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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/17 23:54:47
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ceann wrote:
This is the criteria to use an unusual grenade. It states you use a grenade as a melee weapon, which is what haywire and melta do. They have different profiles when used in this manner, the manner is as a melee weapon, AS EXPLAINED BELOW.
Directly below it is the unusual grenades box.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
If we are not using a grenade as a melee weapon, we are not using them in that manner, if we are not using them in that manner we do need to see what is explained below.
Choose another argument if you must but the unusual grenades holds no water.
This section has absolutely nothing to do with Unusual Grenades. It is dealing with just grenades (ie the usual grenades with profiles)
The text for Assault, Plasma, Defensive, Haywire, Krak, and Melta Bomb grenadse are what is 'explained below'. Unusual Grenades are discussed in an entirely separate breakout section, as an exception to what has been discussed prior. We know this because Unusual Grenades do not have profiles and so cannot be the referent for "different grenades have different profiles when used in this manner, as explained below."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/17 23:57:38
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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Charistoph wrote:HANZERtank wrote: Charistoph wrote:
Here's a question for you, if you see an item called Grenades, where do you look in the rulebook to handle them? When you see a section called Grenades, would you not start there? If the Index points you to using the Grenades section, would you not start there?
So a better question would be, why would you not go to the Grenades section when a Wargear is called Grenades?
Why would you not treat assault cannons as assault weapons, or heavy flamers as heavy weapons.
Meltabombs doesn't have grenade in the name, yet is under the grenade section.
Gauss blaster doesn't use a blast template.
You can't use the just the name for application of rules, you have to look at the whole wargear entry.
Brother Ramses wrote:For the same reason that I do not go to the BRB for a Thunderwolf mount section; you resolve it per the wargear entry.
But just so we are clear, you are assuming that you go to the BRB section on Grenades without any direction whatsoever in the wargear entry for Rad Grenades to do so?
There is no section for Assault Weapons or Heavy Weapons. There is a section for Grenades. The Wargear is called Grenades. Do the rules that cover that also apply here?
So, if Wargear is not Grenades (and it would state otherwise if it was, ala the Assault Cannon having the Heavy Type), then it would still be using a special rule to do its thing.
Ceann wrote:"Different grenades have different profiles when used in this manner, as explained in the Unusual Grenades box below."
Please then Charistoph, tell us what MANNER the above quote you provided is referencing? What manner are they being used in? If as you stated the previous text has nothing to do with the statement.
Would the manner be... AS A MELEE WEAPON?
No I see an item called "Rad Grenades"
Does it make a shooting attack? No.
Does it make a melee attack? No.
As i mentioned 1000x already, it is just as much a grenade as an omnispex or terminator armor. "Rad Grenades" are not a weapon. You even said this yourself previously and I can quote it if you like.
If they are not a weapon how are you using the weapon rules of the BRB for an item that happens to have the word Grenades in the name?
I have repeatedly refuted this inane "unusual grenade" argument but everyone keeps coming back to it because they are for some strange reason unable to differentiate wargear from a weapon.
The above quote does not exist, though. The quote it replaces is referencing the rest of paragraphs following that starts with Assault Grenades. And when we get to Haywire and Krak Grenades we start seeing Profiles to be used in Melee under their "Assault" heading.
Rad Grenades do not have a profile, instead, as stated under Unusual Grenades, " Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects that they have will be covered in their special rules. Unless specifically stated otherwise, these grenades cannot be thrown or used as a Melee weapon."
So, you cannot throw or use the Rad Grenades as a Melee Weapon.
Ceann wrote:And as I have asked another 1000x...
TELL ME THE RULE, WHICH PAGE, is being BROKEN, by rad grenades.
Modifying a Characteristic. Show me where all Wargear modify stats? You haven't answered that at any point it's been put back at you.
Why is this page 8 section defining Wargear and not defining Modifiers? Why is it setting the rules for Wargear instead of just noting that it is when it usually happens?
Ceann wrote:As for the other nonsense about it not stacking.
A unit has 4 toughness.
I assault the unit.
The unit now has 3 toughness.
I assault the unit, the unit now has 2 toughness.
Each time you assault the unit the number goes down, it doesn't ask if the effect already happened, it doesn't say to not apply it if the unit already has a malus.
The only way this idea that it can't apply yet would be if it was a PENDING effect waiting to be applied and then another effect was also placed into this PENDING state and saw a copy of itself.
As there is no actual pending rule in the BRB and modifers are applied immediately as the requisite action is taken, there is no effect to moderate how many times the effect has been applied, the limit is actually placed on the fact that a given unit is only assaulting once.
Because it is a Special Rule, it does not stack. Because it states it only happens in the Turn you Charge, you cannot Charge again and have it stack. Any concept of "pending" is your own creation.
Nothing tells you to reference the rules for Grenades in the BRB in the Rad Grenades so therefore you do not. You are pigeon-holing it based on a naming convention aka fluff aka RAI with absolutely no RAW telling you to do so. As was pointed out, other Grenades are specific in telling you to reference the grenade rules in the BRB and said rules are written as such. However lacking no explicit direction to reference the grenade rules in the BRB, your stance that you do and in turn the subsequent stance on Unusual Grenades is pure RAI with no basis in RAW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:03:45
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Brother Ramses wrote:
Nothing tells you to reference the rules for Grenades in the BRB in the Rad Grenades so therefore you do not. You are pigeon-holing it based on a naming convention aka fluff aka RAI with absolutely no RAW telling you to do so. As was pointed out, other Grenades are specific in telling you to reference the grenade rules in the BRB and said rules are written as such. However lacking no explicit direction to reference the grenade rules in the BRB, your stance that you do and in turn the subsequent stance on Unusual Grenades is pure RAI with no basis in RAW.
Except that grenade is an indexed keyword in the BRB, just like 'turn' or 'movement' or 'shooting sequence'. When the word 'grenade' is used in a codex, the BRB index automatically applies unless proven otherwise. The burden of proof is on you to prove that a rad grenade is not a grenade.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:04:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:06:28
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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You know what Col, I was trying to help people understand special rules and basic rules but I need to remove you from this "unusual grenades" argument because you have already laser focused on the exact words in that box and will repeat them as an endless mantra until the end of time because you feel you are correct.
Are Grenades located in the special rules section of the BRB?
No. They are located in the weapons section.
Page 156 BRB under "A compendium of special rules"
We've presented them ALL in a single section to make your life easier to track down an effect of a particular special rule."
This tells us that ALL special rules located in the BRB, are notated in the BRB "Special Rules" section. Anything not located in the BRB section "Special Rules" is not a special rule.
Unusual grenades are not located in the special rules section they are located in the Weapons section.
The advanced rules tell us that a codex supersedes the rules of the BRB. Because Rad Grenades does not tell us to consult the BRB, Rad Grenades do not have to adhere to the weapon rules of the basic weapon rules in the weapons section. They are therefore not unusual grenades.
Page 13 BRB. "Basic versus advanced"
On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book and, one printed in a codex. Where this occurs's the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry ALWAYS takes precedence.
Are we done with unusual grenades now?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:11:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:11:33
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ceann wrote:You know what Col, I was trying to help people understand special rules and basic rules but I need to remove you from this "unusual grenades" argument because you have already laser focused on the exact words in that box and will repeat them as an endless mantra until the end of time because you feel you are correct.
Are Grenades located in the special rules section of the BRB?
No. They are located in the weapons section.
Page 156 BRB under "A compendium of special rules"
We've presented them ALL in a single section to make your life easier to track down an effect of a particular special rule."
This tells us that ALL special rules located in the BRB, are notated in the BRB "Special Rules" section. Anything not located in the BRB section "Special Rules" is not a special rule.
Unusual grenades are not located in the special rules section they are located in the Weapons section.
The advanced rules tell us that a codex supersedes the rules of the BRB. Because Rad Grenades does not tell us to consult the BRB Rad Grenades do not have to adhere to the weapon rules of the basic weapon rules in the weapons section. They are therefore not unusual grenades.
Page 13 BRB. "Basic versus advanced"
On rare occasions. a conflict will arise between a rule in this book and, one printed in a codex. Where this occurs's the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry ALWAYS takes precedence.
Are we done with unusual grenades now?
Grenade is an indexed keyword in the BRB, just like 'turn' or 'movement' or 'shooting sequence' or 'weapon'. When the word 'grenade' is used in a codex, the BRB index automatically applies unless proven otherwise. The burden of proof is on you to prove that a rad grenade is not a grenade.
When a codex says 'Weapon' does that carry the indexed term 'Weapon' or not? Same thing with 'Grenade'. The word is an indexed word and so carries the BRB definition unless specifically stated otherwise.
Otherwise you are in the awkward position that weapons in the Codex are not functional weapons in the game.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:15:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:15:22
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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This is incorrect. A codex will have a section at the front of the armory listing the weapons not in the codex and referencing you to the 40k BRB for the rules for those weapons.
It has the same section for each type of wargear present in the codex that is directly from the BRB and references directly back to the BRB. If a reference does not exist then it does not reference the BRB.
The special rules laws, in particular on page 13 supersede the weapons section "unusual grenades".
"""""When the word 'grenade' is used in a codex, the BRB index automatically applies unless proven otherwise. """"
You claimed the above statement, please tell us what page this rule resides on.
I am not in an awkward position.
Are Grenades located in the special rules section of the BRB?
No. They are located in the weapons section.
Page 156 BRB under "A compendium of special rules"
We've presented them ALL in a single section to make your life easier to track down an effect of a particular special rule."
This tells us that ALL special rules located in the BRB, are notated in the BRB "Special Rules" section. Anything not located in the BRB section "Special Rules" is not a special rule.
Unusual grenades are not located in the special rules section they are located in the Weapons section.
The advanced rules tell us that a codex supersedes the rules of the BRB. Because Rad Grenades does not tell us to consult the BRB Rad Grenades do not have to adhere to the weapon rules of the basic weapon rules in the weapons section. They are therefore not unusual grenades.
Page 13 BRB. "Basic versus advanced"
On rare occasions. a conflict will arise between a rule in this book and, one printed in a codex. Where this occurs's the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry ALWAYS takes precedence.
Are we done with unusual grenades now?
Please provide the exact page number that states this or the comment means nothing.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:18:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:19:42
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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col_impact wrote: Brother Ramses wrote:
Nothing tells you to reference the rules for Grenades in the BRB in the Rad Grenades so therefore you do not. You are pigeon-holing it based on a naming convention aka fluff aka RAI with absolutely no RAW telling you to do so. As was pointed out, other Grenades are specific in telling you to reference the grenade rules in the BRB and said rules are written as such. However lacking no explicit direction to reference the grenade rules in the BRB, your stance that you do and in turn the subsequent stance on Unusual Grenades is pure RAI with no basis in RAW.
Except that grenade is an indexed keyword in the BRB, just like 'turn' or 'movement' or 'shooting sequence'. When the word 'grenade' is used in a codex, the BRB index automatically applies unless proven otherwise. The burden of proof is on you to prove that a rad grenade is not a grenade.
The Shunt made by GK uses movement and moving in it's description which I am sure that movement and move are indexed in the BRB. However, it was ruled as a Shunt, not movement per the BRB definition of movement. Even though the model physically moved, it was not moving, it was shunting.
As far as burden of proof, I need to only point to the wargear entry that does not tell me to reference the BRB section on Grenades. I can resolve the Rad Grenades per wargear entry as it is written, aka RAW. You make the assumption that because "grenade" is part of the name, that it must then follow the rules in the BRB for grenade, despite have absolutely zero direction to do so aka RAI.
Abandon this stance, the semantics of the wording is much stronger in denying stacking rad grenades. This path is just bashing your face into the RAW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:20:35
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ceann wrote:This is incorrect. A codex will have a section at the front of the armory listing the weapons not in the codex and referencing you to the 40k BRB for the rules for those weapons.
The special rules laws, in particular on page 13 supersede the weapons section "unusual grenades".
"When the word 'grenade' is used in a codex, the BRB index automatically applies unless proven otherwise. "
I am not in an awkward position.
Are Grenades located in the special rules section of the BRB?
No. They are located in the weapons section.
Page 156 BRB under "A compendium of special rules"
We've presented them ALL in a single section to make your life easier to track down an effect of a particular special rule."
This tells us that ALL special rules located in the BRB, are notated in the BRB "Special Rules" section. Anything not located in the BRB section "Special Rules" is not a special rule.
Unusual grenades are not located in the special rules section they are located in the Weapons section.
The advanced rules tell us that a codex supersedes the rules of the BRB. Because Rad Grenades does not tell us to consult the BRB Rad Grenades do not have to adhere to the weapon rules of the basic weapon rules in the weapons section. They are therefore not unusual grenades.
Page 13 BRB. "Basic versus advanced"
On rare occasions. a conflict will arise between a rule in this book and, one printed in a codex. Where this occurs's the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry ALWAYS takes precedence.
Are we done with unusual grenades now?
Please provide the exact page number that states this or the comment means nothing.
Does the Imperial Agent codex explicitly refer you to use the BRB definition of 'weapons'? If not, then how are you using the 'weapons' in the codex as functioning 40k 'weapons'? If you want to, feel free to treat all weapons in the Imperial Agent codex as a weapon only by fluff and not by 40k defintion.
The BRB designates 'weapon', 'turn', and 'grenade' as indexed keywords. The definitions apply when the word is used unless specifically stated or proven otherwise.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Ramses wrote:
The Shunt made by GK uses movement and moving in it's description which I am sure that movement and move are indexed in the BRB. However, it was ruled as a Shunt, not movement per the BRB definition of movement. Even though the model physically moved, it was not moving, it was shunting.
As far as burden of proof, I need to only point to the wargear entry that does not tell me to reference the BRB section on Grenades. I can resolve the Rad Grenades per wargear entry as it is written, aka RAW. You make the assumption that because "grenade" is part of the name, that it must then follow the rules in the BRB for grenade, despite have absolutely zero direction to do so aka RAI.
Abandon this stance, the semantics of the wording is much stronger in denying stacking rad grenades. This path is just bashing your face into the RAW.
Grenade is an indexed key word. So long as the codex is 40k, the BRB indexed definitions apply. You have to prove that they do not apply.
Otherwise you are saying that anytime an indexed word is used in a codex that it has to explicitly refer to the BRB. That is a huge can of worms to open. All codices would be rendered instantly useless since indexed keywords are used throughout a codex with only the rarest exception including an explicit reference.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:26:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:25:38
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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You are completely ignoring the RAW, period. The wargear entry for rad grenades resolves itself completely and never tells you to reference the BRB grenade section to resolve them. You have zero RAW standing in this and are now completely inventing "proof" that does not exist. .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:26:50
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Brother Ramses wrote:You are completely ignoring the RAW, period. The wargear entry for rad grenades resolves itself completely and never tells you to reference the BRB grenade section to resolve them. You have zero RAW standing in this and are now completely inventing "proof" that does not exist. .
Are grenades in the BRB index or not?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:28:18
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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No Col.
Page 13 BRB. "Basic versus advanced"
On rare occasions. a conflict will arise between a rule in this book and, one printed in a codex. Where this occurs's the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry ALWAYS takes precedence.
That is called the codex "I win" button.
The wargear rules for the Codex: Imperial Agents take precedence for rad grenades.
Any words you have from the BRB mean nothing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:29:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:29:21
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ceann wrote:No Col.
Page 13 BRB. "Basic versus advanced"
On rare occasions. a conflict will arise between a rule in this book and, one printed in a codex. Where this occurs's the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry ALWAYS takes precedence.
That is called the codex "I win" button.
There is no conflict.
Are grenades in the BRB index or not?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:30:02
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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col_impact wrote: Brother Ramses wrote:You are completely ignoring the RAW, period. The wargear entry for rad grenades resolves itself completely and never tells you to reference the BRB grenade section to resolve them. You have zero RAW standing in this and are now completely inventing "proof" that does not exist. .
Are grenades in the BRB index or not?
Yup.
Does the wargear entry for Rad Grenades tell you reference that section? Nope. That is pure RAW of the wargear entry with no assumption of the naming convention somehow directing me to said section.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:30:54
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ceann wrote:
The wargear rules for the Codex: Imperial Agents take precedence for rad grenades.
Any words you have from the BRB mean nothing.
Does Imperial Agents mention 'weapons' or 'shooting' or 'phase' or 'turn'? Where do we get the definitions for those terms? Automatically Appended Next Post: Brother Ramses wrote:col_impact wrote: Brother Ramses wrote:You are completely ignoring the RAW, period. The wargear entry for rad grenades resolves itself completely and never tells you to reference the BRB grenade section to resolve them. You have zero RAW standing in this and are now completely inventing "proof" that does not exist. .
Are grenades in the BRB index or not?
Yup.
Does the wargear entry for Rad Grenades tell you reference that section? Nope. That is pure RAW of the wargear entry with no assumption of the naming convention somehow directing me to said section.
Does Imperial Agents mention 'weapons' or 'shooting' or 'phase' or 'turn'? Where do we get the definitions for those terms?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:31:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:31:27
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Do Rad Grenades state... see grenades in 40k BRB? Nope.
Codex wins.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:32:20
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ceann wrote:Do Rad Grenades state... see grenades in 40k BRB? Nope.
Codex wins.
Does Imperial Agents mention 'weapons' or 'shooting' or 'phase' or 'turn'? Where do we get the definitions for those terms?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:32:52
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Oh this is wonderful Col, just wonderful.
You see the Basic vs Advanced also tell us to use the rules of the DATA SHEET for the units and tells us those basic rules you mention apply to all units the game, and the data sheets for the units list the unit types, which define ALL the basic rules for those units. Wonderful wonderful day Col.
Do you have anything else or can we talk about the rad grenades themselves now instead of all these silly side arguments?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:35:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:37:07
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ceann wrote:Oh this is wonderful Col, just wonderful.
You see the Basic vs Advanced also tell us to use the rules of the DATA SHEET for the units, and the data sheets for the units list the unit types, which define ALL the basic rules for those units. Wonderful wonderful day Col.
Do you have anything else or can we talk about the rad grenades themselves now instead of all these silly side arguments?
That includes the definition for grenades which applies whenever the term is used. Are we done here?
You need to prove that Rad Grenades are not Grenades.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:37:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:38:34
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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That includes the definition for grenades which applies whenever the term is used. Are we done here?
Are these words in the Special Rules section of the brb?
No?
Codex wins. Please submit more words.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:40:38
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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Amazing that in the very face of pure RAW, col-impact will still attempt to apply a RAI assumption and fully commit said false premise to being RAW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:40:56
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ceann wrote:That includes the definition for grenades which applies whenever the term is used. Are we done here?
Are these words in the Special Rules section of the brb?
No?
Codex wins. Please submit more words.
Grenades is an indexed keyword in the BRB. The index applies unless you can prove otherwise. Similarly, the BRB definition of 'weapon' is in play when you read about a codex 'weapon'. Otherwise, codex 'weapons' will not function as 40k 'weapons'. Automatically Appended Next Post: Brother Ramses wrote:Amazing that in the very face of pure RAW, col-impact will still attempt to apply a RAI assumption and fully commit said false premise to being RAW.
Grenades is an indexed keyword with a 40k recognized definition so it is RAW to apply it to an occurrence of the term in a Codex.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:42:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:43:49
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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Let me guess col_impact, in the Wolves codex, you refer to the BRB for frost claws on how to use them since "claws" is in the BRB?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:45:57
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Brother Ramses wrote:Let me guess col_impact, in the Wolves codex, you refer to the BRB for frost claws on how to use them since "claws" is in the BRB?
Is 'claws' an indexed keyword? Nope.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:47:04
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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col_impact wrote:Ceann wrote:That includes the definition for grenades which applies whenever the term is used. Are we done here?
Are these words in the Special Rules section of the brb?
No?
Codex wins. Please submit more words.
Grenades is an indexed keyword in the BRB. The index applies unless you can prove otherwise. Similarly, the BRB definition of 'weapon' is in play when you read about a codex 'weapon'. Otherwise, codex 'weapons' will not function as 40k 'weapons'.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Ramses wrote:Amazing that in the very face of pure RAW, col-impact will still attempt to apply a RAI assumption and fully commit said false premise to being RAW.
Grenades is an indexed keyword with a 40k recognized definition so it is RAW to apply it to an occurrence of the term in a Codex.
Look everyone, it is the same col_impact tactic from the RG relic and terminator/bike thread! Repeat his LIE enough times for him to believe it. And I am saying LIE because you have zero standing at all to make the premise that you have and the RAW is clear cut as can possibly be. You are propagating a lie and are going to repeat it over and over on the premise that it is true without a single written rule to backup your stance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:49:08
Subject: Re:Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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EMPYREAN BRAIN MINES
Empyrean brain mines are used at the start of the Fight sub-phase. Nominate one enemy model in base contact with the bearer. That model must pass an Initiative test to avoid the brain mine. If the test is passed, the effects of the brain mine have been resisted. If the test is failed, the victim has been rendered momentarily catatonic and cannot strike any blows during this sub-phase.
So here we are in the codex.
What's the 'Fight sub-phase'?
What's a 'model'.
What's an 'Initiative test'?
There aren't any page references to the BRB so according to Ceann and Brother Ramses those are meaningless words with no impact on anything. Looks like Empyrean Brain Mines do absolutely nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Ramses wrote:
Look everyone, it is the same col_impact tactic from the RG relic and terminator/bike thread! Repeat his LIE enough times for him to believe it. And I am saying LIE because you have zero standing at all to make the premise that you have and the RAW is clear cut as can possibly be. You are propagating a lie and are going to repeat it over and over on the premise that it is true without a single written rule to backup your stance.
What lie? That 'grenades' is an indexed keyword? Are you able to open up your BRB and read it? You can confirm that 'grenades' is an indexed keyword all by yourself.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:52:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:52:16
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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The wargear entry tells you how to resolve the brain mines, just like the rad grenades.
Nominate is probably not indexed is it? I am sure "are" and "used" isn't either. But hey, keep flying in the face of clear cut RAW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:54:30
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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So does anyone have a real argument to make?
I am not going to entertain Col on his face first plunge into never admitting he is wrong.
"During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades
launches an assault, or is assaulted the enemy unit(s)
suffer a -1 penalty to their toughness until the end of phase"
The question here seems to be whether or not the "penalty" is somehow lingering to verify if it has already been applied or not or if it is applied immediately.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:54:46
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Brother Ramses wrote:The wargear entry tells you how to resolve the brain mines, just like the rad grenades.
Nominate is probably not indexed is it? I am sure "are" and "used" isn't either. But hey, keep flying in the face of clear cut RAW.
English applies in the absence of 40k defined words. 'Grenades' is a 40k defined word.
What's a 'Fight sub-phase'? The Codex isn't providing that definition. Where do I get this information??
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:57:40
Subject: Re:Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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col_impact wrote:EMPYREAN BRAIN MINES
Empyrean brain mines are used at the start of the Fight sub-phase. Nominate one enemy model in base contact with the bearer. That model must pass an Initiative test to avoid the brain mine. If the test is passed, the effects of the brain mine have been resisted. If the test is failed, the victim has been rendered momentarily catatonic and cannot strike any blows during this sub-phase.
So here we are in the codex.
What's the 'Fight sub-phase'?
What's a 'model'.
What's an 'Initiative test'?
There aren't any page references to the BRB so according to Ceann and Brother Ramses those are meaningless words with no impact on anything. Looks like Empyrean Brain Mines do absolutely nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Ramses wrote:
Look everyone, it is the same col_impact tactic from the RG relic and terminator/bike thread! Repeat his LIE enough times for him to believe it. And I am saying LIE because you have zero standing at all to make the premise that you have and the RAW is clear cut as can possibly be. You are propagating a lie and are going to repeat it over and over on the premise that it is true without a single written rule to backup your stance.
What lie? That 'grenades' is an indexed keyword? Are you able to open up your BRB and read it? You can confirm that 'grenades' is an indexed keyword all by yourself.
Are you told to reference the rules for grenades in the wargear entry for Rad Grenades or are you assuming that you reference the rules for Rad Grenades because "grenades" is in the name? If you are choosing the latter, cite your rules reference that tells you to use a naming convention and index to refer to the grenades section of the BRB. Remember, you need explicit permission, not assumption to reference the rules for grenades in the BRB. Until you can do that, your premise is based on a lie that you have created on a whim to support your argument.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/18 00:58:54
Subject: Imperial Agents Rad Grenades
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Dear dear col.
Is the codex providing a conflict for those? I don't see any of those words in the codex, you are right sir.
Good thing there is no conflict. Per the rules of the BRB we will follow the basic rules of the BRB because their is no conflict with those words where the codex takes precedence.
Page 13 BRB. Basic vs advanced.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 01:00:19
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