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The Unusual Grenades reference is a dead argument because the wargear entry for Rad Grenades does not direct you Unusual Grenades or the Grenades section of the BRB at all on how to employ them. You follow the RAW of the wargear entry period.

The only real question is whether or not they stack which two of us have started to actually discuss in terms of multiple units having Rad Grenades assaulting or being assaulted versus a unit with multiple models having Rad Grenades.

Brother Ramses wrote:No, you asked me for a non-BRB grenade that refers you to the BRB. I gave you Blight, a non-BRB grenade that refers you to the BRB. You say it is like Frag which it isn't since Frag is specififally called out to check the BRB with an asterisk to be treated as Assault. But by all means, show me the Blight Grenades in the BRB. By all means show me the profiles for Blight Grenades in the Chaos Codex.

But Blight Grenades ARE BRB Grenades. Aside from the restriction for Nurgle only, what are Blight Grenades? BRB Grenades.

Try again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.

And also evidence that Wargear does carry special rules.

 Charistoph wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:No, you asked me for a non-BRB grenade that refers you to the BRB. I gave you Blight, a non-BRB grenade that refers you to the BRB. You say it is like Frag which it isn't since Frag is specififally called out to check the BRB with an asterisk to be treated as Assault. But by all means, show me the Blight Grenades in the BRB. By all means show me the profiles for Blight Grenades in the Chaos Codex.

But Blight Grenades ARE BRB Grenades. Aside from the restriction for Nurgle only, what are Blight Grenades? BRB Grenades.

Try again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.

And also evidence that Wargear does carry special rules.

Cite page and rule that specifically shows "Blight Grenades" in the BRB.

Look dude, you tried for a gotcha question telling me to show you a non-BRB Grenades that directs you to the BRB. I caught you with your pants down and now you are fumbling your response by trying to change what you asked for and saying now even going so far as to openly lie about Blight Grenades being in the BRB. I answered your question exactly as to what you requested, pull up your pants and move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:


You are permitted to access those rules.
The entry for an inquisitor tells you to go to page 137 or whatever to see rad grenades, thereby meeting the basic vs advanced criteria of following the list entry.

Basic vs advanced provides you access to the core rules while using the codex, it does not grant you access to the other sections of the BRB those access options will be provided to you in the codex on an as needed basis.

I am glad we agree on heavy flamers, I think you are confused by those comments and others I make because I respond to col and you do not see the nonsense I am refuting from him. So now that I think about it, this must be why you perceive me as crazy at times. My apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the grenades. It tells you to see their special rules, The weapon section does clarify that special rules are listed after the weapon type on the profile. So weapons do directly refer you to the special rules section. This is per how profiles are described in that section.

That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.

Personally when I think of an entry with a Special Rule I think of things like a runic weapon in the Wolves codex. They have Ward which grants Admantium Will. Like how a Melta Bomb grants the Special Rule of Melta. In the case of the Rad Grenades wargear entry, and not referencing the BRB section on Grenades since we are not directed to, nothing is listed as a Special Rule and nothing refers you to reference a Special Rule for the Rad Grenades. No different than a TWM that just flat out modifies base stats with no Special Rule granting or reference.

 kronk wrote:
So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.

HIWPI: no stacking.

Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?

Ceann wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.

HIWPI: no stacking.

Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?

In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.

HIWPI: no stacking.

Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?

In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.

Description does not equal Special Rule. But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.

 Brother Ramses wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.

HIWPI: no stacking.

Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?

In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.

Description does not equal Special Rule. But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.

Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?

 Brother Ramses wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.

HIWPI: no stacking.

Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?

In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.

Description does not equal Special Rule.

It does when Unusual grenades tell us to see their special rules. Calling it a "description" instead of a special rule for them seems odd.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.

Permission is by the mention of grenades in the first place, with unusual grenades indicating those are ones without profiles - in fact,, what is written about in the rad grenade section matches up perfectly with what we are told in Unusual Grenades. Also, I second Happyjew's query to you about giving us an example of any unusual grenade that says "see Unusual Grenades (page 180)" or words to that effect.

If you have a melee weapon, you have permission to look at basic melee weapon rules. If you have a ranged weapon, you have permission to look at basic ranged weapons rules. If you have a grenade, you have permission to look at basic grenade rules. In basic grenade rules we are given the sidebox on Unusual Grenades. You still look at what is listed for the specifics to see what overwrites the basic rules, but only basic rules in conflict are overwritten. There is no conflict here to cause the unusual grenade rules to be overwritten.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.

HIWPI: no stacking.

Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?

In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.

Description does not equal Special Rule. But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.

Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?

Not that I am aware of, but that point is moot. I don't need to show you that a condition exists for Rad Grenades to be referred to the Grenades section of the BRB. You need to show me that you have been directed to and have permission to do so with Rad Grenades. We do know that Frag, Krak, Melta, and Haywire require you to reference the BRB, however Rad Grenades do not.

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:


You are permitted to access those rules.
The entry for an inquisitor tells you to go to page 137 or whatever to see rad grenades, thereby meeting the basic vs advanced criteria of following the list entry.

Basic vs advanced provides you access to the core rules while using the codex, it does not grant you access to the other sections of the BRB those access options will be provided to you in the codex on an as needed basis.

I am glad we agree on heavy flamers, I think you are confused by those comments and others I make because I respond to col and you do not see the nonsense I am refuting from him. So now that I think about it, this must be why you perceive me as crazy at times. My apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the grenades. It tells you to see their special rules, The weapon section does clarify that special rules are listed after the weapon type on the profile. So weapons do directly refer you to the special rules section. This is per how profiles are described in that section.

That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.

I am off the unusual grenades argument, please let me explain and tell me where the flaw is at.

1. Special rule section states all the special rules are presented in the special rules section. Therefore all special rules located in the BRB are in the special rules section. This page also states it is not exhaustive, but for the brb it is exhaustive because all have been presented. All others are in codex or army entry list, this is explained in basic vs advanced.

2. Unusual grenades is not located in the special rules section of the brb where, all special rules are presented, hence unusual grenades are not a special rule.

3. Basic vs advanced. The basic vs advanced rules tell us that the rules for movement, shooting, assaulting and morale apply to all models. Therefore any rule not of those above detailed sections is not an applicable rule when dealing with a non BRB document. This is further explained in basic vs advanced by stating that in the event of a conflict the rules of an army list entry or codex always take precedence. Note that weapons in the BRB are not included in the list of basic rules that apply to all models, therefore grenades and other weapons themselves are not rules, they possess rules.

4. The army list entry in codex IA for models that can purchase the special wargear rad grenades directs you to the page in codex IA that has rad grenades listed. The army list entry for rad grenades does not direct us to consult the BRB rules for grenades, therefore we do not have too, as codex takes precedence. Any rule in a codex that requires you to consult another rulebook will give you explicit directions to do so, such as "see codex: Space marines" or "see 40k:The rules" as the only permission granted you per basic vs advanced is the rules for movement, shooting, assault, and morale. Any other rules or weapons provided in a codex that exist in the BRB will either have an army entry note or a splash page in the codex armory telling you what document to reference for those rules. This is done on a case by case basis.

PER the above you are not given permission or special rule authority to consult unusual grenades in the BRB while reading Codex IA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hope we're finally done with the unusual grenades tangent and can just talk about the rad grenades.

You don't need explicit permission to look in the rule book, it's the book you look in to find out about rules.

 doctortom wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.

HIWPI: no stacking.

Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?

In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.

Description does not equal Special Rule.

It does when Unusual grenades tell us to see their special rules. Calling it a "description" instead of a special rule for them seems odd.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.

Permission is by the mention of grenades in the first place, with unusual grenades indicating those are ones without profiles - in fact,, what is written about in the rad grenade section matches up perfectly with what we are told in Unusual Grenades. Also, I second Happyjew's query to you about giving us an example of any unusual grenade that says "see Unusual Grenades (page 180)" or words to that effect.

If you have a melee weapon, you have permission to look at basic melee weapon rules. If you have a ranged weapon, you have permission to look at basic ranged weapons rules. If you have a grenade, you have permission to look at basic grenade rules. In basic grenade rules we are given the sidebox on Unusual Grenades. You still look at what is listed for the specifics to see what overwrites the basic rules, but only basic rules in conflict are overwritten. There is no conflict here to cause the unusual grenade rules to be overwritten.

Naming conventions do not dictate rules, RAW does. For some reason you and others have clamped onto the "Grenades" in Rad Grenades as a directive to immediately flip open the BRB to the Grenades section. Except the name of the wargear item is RAD GRENADES. Words matter. If you look in the codices, items like Melta Bombs and Krak Grenades refer you to the BRB, directly. Frag even directs you to the BRB, but tells you to reference Assault. But again, direct reference and direction to the BRB.

You, among others, are putting the cart before the horse. You have assumed that Rad Grenades are Unusual Grenades, which you actually have zero permission to do so, and then are going back and trying to justify that assumption by use of a faulty RAI naming convention. You have zero RAW standing to use the name as a means of determining that Rad Grenades are Unusual Grenades due to prescence of "Grenades" in the name. And that is not even taking into account that you are only cherry picking the name.

But it is a simple request that not a single one of you has been able to supply, cite the rule and page reference that tells you to refer to the BRB for Rad Grenades. Show me any cited rule that refers me to the BRB in the wargear entry for Rad Grenades and this conversation is over. As it stands, per the most basic reading of the RAW, you are never directed to or given permission to reference the BRB in the wargear entry for them. But by all means if you can show me, cite it.

Ceann wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:


You are permitted to access those rules.
The entry for an inquisitor tells you to go to page 137 or whatever to see rad grenades, thereby meeting the basic vs advanced criteria of following the list entry.

Basic vs advanced provides you access to the core rules while using the codex, it does not grant you access to the other sections of the BRB those access options will be provided to you in the codex on an as needed basis.

I am glad we agree on heavy flamers, I think you are confused by those comments and others I make because I respond to col and you do not see the nonsense I am refuting from him. So now that I think about it, this must be why you perceive me as crazy at times. My apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the grenades. It tells you to see their special rules, The weapon section does clarify that special rules are listed after the weapon type on the profile. So weapons do directly refer you to the special rules section. This is per how profiles are described in that section.

That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.

I am off the unusual grenades argument, please let me explain and tell me where the flaw is at.

1. Special rule section states all the special rules are presented in the special rules section. Therefore all special rules located in the BRB are in the special rules section. This page also states it is not exhaustive, but for the brb it is exhaustive because all have been presented. All others are in codex or army entry list, this is explained in basic vs advanced.

Irrelevant strawman argument. Unusual grenade rules state that those grenades will give you the speical rules.

Ceann wrote:
]2. Unusual grenades is not located in the special rules section of the brb where, all special rules are presented, hence unusual grenades are not a special rule.

Irrelevant strawman argument. Unusual grenades tell you the grenades have special rules. The rules are with the special grenades in codexes and supplements, not the brb. Unusual grenades only tells you to look at the special rules, but does not provide special rules itself. Therefor, not being in the special rule section is irrelevant and does not negate that we are told unusual grenades have special rules.

Ceann wrote:
3. Basic vs advanced. The basic vs advanced rules tell us that the rules for movement, shooting, assaulting and morale apply to all models. Therefore any rule not of those above detailed sections is not an applicable rule when dealing with a non BRB document. This is further explained in basic vs advanced by stating that in the event of a conflict the rules of an army list entry or codex always take precedence. Note that weapons in the BRB are not included in the list of basic rules that apply to all models, therefore grenades and other weapons themselves are not rules, they possess rules.

1. It says they "include" what you list in your first sentence. It does not say that it is exclusively those.
2. Rad grenades do not advanced > basic. As I point out, they work the basic rules for unusual grenades describe rad grenades, and we see what the special rule is when we read the rules for rad grenades. So, your entire argument here is irrelevant.

Ceann wrote:
4. The army list entry in codex IA for models that can purchase the special wargear rad grenades directs you to the page in codex IA that has rad grenades listed. The army list entry for rad grenades does not direct us to consult the BRB rules for grenades, therefore we do not have too, as codex takes precedence. Any rule in a codex that requires you to consult another rulebook will give you explicit directions to do so, such as "see codex: Space marines" or "see 40k:The rules" as the only permission granted you per basic vs advanced is the rules for movement, shooting, assault, and morale. Any other rules or weapons provided in a codex that exist in the BRB will either have an army entry note or a splash page in the codex armory telling you what document to reference for those rules. This is done on a case by case basis.

Irrelevant - for any given type of weapon you have permission to look at the brb for any basic rules for that type, even if there is something that will be overridden - otherwise, how would you know something is being overridden in the first place? The basic rules for grenades include Unusual Grenades.

I give you the same challenge that Brother Ramses was given - show us any ususual grenade in a codex or supplement that states "see Unusual Grenades" (page 180).

PER the above you are not given permission or special rule authority to consult unusual grenades in the BRB while reading Codex IA.

Ceann wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hope we're finally done with the unusual grenades tangent and can just talk about the rad grenades.

Not a tangent when the latter is a subset of the former.

xlDuke wrote:
You don't need explicit permission to look in the rule book, it's the book you look in to find out about rules.

Actually you are wrong and do not know the rules.
I explained all of it in the above you did not point out where a flaw was. You can look at the rulebook all you like.

Basic vs advanced rules located in the BRB tell you the basic rules that always apply. Grenades do not always apply.
Advanced rules tell us the codex has precedence. You are only permitted to consult the BRB in relation to codex material only when you are explicitly directed too by the codex. Those rules otherwise effectively do not exist.

 Brother Ramses wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.

HIWPI: no stacking.

Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?

In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.

Description does not equal Special Rule.

It does when Unusual grenades tell us to see their special rules. Calling it a "description" instead of a special rule for them seems odd.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.

Permission is by the mention of grenades in the first place, with unusual grenades indicating those are ones without profiles - in fact,, what is written about in the rad grenade section matches up perfectly with what we are told in Unusual Grenades. Also, I second Happyjew's query to you about giving us an example of any unusual grenade that says "see Unusual Grenades (page 180)" or words to that effect.

If you have a melee weapon, you have permission to look at basic melee weapon rules. If you have a ranged weapon, you have permission to look at basic ranged weapons rules. If you have a grenade, you have permission to look at basic grenade rules. In basic grenade rules we are given the sidebox on Unusual Grenades. You still look at what is listed for the specifics to see what overwrites the basic rules, but only basic rules in conflict are overwritten. There is no conflict here to cause the unusual grenade rules to be overwritten.

Naming conventions do not dictate rules, RAW does. For some reason you and others have clamped onto the "Grenades" in Rad Grenades as a directive to immediately flip open the BRB to the Grenades section. Except the name of the wargear item is RAD GRENADES. Words matter. If you look in the codices, items like Melta Bombs and Krak Grenades refer you to the BRB, directly. Frag even directs you to the BRB, but tells you to reference Assault. But again, direct reference and direction to the BRB.

You, among others, are putting the cart before the horse. You have assumed that Rad Grenades are Unusual Grenades, which you actually have zero permission to do so, and then are going back and trying to justify that assumption by use of a faulty RAI naming convention. You have zero RAW standing to use the name as a means of determining that Rad Grenades are Unusual Grenades due to prescence of "Grenades" in the name. And that is not even taking into account that you are only cherry picking the name.

But it is a simple request that not a single one of you has been able to supply, cite the rule and page reference that tells you to refer to the BRB for Rad Grenades. Show me any cited rule that refers me to the BRB in the wargear entry for Rad Grenades and this conversation is over. As it stands, per the most basic reading of the RAW, you are never directed to or given permission to reference the BRB in the wargear entry for them. But by all means if you can show me, cite it.

So, basically, you can't. show us any unusual grenades that state "see Unusual Grenades (page 180)" If you can't, then the whole argument of saying that we need permission to refer back to the main book grenade section is shot down when we have a grenade that's not a normal grenade listed in the book, at least from the standpoint of how GW is handling Unusual Grenades.

Like I said earlier, you are assuming Unusual Grenades by presencence of name and then going back and trying to turn it into a Special Rule per the Unusual Grenades RAW. Not how it works. Let me educate you;

I give my Assault Squad Melta Bombs. I read my codex special issue wargear section for Melta Bombs and am directed to the BRB. I follow the directions in the BRB for Melta Bombs. Wow, RAW!

I give my inquisitor Rad Grenades. I read my codex special issue wargear section for Rad Grenades. I follow the directions in the special issue wargear section for Rad Grenades. Wow, RAW!

Now let's look at your process,

You give your inquisitor Rad Grenades. You note the word "Grenades" so reference the BRB rules on Grenades. You see that the wargear entry for Rad Grenades has no profile so match it to Unusual Grenades and therefore deem the entry for the Rad grenades as being a Special Rule. Wow, RAI!

Hope this Mr Rogers walk through was simple enough for you to see the error in your ways.

I don't think you understand at all tom.

1 applys because special rules supersede the codex precedence of the brb. The grenades do give you special rules, haywire grenades have the haywire rule, meltabombs have the melta rule. We are told these effects are special rules and they are found I the special rules section. You are not given permission to determine what is and is not a special rule, special rules within the BRB again are only located in the special rules section.

Yes, unusual grenades do tell you that unusual grenades have special rules. Such as melta bombs or haywire grenades, or do not have a profile, such as assault grenades. Do you see rad grenades listed in the grenades section? No? Where are the rules for the rad grenades in the brb? Unusual grenades apply to the various grenades located in the section.

Are the weapon type grenades located in the included list of movement shooting assault or morale? Can you point me to the page in the BRB where these rules are at in those sections?

Basic vs advanced tell us the codex has precedence. Did you even look at the IA codex? It tells you the page for rad grenades, rad grenades do not tell you to look at the BRB, rad grenades are not a weapon they are a special wargear.

Because grenades are not included in the basic vs advanced mandatory sections the unusual grenades rules so not apply to rad grenades, the codex has precedence, do you understand what that means? Unless the army list entry directs you to consult those rules then you use them RAW as they exist in the codex IA.

You need to do some research on basic rules, special rules, codexs and their interactions.

Ceann,

are you saying that when a player reads a Codex that he is blind to any rule or information in the BRB that is not a basic rule or directly referenced to the BRB from within the Codex?

Am I saying that? No,I am not.
Basic vs advanced in the BRB tells us what rules basic rules always apply and that the codex and army entry lists have precedence.
I am telling you what the rules say.

I am assuming that is what you meant to ask.

You left something out by the way, special rules supersede the codex precedence over the BRB. All special rules presented in the BRB can be found in the special rules section.

Ceann wrote:
Am I saying that? No,I am not.
Basic vs advanced in the BRB tells us what rules basic rules always apply and that the codex and army entry lists have precedence.
I am telling you what the rules say, if I was saying this it would be RAI.

Please just provide a straight answer.

When a player reads a Codex, what rules in the BRB does he have permission to know?

Movement, shooting, assault and morale rules. Any rules referenced by a "see X" statement from that codex and any special rules that supersede the codex precedence.

Not only that, it sounds like he's saying that you can't ever have unusual grenades in a codex because they aren't listed in the BRB. And that they're only talking about unusual grenades in the brb, so it's never possible to have unusual grenades in a codex.

I discredited his point about movement shooting etc etc but he doesn't want to accept that. it's irrelevant, as is basic vs. advanced when the basic dovetails with the advanced. No demonstration of unusual grenades saying "see Unusual grenades (page 180), so no examples of unusual grenades having to refer back to the main book to show that an unusual grenade is an unusual grenade.

Never mind the fact that the description of the rad grenade effect was a description that wouldn't stack.

Ceann wrote:
Movement, shooting, assault and morale rules. Any rules referenced by a "see X" statement from that codex and any special rules that supersede the codex precedence.

What about advanced rules in the BRB?

When a player reads a Codex, are they allowed to know about the advanced rules in the BRB?

If those rules are on the Army List Entry, sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are we at the spot where you make your point or do you have some more one liner entrapment questions?

Do you have a scenario you would like to present?

Ceann wrote:
If those rules are on the Army List Entry, sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are we at the spot where you make your point or do you have some more one liner entrapment questions?

Do you have a scenario you would like to present?

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.

HIWPI: no stacking.

Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?

In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.

Description does not equal Special Rule. But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.

Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?

Why are we required to provide some codex reference to the BRB?
You are the one concerned about finding unusual grenades, feel free to check all the codexs you wish.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
The wargear called rad grenades is not listed under the weapon section of the army entry list which is where a bolter would be, nor are we told to access the brb by the army entry lists either.

A specific model would be a space marine with a bolter, this is giving him permission per the entry to use the rules for the bolter.

Brother Ramses wrote:Cite page and rule that specifically shows "Blight Grenades" in the BRB.

Look dude, you tried for a gotcha question telling me to show you a non-BRB Grenades that directs you to the BRB. I caught you with your pants down and now you are fumbling your response by trying to change what you asked for and saying now even going so far as to openly lie about Blight Grenades being in the BRB. I answered your question exactly as to what you requested, pull up your pants and move on.

Wrong direction. You presented the evidence yourself and you are now ignoring it.

"Blight Grenades count as both assault and defensive grenades." What are assault and defensive grenades? Where can the be found? The rules for assault and defensive grenades are not found in the Chaos Marine codex. I look in the BRB and I find them there.

Therefore, Blight Grenades are just a form of BRB Grenades that are combined in to one entry and given a new name.

Therefore, try again.

More importantly than that, Unusual Grenades, whether Rad Grenades invokes them or not, adequately demonstrate that a Wargear can carry special rules, and as we see for the Assault Grenades use in Assault, they may not be any USR but unique to that Wargear in question.

Ceann wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
You don't need explicit permission to look in the rule book, it's the book you look in to find out about rules.

Actually you are wrong and do not know the rules.
I explained all of it in the above you did not point out where a flaw was. You can look at the rulebook all you like.

Basic vs advanced rules located in the BRB tell you the basic rules that always apply. Grenades do not always apply.
Advanced rules tell us the codex has precedence. You are only permitted to consult the BRB in relation to codex material only when you are explicitly directed too by the codex. Those rules otherwise effectively do not exist.

Basic rules do not always apply. Assault Rules do not apply while doing Movement. Shooting Rules do not apply during Movement. Movement Rules do not apply during Shooting, except if you Run. Shooting Rules in Assault only apply for Overwatch.

You are often to refer to the BRB for many things. Sometimes it is to find out if they are actually providing a conflict. Sometimes it is because another rule is being referenced, such as the timing for a Charge with Rad Grenades. Sometimes it is how it relates to other rules in the game.

Not referencing the BRB just because you aren't specifically told is faulty logic.

Are you doing word soup again col? I can sense it coming.

Ceann wrote:

The wargear called rad grenades is not listed under the weapon section of the army entry list which is where a bolter would be, nor are we told to access the brb by the army entry lists either.

A specific model would be a space marine with a bolter, this is giving him permission per the entry to use the rules for the bolter.

Answer the question please.

Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?

 Charistoph wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Cite page and rule that specifically shows "Blight Grenades" in the BRB.

Look dude, you tried for a gotcha question telling me to show you a non-BRB Grenades that directs you to the BRB. I caught you with your pants down and now you are fumbling your response by trying to change what you asked for and saying now even going so far as to openly lie about Blight Grenades being in the BRB. I answered your question exactly as to what you requested, pull up your pants and move on.

Wrong direction. You presented the evidence yourself and you are now ignoring it.

"Blight Grenades count as both assault and defensive grenades." What are assault and defensive grenades? Where can the be found? The rules for assault and defensive grenades are not found in the Chaos Marine codex. I look in the BRB and I find them there.

Therefore, Blight Grenades are just a form of BRB Grenades that are combined in to one entry and given a new name.

Therefore, try again.

More importantly than that, Unusual Grenades, whether Rad Grenades invokes them or not, adequately demonstrate that a Wargear can carry special rules, and as we see for the Assault Grenades use in Assault, they may not be any USR but unique to that Wargear in question.

Ceann wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
You don't need explicit permission to look in the rule book, it's the book you look in to find out about rules.

Actually you are wrong and do not know the rules.
I explained all of it in the above you did not point out where a flaw was. You can look at the rulebook all you like.

Basic vs advanced rules located in the BRB tell you the basic rules that always apply. Grenades do not always apply.
Advanced rules tell us the codex has precedence. You are only permitted to consult the BRB in relation to codex material only when you are explicitly directed too by the codex. Those rules otherwise effectively do not exist.

Basic rules do not always apply. Assault Rules do not apply while doing Movement. Shooting Rules do not apply during Movement. Movement Rules do not apply during Shooting, except if you Run. Shooting Rules in Assault only apply for Overwatch.

You are often to refer to the BRB for many things. Sometimes it is to find out if they are actually providing a conflict. Sometimes it is because another rule is being referenced, such as the timing for a Charge with Rad Grenades. Sometimes it is how it relates to other rules in the game.

Not referencing the BRB just because you aren't specifically told is faulty logic.

Please go read the page buddy.
It states those rules apply to all models. It doesnt say you apply them in phases they aren't relevant in. That is just a line of foolish statements you are making to try and make what is stated there sound silly, which it is not. This is a poorly made argument on your part. Please come back with something more concrete.

As for the grenades notice the difference? Blight grenades tell you to check the BRB, so you can! They also directly refer you to check the BRB for those rules.

Rad grenades do not tell you to check the brb so you cannot.