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Just for the record of following this thread, Ceann has quoted several rules per the tenets to support his stance while basically everyone else has pulled a Col_ of only partially quoting rules and then repeating said excerpts of rules over and over.

Not a single person has given a plausible responses as to why they randomly use the Unusual Grenades rule without first meeting the qualifier. You are basically making a RAI assumption to classify Rad Grenades as Unusual in direct contradiction of the RAW.

The only counter with any legs is that once -1 T has been met, the rules have semantically been met.

 Brother Ramses wrote:

Not a single person has given a plausible responses as to why they randomly use the Unusual Grenades rule without first meeting the qualifier. You are basically making a RAI assumption to classify Rad Grenades as Unusual in direct contradiction of the RAW.
.

Do rad grenades have a profile?

Yes and the rules for the wargear state two circumstances, assaulting or being assaulted as the critera to "suffer-1 toughness".

If I assault a unit twice you are asserting that the second trigger does not work because the effect has already been applied. However an effect not being able to be applied twice is for special rules.


The rules for the wargear rad grenades are the basic rules contained in the IA or inquisition codex for that wargear. Skitarii Vanguard have a special rule rad saturation, because it is a special rule it does not stack. Skitarii war plate is not a special rule. If it was then the bonus to the unit to its armor save would only apply the first time it was fired at and the second time he would have no armor save right? Because he already benefited from the save? This is why wargear have special rules, not ARE special rules.

Does the data sheet for rad grenades state they have any special rules? No.

In order for it to have one it must be breaking a rule. Page 8 gives wargear the ability to modifying stats.

Basic rules state they apply to all models. Is there a model that can assault a unit with rad grenades and not receive a -1? No. So the effect it provides, apply to all models.

Does skyfire apply equally to all models? No, it applies to models with flying. It is a special rule. It breaks the normal snap fire rules for shooting at a flyer that normally affects all models.

Does melta apply equally to all models? No, it applies only to vehicles, so it is a special rule. It adds an extra d6 that under normal shooting all models would not have.

These are both, amazingly, located in the special rules section.

Show me the basic rule that rad grenades are breaking, we are allowed to modify stats per page 8 with wargear.


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Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:

Not a single person has given a plausible responses as to why they randomly use the Unusual Grenades rule without first meeting the qualifier. You are basically making a RAI assumption to classify Rad Grenades as Unusual in direct contradiction of the RAW.
.

Do rad grenades have a profile?

Does an omnispex have a profile? Does terminator armor? How about Camo nets? These are all unusual grenades too right? All gear without a profile are grenades?

The criteria for unusual grenades is listed directly above unusual grenades and it is using a grenade to replace melee attacks on a vehicle, MC, or emplacement. If we are not making a melee attack with a grenade then we have not met the criteria to "use the below" which is unusual grenades.

Are we making a melee attack with rad grenades? No? Then we have no need to "use the below" in fact this takes place when assaults are declared these rules couldn't even apply if you wanted them too as you are not even in the sub phase for melee.

You can Thunderwolf Mount to the list of wargear that modifies stats without it being a special rule.

Perhaps the Unusual Grenades thing is a red herring. Per the wording of the rule all that matters is that a unit has charged or been charged by a unit with Rad Grenades. Whether that happens once or more doesn't seem to matter, you suffer a simple -1 Toughness regardless.

Ceann wrote:

The criteria for unusual grenades is listed directly above unusual grenades and it is using a grenade to replace melee attacks on a vehicle, MC, or emplacement. If we are not making a melee attack with a grenade then we have not met the criteria to "use the below" which is unusual grenades.

Are we making a melee attack with rad grenades? No? Then we have no need to "use the below" in fact this takes place when assaults are declared these rules couldn't even apply if you wanted them too as you are not even in the sub phase for melee.

Are you even reading the rules? You are spreading misinformation. Here is what the actual rules say.



The section on Unusual grenades is formatted as a 'break out' and discusses the exception (grenades without profiles) to what was mentioned above. The 'break out' is a self-contained definition for what an unusual grenade is. By default, Unusual Grenades are not used as a Melee weapon and so do not replace a Melee attack as per usual grenades.


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xlDuke wrote:
Perhaps the Unusual Grenades thing is a red herring. Per the wording of the rule all that matters is that a unit has charged or been charged by a unit with Rad Grenades. Whether that happens once or more doesn't seem to matter, you suffer a simple -1 Toughness regardless.

Correct. No one has proven that the effect is cumulative.

See Zimko quote below.

Zimko wrote:The exact wording of the rule is this: 'During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase'

The rule is asking you if the enemy unit has been charged by a unit equipped with rad grenades. It doesn't care how many times it has been charged. Only that 'during a turn' it has been charged. Thus the modifier only applies once. It would need specific wording that tells you to apply it multiple times.

Ceann wrote:

Does an omnispex have a profile? Does terminator armor? How about Camo nets? These are all unusual grenades too right? All gear without a profile are grenades?.

I feel like this discussion has lost it's logical cohesion... Grenades without a profile are unusual grenades. An omnispex is not a grenade.
Goodbye.

Col.

No grenade has a melee profile. None. Grenades are used as a replacement for a shooting attack. None of the grenades listed in the grenades section have a MELEE profile. They have profiles attributed to them that they may use in place of making melee attacks which is the text above that you cut off in your quote.

If grenades had a melee profile they would grant an extra attack or be allowed to be selected as a melee weapon. Because they do not have the melee rule you cannot choose them. The unusual grenades rule allows you to choose them without having a profile, for melee, because that is the profile you are attempting to use.

You have highlighted in red what unusual grenades are but you cut off the above that determines in what manner unusual grenades are used. If you are not using them in that manner, which is above where you cut off, then they are not unusual grenades

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Just for the record of following this thread, Ceann has quoted several rules per the tenets to support his stance while basically everyone else has pulled a Col_ of only partially quoting rules and then repeating said excerpts of rules over and over.

Not a single person has given a plausible responses as to why they randomly use the Unusual Grenades rule without first meeting the qualifier. You are basically making a RAI assumption to classify Rad Grenades as Unusual in direct contradiction of the RAW.

The only counter with any legs is that once -1 T has been met, the rules have semantically been met.

Actually we have. That you have not liked them is what happened. In order to apply Unusual Grenades as you and Caenn have submitted you have to ignore that section was a breakout and apply it as part of the normal set of instructions.


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Ceann wrote:
Col.

No grenade has a melee profile. None. Grenades are used as a replacement for a shooting attack. None of the grenades listed in the grenades section have a MELEE profile. They have profiles attributed to them that they may use in place of making melee attacks which is the text above that you cut off in your quote.

If grenades had a melee profile they would grant an extra attack or be allowed to be selected as a melee weapon. Because they do not have the melee rule you cannot choose them. The unusual grenades rule allows you to choose them without having a profile, for melee, because that is the profile you are attempting to use.

You have highlighted in red what unusual grenades are but you cut off the above that determines in what manner unusual grenades are used. If you are not using them in that manner, which is above where you cut off, then they are not unusual grenades

To be fair, they do have profiles which have instructions to be used in Melee. In order to not consider them Melee profiles you would have to ignore the rules that precede the profile.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Ceann wrote:

Does an omnispex have a profile? Does terminator armor? How about Camo nets? These are all unusual grenades too right? All gear without a profile are grenades?.

I feel like this discussion has lost it's logical cohesion... Grenades without a profile are unusual grenades. An omnispex is not a grenade.
Goodbye.

And grenades that don't make a shooting or melee are actually grenades how? Other than by name. The requirement for unusual grenades is replacing a melee attack, the argument you were going to make isn't relevant because you ignored the criteria for unusual grenades.


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 Brother Ramses wrote:
You can Thunderwolf Mount to the list of wargear that modifies stats without it being a special rule.

The only person trying to actually see the point being made.

If wargear were special rules by default then an ap2 weapon could only kill a terminator if he rolled a 1, because being a special rule he would ignore ap2 as his save would be 2 plus no matter what. There are so many problems applying a blanket special rules to things not identified as special rules.

The effects not stacking is a attribute of a special rule. We are not told to ever check if a malus has already been applied we are just told to apply one. Two skitarii vanguard on the same unit would only be malus 1 because it is a special rule. This is the difference between the two.

Ceann wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Ceann wrote:

Does an omnispex have a profile? Does terminator armor? How about Camo nets? These are all unusual grenades too right? All gear without a profile are grenades?.

I feel like this discussion has lost it's logical cohesion... Grenades without a profile are unusual grenades. An omnispex is not a grenade.
Goodbye.

And grenades that don't make a shooting or melee are actually grenades how? Other than by name. The requirement for unusual grenades is replacing a melee attack, the argument you were going to make isn't relevant because you ignored the criteria for unusual grenades.

Why is the criterial for unusual grenades replacing a melee attack? It's said that unless specifically noted they don't get used in a melee attack (or are thrown). You don't make sense here.

Cienne may I make a suggestion we all know what you think you have made yourself clear.

we all agree that your wrong however there is nothing we can say to change your opinion and nothing you have not already said that will convince us

Would you allow the thread to continue under the assumption correctly or incorrectly that the grenades are a special rule and that they have a profile because the rules say they have a profile.

Because we cannot discuss the assumption with a wall of text side tracking us continually and you have not added anything constructive you did not add on pages 1 and 2 and this is going in circles which isn't helpfull

Ceann wrote:
Col.

No grenade has a melee profile. None. Grenades are used as a replacement for a shooting attack. None of the grenades listed in the grenades section have a MELEE profile. They have profiles attributed to them that they may use in place of making melee attacks which is the text above that you cut off in your quote.

If grenades had a melee profile they would grant an extra attack or be allowed to be selected as a melee weapon. Because they do not have the melee rule you cannot choose them. The unusual grenades rule allows you to choose them without having a profile, for melee, because that is the profile you are attempting to use.

You have highlighted in red what unusual grenades are but you cut off the above that determines in what manner unusual grenades are used. If you are not using them in that manner, which is above where you cut off, then they are not unusual grenades

Again with the misinformation. Here is more of the text to show that you are having trouble reading.




". . . As explained below" does not refer to the section on Unusual Grenades, rather it is referring to the ensuing discussion about 'different grenades' with 'different profiles' starting with Assault Grenades. Unusual Grenades do not have profiles and so cannot be the referent for 'as explained below'. Unusual grenades have their own breakout section because they are the exception to what has already been discussed. The breakout section is a self-contained definition.


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Ceann wrote:


The effects not stacking is a attribute of a special rule. We are not told to ever check if a malus has already been applied we are just told to apply one. Two skitarii vanguard on the same unit would only be malus 1 because it is a special rule. This is the difference between the two.

You have to PROVE that the effect stacks. The wording indicates that the effect DOES NOT stack.

The exact wording of the rule is this: 'During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase'

The rule is asking you if the enemy unit has been charged by a unit equipped with rad grenades. It doesn't care how many times it has been charged. Only that 'during a turn' it has been charged. Thus the modifier only applies once. It would need specific wording that tells you to apply it multiple times.

xlDuke wrote:
Perhaps the Unusual Grenades thing is a red herring. Per the wording of the rule all that matters is that a unit has charged or been charged by a unit with Rad Grenades. Whether that happens once or more doesn't seem to matter, you suffer a simple -1 Toughness regardless.

Like I said, the semantics argument is way stronger then the Special Rules/Unusual Grenades argument. However, I am trying to recall the effects of the rune priests runic staff and multiple staffs being within 24" and how those DIDN'T stack in stopping attacks versus the wording in the Rad Grenades.

Still not misinformation col.
When USED in this manner, as explained below.
In what manner?
The paragraph you didn't highlight... a grenade as a melee weapon.

Are we using a grenade in this manner? Yes or no?

If we do not use a grenade in that manner we don't need to have, as explained below, referenced. Being explained below is contingent upon, using it in this manner, which is a as a melee weapon.

Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No.
Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades.

I do not have to prove it stacks, page 8 permits wargear to modify stats, without restriction. Only special rules cannot stack and special rules section notate this. We have permission on page 8 to use modifiers.

A model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once here's the thing it isn't if they are separate units

Inquisitor 1 and 2 are in the same unit they benefit from the rule once the rule doesn't stack in this situation because it's if the unit charged or is charged

Inquisitor 1 and 2 are separate units charging the same unit

Inquisitor 1 charges 1's grenade has the rule it applies once and gives unit b -1t

Then Inquisitor 2 charges 2's grenade has the rule it applies once and gives unit b-1t

Unit b has -2t net

And rad grenades have not been proven to be a special rule. Much to the dismay of all involved.

Ceanne with the greatest respect if you have nothing constructive as in based on the assumption it is a special rule add nothing

Ceann wrote:

Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No.
Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades.

Again with the misinformation and inability to read plain text.



By definition Unusual Grenades have no profiles and CANNOT be used as a Melee weapon (unless specifically stated otherwise).

So a rad grenade is most assuredly an Unusual Grenade. It does not have a profile, only has a special rule, and cannot be used as a shooting or Melee Weapon. Rad grenade fits the definition of Unusual Grenade to a tee.


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Ceann wrote:


I do not have to prove it stacks, page 8 permits wargear to modify stats, without restriction. Only special rules cannot stack and special rules section notate this. We have permission on page 8 to use modifiers.

You do indeed have to prove it stacks. The wording of the effect does not stack. So how are you stacking except by your assumption that the effect somehow magically stacks?

The exact wording of the rule is this: 'During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase'

The rule is asking you if the enemy unit has been charged by a unit equipped with rad grenades. It doesn't care how many times it has been charged. Only that 'during a turn' it has been charged. Thus the modifier only applies once. It would need specific wording that tells you to apply it multiple times.

I have been asking for pages, what basic rule is being broken.

A special rule breaks basic rules. Therefore in order to be a special rule you need to be breaking a rule.

Skyfire breaks snapshooting at flyers.
Melta breaks the normal dice roll for vehicles.
Fearless breaks morale rules.
Relentless breaks heavy weapon type rules.
Fleet break movement rules.

This is a defining characteristic of a special rule.

Tell me the basic rule that rad grenades are breaking, that is all I want. And it is not modifying stats as wargear is permitted too on page 8 under modifers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lmao. You go straight to unusual grenades and now you cut off the entire paragraph above it that tells you what an unusual grenade IS. You are highlighting what a unusual grenade DOES. It first has to be one in order to follow the rules for it. It says THESE grenades. Which grenades? The ones explained below, that are used to replace melee attacks. Please stop cutting out words and then telling me I can't read, this is hilarious col, please provide all the relevant rules above the box that tell you the criteria to consult the box.

Ceann wrote:

Lmao. You go straight to unusual grenades and now you cut off the entire paragraph above it that tells you what an unusual grenade IS. You are highlighting what a unusual grenade DOES. It first has to be one in order to follow the rules for it. It says THESE grenades. Which grenades? The ones explained below, that are used to replace melee attacks. Please stop cutting out words and then telling me I can't ewad, this hilarious.

Again with your reading comprehension problems. This section has nothing to do with Unusual Grenades.

At work so cannot reference the entry, but at what point are you even told to reference the grenade rules in BRB? Going off of memory right now, but frag and krak tell you to reference the BRB on their rules. Pretty sure melta and haywire do as well. But I can't find anything telling me that I need to reference the rules for grenades in the BRB therefore making the attempt to classify them as Unusual Grenades with Special Rules a moot point as you are never told to reference the Grenade rules when using them.

However, after reviewing the wording of the old runic staff for rune priests and multiple rune priests only getting one 4+ to nullify, that argument is gaining more support from me in terms of not allowing them to stack.

But to any of the non-stacking crowd using the Unusual Grenades argument, are you told to reference the grenade rules in the BRB to resolve Rad Grenades and if not, why are you choosing to do so?

 Brother Ramses wrote:
At work so cannot reference the entry, but at what point are you even told to reference the grenade rules in BRB? Going off of memory right now, but frag and krak tell you to reference the BRB on their rules. Pretty sure melta and haywire do as well. But I can't find anything telling me that I need to reference the rules for grenades in the BRB therefore making the attempt to classify them as Unusual Grenades with Special Rules a moot point as you are never told to reference the Grenade rules when using them.

However, after reviewing the wording of the old runic staff for rune priests and multiple rune priests only getting one 4+ to nullify, that argument is gaining more support from me in terms of not allowing them to stack.


But to any of the non-stacking crowd using the Unusual Grenades argument, are you told to reference the grenade rules in the BRB to resolve Rad Grenades and if not, why are you choosing to do so?

I am not familiar with the item you are referencing. IF they have a special rule on the weapon, magical staff runes, or whatever it's called then they would not stack. In some cases some special rules do stack but specifically notate that they stack. Rad grenades do not have a special rule in their entry.


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col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

Lmao. You go straight to unusual grenades and now you cut off the entire paragraph above it that tells you what an unusual grenade IS. You are highlighting what a unusual grenade DOES. It first has to be one in order to follow the rules for it. It says THESE grenades. Which grenades? The ones explained below, that are used to replace melee attacks. Please stop cutting out words and then telling me I can't ewad, this hilarious.

Again with your reading comprehension problems. This section has nothing to do with Unusual Grenades.

Spoiler:

VEHICLES, GUN EMPLACEMENTS AND MONSTROUS CREATURES
Some grenades can be used against vehicles, gun emplacements (pg 109) and/or Monstrous Creatures (including Flying Monstrous Creatures in Gliding mode), but have to be clamped in place to maximise effect. All buildings are attacked in close combat as if they were vehicles and therefore any grenade that can be used to attack a vehicle in close combat can also be used against a building.

A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses. Different grenades have different profiles when used in this manner, as explained below.

This is the criteria to use an unusual grenade. It states you use a grenade as a melee weapon, which is what haywire and melta do. They have different profiles when used in this manner, the manner is as a melee weapon, AS EXPLAINED BELOW.
Directly below it is the unusual grenades box.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

If we are not using a grenade as a melee weapon, we are not using them in that manner, if we are not using them in that manner we do need to see what is explained below.

Choose another argument if you must but the unusual grenades holds no water.

Ceann wrote:I have been asking for pages, what basic rule is being broken.

A special rule breaks basic rules. Therefore in order to be a special rule you need to be breaking a rule.

Skyfire breaks snapshooting at flyers.
Melta breaks the normal dice roll for vehicles.
Fearless breaks morale rules.
Relentless breaks heavy weapon type rules.
Fleet break movement rules.

This is a defining characteristic of a special rule.

Tell me the basic rule that rad grenades are breaking, that is all I want. And it is not modifying stats as wargear is permitted too on page 8 under modifers.

No, page 8 is not establishing the rules for Wargear, just noting that it sometimes happens. It is using the occasion of some of them doing so to set the basic rules for Modifiers. It is an introduction, not a ruling for Wargear.

If it was a ruling for Wargear, the sub-section would be called "Wargear". In addition, just because something can do something doesn't mean it isn't breaking or bending rules to do so, especially to your enemy's units.

Not that you'll accept this, you are very stuck on this definition.

Ceann wrote:Lmao. You go straight to unusual grenades and now you cut off the entire paragraph above it that tells you what an unusual grenade IS. You are highlighting what a unusual grenade DOES. It first has to be one in order to follow the rules for it. It says THESE grenades. Which grenades? The ones explained below, that are used to replace melee attacks. Please stop cutting out words and then telling me I can't read, this is hilarious col, please provide all the relevant rules above the box that tell you the criteria to consult the box.

The criteria to consult the box is listed in the box. Since it is a break-out box it is not always being referred to by the previous paragraphs. If it was being referenced by the previous paragraphs it would state, "Different grenades have different profiles when used in this manner, [b]as explained in the Unusual Grenades box below." The previous paragraph does not state this, so it is not referring to anything in the Unusual Grenades break-out box. You are taking a literary leap by applying that sentence to the unreferenced break-out box.

Brother Ramses wrote:At work so cannot reference the entry, but at what point are you even told to reference the grenade rules in BRB? Going off of memory right now, but frag and krak tell you to reference the BRB on their rules. Pretty sure melta and haywire do as well. But I can't find anything telling me that I need to reference the rules for grenades in the BRB therefore making the attempt to classify them as Unusual Grenades with Special Rules a moot point as you are never told to reference the Grenade rules when using them.
...
But to any of the non-stacking crowd using the Unusual Grenades argument, are you told to reference the grenade rules in the BRB to resolve Rad Grenades and if not, why are you choosing to do so?

Actually Krak Grenades are part of the BRB, but Frag Grenades are told to reference Assault Grenades.

Here's a question for you, if you see an item called Grenades, where do you look in the rulebook to handle them? When you see a section called Grenades, would you not start there? If the Index points you to using the Grenades section, would you not start there?

So a better question would be, why would you not go to the Grenades section when a Wargear is called Grenades?

 Charistoph wrote:

Here's a question for you, if you see an item called Grenades, where do you look in the rulebook to handle them? When you see a section called Grenades, would you not start there? If the Index points you to using the Grenades section, would you not start there?

So a better question would be, why would you not go to the Grenades section when a Wargear is called Grenades?

Why would you not treat assault cannons as assault weapons, or heavy flamers as heavy weapons.

Meltabombs doesn't have grenade in the name, yet is under the grenade section.

Gauss blaster doesn't use a blast template.

You can't use the just the name for application of rules, you have to look at the whole wargear entry.

For the same reason that I do not go to the BRB for a Thunderwolf mount section; you resolve it per the wargear entry.

But just so we are clear, you are assuming that you go to the BRB section on Grenades without any direction whatsoever in the wargear entry for Rad Grenades to do so?

"Different grenades have different profiles when used in this manner, as explained in the Unusual Grenades box below."

Please then Charistoph, tell us what MANNER the above quote you provided is referencing? What manner are they being used in? Are we using them as a vehicle perhaps? I hope the manner is a transport it would be interesting to ride inside of a grenade. If as you stated the previous text has nothing to do with the statement, this is the situation we would be in, assuming or guessing the manner.

So....

Would the manner be... AS A MELEE WEAPON? I imagine so since the text you left out in a Col_ like fashion states what the manner is.

No, I see an item called "Rad Grenades"

Does it make a shooting attack? No.
Does it make a melee attack? No.
Does it tell me to consult the BRB? No.

As i mentioned 1000x already, it is just as much a grenade as an omnispex or terminator armor. "Rad Grenades" are not a weapon. You even said this yourself previously and I can quote it if you like.
If they are not a weapon how are you using the weapon rules of the BRB for an item that happens to have the word Grenades in the name?

I have repeatedly refuted this inane "unusual grenade" argument but everyone keeps coming back to it because they are for some strange reason unable to differentiate wargear from a weapon.

And as I have asked another 1000x...

TELL ME THE RULE, WHICH PAGE, is being BROKEN, by rad grenades.

As for the other nonsense about it not stacking.

A unit has 4 toughness.
I assault the unit.
The unit now has 3 toughness.
I assault the unit, the unit now has 2 toughness.

Each time you assault the unit the number goes down, it doesn't ask if the effect already happened, it doesn't say to not apply it if the unit already has a malus.
The only way this idea that it can't apply yet would be if it was a PENDING effect waiting to be applied and then another effect was also placed into this PENDING state and saw a copy of itself.
As there is no actual pending rule in the BRB and modifers are applied immediately as the requisite action is taken, there is no effect to moderate how many times the effect has been applied, the limit is actually placed on the fact that a given unit is only assaulting once.

Another thread that is unreadable due to people hammering each over the head with their definition of the rulebook.

HANZERtank wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Here's a question for you, if you see an item called Grenades, where do you look in the rulebook to handle them? When you see a section called Grenades, would you not start there? If the Index points you to using the Grenades section, would you not start there?

So a better question would be, why would you not go to the Grenades section when a Wargear is called Grenades?

Why would you not treat assault cannons as assault weapons, or heavy flamers as heavy weapons.

Meltabombs doesn't have grenade in the name, yet is under the grenade section.

Gauss blaster doesn't use a blast template.

You can't use the just the name for application of rules, you have to look at the whole wargear entry.

Brother Ramses wrote:For the same reason that I do not go to the BRB for a Thunderwolf mount section; you resolve it per the wargear entry.

But just so we are clear, you are assuming that you go to the BRB section on Grenades without any direction whatsoever in the wargear entry for Rad Grenades to do so?

There is no section for Assault Weapons or Heavy Weapons. There is a section for Grenades. The Wargear is called Grenades. Do the rules that cover that also apply here?

So, if Wargear is not Grenades (and it would state otherwise if it was, ala the Assault Cannon having the Heavy Type), then it would still be using a special rule to do its thing.

Ceann wrote:"Different grenades have different profiles when used in this manner, as explained in the Unusual Grenades box below."

Please then Charistoph, tell us what MANNER the above quote you provided is referencing? What manner are they being used in? If as you stated the previous text has nothing to do with the statement.

Would the manner be... AS A MELEE WEAPON?

No I see an item called "Rad Grenades"

Does it make a shooting attack? No.
Does it make a melee attack? No.

As i mentioned 1000x already, it is just as much a grenade as an omnispex or terminator armor. "Rad Grenades" are not a weapon. You even said this yourself previously and I can quote it if you like.
If they are not a weapon how are you using the weapon rules of the BRB for an item that happens to have the word Grenades in the name?

I have repeatedly refuted this inane "unusual grenade" argument but everyone keeps coming back to it because they are for some strange reason unable to differentiate wargear from a weapon.

The above quote does not exist, though. The quote it replaces is referencing the rest of paragraphs following that starts with Assault Grenades. And when we get to Haywire and Krak Grenades we start seeing Profiles to be used in Melee under their "Assault" heading.

Rad Grenades do not have a profile, instead, as stated under Unusual Grenades, "Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects that they have will be covered in their special rules. Unless specifically stated otherwise, these grenades cannot be thrown or used as a Melee weapon."

So, you cannot throw or use the Rad Grenades as a Melee Weapon.

Ceann wrote:And as I have asked another 1000x...

TELL ME THE RULE, WHICH PAGE, is being BROKEN, by rad grenades.

Modifying a Characteristic. Show me where all Wargear modify stats? You haven't answered that at any point it's been put back at you.

Why is this page 8 section defining Wargear and not defining Modifiers? Why is it setting the rules for Wargear instead of just noting that it is when it usually happens?

Ceann wrote:As for the other nonsense about it not stacking.

A unit has 4 toughness.
I assault the unit.
The unit now has 3 toughness.
I assault the unit, the unit now has 2 toughness.

Each time you assault the unit the number goes down, it doesn't ask if the effect already happened, it doesn't say to not apply it if the unit already has a malus.
The only way this idea that it can't apply yet would be if it was a PENDING effect waiting to be applied and then another effect was also placed into this PENDING state and saw a copy of itself.
As there is no actual pending rule in the BRB and modifers are applied immediately as the requisite action is taken, there is no effect to moderate how many times the effect has been applied, the limit is actually placed on the fact that a given unit is only assaulting once.

Because it is a Special Rule, it does not stack. Because it states it only happens in the Turn you Charge, you cannot Charge again and have it stack. Any concept of "pending" is your own creation.

 Charistoph wrote:

HANZERtank wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Here's a question for you, if you see an item called Grenades, where do you look in the rulebook to handle them? When you see a section called Grenades, would you not start there? If the Index points you to using the Grenades section, would you not start there?

So a better question would be, why would you not go to the Grenades section when a Wargear is called Grenades?

Why would you not treat assault cannons as assault weapons, or heavy flamers as heavy weapons.

Meltabombs doesn't have grenade in the name, yet is under the grenade section.

Gauss blaster doesn't use a blast template.

You can't use the just the name for application of rules, you have to look at the whole wargear entry.

Brother Ramses wrote:For the same reason that I do not go to the BRB for a Thunderwolf mount section; you resolve it per the wargear entry.

But just so we are clear, you are assuming that you go to the BRB section on Grenades without any direction whatsoever in the wargear entry for Rad Grenades to do so?

There is no section for Assault Weapons or Heavy Weapons. There is a section for Grenades. The Wargear is called Grenades. Do the rules that cover that also apply here?

So, if Wargear is not Grenades (and it would state otherwise if it was, ala the Assault Cannon having the Heavy Type), then it would still be using a special rule to do its thing.

Ceann wrote:"Different grenades have different profiles when used in this manner, as explained in the Unusual Grenades box below."

Please then Charistoph, tell us what MANNER the above quote you provided is referencing? What manner are they being used in? If as you stated the previous text has nothing to do with the statement.

Would the manner be... AS A MELEE WEAPON?

The above quote does not exist, though. The quote it replaces is referencing the rest of paragraphs following that starts with Assault Grenades. And when we get to Haywire and Krak Grenades we start seeing Profiles to be used in Melee under their "Assault" heading.

Are you serious sir? Are you going "you know who" also?

Page 180

"A model can use SUCH A GRENADE as a MELEE WEAPON."
SUCH = A grenade being used against a vehicle, MC or emplacement as notated in the section above titled Vehicles, Gun Enplacements and MC's located IN THE GRENADES SECTION of the rules.
MELEE WEAPON = A MELEE WEAPON, the things we used in CC.
"but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of attacks on its profile or any bonuses.
"Different grenades have different takes when used in this manner, as explained below"

IN WHAT MANNER. AS A MELEE WEAPON, PAGE 180 in the GRENADE RULES.
What is explained below?
UNUSUAL GRENADES.
How do we know if we have an unusual grenade?
Because we are using it as a MELEE WEAPON, which is the manner described above where it told us it was explained below.

The above quote clearly existed.