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I just want to make it clear this is not a thread for bashing on peoples legions. I make this thread in the vain and unlikely hope that GW will see it and understand what they need to change about these 3 chapters to stop people feeling such hatred for them. If I'm honest, I dislike Space Wolves. Mostly because I've never particularly got on with boisterous people who boast about a lot of nothing. Also because they have some units that are just incredibly op e.g TWC and Wulfven. But the main reason I dislike them, is because they're so easy to mock. The furry jokes just roll of the tongue without even trying. In my opinion, if GW wants this chapter to have the respect it deserves then it seriously needs to limit it's use of the word "wolf" in their codex.

There are two problems with Space Wolves. 1. Games Workshop let someone without a brain write them so Space Wolves have way too much wolf and general bad writing.
2. People misphrase (or outright lie) about how their lore happens. The misinformation spreads and then you have loads of people talking about how bad some lore is when it's not even close to the actual lore.

For me, in order of dislike it goes 1. Space Wolves. 2. Grey Knights. 3. Ultramarines.

Space Wolves: I loathe the Rune Priest and Wulfen Hypocrisy, and as TS's are my 2nd favourite Chaos Legion I dislike them even further (I have both Horus Heresy books about Prospero). The fact that they can tell the inquisition to go feth themselves while the DA and their successors have to hide their secrets doesn't help matters. Funnily enough, the furry bits don't actually bug me that much.

Grey Knights: Draigo annoys me with his ability to wonder around Chaos' home base murdering people. Imagine if Shadowsun lived in the Imperial Place killing custodes at whim for an example. However, I've seen some good/grimdark expplanations for this. I also dislike the dreadknight. However, Bruva Alfabrusa and ITEHATSD (I think that's the acronym), have made me much more pleasent toward them.

Ultramairnes: I dislike some of the egregious fluff and their prodigious number of special characters. I don't dislike Guilleman, thanks to Abnett and Know no Fear. There are enough examples of modifying the codex, as well as bluntly ignoring bits, that it doesn't bug me. Of these 3 they are by far the one I am most ok with.

Just have the Space Wolves not have so many titles with "wolf" in their name. That'd be enough to stop half the jokes or so.

Ultramarines require a subtle shift away from aggrandizement and more focus on being the most successful and prolific Space Marine chapter. They can still be everyone's spiritual liege, but why oh WHY did Matt Ward have to put it like that??

And Grey Knights, well...

#1 We have Draigo, just as Abbadon is a herald of Chaos so too is Draigo a herald of ridiculousness. The only way to fix him is with retcons, and they can either be subtle (additions to change his story to something a little less silly) or just erasing the character completely, which I'd like, but for reasons I'll go into in #2 I don't think it's a good idea overall. The Grey Knights is such a huge and spread out chapter that it really makes more sense for it to be led by 11 grand masters or however many there are instead of 1 Supreme Ultimate Super Great Grand Master. But for reasons I'll describe in #2, it's best to just alter his story so that it's not quite so ridiculous. In fact, I actually think it'd be less ridiculous if it took itself less seriously. It's like a "so bad it's good" movie---It's funny because it's not trying to be. Lighten it up just enough to deflate that and I think the problem will go away. My suggestion is make it so that all Draigo knows how to do anymore is fight daemons, and that all that time in the warp has, although not corrupted him, still messed with his mind. (Make Draigo crazy)

#2 We have the Dreadknight. Another thing the Grey Knights could've done without, but Games Workshop was just giving every army a walker/monster when their update came (and they still do, although they're not married to it anymore like they were) but getting back on point, the Dreadknight went from something everyone was excited over to something that only people who don't really care about what the units/miniatures look like use. So at this point they can but actually really can't retcon the dreadknight because that'd be viewed as a huge violation of customer faith. They were willing to take that bullet with Age of Sigmar, but I think they've made it clear that it was done as a last ditch effort to save the game. (Not bashing it or anything, I think it's worked). My point being that they will not and should not do that with the dreadknight so the only option left to fix it is with a redesign. The Dreadknight page on 1d4Chan has a conversion that looks like it'd make a sensible redesign--it's essentially a mech that looks like a Grey Knight.

And lastly, we have that story... The one with the Sisters of Battle. I don't know of that codex still has that story, but if it does then it shouldn't. The whole point of the Grey Knights is that they're so empowered with holy might that they can avoid taking those kinds of measures and still win. I know they (Matt) was going for Grim Darkness™ but ended up with Grim Derpness instead. Draigo can just walk through the realm of chaos like a playground, meanwhile we have these Grey Knights resorting to malefic daemonology to win. Written by the same hand in the same book.

So repairing the damage Matt Ward left behind aside, what we have are some simple name changes and one redesigned miniature.

Space Wolves and Ultramarines have a certain 'HEROIC SPIRIT' anti-intellectualist designated-protagonist blandness about them. They end up with a whitebread boringness on a level seldom seen outside grizzled Hollywood action heroes and fanfiction self-inserts with the added insult that we're supposed to believe they're the paragons of what a Space Marine should be.

Grey Kngihts have all of that with the added "...as far above a Space Marine as a Space Marine is above a human..." special-snowflake Mary Suedom.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Space Wolves and Ultramarines have a certain 'HEROIC SPIRIT' anti-intellectualist designated-protagonist blandness about them. They end up with a whitebread boringness on a level seldom seen outside grizzled Hollywood action heroes and fanfiction self-inserts with the added insult that we're supposed to believe they're the paragons of what a Space Marine should be.

I can see that for the Ultramarines, but the Space Wolves have always seemed a bit like the Chaotic Good "outsiders" to me, rather than the paragons of Lawful Good Manliness that the Smurfs are supposed to represent.

Not that that makes them better. The "edgy good guy" thing is equally obnoxious and silly. Also "wolf" everywhere.

 BBAP wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Space Wolves and Ultramarines have a certain 'HEROIC SPIRIT' anti-intellectualist designated-protagonist blandness about them. They end up with a whitebread boringness on a level seldom seen outside grizzled Hollywood action heroes and fanfiction self-inserts with the added insult that we're supposed to believe they're the paragons of what a Space Marine should be.

I can see that for the Ultramarines, but the Space Wolves have always seemed a bit like the Chaotic Good "outsiders" to me, rather than the paragons of Lawful Good Manliness that the Smurfs are supposed to represent.

Not that that makes them better. The "edgy good guy" thing is equally obnoxious and silly. Also "wolf" everywhere.

I'd actually say the opposite. The Space Wolves have always seemed like your standard heroes, while the Ultramarines, flawless and perfect though they may be, are the ones who I would say put tactical doctrine above heroism. By the way, in my earlier post, I neglected to mention that the Ultramarines, from what I've heard (I don't read up on them, so I could be wrong) have become more portrayed as pragmatists over heroes now, while the Space Wolves are your standard "goes in over his head every time but it always works out" Mary Sue type.

But then again, I don't read much about the Space Wolves, either.

Honestly, people just need to stop being jealous of them.

 Quarterdime wrote:
(I don't read up on them, so I could be wrong)

Not intending to pick directly on Quarterdime, but this phrase right here I feel is where well over half of all hate comes from. People just don't read. Someone did read. Didn't like what they read, and thus poked fun at it with one liners and over exaggerated hyperbol. Yet we all have read what they spout, over and over and over. Mostly because if someone thinks they are clever, they repeat it in every possible relevent post thread they can find. So the less personally informed of us start to take what they say as gospil, after all that is all they have read on the subject, and it does cloud individual thought on the factions.

Mind you this is all has do to with fluff hatred. If you hate a factions model range, for whatever personal reasons, thats cool too, after all everone cant like everything all the time. For example, I don't really mind the fluff behind the DreadKnight, but I think the actual model is just stupidly silly.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
(I don't read up on them, so I could be wrong)

Not intending to pick directly on Quarterdime, but this phrase right here I feel is where well over half of all hate comes from. People just don't read. Someone did read. Didn't like what they read, and thus poked fun at it with one liners and over exaggerated hyperbol. Yet we all have read what they spout, over and over and over. Mostly because if someone thinks they are clever, they repeat it in every possible relevent post thread they can find. So the less personally informed of us start to take what they say as gospil, after all that is all they have read on the subject, and it does cloud individual thought on the factions.

Mind you this is all has do to with fluff hatred. If you hate a factions model range, for whatever personal reasons, thats cool too, after all everone cant like everything all the time. For example, I don't really mind the fluff behind the DreadKnight, but I think the actual model is just stupidly silly.

Right, but generally speaking if people keep going over something like this then it's probably for a reason. And the dreadknight is just like Draigo. With Draigo they had Grand Masters, but 5th Edition gave them the Super Ultra Mega Supreme Grand Master. With the Dreadknight they had Dreadnoughts, but 5th Edition gave them Super Ultra Mega Dreadknight. That's not enough for me to hate it, though. Like I said before, give me a good enough model and I'll buy what you're selling.

Space Wolves are dumb because they went from vikings in space to werewolves in space.

Grey Knights are dumb because they never deserved their own codex and were better as a single 5 man terminator squad available to imperial forces.

Ultramarines are the greatest thing ever. To say otherwise is heresy.

Second two are Matt Ward's fault, but evidently he's not the source of the problem as the goofy wulfen prove.

Just look at this horrifying artwork:

It's funny because Space Wolves and Grey Knights are actually the two most popular chapters if I had to wager a guess.

I don't dislike Ultramarines but people don't like them because they are Mary Sues.

Space Wolves and Grey Knights both suffer from bad writing. The fact that Grey Knights washed themselves in the blood of the Sisters and somehow a standard Grey Knight Captain carved the Grand Master's name onto the heart of a Daemon Primarch is flatly ridiculous.

I don't know of any other mortal space marine that challenged a primarch, let alone a Daemon Primarch. It's just flat-out stupid. That lore in particular is flatly grating to me. Grey Knights could be really neat if not for the 5th edition codex. Why hasn't Matt Ward's stuff been retconned yet?

Space Wolves....ugh. Can't think of a single thing I like about them, how's that. The runes, the goofy howling, the bones, the wulfen, the wolf cavalry, the wolf chariots; god, they are completely revolting. Kill them, they are cancer.

I actually thought the 6th edition Dark Angel codex had clownish writing, but when I heard they ordered the bombardment of Fenris I gained an appreciation for them. When DA become the underdogs in the next hammy claptrap series of Warzone Fenris I'll be cheering for them.

Mudrat wrote:
For me, in order of dislike it goes 1. Space Wolves. 2. Grey Knights. 3. Ultramarines.

Space Wolves: I loathe the Rune Priest and Wulfen Hypocrisy, and as TS's are my 2nd favourite Chaos Legion I dislike them even further (I have both Horus Heresy books about Prospero). The fact that they can tell the inquisition to go feth themselves while the DA and their successors have to hide their secrets doesn't help matters. Funnily enough, the furry bits don't actually bug me that much.

Grey Knights: Draigo annoys me with his ability to wonder around Chaos' home base murdering people. Imagine if Shadowsun lived in the Imperial Place killing custodes at whim for an example. However, I've seen some good/grimdark expplanations for this. I also dislike the dreadknight. However, Bruva Alfabrusa and ITEHATSD (I think that's the acronym), have made me much more pleasent toward them.

Ultramairnes: I dislike some of the egregious fluff and their prodigious number of special characters. I don't dislike Guilleman, thanks to Abnett and Know no Fear. There are enough examples of modifying the codex, as well as bluntly ignoring bits, that it doesn't bug me. Of these 3 they are by far the one I am most ok with.

Makes them more interesting imo, if the Da went clean from the start about the fall they wouldn't probably be as secretive as they are today which is more the fault of their primarch shaping the Da contrary to the Wolfs more accepting of gak happens, which further explains the rivalry between the Darks and Wolfs.

I run Space Wolves, love the Wulfen models, hate the monkey like artwork they recieved. Mine all have similar colours in skin and fur, most people don't make monkey or lion comments like they do to the other players who run them.
Actually I dig all the Wolves' models and fluff, I just hate reading the Codex sometimes, someone got really lazy with naming 'I know, lets call them Wolf-' I'd love to see more Norse mythos and less of the Wolfity Wolf.

Grey Knights...love their models, indifferent to their fluff.

Ultramarines...can't knock vanilla models, I use them to thin down the Wolfity Wolf in my army, Ultramarine fluff is pretty goid in the concepts but it's hard to get behind them as characters.

Ultramarines get a bad rep because they are the Mary Sue chapter of vanilla marines and the Matt Ward gak about "Spiritual Liege" is a giant middle finger to every other chapter/legion in the setting. Doesn't help that their name is Ultra Marines and thus more exceptional and marine like than the other space marines. GW turning them into the poster child of 40k is another middle finger to the franchise which also pisses off the non marine players as their factions get further ignored while space marines (picturing the Ultrasmurfs) get another release because the last 3 weren't enough.

Grey Knights get a lot of flak from 5th edition and more Matt Ward fluff. Dreadknights are an abomination of model design and it doesn't help that they basically do what Dreadnoughts are suppose to do but way better. Probably doesn't help that Grey Knights are space marines designed to wreck some of Chaos's top stuff (their Daemons) so it comes across as being even more OP mary sue gak. Draigo is king mary sue but personally I love the user created meme lore for Draigo being crazy and possibly on warp dust.

Space Wolves probably get most of their flak from the TERRIBLE naming system GW has for them. Wolf Wolf Wolf Wolf Wolf Claw, Fang, Wolf, Wolf, Wolf, Murder, Claw, Fang, Wolf. Storm, Wolf. Personally I like the wolves for their refusal to follow Rowboat's "How to Spess Mahreen like a Smurf" and their general combat style of close combat. Thundercav and Wulfen (Digganobz!) get a lot of gak from bother how over the top they are in their concept and how good they are on the table top. The Santa Sled and the Flying wolf head shipping container are just more

 TedNugent wrote:
The fact that Grey Knights washed themselves in the blood of the Sisters

Is fully reasonable. There is a difference between spiritual corruption and physical corruption resulting in outright mind control. Grey Knights are effectively immune to the former, and very resistant to the latter, but not completely immune. Consider what happened to the Blood Disciples; they were touched by warp-cursed blood that automatically converted whoever came into contact with it to Khorne. Grey Knights (perhaps aside from Purifiers) are not immune to that either. Using SoB as an ingredient in a counter-ritual is not only appropriate, it's also right grimdark!

that and somehow a standard Grey Knight Captain carved the Grand Master's name onto the heart of a Daemon Primarch is flatly ridiculous.

While a bit annoying, the fact that he had Mortarion crippled with the True Name and that Mortarion had up until that point royally kicked their butts makes it reasonable I feel.

I don't at all mind Grey Knights, just as I do not mind the Custodes. They have their own place. The babycarrier model is a disgrace though.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Is fully reasonable. There is a difference between spiritual corruption and physical corruption resulting in outright mind control. Grey Knights are effectively immune to the former, and very resistant to the latter, but not completely immune.

The Bloodtide was capable of exploding people too.

As a BA player I despise the fact that in 5th edition the BA got its own flier that we shared with the Grey Knights. The Ultra Mary Sues were given it later and also given new Rhinos that can trash fliers, as well as a mini flier and Centurions. The BA got none of that. The Space Pups .... Logan Grimnar carries a friggin DEAMON weapon, but hey, that is ok, they are space wolves. There are so many reasons that I am kinda pissy with the Ultra and Wolf marines.

Grey Knights? Nah, I am ok with them.

From what I've come to understand: Ultra marines have become loathed as GW overuses them and codex's in recent years have depicted them as being the best of the best of the best.
I also understand that the Grey knights have become the bane of many players and corresponding fiction [decapitating SOB for headwear] was met with much scorn

 Skymate wrote:
[decapitating SOB for headwear] was met with much scorn

Ooooh when did this happen?

I predict that the answer is never.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
The fact that Grey Knights washed themselves in the blood of the Sisters

Is fully reasonable. There is a difference between spiritual corruption and physical corruption resulting in outright mind control. Grey Knights are effectively immune to the former, and very resistant to the latter, but not completely immune. Consider what happened to the Blood Disciples; they were touched by warp-cursed blood that automatically converted whoever came into contact with it to Khorne. Grey Knights (perhaps aside from Purifiers) are not immune to that either. Using SoB as an ingredient in a counter-ritual is not only appropriate, it's also right grimdark!

How about the Sisters drenching themselves in the blood of Grey Knights.

TedNugent 711354 9083487 wrote:
How about the Sisters drenching themselves in the blood of Grey Knights.

The Grey Knights anointed themselves with blood from the Sisters of Battle was part of a ritual to protect them from the Bloodtide. In 40K blood (especially from those pure of heart) holds special power.

Avoiding hyperbole might help your argument.


Annnnnnnnnnnd I totally misread what you said. Though I'm not sure what the point is.

Have Ultramarines show their flaws. Hell, actually have said flaws have drastic consequences. Ultramarines falling to Chaos or having a succession crisis with Sicarius's glossed-over pride getting the better of him would be a good way to do that.
Space Wolves need to show more Viking influence- as in the actual Viking mentality.
Grey Knights need to have less focus on being inherently "incorruptible" and more on being single-minded opponents of Chaos in all its forms. Less "immune to temptation" and more "We will fight the Great Enemy to the very last, for the sake of all humanity". It cheapens the narrative if they aren't incorruptible because they work for it, but if they just have the "right" attributes.

TedNugent wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
The fact that Grey Knights washed themselves in the blood of the Sisters

Is fully reasonable. There is a difference between spiritual corruption and physical corruption resulting in outright mind control. Grey Knights are effectively immune to the former, and very resistant to the latter, but not completely immune. Consider what happened to the Blood Disciples; they were touched by warp-cursed blood that automatically converted whoever came into contact with it to Khorne. Grey Knights (perhaps aside from Purifiers) are not immune to that either. Using SoB as an ingredient in a counter-ritual is not only appropriate, it's also right grimdark!

How about the Sisters drenching themselves in the blood of Grey Knights.

That wouldn't be as efficient.

Sisters are, despite their own strengths, less of an investment for the Imperium than the Grey Knights. Their armour is inferior, lack psychic capabilities and the specialised and rare tools wielded by the Grey Knights. Not to mention that the scenario called for dedicated daemon hunters. One of the two is based on killing daemons, and it's not the Sisters.

It's nowhere near as bad as a lot of hyperbole says.
The GK didn't do it because the Sisters were corrupt, or for gaks and giggles. They did it because the Bloodtide would have physically harmed them had they gone without protection. It's not hard to imagine the Sisters condoning it too, allowing the heralds of the Emperor, the closest current thing to his actual kin, to use their blood to succeed.

hungryugolino wrote:Have Ultramarines show their flaws. Hell, actually have said flaws have drastic consequences. Ultramarines falling to Chaos or having a succession crisis with Sicarius's glossed-over pride getting the better of him would be a good way to do that.

All good. We do have cases of Ultramarines falling to Chaos (I think), but I think a focus on the Ultramarines realising their reliance on the Codex is not progressive (perhaps after another invasion of Ultramar)) would be good.

Space Wolves need to show more Viking influence- as in the actual Viking mentality.

And less of their uncanny ability to avoid all retribution from governing Imperial forces (looking at the Months of Shame)

Grey Knights need to have less focus on being inherently "incorruptible" and more on being single-minded opponents of Chaos in all its forms. Less "immune to temptation" and more "We will fight the Great Enemy to the very last, for the sake of all humanity". It cheapens the narrative if they aren't incorruptible because they work for it, but if they just have the "right" attributes.

I think being incorruptible is a good thing, but only if it shows how valuable they are, and for each loss, they are losing a very valuable and hard to replace asset. Specialising them to be close to *only* daemonhunters would be a good thing, perhaps replacing their Nemesis weaponry to be incorporeal blades that can only affect daemonic tissue (represented in game as ignoring Invulnerable saves but being AP- ?)

Didn't read the whole thread, however, I just wanted to say the reason I love the Space Wolves is because I've always seen them as outsiders, the brethren who is disliked by majority of the other chapters but is put up with because they are good at what they do.

I do understand why other people dislike them, but that is just a change of taste.

Most people don't like the Ultramarines or Grey Knights because they are complete Mary Sues.

Personally, I don't like the Grey Knights because they aren't fun to play against, and I don't like the Ultramarines because they are boring at this point.

Grey Knights should be more like Deathwatch, actually they should be further gone than Deathwatch.
A lot of people don't like the Deathmasque story but it shows a good number of the Deathwatch being so fanatical in their mission that they don't even consider negotiating, even with semi friendly species like Eldar.

Maybe it's because their mission is properly black and white but compared to the Deathwatch the Grey Knights seem almost reasonable.

You say reasonable I say smart.

pm713 wrote:
You say reasonable I say smart.

Convenient that smart and nice don't have to go hand in hand.
Grey Knights make enemies of every Space Marine they meet, good thing they mind wipe them.

I only hate the space wolves out of those, it's a mix of background stuff with me favouring Tzeentch, their mutations, generally seeming to get away with crap that's seen chapters removed from existence, stupid crap like Egil Iron Wolf, Wolf Lord of the Ironwolves for example, the thunderwolf cavalry, the santa sleigh thing, and the digganobz having tubes to inject axe body spray.

They had an alright and interesting viking feel, but they've degenerated into wolf fetishists.

A large amount of people hate them because *everyone* else does. GK have had a lot of their outstanding fluff already explained people just never looked it for it. Same for Ultramarines, though the Space Wolves... they haven't got lucky in terms of fluff at all.

The big thing that has annoyed me out of them all is the fact draigo and logar had demon weapons reforged for them. Like wtf, why do that.

Also Dakka Wolf Black Templer are canon bros with the Grey Knights, you know that psychic hating chapter.