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Did you read nothing I said?
Read the paragraph above your unusual grenades box.

A model that can use such a grenade as a melee weapon can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of attacks in its profile or any bonuses. Different grenades have different profiles WHEN USED IN THIS MANNER, as explained below.


The part where it identifies grenades that are used as melee weapons and how when used in this manner they are unusual grenades?

Please show me on rad grenades where they are used as a melee attack.

Rad grenades are only grenades in name. They do not replace any shooting or melee attack and the unusual grenades rule does not apply to them. They do not even have blast, you have done little research into your point and clearly not reading mine.

I read everything you wrote you selectively dismiss the rules you don't like and therefore keep coming to the wrong conclusion

Rad grenades are a grenade without a profile and therefore there special rules determine what they are and do

Yes they are a grenade hence the name rad grenade

You may not like this but that's why the rule exists to govern grenades that cannot be used as a thrown or melee weapon in fact the rule if you read it says they can't be used in that way


No they don't have blast I am using blast as an example of another special rule that doesn't stack on the model that benefits from it but has a cumulative impact on an enemy unit to point a flaw in the argument of the people other than yourself who say it doesn't stack

Because if there line of argument is correct after my unit is first hit by a blast weapon it becomes immune to all further blast weapons

It is a different discussion to your's. To show I have been reading your's




A grenade isn't a grenade even if it says it's a grenade and it's named a grenade

the rulebook has 444 uses of the words "special rules" of which only 2 matter the other 442 are irrelevant

Everyone else keeps coming to the wrong conclusion because they read the other rules such as lists being non exaustive and what constitute's basic rules not having a clear definition making their broad statement the 2 lines you read subjective which is clearly wrong because only those 2 matter and they are crystal clear

And if something disagrees with your position it doesn't count even in a direct quote because your right and 2 lines trump all even though there defining statement is 7 paragraphs long and vague

Lastly when what you say contradicts the RAW you are correct and we should accept that as you have told us the right answer

You are asserting what is and isn't a special rule. There is a section listed for them. If it is otherwise a special rule it is indicated on a data sheet or codex or explicitly stated.

Page 8 provides permission to wargear to modify stats.
It has a basic rule stating it can perform this function.
It is not breaking or bending a basic rule so there is no requirement for it to have or need a special rule.

There are not 400 iterations of special rule. If something is identified as one it is, otherwise it isnt.

By your logic a unit cannot have two grenade launchers, if one of them fires the other can't and also a 3rd guy can't throw a grenade. Because they are all named grenade, the name of a wargear has no rules value, it is fluff.

Yes blast is a special rule, no arguments there.
Unusual grenades states right above the box the criteria for what qualified as an unusual grenade.
If you look at the grenade list it apply to haywire and meltabombs. Both of which are special rules in the special rule section.

Your entire arguments so far are on the basis that something that isn't a special rule, is a special rule, because you think it should be.

The section directly above is entitled vehicles gun emplacements and monstrous creatures and the portion you misuse is

"a model can use such a grenade as a melee weapon, but can only make one attack regardless of its number of attacks or its profile bonuses, different grenades have different profiles when they are used in this manner see below
The unusual grenades rule
Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules. Unless specifically stated otherwise these grenades cannot be thrown or used as melee weapons"



It is explicitly stated that they are special rules in the unusual grenade rule
The criteria is "some grenades do not have a profile"
Rad grenades have no profile and are therefore this type of grenade. the key part is "Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules." ergo the rules accompanying rad grenades are special rules


by your logic any grenade that doesn't have a profile would not meet the criteria for unusual grenades defeating the purpose of the rule which is to govern them.

It is explicitly stated as a special rule so the pg8 argument of whether it could do it without being a special rule is irrelevant it is a special rule

the word special is next to the word rule 444 times in the rulebook stretched across nearly every section this makes it difficult to determine what constitutes a "basic rule" it does not mean they are all separate definitions

That is where the logic of the people who say rad grenades don't stack leads. It is the same argument. I don't agree with their standpoint because rad grenades stack but sometimes rather than repeat the same line again and again it makes more sense to try and reason it a different way to show them that their logic doesn't work (Note non of them have responded because the idea is ludicrous)

yes war gear's name has value check the FAQ on what constitutes a plasma weapon for example and you will find its any weapon with the name plasma in its title to give you a clear example

I only argue its a special rule because its explicitly stated to be a special rule a fact you keep selectively ignoring despite multiple people telling you it is and being quoted the rule explicitly stating that it is

You are still wrong.
This is cherry picking words out of the entire statement.

It states a grenade can be used as a melee attack.

WHEN USED IN THIS MANNER SEE BELOW.

And what is below? Unusual grenades.

Are they being used in that manner?
As a melee attack?
Yes or no?

no its not cherry picking that's what your doing

what is below is separate categories for every type of grenade
so unusual, assault, plasma , defensive, haywire, krak, melta bombs. The first happens to be unusual that does not mean it only applies to unusual

think about your argument

grenade can be used as a melee attack see below

and then unusual grenades - Unless specifically stated otherwise these grenades cannot be thrown or used as melee weapons"

so for it to be an unusual grenade by your definition it would have to be usable as a melee attack and then not be usable as a melee attack unless it specifically stated while not having a profile.

what could possibly meet this criteria


Most of these categories can be used in that above way as it is a basic rule unusual grenades is the only category that can't (unless otherwise stated) and represents a deviation from the basic rules of the game hence why it is separated off (note this is what we call a "special rule")

You mean like circumstances where haywire grenades or meltabombs do not have profiles and use their special rules?

And those grenades are listed as grenades in the grenades section.

The section for unusual grenades is predicated upon the fact that the above critera is being met in order to be considered an unusual grenade. You are looking at what an unusual grenade is and reverse applying it to another piece of wargear without it having met the critera to be one in the first place.

Grenades have a shooting attack replacement, hence a shooting profile. Therefore grenades that are unusual are grenades that do not have a shooting profile and are used as a melee attack. Hence making them unusual grenades.

Again by your logic two grenades launchers and an assault grenade could not be used in the same shooting attack because they all have grenade in the name.

Haywire grenades have their own category

and haywire grenades have a profile they are therefore not unusual grenades as the criteria for an unusual grenades is that it doesn't have a profile

no my logic is they can

a model cannot benefit from a rule more than once but the three models firing are only benefiting from the rule once. Just as three models in a unit may benefit from furious charge or 3 separate grenade launchers with the blast rule may all fire at the same unit this is all fine.

the models that are adversely impacted are not the ones effected by the rule.


Now if a model had the blast rule twice it wouldn't stack just as furious charge wouldn't stack twice on the same model



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor 1 charges 1's grenade has the rule it applies once and gives unit b -1t

Then Inquisitor 2 charges 2's grenade has the rule it applies once and gives unit b-1t

Unit b has -2t net

The model gaining a benefit is the inquisitor it is only applied once in in both charges the unit they impact on is irrelevant


Automatically Appended Next Post:
if you don't accept that interpretation you have to explain why you can use three blast weapons on a unit in the same shooting phase

NB The grenade launcher is not listed in the main rules but variants are listed in several codex's such as the astartes grenade launcher which is listed as a ranged weapon and therefore follows the ranged weapon rules and not the grenade rules
If your stuck in differentiation try to consider is grenade being used as an adjective or a noun if it is a noun it is a grenade in grenade launcher it is an adjective and therefore it is not

Which is entirely predicated upon as assumption it is a special rule. Which you have yet to prove.

Unusual grenades states that when used as a replacement for a melee attack to see the below, which is unusual grenades.

Melta bombs cannot be used as a melee weapon and have no melee weapon attack, hence being an unusual grenade. The special rules for melta bombs tell them to use the included profile. They still do not have a melee profile.

Haywire grenades also do not have a melee profile, it states they cannot be use in assaults and remember unusual grenades is referring to a melee attack, which haywire and melta do not possess and you make melee attacks in the assault phase.

What you are failing to understand is that all of the rules on the grenades page are about the replacement of shooting or melee attack with those grenades and the circumstances and criteria do so.

Rad grenades do not replace a shooting or melee attack so do not require a profile. Just like any other wargear that doesn't attack, like an iron halo doesn't have a profile, that doesn't make an iron halo a grenade.

They are permitted per page 8 of the basic rules to modify stats as wargear is allowed to do so. They are not breaking a rule.

They do not have a special rule and one is not required.

I proved with the unusual grenade rule which you continue to dismiss

"Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules. Unless specifically stated otherwise these grenades cannot be thrown or used as melee weapons"

That is all it says the rest is you conflating standard rules with a special rule.

Melta bombs have a profile therefore they are not an unusual grenade

melta bomb R- S8 AP1 armourbane unwieldy
Haywire grenade R- S2 AP- Haywire

they also have their own category of rule


Notice "these grenades cannot be thrown or used as melee weapons" so clearly they are not all about the replacement of shooting or melee attack with those grenades there is a category that deviates from this called unusual grenades
a special rule is required because the unusual grenades are breaking a basic rule by not always being used as weapons

You proved nothing with unusual grenades.
The qualifier to even look at the box labeled unusual grenades, is entirely contingent upon you using a grenade as a melee attack.

Rad grenades are not making or replacing a melee attack, we have no technical reason to consult the unusual grenades text box.

You are removing that requirement in your argument.

Melta bombs do not have a MELEE profile, please remember you are replacing a melee attack. The rules for melta and haywire provide you a special profile to use instead of a melee profile. This is so you can't punch a cultist with a melta bomb or have two melee weapons.

The missing a profile you are referring too indeed does not exist, they do not have one. They then have special rules notating how you can use them in replacement of a melee attack. The lack of a profile being referred too is an assault profile.

Ceann wrote:
No, you did nothing.

Snapshooting is basic rule.
Going to ground is a basic rule.

Page 8 gives wargear explicit permission to modify characteristics.

Page 8 is a basic rule.

Rad grenades are a war gear.
They do not have a special rule.
They are not breaking a basic rule.

Read:

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

Do Rad Grenades break the rules of the game? Is it normal for any actions to reduce the stat profile of a model?

Snapshooting is a basic rule, but only for specific situations. Going to Ground is a basic rule, but only for specific situations. Anything that that forces snapshooting outside of the norm is a special rule. Anything that forces a unit to Go To Ground outside of the unit being shot and/or the owning player's choice is a special rule.

Dude really?
Page 8 BRB, grants wargear the ability to modify characteristics.

No rule is being broken.
So a special rule is not required.
Nothing is normal, we are doing exactly what we are told.
Psyammo modifys, brain mines modify, iron halo modifys, omnispex modifys, Camo nets, seems pretty normal to me.

You are right there are special rules that do things differently, that has nothing to do with this. Wargear changing stats is not new, basic shooting changes your wounds, no special rule required.

Unless you can point to the special rule that rad grenades have then they don't have one and one isn't required.

If something is a special rule it is stated as such, in a data sheet or in the BRB section or codex.

Demonstrate that rad grenades have a special rule and also demonstrate this odd scenario everyone's keeps saying but can't point too that there are fake special rules and we have to consider them as such without them being that.

"Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules"

Rad grenades do not have a profile therefore their rules are special rules

"During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase'

it doesn't matter whether this is required the unusal grenade rule specifies they are special rules

Ceann wrote:
Dude really?
Page 8 BRB, grants wargear the ability to modify characteristics.

No rule is being broken.
So a special rule is not required.
Nothing is normal, we are doing exactly what we are told.
Psyammo modifys, brain mines modify, iron halo modifys, omnispex modifys, Camo nets, seems pretty normal to me.

You are right there are special rules that do things differently. Wargear change stats is not new. Hell shooting changes your wounds.

Unless you can point to the special rule that rad grenades have then they don't have one and one isn't required.

The modification itself is performed by a special rule of the Wargear. It is not normal for a model's characteristic to be modified. The statement under Modifiers is that they "can" do it, not will do it.

Just because we are doing what we are told, does not mean it isn't a special rule. It's a change to the normal run of the game.

Can you demonstrate where in the rules where it states from The Turn through Morale that any attacks or presence of a model or use of a Wargear always modifies a stat?

The Boltgun does carry a Special Rule in its Type called Rapid Fire, just as a Bolt Pistol carries a special rule in its type called Pistol. Meltaguns also carry a special rule called "Melta". By your assessment, these change nothing and are not special rules since this is how the game normally operates and we are just doing what we are told to do.

No. Melta is in the special rules section.
Pistol is a weapon type from the weapons section, not the special rules section, jus like assault and rapid fire are not in the special rules section.

You seem to have a strange opinion about what is and isn't a special rule. If I don't see it in the special rules section or notated as such in its data sheet or codex then it is not a special rule, it is a basic rule.

It states clearly under profiles what the weapon types are and that special rules will be found in the special rules section.

It is not him that a strange opinion about special rules is the person who has disagreed with every poster about what constitutes a special rule.

Well sometimes people are wrong.

The only special rules that exist are notated in the special rules section or are described as on their data sheet or codex. Any other consideration is your opinion.

I find your statement to be completely disingenuous to the spirit of RAW. I am not misrepresenting any rule as something else, you are.

I have asked where this wargear is stated as having a special rule and you have done anything but that. It has to have a special rule to qualify as a singular modifier.

We have page 8, basic rules allowing modification.
We have a piece of wargear performing modification.

You have both alluded that it's a special rule but cannot point to where it is a special rule.

To be a special rule it has to break or bend the rules, it is not per page 8.

In order to be an unusual grenade it has to be replacing a melee attack, it is not doing that.

Both of these arguments assume rad grenades have met the criteria to be considered a certain thing, while it has not actually satisfied those prerequisites.

That you don't accept the raw doesn't make it opinion we have quoted the rule to you proving their special rules you choose not accept the raw that is your choice but it doesn't change the raw


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to pointing for the 30th time it's the unusual grenade rule

Explain to me how it is the unusual grenades.

Before we even get into what unusual grenades are, which is a different topic entirely we first look at when it applies.

The rules on that page notate that when a grenade is used in melee, to replace melee attacks, you SEE BELOW.

And below is unusual grenades.

We are not using rad grenades to replace a melee attack. Everything stated in unusual grenades is contingent upon you using a grenade in melee.

So if you feel there is an error in this please point it out to me.

Ceann wrote:No. Melta is in the special rules section.

Location means nothing when we have a definition which places something in the same category.

Ceann wrote:Pistol is a weapon type from the weapons section, not the special rules section, jus like assault and rapid fire are not in the special rules section.

And the ability to magically become a different type of Weapon during a phase is not unusual? Again, this is not part of the standard rules in the Shooting Phase or Assault Phase. They bend or break the rule of the game, so "special rule".

Ceann wrote:You seem to have a strange opinion about what is and isn't a special rule. If I don't see it in the special rules section or notated as such in its data sheet or codex then it is not a special rule, it is a basic rule.

So Chapter Tactics is not a Special Rule? It's not listed in the Special Rules section of the codex, after all.

Again, review the introduction of "Special Rules". It provides the definition I am going by. You are going by a different definition that excludes the very definition the rulebook supplies.

Ceann wrote:Well sometimes people are wrong.

Especially if they refuse to read up in the book as noted, and apply what they have read?

Ceann wrote:The only special rules that exist are notated in the special rules section or are described as on their data sheet or codex. Any other consideration is your opinion.

Incorrect. I have quoted it and referenced it. You are denying this.

Ceann wrote:I have asked where this wargear is stated as having a special rule and you have done anything but that. It has to have a special rule to qualify as a singular modifier.

Per the definition of special rules, it bends or breaks the game's rules.

Ceann wrote:We have page 8, basic rules allowing modification.
We have a piece of wargear performing modification.

You have both alluded that it's a special rule but cannot point to where it is a special rule.

To be a special rule it has to break or bend the rules, it is not per page 8.

Okay, show me where in the basic rules that every grenade does the affect of Rad Grenades. If every grenades does not do this or every grenade specifically state it does not do this, then this specific affect is a basic rule. Alternaitvely, the Shooting Phase or Assault Phase instructions would tell you that anyone carrying Grenades would do exactly what rad grenades say they do.

Capacity to do something is a basic rule. It's actually a general statement and it covers the basic rules of modifiers themselves. It is not defining what Wargear and Special Rules actively do.

Here's a semi-related question in terms of defining what is or isn't a special rule. Beasts and Cavalry can move 12" in the Movement Phase, special rule or not?

Page 8 states wargear is allowed to modify, add subtract etc from stats. This is a basic rule, a basic rule is not being broken a basic rule is being used.

If you read the details for weapons it states that the weapon type and special rules, of which melta is a special rule.

Nothing is magically changing types. Please elaborate.

Chapter tactics are a special rule as noted on their data sheet and their codex. They may not be in the BRB section but they are in the codex SM as a special rule. Not sure why this is a question as I mentioned codex and datasheets in the line you quoted.

What exactly is it you are presuming I have not read.

The special rules description of breaking of bending rules, which isn't happening here anyway per page 8 BRB, is to inform you that the rules of the special rules section will contradict other rules not in the special rule section and that other special rules will also do the same. It is not a free license to brand things as special rules at your whim.

I don't need to prove what grenades do, they all do different things hence being different items. The requirement to not stack is by having a special rule. PER page 8 wargear can modify stats.

We have no special rule listed for rad grenades.
Rad grenades are not unusual grenades, they do not replace a melee attack which is a requisite to be unusual.
Rad grenades do not make a shooting attack, they technically aren't even grenades besides the name. They are a wargear that has a stated effect and when the effect occurs.

What needs to be established is that rad grenades have a special, they do not on their wargear entry.

Or that they do not have a rule allowing them to reduce a characteristic, which they do on page 8.

As for calv or beast rules I don't know own them offhand I'll have to get back to you but as I don't recall seeing anything about them I'd imagine it's not a special rule but a unit type.

All wargear modify a characteristic as a basic rule?

What characteristic does my Warrior's gauss flayer modify?

Calvary can move 12 as defined under the unit type calvary in the unit section. Units of the calvary type gain fleet and hammer of wrath special rules.


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col_impact wrote:
All wargear modify a characteristic as a basic rule?

What characteristic does my Warrior's gauss flayer modify?

Wargear are given a default permission to be able too per page 8. If it does or does not would be up to the gear in question.

Ceann wrote:
Calvary can move 12 as defined under the unit type calvary in the unit section. Units of the calvary type gain fleet and hammer of wrath special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
All wargear modify a characteristic as a basic rule?

What characteristic does my Warrior's gauss flayer modify?

Wargear are given a default permission to be able too per page 8. If it does or does not would be up to the gear in question.

If it's a basic rule then it means that ALL wargear modifies a characteristic unless it is specifically stated otherwise.

What characteristic does my Monolith's Eternity Gate modify? The Eternity Gate rule does not specifically mention that it does not modify a characteristic, so what characteristic does it modify as a basic rule?

Also going back a couple but the unusual grenade rule has no restrict on replacing a melee attack as part of that rule says you can't make a melee attack with it unless the special rules of the unusual grenade say you can

Ceann wrote:
Page 8 states wargear is allowed to modify, add subtract etc from stats. This is a basic rule, a basic rule is not being broken a basic rule is being used.

So where does it state that all grenades reduce a model's T by 1?

Ceann wrote:
If you read the details for weapons it states that the weapon type and special rules, of which melta is a special rule.

That wasn't the argument. Location of where the special rule means nothing is the point.

Ceann wrote:
Nothing is magically changing types. Please elaborate.

Read the Pistol type for more information. Why didn't you do that before stating nothing changes?

Ceann wrote:
Chapter tactics are a special rule as noted on their data sheet and their codex. They may not be in the BRB section but they are in the codex SM as a special rule. Not sure why this is a question as I mentioned codex and datasheets in the line you quoted.

But not where it explains it in the codex. In fact, it has it's own special section of the Appendix separated out for it just like the Armoury.

Ceann wrote:
What exactly is it you are presuming I have not read.

The special rules description of breaking of bending rules, which isn't happening here anyway per page 8 BRB, is to inform you that the rules of the special rules section will contradict other rules not in the special rule section and that other special rules will also do the same. It is not a free license to brand things as special rules at your whim.

I don't need to prove what grenades do, they all do different things hence being different items. The requirement to not stack is by having a special rule. PER page 8 wargear can modify stats.

In order for what rad grenades to be doing everything basic, everything about them would have to be defined within the Phase rules, or even as part of the base rules for all of that type of Wargear.

Not every Wargear modifies a Characteristic. In fact, those that do so to an enemy unit are rather rare, with Blind being the most common. The point of the Modifier rules on page 8 is not to establish Wargear modifying things is a base rule, but to establish base rules for when that actually happens. It talks about Wargear and Special Rules doing so to establish where we might see this happening. That's it.

Ceann wrote:
We have no special rule listed for rad grenades.
Rad grenades are not unusual grenades, they do not replace a melee attack which is a requisite to be unusual.
Rad grenades do not make a shooting attack, they technically aren't even grenades besides the name. They are a wargear that has a stated effect and when the effect occurs.

What needs to be established is that rad grenades have a special, they do not on their wargear entry.

Or that they do not have a rule allowing them to reduce a characteristic, which they do on page 8.

But not all grenades do the same thing as Rad Grenades, so that makes them unusual. They are only available for a couple factions, this would also make them unusual. They are not defined in the BRB, that makes them unusual.

Therefore, what makes Rad Grenades actually "usual"?

Ceann wrote:
As for calv or beast rules I don't know own them offhand I'll have to get back to you but as I don't recall seeing anything about them I'd imagine it's not a special rule but a unit type.

Then everyone can move 12"?

Remember the definition of "special rule". It is not a "where it is printed", but "what does it do?" definition.

U02dah4 wrote:
Also going back a couple but the unusual grenade rule has no restrict on on replacing a melee attack as part of that rule says you can't make an attack

Dude.

The box that says unusual grenades tells you what unusual grenades do.

The paragraph above that tells you what an unusual grenade IS.
You only consult the box labeled unusual grenades IF you are replacing a melee attack to use one.

We are not doing that. Please read that whole section.

Mr charistoph while i agree with most of what you wrote unusual grenades are a specificly defined special rule in the grenades section of the main rule book that reads

"Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules. Unless specifically stated otherwise these grenades cannot be thrown or used as melee weapons"

It is the lack of a profile that makes rad grenades unusual


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Also going back a couple but the unusual grenade rule has no restrict on on replacing a melee attack as part of that rule says you can't make an attack

Dude.

The box that says unusual grenades tells you what unusual grenades do.

The paragraph above that tells you what an unusual grenade IS.
You only consult the box labeled unusual grenades IF you are replacing a melee attack to use one.

We are not doing that. Please read that whole section.

You can say we are not doing that all you want but me and the three gaming groups I play at are going to do it because that's the raw the above section does not apply to unusual grenades the bit your referring to is referring to the entire grenades section and the unusual grenades special rule overides that as you can't make a melee attack without a profile

It doesn't state all grenades reduce a Stat by one, if you read them they do not all say that. They have permission to do so by virtue of being wargear they are not to do so.

The pistol type has a rule that counts it as an extra weapon in assault. Where is the confusion?

If you go to a unit that has chapter tactics it will be listed under the special rules section of the datasheet. With the words special rules.

Word games with unusual. Unusual grenades are a rule for grenades that replace a melee attack, otherwise you could punch a cultist with a meltabomb, or count as having two weapons. Hence the need for a section elaborating on how to use grenades that replace a melee attack. Rad grenades do not replace a melee attack which I'd required to reference unusual grenades.

Can everyone move 12, no... look at the unit types section and a units data sheet. As you can see a unit has a unit type and each type will show the base moment of units of that type. So any unit that I'd a calvary unit can move 12, infantry are a different type of unit.