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 Iron_Captain wrote:

40k is not science fiction, it is science fantasy. A lot of things happen that are not logically explainable.

Not picking on you in particular or anything, but this argument comes up quite often and I fail to see how 40k being science fantasy means that it's any less valid to try and fathom some semblance of reason from things (in the context of the universe), in order to facilitate someone's suspension of disbelief.

All Science Fiction is fantasy.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Don't try to get the Alpha Legion. It is deliberately written to be mysterious.
40k is not science fiction, it is science fantasy. A lot of things happen that are not logically explainable. The Primarchs and their special super powers is one of those things. All Primarchs have their own special trick. That of Alpharius is that he can appear as a normal Marine and that he can let a normal marine assume his appearance and power.

Also, don't read Praetorian of Dorn. It is bad. Really bad.

Also, if you think they are too good and are an author's pet, you have not actually read any of the BL series on them. They lose virtually everything and they are usually mistreated really badly by the author. The only other legion treated this badly are the Iron Warriors.
The real author's pets are the Ultramarines and especially the Imperial Fists.
The Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors have been degraded to being the saturday morning cartoon villains of the series.

I'd say Word Bearers are treated the worst. I mean, they are comically incapable due to fighting the UMs at every step of the way. Iron Warriors seem to do alright, all things considered.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

40k is not science fiction, it is science fantasy. A lot of things happen that are not logically explainable.

Not picking on you in particular or anything, but this argument comes up quite often and I fail to see how 40k being science fantasy means that it's any less valid to try and fathom some semblance of reason from things (in the context of the universe), in order to facilitate someone's suspension of disbelief.

All Science Fiction is fantasy.

True, but not if you are talking literary genres. Science fiction and fantasy are related but different genres.
The difference between both in regards to suspension of disbelief tends to be that works in the sci-fi genre adhere to the laws of physics and science as much as possible and give often elaborate, pseudoscientific explanations to explain the things that deviate from real-world physics. Works in the fantasy genre adhere to physics much less and differences between the real universe and the fictional universe tend to be explained through magic or some other mystical source.
The basic difference is that sci-fi has a grounding in reality and actual science, whereas fantasy has not.
40k solidly fits into the fantasy genre, which should not be surprising given that it originates from a game that was literally called "Warhammer Fantasy Battles".

As to reason in 40k, it depends on what kind of reason you are looking for. If you want logically consistent, well-written and realistic explanations for everything, you have come to the wrong universe. 40k is ruled by the rule of cool and grimdark. Its many different authors make logical consistency impossible, and they usually are pretty bad writers as well. Explanations are usually handwaved using the warp or incomprehensible archaeotech and advanced superscience.
So yeah, if Alpharius can appear as an awe-inspiring tall demigod one moment and an ordinary guy the next, that is just because that is a power he has been given either through the Warp or through the Emperor's advanced science. Same with ordinary Alpha Legionaries taking on their Primarch's power and personality. Either through their geneseed, the Warp, or some arcane tech-ritual. No further explanation is ever likely to be given. If that does not satisfy you, then that is too bad.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Don't try to get the Alpha Legion. It is deliberately written to be mysterious.
40k is not science fiction, it is science fantasy. A lot of things happen that are not logically explainable. The Primarchs and their special super powers is one of those things. All Primarchs have their own special trick. That of Alpharius is that he can appear as a normal Marine and that he can let a normal marine assume his appearance and power.

Also, don't read Praetorian of Dorn. It is bad. Really bad.

Also, if you think they are too good and are an author's pet, you have not actually read any of the BL series on them. They lose virtually everything and they are usually mistreated really badly by the author. The only other legion treated this badly are the Iron Warriors.
The real author's pets are the Ultramarines and especially the Imperial Fists.
The Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors have been degraded to being the saturday morning cartoon villains of the series.

I keep hearing that about the book. How bad are we talking?

A chainsword to the face.

Oh please do be specific!

Who's to say that the huge Primarch is Alpharius? It could be Omegon and Alpharius is actually in Omegon's "place". It's best to think of Alpharius and Omegon as titles switched between the two. And also 14ft tall? Correct me if I'm wrong but the average Marine is 8ft, and the Primarchs, though markedly larger than regular SM would probably not be that tall. I'd say 10 or 11 ft is a more reasonable guess, which is still huge. But who knows what's under "Alpharius's" armour? AFAIK neither Alpharius or Omegon are Psykers so their presence in the warp would not be as large as someone's such as Magnus or Horus (when under the influence of Chaos). Maybe that wasn't the Primarch but it was still Alpharius if that makes sense.

It's the 31st millennium and camo cloaks exist. That could account for some of it. I get your point about it being that every marine is a specialist is unrealistic but IIRC 10000 years later every marine has to be an assault, scout and devastator before he becomes a tactical marine. So not too far off. And being the Imperium in its prime with more technology and easier access to it it is kind of feasible they could do this. And they are a bad conventional army - by marine standards of course. In a straight up fight they would lose to almost any legion but that's not how they fight.

All Marines are irreplaceable unless you're the Ultramarines. I've not read the books you mention but to me it seems to completely break the AL fluff to be involved in a war of attrition. I'm pretty sure most of Istvaan was one knockout blow and a few scattered survivors afterwards but the only HH books on Istvaan I've read are Fulgrim and Vulkan Lives. I'd say that's just poor writing if I understood your point right.

Maybe it's their gene-seed? Maybe they hide mutation better? Who knows.

Who says they're working for the Eldar? I thought that got retconned.

I'm not sure if they retconned this too but I'm pretty sure Horus knew they weren't on his side, and decided to let them get on with it as long as they didn't directly oppose him. He had the most powerful single being in the galaxy to contend with.

Again bad writing.

Well, a lot of solid counter points, but none that have really satisfied me with the whole... author's pet, as the OP put it.

The disparity between primarch and marine, both physical and psychic, the whole "twin primarchs" thing when the fluff makes no uncertainties about there being 20 primarchs, and that the other 2 got their own legions which means neither of them were Alpharius' twin...

...In the end this all just comes back to the same problem that keeps me from reading the Horus Heresy. They're writing the story backwards and when the equation stops adding up they need to bend the rules. You could say that Alpharius had to be smaller, had to have a twin, had to have the psychic gift of anonymity because they wrote themselves into a corner. The more justification Alpharius has for being the author's pet, the more he becomes the author's pet. It's a catch-22.

And by the way, just because the Alpha Legion gets beaten in the end doesn't mean they don't also suffer from the whole author's pet problem, too. I only ever see them get beat once they've decided to engage the enemy directly--as far as the whole "infiltrators extraordinaire" element is concerned, have they EVER botched a job?

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:

Maybe it's their gene-seed? Maybe they hide mutation better? Who knows.

Who says they're working for the Eldar? I thought that got retconned.

I'm not sure if they retconned this too but I'm pretty sure Horus knew they weren't on his side, and decided to let them get on with it as long as they didn't directly oppose him. He had the most powerful single being in the galaxy to contend with.

Again bad writing.

As per Legion, it was stated they had the purest gene-seed, and not until after the Heresy do they begin falling to Chaos. They were working for the Cabal, which included some Eldar, but that's about it.

Horus, as per HH3, didn't trust the Alpha Legion, and even sent Abaddon to cleanse the Sons of Horus' ranks of infiltrators.

I'm not saying the writing's not poor (I'm still confused as to how they engineer their infiltrator's vocal chords to sound like who they're replacing), but some of what you're wondering about has been addressed.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Who's to say that the huge Primarch is Alpharius? It could be Omegon and Alpharius is actually in Omegon's "place". It's best to think of Alpharius and Omegon as titles switched between the two. And also 14ft tall? Correct me if I'm wrong but the average Marine is 8ft, and the Primarchs, though markedly larger than regular SM would probably not be that tall. I'd say 10 or 11 ft is a more reasonable guess, which is still huge. But who knows what's under "Alpharius's" armour? AFAIK neither Alpharius or Omegon are Psykers so their presence in the warp would not be as large as someone's such as Magnus or Horus (when under the influence of Chaos). Maybe that wasn't the Primarch but it was still Alpharius if that makes sense.

 Quarterdime wrote:
Well, a lot of solid counter points, but none that have really satisfied me with the whole... author's pet, as the OP put it.

The disparity between primarch and marine, both physical and psychic, the whole "twin primarchs" thing when the fluff makes no uncertainties about there being 20 primarchs, and that the other 2 got their own legions which means neither of them were Alpharius' twin...

...In the end this all just comes back to the same problem that keeps me from reading the Horus Heresy. They're writing the story backwards and when the equation stops adding up they need to bend the rules. You could say that Alpharius had to be smaller, had to have a twin, had to have the psychic gift of anonymity because they wrote themselves into a corner. The more justification Alpharius has for being the author's pet, the more he becomes the author's pet. It's a catch-22.

The only power, if it even is that, is that Alpharius somehow can suppress his whole Primarch glory halo. He's also the shortest of all Primarchs, while his Legionnaires are the tallest of the Space Marines. Both Ingo Pech and Kel Silonius are taller than Alpharius. Apparently, only Dorn can see through their disguises.

And he's a dead pet, then.

 Quarterdime wrote:

And by the way, just because the Alpha Legion gets beaten in the end doesn't mean they don't also suffer from the whole author's pet problem, too. I only ever see them get beat once they've decided to engage the enemy directly--as far as the whole "infiltrators extraordinaire" element is concerned, have they EVER botched a job?

Praetor of Dorn, Deliverance Lost, Scars, the Wolf King, HH3, and HH6 all include examples of what I would call "botched jobs," where they get their asses handed to them and/or lose when they engage the enemy directly. There's only a single post-Isstvan example of them pulling off a plan properly, unless it's against themselves. They've become clownishly bad at this point, serving the same role as Dr. Evil in Austin Powers. They would be cooler with a volcano lair, mind.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Don't try to get the Alpha Legion. It is deliberately written to be mysterious.
40k is not science fiction, it is science fantasy. A lot of things happen that are not logically explainable. The Primarchs and their special super powers is one of those things. All Primarchs have their own special trick. That of Alpharius is that he can appear as a normal Marine and that he can let a normal marine assume his appearance and power.

Also, don't read Praetorian of Dorn. It is bad. Really bad.

Also, if you think they are too good and are an author's pet, you have not actually read any of the BL series on them. They lose virtually everything and they are usually mistreated really badly by the author. The only other legion treated this badly are the Iron Warriors.
The real author's pets are the Ultramarines and especially the Imperial Fists.
The Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors have been degraded to being the saturday morning cartoon villains of the series.

I keep hearing that about the book. How bad are we talking?

A chainsword to the face.

Oh please do be specific!

Actually that's as specific as it gets.

Oh, look, the OP is someone who hasn't actually read the Alpha Legion's fiction properly and is complaining about them based on stale memes.

Let me put it in simple words for you, then:

The Alpha Legion is a Legion that believes the best way to win a fight is to rig it beforehand.
Their Primarch's inherent gimmick is to disguise himself in such a way that wouldn't normally be possible- and given that the Emperor routinely pulls the same trick in lore, it's hardly all that strange considering the likes of Corax and Curze.
Most of their undercover "operatives" are actually mortal and used as part of said intelligence gathering to rig their battles- something that both Legion and Praetorian of Dorn make a point of showing. I'm really starting to think you've never even read those novels. Your objection to "why would Alpharius even fight with these operatives around" is too nonsensical to even be worth answering.

Horus DOESN'T trust the Alpha Legion. "Chaos" doesn't care, and you seem to have missed that the Alpha Legion outright backstabs the Cabal the moment they outlive their usefulness in an attempt to take a third option. While we haven't seen what happens between the Heresy and M41, there's a very good chance the whole Legion goes off the rails, Radical Inquisitor style, because there's plenty of lore about them using various Chaotic tools by their M41 incarnation and the codex lore notes that their "unity of purpose" has become hopelessly derailed.

The Alpha Legion's entire gimmick is them being arrogant, overcomplicating simple problems and being needlessly bloody due to their own hubris and arrogance, something you'd know if you'd actually read Praetorian of Dorn. It isn't enough to win- they need to rub it in.

Hell, you seem surprised that the faction with a special rule outright called "martial hubris" is arrogant and trying to single-handedly change the course of the Heresy via a convoluted plan. What's your next trick, saying that the World Eaters are too keen on charging into close combat in Betrayer or that the Word Bearers were too preachy in Know No Fear?

As for "too good", we're talking about the same legion which has had fewer on screen outright victories against the other Legions than the Word Bearers? This meme is outright idiotic.

This just in: planning, deception, and strategy are useful tactics for an army without much interest in honorable combat.

 Quarterdime wrote:
Well, a lot of solid counter points, but none that have really satisfied me with the whole... author's pet, as the OP put it.

The disparity between primarch and marine, both physical and psychic, the whole "twin primarchs" thing when the fluff makes no uncertainties about there being 20 primarchs, and that the other 2 got their own legions which means neither of them were Alpharius' twin...

...In the end this all just comes back to the same problem that keeps me from reading the Horus Heresy. They're writing the story backwards and when the equation stops adding up they need to bend the rules. You could say that Alpharius had to be smaller, had to have a twin, had to have the psychic gift of anonymity because they wrote themselves into a corner. The more justification Alpharius has for being the author's pet, the more he becomes the author's pet. It's a catch-22.

None of that makes them more of an author's pet than any of the other primarchs. All primarchs were changed over the course of 40k's lifetime (Russ once used to be a mere Imperial Army general...) and all of them have super special snowflake powers. If anything Alpharius is far more toned down than the likes of Guilliman, Jonson, Russ, Dorn and Vulkan. Now those are author's pets. Unlike these, the AL has no BL author that really likes them and is dedicated to them. How could you possibly think one of the most neglected and abused legions in the fluff is an author's pet? What author's pet?

 Quarterdime wrote:
And by the way, just because the Alpha Legion gets beaten in the end doesn't mean they don't also suffer from the whole author's pet problem, too. I only ever see them get beat once they've decided to engage the enemy directly--as far as the whole "infiltrators extraordinaire" element is concerned, have they EVER botched a job?

They botch virtually every job outside of a few short parts in the FW book. I've you've only ever seen them get beat once you just have only read one story featuring them it seems.

Seriously, how often could someone like Dorn out-sneak Alpharius?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
Well, a lot of solid counter points, but none that have really satisfied me with the whole... author's pet, as the OP put it.

The disparity between primarch and marine, both physical and psychic, the whole "twin primarchs" thing when the fluff makes no uncertainties about there being 20 primarchs, and that the other 2 got their own legions which means neither of them were Alpharius' twin...

...In the end this all just comes back to the same problem that keeps me from reading the Horus Heresy. They're writing the story backwards and when the equation stops adding up they need to bend the rules. You could say that Alpharius had to be smaller, had to have a twin, had to have the psychic gift of anonymity because they wrote themselves into a corner. The more justification Alpharius has for being the author's pet, the more he becomes the author's pet. It's a catch-22.

None of that makes them more of an author's pet than any of the other primarchs. All primarchs were changed over the course of 40k's lifetime (Russ once used to be a mere Imperial Army general...) and all of them have super special snowflake powers. If anything Alpharius is far more toned down than the likes of Guilliman, Jonson, Russ, Dorn and Vulkan. Now those are author's pets. Unlike these, the AL has no BL author that really likes them and is dedicated to them. How could you possibly think one of the most neglected and abused legions in the fluff is an author's pet? What author's pet?

 Quarterdime wrote:
And by the way, just because the Alpha Legion gets beaten in the end doesn't mean they don't also suffer from the whole author's pet problem, too. I only ever see them get beat once they've decided to engage the enemy directly--as far as the whole "infiltrators extraordinaire" element is concerned, have they EVER botched a job?

They botch virtually every job outside of a few short parts in the FW book. I've you've only ever seen them get beat once you just have only read one story featuring them it seems.

True I haven't read any of the HH books, I was just giving my 2 cents. I've only read about them in things that didn't directly feature them, even though I don't think there's any exception to that rule without going into the Heresy, so I guess you could chalk up my experience to "only hearing about them in legends" or something


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But that is how they are depicted in 40k. As essentially villains that are perfect until the plot demands they be defeated, at which point they collapse like a folding chair.

For some reason, I suspect the OP is an agent of the Alpha Legion, looking to spread doubt and confusion. We should ignore this propaganda and focus on the Emperor.

 techsoldaten wrote:
For some reason, I suspect the OP is an agent of the Alpha Legion, looking to spread doubt and confusion. We should ignore this propaganda and focus on the Emperor.

By the way, I always found your profile pic funny.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
For some reason, I suspect the OP is an agent of the Alpha Legion, looking to spread doubt and confusion. We should ignore this propaganda and focus on the Emperor.

By the way, I always found your profile pic funny.

Someday our Codex will improve, and it won't seem that funny anymore!

Praetor of Dorn, Deliverance Lost, Scars, the Wolf King, HH3, and HH6 all include examples of what I would call "botched jobs," where they get their asses handed to them and/or lose when they engage the enemy directly. There's only a single post-Isstvan example of them pulling off a plan properly, unless it's against themselves. They've become clownishly bad at this point, serving the same role as Dr. Evil in Austin Powers. They would be cooler with a volcano lair, mind.

While I definitely agree that AL needs some love, I think Deliverance Lost was a win for them - they achieved their objective while denying the Raven Guard theirs. It's not a glorious win with all their agents wiped out like that, but the point of AL isn't to win those kind of standing victories.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Praetor of Dorn, Deliverance Lost, Scars, the Wolf King, HH3, and HH6 all include examples of what I would call "botched jobs," where they get their asses handed to them and/or lose when they engage the enemy directly. There's only a single post-Isstvan example of them pulling off a plan properly, unless it's against themselves. They've become clownishly bad at this point, serving the same role as Dr. Evil in Austin Powers. They would be cooler with a volcano lair, mind.

While I definitely agree that AL needs some love, I think Deliverance Lost was a win for them - they achieved their objective while denying the Raven Guard theirs. It's not a glorious win with all their agents wiped out like that, but the point of AL isn't to win those kind of standing victories.

Their objective was to use the cloning technology the Raven Guard developed to their own ends. To this end, they let Corax live by assassinating a World Eater ship captain. They failed.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

All your points are correct. Alpha legion makes no sense. Hence there's no Alpha Legion.
Yours truly, Alpharius.

Their objective was to use the cloning technology the Raven Guard developed to their own ends.

Maybe I misread the end of the book, but by the closing Omegon had the cloning tech and the Ravens assumed it was lost/tainted/etc. The Ravens didn't get access to a way to replenish their ranks quickly and the Alphas got what they were after.

Killing Corax was never necessarily part of it. I'd even venture to say given how some of the loyalist primarch's plot armor goes a whole ship blowing up around him might not have been enough to do it.

 Quarterdime wrote:

The disparity between primarch and marine, both physical and psychic, the whole "twin primarchs" thing when the fluff makes no uncertainties about there being 20 primarchs, and that the other 2 got their own legions which means neither of them were Alpharius' twin...

20 primarchs as in 20 different gentic sequences of which perhaps 1 of them twinned. If there were 2 of them, they wouldnt have gotten 2 legions because each legion had a unique genetic sequence but both alpharius and omegon had the same genetic sequence and all their marines had the same gene seed.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Their objective was to use the cloning technology the Raven Guard developed to their own ends.

Maybe I misread the end of the book, but by the closing Omegon had the cloning tech and the Ravens assumed it was lost/tainted/etc. The Ravens didn't get access to a way to replenish their ranks quickly and the Alphas got what they were after.

Killing Corax was never necessarily part of it. I'd even venture to say given how some of the loyalist primarch's plot armor goes a whole ship blowing up around him might not have been enough to do it.

The cloning tech was tainted by the Dark AdMech, whom couldn't extract the daemon-virus thing. The Alpha Legion let Corax go on purpose. I'm not entirely sure why at the time, as they couldn't have known he was gonna get his paws on cloning tech, but that's what it seems like.

You have to read "Deliverance Loss" to understand a bit more about the ALpha Legion, it tells their true motives and opens a door on why we are not meant to understand the Alpha Legion at this time.

As for Word Bearers getting the shaft...

You must read first heretic, Without Lorgar nothing would have happened. He was the Orchestrator of it all.
Poor Magnus tried to stop him, then horus, then warn the emperor and ended up getting lofted into the mix of bad legions. When Space Pups were sent to prospero. (So the only 2 legions that could have stopped Dropsite massacre were carefully taken out of the fight).

Lorgar does seem more suited to serve, as his quest for higher purpose and some sort of God like force guides him. But there is a book later on, before the siege of terra where Lorgar, though presumed to be the weakest primarch. Beats down Fulgrim, then Perturabo at nearly the same time, and when Horus tried to calm him down by putting a hand on Lorgars shoulder, Lorgar willed the hand off of him and sits Horus down and Horus is struggling to even talk as Lorgar explains X Y Z...

Tsilber wrote:
You have to read "Deliverance Loss" to understand a bit more about the ALpha Legion, it tells their true motives and opens a door on why we are not meant to understand the Alpha Legion at this time.

As for Word Bearers getting the shaft...

You must read first heretic, Without Lorgar nothing would have happened. He was the Orchestrator of it all.
Poor Magnus tried to stop him, then horus, then warn the emperor and ended up getting lofted into the mix of bad legions. When Space Pups were sent to prospero. (So the only 2 legions that could have stopped Dropsite massacre were carefully taken out of the fight).

Lorgar does seem more suited to serve, as his quest for higher purpose and some sort of God like force guides him. But there is a book later on, before the siege of terra where Lorgar, though presumed to be the weakest primarch. Beats down Fulgrim, then Perturabo at nearly the same time, and when Horus tried to calm him down by putting a hand on Lorgars shoulder, Lorgar willed the hand off of him and sits Horus down and Horus is struggling to even talk as Lorgar explains X Y Z...

Legion has more on the Alpha Legion's raison d'être than Deliverance Lost.

I think we all are aware it was Kor Phaeron (not Lorgar) that set the events in motion. However, that doesn't change them getting constantly spanked by the other Legions.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
You have to read "Deliverance Loss" to understand a bit more about the ALpha Legion, it tells their true motives and opens a door on why we are not meant to understand the Alpha Legion at this time.

As for Word Bearers getting the shaft...

You must read first heretic, Without Lorgar nothing would have happened. He was the Orchestrator of it all.
Poor Magnus tried to stop him, then horus, then warn the emperor and ended up getting lofted into the mix of bad legions. When Space Pups were sent to prospero. (So the only 2 legions that could have stopped Dropsite massacre were carefully taken out of the fight).

Lorgar does seem more suited to serve, as his quest for higher purpose and some sort of God like force guides him. But there is a book later on, before the siege of terra where Lorgar, though presumed to be the weakest primarch. Beats down Fulgrim, then Perturabo at nearly the same time, and when Horus tried to calm him down by putting a hand on Lorgars shoulder, Lorgar willed the hand off of him and sits Horus down and Horus is struggling to even talk as Lorgar explains X Y Z...

Legion has more on the Alpha Legion's raison d'être than Deliverance Lost.

I think we all are aware it was Kor Phaeron (not Lorgar) that set the events in motion. However, that doesn't change them getting constantly spanked by the other Legions.

I disagree that legion gives more than deliverance.
I disagree that Kor Pharon had more involvment than Lorgar. One action from Argal Tel,(first heretic, red blades chapter) proves to have more effect for the greater plan than anything KP did.

And word bearers take their share of loss's, but know no fear, First heretic, Betrayer, and Drop site short stories show they give a lot also, and give their fair share of beat downs.

But thats opinion. Its common perception they were weaker for those that are not fans of them. But again if not for them, the heresy would not have happen and 40k would be way different. Again opinion vs, opinion, weighned against favoratism and disdain for them.
Ultimately, hear what you are stating, and respect you opinion of how you perceive it, and agree to disagree. OP or anyone else can chose to read and formulate their own opinions on the matter.

No guys you got it all wrong you see..

Tsilber wrote:


I disagree that legion gives more than deliverance.
I disagree that Kor Pharon had more involvment than Lorgar. One action from Argal Tel,(first heretic, red blades chapter) proves to have more effect for the greater plan than anything KP did.

And word bearers take their share of loss's, but know no fear, First heretic, Betrayer, and Drop site short stories show they give a lot also, and give their fair share of beat downs.

But thats opinion. Its common perception they were weaker for those that are not fans of them. But again if not for them, the heresy would not have happen and 40k would be way different. Again opinion vs, opinion, weighned against favoratism and disdain for them.
Ultimately, hear what you are stating, and respect you opinion of how you perceive it, and agree to disagree. OP or anyone else can chose to read and formulate their own opinions on the matter.

Legion showed the Twins, it showed their [new] reasoning (albeit poorly) behind siding with Horus, and their [new] modus operandi. There were no real revelations in Deliverance Lost.

Kor Phaeron was the one that led Lorgar down to path to Chaos. No Kor Phaeron (and possibly Erebus), and Lorgar doesn't fall.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Tsilber wrote:


I disagree that legion gives more than deliverance.
I disagree that Kor Pharon had more involvment than Lorgar. One action from Argal Tel,(first heretic, red blades chapter) proves to have more effect for the greater plan than anything KP did.

And word bearers take their share of loss's, but know no fear, First heretic, Betrayer, and Drop site short stories show they give a lot also, and give their fair share of beat downs.

But thats opinion. Its common perception they were weaker for those that are not fans of them. But again if not for them, the heresy would not have happen and 40k would be way different. Again opinion vs, opinion, weighned against favoratism and disdain for them.
Ultimately, hear what you are stating, and respect you opinion of how you perceive it, and agree to disagree. OP or anyone else can chose to read and formulate their own opinions on the matter.

Legion showed the Twins, it showed their [new] reasoning (albeit poorly) behind siding with Horus, and their [new] modus operandi. There were no real revelations in Deliverance Lost.

Kor Phaeron was the one that led Lorgar down to path to Chaos. No Kor Phaeron (and possibly Erebus), and Lorgar doesn't fall.

Again we can agree to disagree on what doors Deliverance Lost opened that Legion did not, I would suggest re-read it? And Ill re-read Legion to see if i missed anything.

What book is Kor Phaeron such a major role?
Because First Heretic, tells a different story of how and why Lorgar came to embrace the Chaos Gods. It could have been John X raising him instead of KP, Lorgar still has the higher purpose faith, The issue with Emperor Daddy and destruction of Monarchia still takes place, and Lorgar still takes the "pilgrimage".

Tsilber wrote:

Again we can agree to disagree on what doors Deliverance Lost opened that Legion did not, I would suggest re-read it? And Ill re-read Legion to see if i missed anything.

What book is Kor Phaeron such a major role?
Because First Heretic, tells a different story of how and why Lorgar came to embrace the Chaos Gods. It could have been John X raising him instead of KP, Lorgar still has the higher purpose faith, The issue with Emperor Daddy and destruction of Monarchia still takes place, and Lorgar still takes the "pilgrimage".

Out of curiosity, what was so revealing about Deliverance Lost?

Starting off with the FW description of Kor Phaeron

Along with Erebus, Kor Phaeron has the ear of his Primarch and, more than any other individual, is responsible for Lorgar’s nature as a seeker after the truth, wherever that truth may lie and whatever terrible secrets it might reveal.

And in First Heretic, which you mention, it's Kor Phaeron (and Erebus) that lead him to the Eye of Terror on the Pilgrimage. ADB usually writes in a style of a squad (Argel Tal), so as to leave room for "your guys" in the story, while sketching the important events in broad strokes to retain some mystery.

I thought it pretty clear in first Heretic that KP had been worshipping chaos all along and subtly guided Lorgar to it after Monarchia.

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought it pretty clear in first Heretic that KP had been worshipping chaos all along and subtly guided Lorgar to it after Monarchia.

Yep. The Old Faith and all that.