand, he was pretty confident that it's pretty much impossible to kill Magnus but he was convinced that he'd roll something on the warp table (not a chaos player myself) that would result in him having to replace his model with a lord of change (or some gak like that). Turns out he didn't even have to be worried about that!

Now to all those conspiracy theorists out there. Jay is just a bog standard staff member from the warhammer world shop (it's filmed in the main hall) who was chosen because A) He's an extremely experienced player and B) Because he has a normal tzeentch Demon army. A lot of work went into that battle reports lists and tactics, he simply miscalled it turn one. Like all of us have never done that before? The mission was done to simply showcase the new models, mission and rules, the result was not fixed in the slightest.

Avadar wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Avadar wrote:
The Thousand Sons Player made some questionable decisions (like not summoning Pink Horrors in a game whose objective is to have a psyker survive til the end, and is using the Tzeentch Warpstorm table, or not using enought mind bullets), and had some not so good roles (causing Magnus to deepstrike twice during the game, and the one role of 6 that would cause Magnus to fail the Strength Test from Helfrost).

It was not a surprise the game ended the way it did.

They cannot play their own game. This explains a lot.

To be fair, I'm not sure the players were GW employees. In fact the commentators (who were GW employees) were on point saying that not summoning more daemons was a bad move; and were wondering why not much was happening in the Psychic phase. They even stopped the game for a moment to ask what happened in the Psychic Phase. The rest was just bad rolling, which can happen to all of us.

In all honesty I think that's more of an issue with the programme format. Trying to have a pro league gaming format with commentators separated by the board doesn't really work. It was more of an issue of loads of dice being rolled (bad dice at that) during the Psychic phase and due to their (albeit small) distance from the board, they had no idea what was going on and then didn't respond and inform viewers when you can hear a fairly inaudible response when asked.

The players however were indeed GW employee's.

morgoth wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Yes - GW does not employ tournament players that take min/max lists for their reports. Their reports have never had min/max lists, which is something also complained about since the beginning of the internet on AOL chat rooms in the 90s when discussing white dwarf reports and how "unrealistic they are".

Not just theirs... I've rarely seen anything on youtube which looked like top tournament players with top lists - I know there are some but it's really a minority.

I've noticed that as well. I know that when I posted video reports of our campaign games, we'd get a lot of nasty troll comments about how the lists were awful and not tournament standard and horribad.

In all fairness the thousand sons list looked like a collection of available models rather than a real list.

I'm not worried about helfrost weapons, Magnus can always run off the board in his shooting phase if you're really scared.

Also opponents are less likely to complain about his usage if they've seen this humiliating defeat.

Most of the people in this thread aren't great at the game either. Took most of the first page to even establish what Helfrost does.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Most of the people in this thread aren't great at the game either. Took most of the first page to even establish what Helfrost does.

My lack of a firm grasp on the rules is offset by my terrible generalship, but thank you for the compliment and positive thinking that I am simply "not great". : D

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Most of the people in this thread aren't great at the game either. Took most of the first page to even establish what Helfrost does.

That just means some people aren't familiar with SW army. I for one have only played them once.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Most of the people in this thread aren't great at the game either. Took most of the first page to even establish what Helfrost does.

That just means some people aren't familiar with SW army. I for one have only played them once.

Plus I don't think it's wrong that we hold the people writing the rules to a higher standard than ourselves, is it?

 Pouncey wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Was this one of their playtesting games though?

I assumed it was.

Why else were they livestreaming this game?

How exactly are they play testing for rules that are already printed and due for release soon?

GW has never been in touch with what their rules are capable of (or incapable) in the hands of a hardcore competitive player. They have always been content with what looks cool over any ideas about list building or a units power. They also have never been hardcore enough to even know all of their own rules. Although that is incredibly hard with their rate. Of recycling the rules, even for those paid to write them.

 Pouncey wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...do we have a more insightful look into how the GW design team thinks?

Every WD batrep ever. I vaguely remember one from 6 or 7 years ago where one of the main devs at the time (possibly Matt Ward) charged five TH/SS Terminators at a massive horde of Genestealers. The batrep text was all like, "the Emperor's Finest shall not be intimidated by these aliens!", then they charged. The inevitable occured, with all five Terminators were smushed at I6, and the batrep is all like, "the aliens vanquished all the mighty Terminators! How unexpected!"

It was at that point I realised GW don't play their games.

The precise moment I stopped caring about WD batreps was when there was a reference to a "practice game" that went completely the other way in the Island of Blood intro.

At that point I stopped giving a damn, since I concluded the following:

1-Batreps are intended to showcase the new army to drive sales.

Totally and 100% disagree. Anyone remember when new nids came out? They lost that fight horribly and that was their opening batrep. The author himself played the nids and they were absolutely crushed.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Most of the people in this thread aren't great at the game either. Took most of the first page to even establish what Helfrost does.

You could be excellent at this game and never have opened Codex: Wolf Wolves ... it's not like there's a single competitive list that uses Helfrost weapons - or codex wolf wolves.

For me as a really inexperienced player who's only into this for the setting and the awesome stories, it sounds a bit as if most of you really are angry because it was a game for fun and that they didn't play as some hardcore nerd at a tournament would.
and i really don't understand why you guys are always returning to that helfrost cannon. even though most of you state "it's not the cannon, we're displeased with the GW staff" many of you are complaining about that one hit kill a lot. you know, the rules of that weapon work for every enemy, not just for magus, right? xD

People complain about the hellfrost rule because no army should have ways of ignoring all your models rules, including eternal warrior, and removing them especially if that rule is on common weaponary within the army.

 mrhappyface wrote:
People complain about the hellfrost rule because no army should have ways of ignoring all your models rules, including eternal warrior, and removing them especially if that rule is on common weaponary within the army.

Honestly this is the first complaint I've ever seen outside calling Helfrost bad.

 Pouncey wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Most of the people in this thread aren't great at the game either. Took most of the first page to even establish what Helfrost does.

That just means some people aren't familiar with SW army. I for one have only played them once.

Plus I don't think it's wrong that we hold the people writing the rules to a higher standard than ourselves, is it?

Do you intend to keep spamming this thread with nonsense? ...clearly, the "people writing the rules" were not the folks controlling those armies. To what "high standard" do you hold yourself? Clearly most of the knee-jerk, spiteful venom spewed in this thread is based on misinformation, lack of knowledge of the rules, and a sick grudge against a toy company that makes no sense.

This is dakka so should I know better than to get involved but c'mon seriously!

I feel like if this game had gone in favor of TSons, you'd have people complaining about how strong Magnus is.

Don't worry, in typical GW fashion they'll just ignore the results of the game since they weren't what they wanted, and write the lore as if the 1K Sons had won. Just like they did with the last Black Crusade

 Cyprien wrote:
For me as a really inexperienced player who's only into this for the setting and the awesome stories, it sounds a bit as if most of you really are angry because it was a game for fun and that they didn't play as some hardcore nerd at a tournament would.
and i really don't understand why you guys are always returning to that helfrost cannon. even though most of you state "it's not the cannon, we're displeased with the GW staff" many of you are complaining about that one hit kill a lot. you know, the rules of that weapon work for every enemy, not just for magus, right? xD

My complaint is not that they don't play like hardcore gamers ( I'd really appreciate a bit more respect on both sides of this) it's that they don't even seem to recognize the concept of competitive gaming to the extent that they write such horribly flawed rules. Those rules are what perpetuates the divide between the casual and the competitive. If they wrote a balanced rules set with options that were equally appealing it wouldn't devolve into "take all of these I can and leave that obvious trash out" types of builds. If all the fluffy options were as powerful as the other options then we wouldn't have the paper rock scissors situation we have now. When people are coming up with lists that break the game a week after a codex drops it's clear that play testers don't try and test the system, they just play to have fun. Which ironically makes it no fun for a lot of their customers.

 nintura wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...do we have a more insightful look into how the GW design team thinks?

Every WD batrep ever. I vaguely remember one from 6 or 7 years ago where one of the main devs at the time (possibly Matt Ward) charged five TH/SS Terminators at a massive horde of Genestealers. The batrep text was all like, "the Emperor's Finest shall not be intimidated by these aliens!", then they charged. The inevitable occured, with all five Terminators were smushed at I6, and the batrep is all like, "the aliens vanquished all the mighty Terminators! How unexpected!"

It was at that point I realised GW don't play their games.

The precise moment I stopped caring about WD batreps was when there was a reference to a "practice game" that went completely the other way in the Island of Blood intro.

At that point I stopped giving a damn, since I concluded the following:

1-Batreps are intended to showcase the new army to drive sales.

Totally and 100% disagree. Anyone remember when new nids came out? They lost that fight horribly and that was their opening batrep. The author himself played the nids and they were absolutely crushed.

They've had a few games like this actually, it just seems like they do whatever they think looks cool for a batrep.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:


My complaint is not that they don't play like hardcore gamers ( I'd really appreciate a bit more respect on both sides of this) it's that they don't even seem to recognize the concept of competitive gaming to the extent that they write such horribly flawed rules. Those rules are what perpetuates the divide between the casual and the competitive. If they wrote a balanced rules set with options that were equally appealing it wouldn't devolve into "take all of these I can and leave that obvious trash out" types of builds. If all the fluffy options were as powerful as the other options then we wouldn't have the paper rock scissors situation we have now. When people are coming up with lists that break the game a week after a codex drops it's clear that play testers don't try and test the system, they just play to have fun. Which ironically makes it no fun for a lot of their customers.

Plus catering to competitive play is just good business sense. It doesn't take a rocket appliance to understand that good competitive rule sets translate into a balanced and fair game that make casual play more enjoyable as well. I'm a casual player and frankly I'd rather have a game built around balance of gameplay over writing in cheese because it just "feels fluffy".

 metallifan wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:


My complaint is not that they don't play like hardcore gamers ( I'd really appreciate a bit more respect on both sides of this) it's that they don't even seem to recognize the concept of competitive gaming to the extent that they write such horribly flawed rules. Those rules are what perpetuates the divide between the casual and the competitive. If they wrote a balanced rules set with options that were equally appealing it wouldn't devolve into "take all of these I can and leave that obvious trash out" types of builds. If all the fluffy options were as powerful as the other options then we wouldn't have the paper rock scissors situation we have now. When people are coming up with lists that break the game a week after a codex drops it's clear that play testers don't try and test the system, they just play to have fun. Which ironically makes it no fun for a lot of their customers.

Plus catering to competitive play is just good business sense. It doesn't take a rocket appliance to understand that good competitive rule sets translate into a balanced and fair game that make casual play more enjoyable as well. I'm a casual player and frankly I'd rather have a game built around balance of gameplay over writing in cheese because it just "feels fluffy".

People kept saying that about Warmahordes but all I remember is turn one death's from a balanced and fair competitive gameset.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Can someone explain how Magnus was 1 shot with 7 wounds?

No, they can't.

After some research, it looks like the Helfrost Destructor is a STR8 AP1 weapon with some special rules that can result in a 1-shot if a strength test is failed.

It would be nice if someone could walk me through this combat... I'm very unclear on what happened.

Not sure about the rest, but all Helfrost weapons have a rule where if you suffer a wound, you have to pass a Strength test or be removed from play. Hence why Magnus not being a GMC is fething stupid.

It's also a blast weapon that cant target flying creatures...which magnus would absolutely be flying vs a list that had helfrost weapons. lol.

GW FAQed that skyfire blasts can hit flyers

Flyers, yes, but i'm not sure about FMC.

mmh scratch that:

Q: Do Blast weapons hit Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creatures?
A: No.
Q: Can a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or Zooming
Flyer be targeted by a Blast or Template weapon with the Skyfire
special rule?
A: No.
Q: Can Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures be hit by nova
and beam powers?
A: Yes for nova powers, no for beam powers.

So anyone who play competitively at all knows that there are TONS of rule screw ups during a match. It's part of the game.

It's really not a big of deal as everyone in this thread is making it out to be.....

What's really annoying is when an outsider sits there and gives rules corrections and drive-by advice to one player or another. (That includes TOs, judges, and internet rage monsters.)

Chill out everyone.

CrownAxe wrote:[GW FAQed that skyfire blasts can hit flyers

I thought that was the First Draft FAQ. In the final FAQ it was changed back again. Or so I thought I read. So many changes not sure what is what anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pouncey wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I'll bet they'd have an easier time remembering the rules correctly if the BRB wasn't 200 pages long and written poorly.

I don't have any problem remembering those rules

Maybe it's just me then. But I do have a problem with remembering specific phrasing.

If browsing YMDC has taught me anything. it probably isn't just you

Oh.

So then your personal lack of issue with remembering the rules isn't really a reason not to cut down on the length of the game's rules and write them better, is it?

Do you perhaps have an eidetic memory?

Can someone please explain this? Wasn't Crown Axe agreeing with Pouncey on his last post saying it wasn't just Pouncey with remembering rules but yet Pouncey turns it around on him/her and then goes on to out him/her out with asking if they had exceptional memory?

How am I reading this wrong?

The salt about frost weapons is real.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The salt about frost weapons is real.

ANY item/weapon that removes an entire model from the game deserves salt.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


People kept saying that about Warmahordes but all I remember is turn one death's from a balanced and fair competitive gameset.

So? This is no the fault of the rules. With respect; that's the fault of the player. Yes, WMH has a very high learning curve and you have to be aware of threat ranges of things etc. (which is less of problem now with premeasuring). But to blame your caster getting assassinated on turn 1 because of the rules of the game is patently false. You can block charge lanes, LOS, have things with counter charge. All these things and more can prevent such a thing from occurring.

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The salt about frost weapons is real.

ANY item/weapon that removes an entire model from the game deserves salt.

The amount of space wolf units that can take Hellfrost is minimal, I can name like 4, one of which being unique. Also, it is so situational that in any of my games it has never even made a different.

If Long Fangs could take it, I would understand the salt, I would also buy some long fangs, but I would get where you're coming from.

There are so many other things to be angry about in that game, a stupid dice roll is near the bottom of the list.

Ruin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


People kept saying that about Warmahordes but all I remember is turn one death's from a balanced and fair competitive gameset.

So? This is no the fault of the rules. With respect; that's the fault of the player. Yes, WMH has a very high learning curve and you have to be aware of threat ranges of things etc. (which is less of problem now with premeasuring). But to blame your caster getting assassinated on turn 1 because of the rules of the game is patently false. You can block charge lanes, LOS, have things with counter charge. All these things and more can prevent such a thing from occurring.

40K has "a very high learning curve", and the codex is BRAND new... but completely irrational overreactions are only ok when it's negative about GW apparently.

Pffff... 40ks learning curve can't even be expressed as a curve. Is there such a thing as a learning ray?