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col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
What is a basic rule?
What is an advanced rule?
What is a special rule?

1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.

2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.

That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.

3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

Incorrect Col.

1.ALL advanced rules are located in the Appendix.
Units are not located in the Appendix, therefore they cannot be advanced rules.

Therefore all units rules are basic rules.

2."Special rules are in the special rules section"

Special rules are advanced rules per Basic vs Advanced.

A compendium of special rules -
"We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule."


The Special Rules section is from page 156 to page 174.
At the top of each page it says Special Rules.

Page 176 changes the section at the top to weaponry.

Weaponry do not equal special rules.
Therefore...
Weaponry do not equal advanced rules.
Therefore...
Weaponry are basic rules.

Can we talk about rad grenades yet?

Oh look a GW rulebook contradicts itself

making another amusing looping argument of who can hit "Copy, Paste" the most

The book doesn't contradict itself, he is performing word soup again.

Ceann wrote:


Incorrect Col.

1.ALL advanced rules are located in the Appendix.
Units are not located in the Appendix, therefore they cannot be advanced rules.

Therefore all units rules are basic rules.

Apparently you are not actually reading the rules that you brought to my attention.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

1) So basic rules have to be in the Core Rules section since that section contains all of them. The Unit Type section is its own section and is NOT in the Core Rules section. Any rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules.

2) Advanced rules do not have to be in the Appendix. The Appendix does not state that it contains all of the advanced rules. The Appendix is just a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities, so advanced rules could also be in some other section.


So if Basic versus Advanced is a dichotomy such that a rule is either basic or advanced we can conclude that the rules in the Unit Type section are advanced rules.

No Col.

Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

The only advanced rules in the Appendix are special rules.

Per special rules section - Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

Per A Compendium of Special Rules -

We’ve presented them ALL in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.

Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here.

Which will clarify ...."Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Only special rules supersede basic rules.



All special rules in the BRB are presented in the special rules section.
Therefore all advanced rules are all special rules.
Therefore all advanced rules are in the special rules section.
Therefore units are not advanced rules.
Therefore units are not in the special rules section.
Therefore units are basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
No Col.

Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

The only advanced rules in the Appendix are special rules.

There is nothing to support this claim. Advanced rules could be in the Grenades section.

Ceann wrote:

Per special rules section - Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

Per A Compendium of Special Rules -

We’ve presented them ALL in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.

Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here.

Cool. So there is a section for Special Rules.

Ceann wrote:
Which will clarify ...."Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Only special rules supersede basic rules.

Incorrect. Advanced rules supersede basic rules as well.

Ceann wrote:

All special rules in the BRB are presented in the special rules section.

Incorrect.

Ceann wrote:

Therefore all advanced rules are all special rules.

You have no proof backing this claim.

Ceann wrote:
Therefore all advanced rules are in the special rules section.

Again no proof. Where do you see a rule establishing that Special Rules is synonymous with Advanced Rules? You are clearly treating them as synonyms but have never proved it. Where is your proof?

Ceann wrote:
Therefore units are basic rules.

Unit is a basic rule, but all the rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules.



The Unit Types section is an entirely different section than the Core Rules section and so by virtue of the above rule declaration cannot be basic rules.



Your logical argumentation here is terrible. Make sure to read the rule statements carefully. In fact, at this point we are witnessing your argument completely falling apart.



This is what we know based on the rules as written and logic . . .

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

1) So basic rules have to be in the Core Rules section since that section contains all of them. The Unit Type section is its own section and is NOT in the Core Rules section. Any rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules.

2) Advanced rules do not have to be in the Appendix. The Appendix does not state that it contains all of the advanced rules. The Appendix is just a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities, so advanced rules could also be in some other section.


So if Basic versus Advanced is a dichotomy such that a rule is either basic or advanced we can conclude that the rules in the Unit Type section (and any section for that matter that is not in the Core Rules section) are advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
The book doesn't contradict itself, he is performing word soup again.

Your consistently proven wrong yet fail to admit or acknowledge the arguments or questions. Considering your doing the exact same thing you accuse him of doing, I find it hilarious that you two are arguing. This thread should have been locked 10 pages ago when you started ducking questions.

It really isn't.
You are engaging in a silly game in order to try to invalidate an argument rather than arguing the point because you cannot win arguing the point.


Per basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.

Page 62 Unit Types

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

Characteristic profiles are located in the core rules.
Therefore unit types are basic rules.

Per Basic vs Advanced
If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.

Therefore a special rule is an advanced rule.

And you still have not answered my question. You dodged it both times it was asked. Your entire post has nothing to do with the question I asked

Fragile wrote:

Ceann wrote:
The book doesn't contradict itself, he is performing word soup again.

Your consistently proven wrong yet fail to admit or acknowledge the arguments or questions. Considering your doing the exact same thing you accuse him of doing, I find it hilarious that you two are arguing. This thread should have been locked 10 pages ago when you started ducking questions.

*You're.

You are having an emotional response to my argument so are glad to perceive it as wrong.
The issue is that you were asking a loaded question that didn't have an answer.
Because you actually don't understand the rules at all.

So did you post to participate or just because you were bored and wanted to harass me again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem is your question is not a legitimate question because of the way you are framing it.

Ceann wrote:
It really isn't.
You are engaging in a silly game in order to try to invalidate an argument rather than arguing the point because you cannot win arguing the point.


Per basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.

Page 62 Unit Types

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

Characteristic profiles are located in the core rules.
Therefore unit types are basic rules.

Your argument is ridiculously unsound here. An extension of the characteristic profile could involve advanced rules.

The rules in the Unit Type section are NOT basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
Per Basic vs Advanced
If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.

Therefore a special rule is an advanced rule.

Sure all special rules are advanced rules. But not all advanced rules are special rules. Special rules are a subset of advanced rules.

The rules in the Unit Types section CANNOT be basic rules so per the dichotomy of basic versus advanced they are advanced rules while not being special rules.

Page 62 Unit Types

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

Characteristic profile's are located in the core rules section. Unit's are located directly after characteristic profile's in the core rules.

Unit type is an extension of that profile, it is therefore a basic rule.
You are right all of the rules in the unit type section are not basic rules Col.

If you looked at the section you will see the special rules located for each unit type that has those special rules.
Like Fleet, Relentless, Hammer of Wrath.

Unit types however are basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
Page 62 Unit Types

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

Characteristic profile's are located in the core rules section. Unit's are located directly after characteristic profile's in the core rules.

Unit type is an extension of that profile, it is therefore a basic rule.

Your argument is ridiculously unsound here. An extension of the characteristic profile could involve advanced rules.

The rules in the Unit Type section are NOT basic rules.



The Unit Types section is an entirely different section than the Core Rules section and so by virtue of the above rule declaration cannot be basic rules.

Everything on page 62 is NOT a basic rule.

Page 62 Unit Types

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

Characteristic profile's are located in the core rules section. Unit's are located directly after characteristic profile's in the core rules.

Unit type is an extension of that profile, it is therefore a basic rule.


Special rules are also located in Unit Type section.
If you looked at the section you will see the special rules located for each unit type that has those special rules.
Like Fleet, Relentless, Hammer of Wrath.

So it is correct the Unit Type Section does not contain all basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
Page 62 Unit Types

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

Characteristic profile's are located in the core rules section. Unit's are located directly after characteristic profile's in the core rules.

Unit type is an extension of that profile, it is therefore a basic rule.


Special rules are also located in Unit Type section.
If you looked at the section you will see the special rules located for each unit type that has those special rules.
Like Fleet, Relentless, Hammer of Wrath.

So it is correct the Unit Type Section does not contain all basic rules.

The Unit Type section does not contain ANY basic rules. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

All the rules in the Unit Type section are Advanced Rules if the dichotomy Basic versus Advanced applies to all rules.


1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.

2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.

That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.

3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

The rule for Units is located in the core rules section directly after characteristics.

Unit types are an extension of the rule for Units located in the core rules.

Ceann wrote:
The rule for Units is located in the core rules section directly after characteristics.

Unit types are an extension of the rule for Units located in the core rules.

The Core Rules section is where the basic rules are.

All rules in any section that is not the Core Rules section are advanced rules.



So all the rules in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.

Page 8 of core rules
Models and Units

Units are a part of Characteristic profiles.
Unit types are an extension of Characteristic profiles,
Characteristic profiles are a basic rule.
Units are a basic rule.
Therefore unit types are a basic rule.

The unit types section contains special rules. Special rules are located in the advanced rules of the appendix.

Unit types are a sub-type of units.
No new basic rules are being added to the core rules.
Profiles for unit types are being provided.

Ceann wrote:
Page 8 of core rules
Models and Units

Units are a part of Characteristic profiles.
Unit types are an extension of Characteristic profiles,
Characteristic profiles are a basic rule.
Units are a basic rule.
Therefore unit types are a basic rule.

The unit types section contains special rules. Special rules are located in the advanced rules of the appendix.

Unit types are a sub-type of units.
No new basic rules are being added to the core rules.
Profiles for unit types are being provided.

All rules page 62 and after are NOT basic rules. They are advanced rules.



Page 62 is the beginning of the sections of the book that come after the Core Rules section. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section. This leaves advanced rules for all rules not in the Core Rules section.


You have no argument Ceann.

I'm waiting for the moment they start making out =D

LMAO.

Ok man.

Basic vs Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

How to use weapons and weapon profile rules are located in the core rules.

Using a weapon is a basic rule.
Therefore all weapons are basic rules.
Because just as you said all basic rules are in the core rules.
Therefore all grenades in the weaponry section are basic rules.
Therefore advanced rules are special rules.

Ceann wrote:
LMAO.

Ok man.

Basic vs Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

How to use weapons and weapon profile rules are located in the core rules.

Using a weapon is a basic rule.
Therefore all weapons are basic rules.
Therefore all grenades in the weaponry section are basic rules.
Therefore advanced rules are special rules.

All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.



The Core Rules do provide rules that "apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. . . . [the Core Rules] include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

Any rule outside the Core Rules section is an advanced rule.

The Grenade section is not in the Core Rules.


Sorry, Ceann, but your argument has failed.

We also have codex precedence telling us that unit types do not follow advanced rules, they follow rules.

Basic vs Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

Per Army List Entry

6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a
number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Show me some rules that are advanced rules Col.

Ceann wrote:
We also have codex precedence telling us that unit types do not follow advanced rules, they follow rules.

Basic vs Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

Per Army List Entry

6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a
number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Show me some rules that are advanced rules Col.

Open up the BRB to the Unit Types section and any section after that. Just make sure you are not in the Core Rules section where the Basic Rules are.

All the rules outside the Core Rules section are advanced rules and can supersede the basic rules in the Core Rules section.



The Unit Type section does not contain ANY basic rules. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

All the rules in the Unit Type section are Advanced Rules if the dichotomy Basic versus Advanced applies to all rules.


1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.

2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale (the basic rules are found in the Core Rules section)

Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.

That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.

3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

Incorrect.

We are using Army List Entry.
The rules for Army List Entry are in the codex.
The codex supersedes the BRB.

The Army List Entry states that unit types are rules not advanced rules.

Per Basic vs Advanced the Codex has precedence.
Unit types are basic rules when used in a codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The
cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost.

Grenades in the codex fall under wargear.
Wargear per the Army List Entry is BASIC equipment, not advanced equipment.

Weapons are basic rules in the codex.
A grenade is a weapon.
A grenade is a basic weapon.

Ceann wrote:Incorrect Col.

1.ALL advanced rules are located in the Appendix.
Units are not located in the Appendix, therefore they cannot be advanced rules.

Therefore all units rules are basic rules.

2."Special rules are in the special rules section"

Special rules are advanced rules per Basic vs Advanced.

A compendium of special rules -
"We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule."


The Special Rules section is from page 156 to page 174.
At the top of each page it says Special Rules.

Page 176 changes the section at the top to weaponry.

Weaponry do not equal special rules.
Therefore...
Weaponry do not equal advanced rules.
Therefore...
Weaponry are basic rules.

Can we talk about rad grenades yet?

Incorrect. I don't know what Col_Ignored is posting, but you have repeatedly posted some errors in accuracy.

1) "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale." - Basic vs Advanced.

2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry." - Basic vs Advanced.

3) Special rules are not exclusive to the Special Rules section, because they are, "(w)henever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules". Location means nothing in qualifying what is or is not a "special rule". There is a compendium that lists all the universal ones that can be found on many different units and unit types, but it is not, "an exhaustive list".

You have been corrected on this numerous times now. Basic rules cover from The Turn through Morale. Unit Types are Advanced Rules (except for Infantry). Universal Special Rules are Advanced Rules. The rules for the Grenades are Advanced Rules.

Ceann wrote:
Incorrect.

We are using Army List Entry.
The rules for Army List Entry are in the codex.
The codex supersedes the BRB.

The Army List Entry states that unit types are rules not advanced rules.

Per Basic vs Advanced the Codex has precedence.
Unit types are basic rules when used in a codex.

'rules' is not specific. It could refer to basic rules or advanced rules. If the rule referred to is in the Core Rules section then its a basic rule. If its not then its an advanced rule.

Ceann wrote:
8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The
cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost.

Grenades in the codex fall under wargear.
Wargear per the Army List Entry is BASIC equipment, not advanced equipment.

Weapons are basic rules in the codex.
A grenade is a weapon.

This is a shoddy argument. The adjective 'basic' does not equal 'basic rule'. 'Basic' is being used here to describe the Army List Entries starting gear which is why it's include in the points cost.

A shoddy argument?

The discussion is suppose to be about rad grenades, yet you do anything except talk about them.
You have changed your argument what 20,30+ times? More?

And you say I have a shoddy argument?

Apparently not so shoddy if you have been going at it all day and have been unable to prove your point. If anything you have not had a good argument and you are more concerned about debating nonsense than making sure the rule is actually properly sorted out.

Ceann wrote:
A shoddy argument?

The discussion is suppose to be about rad grenades, yet you do anything except talk about them.
You have changed your argument what 20,30+ times? More?

And you say I have a shoddy argument?

Apparently not so shoddy if you have been going at it all day and have been unable to prove your point. If anything you have not had a good argument and you are more concerned about debating nonsense than making sure the rule is actually properly sorted out.

Your argument was based on a slough of misunderstanding of basic terms.

We need to agree on a use of terms that is grounded in the rules.

1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.

2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale (the basic rules are found in the Core Rules section)

Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.

That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.

3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


When an Army Entry List mentions 'grenades', the reader of the Codex is fully aware of and applies the advanced rules from the Grenades section. The Codex does not insert its own definition of 'grenades' since it has none. Those advanced rules include the rules for Unusual Grenades.

If advanced rules are in the units section why does the index say advanced rules are on page 13?
If the source of advanced rules are on page 13 that makes advanced rules, basic rules, as advanced rules are located in the core rules section.
ALL basic rules are located in the core rules section.