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Figured another Tactics would be in order for these guys, especially since a preliminary review of them on Bloodofkittens ranked them "least competitive" of the new Legions, to which I say balderdash! Worse than Thousand Sons? Bite my shiny cybernetic fundament!

At first, the problems with Iron Warriors look pretty simple: An "average" Warlord table (meaning with a few notable duds; your Chaos Lord could become Fearless!), Relics that may well not exist ("This Relic lets you give your vehicles Daemonic Possession!" "This relic situationally makes your Warpsmith better in a Challenge!") and some otherwise-questionable options all around. Add the inability to take Marks, and a Detachment whose rules initially look like they do next-to-nothing, and you wonder if the writers of Iron Warriors accidentally slipped some Imperial Fists notes into the works!

As usual, looks are deceiving. Even without access to Mark of Nurgle, Obliterator Troops are boss. Tank Hunter Obliterators are moreso; a Tank Hunting Assault Cannon is better than Grav vs AV 10, about on-par vs AV 11, and slightly worse vs AV 12 and 13, though don't discount the ability to shake/stun/destroy weapons too. Having the option to run a single tax-lite CAD in support of a larger detachment also grants you re-rolls on Strategic, which is still a really good table to this day. This also grants FW for those that like it.

The Grand Company's bonuses are potentially entertaining though managing it is tricky, and depending on where you play, there's probably a cap on how many Fortifications you can cram in. Stubborn is surprisingly underrated, because not only does it protect against being swept in close combat, but it also protects against ANY leadership modifiers for Morale/Pinning. The moment you face an Eldar player allying in a Death Jester/Mask of Fear Shadowseer, you'll be glad you're testing Morale vs "Death is Not Enough" on Leadership 10 instead of 4 like the Loyalist cowards!

Taking advantage of the rerolls to Ordnance/Barrage is trickier though. The only two units in the base Chaos codex that have Ordnance are the Vindicator and the Defiler. The former is short-ranged and fragile, the latter obscenely overcosted. Plus if you want to run Iron Warriors, you're going to run one or the other, as taking 2 Warpsmiths is going to set you back too many points otherwise in an 1850-pt game. Fist of the Gods lets you run 3 Vindicators, and potentially Outflank one if you use Legacies of Glory, and it might be a cute form of disruption/area denial. If you use ITC rules for Invisibility, it becomes more valid, at least until fliers enter the field. Otherwise, 3 Vindicators and a Warpsmith buys you a Renegade Dakkaknight and leftovers!

A more...aggressively conservative option would be to run a Warpack, and use a Defiler as your Alpha. This is if you wish to run Maulerfiends and Spawn though, and such a build is probably better with Word Bearers, as their bonuses tend to revolve around fishing for Malefic Results. Still, a 4++ AV walker with a Battlecannon that re-rolls scatter and to-wound is not the worst option, especially when it can challenge out hidden Meltabombs.

Perhaps the simplest Auxiliary for a Warband is a 40-point Munitorium Armored Crate and supplies though. It's more thematically appropriate than taking a single Spawn, the ammo crates give your Havocs even more accuracy, and you can turn your Bike Tax into a makeshift Hellhound via the fuel tanks.

What are your thoughts on using the Iron Warriors? From list-building/theorycrafting, to running them on the field?

I am going to run my Iron Warriors with a combination of the Grand Company and a CAD.
The Grand Company gives access to many fortifications, which i am going to use, while the CAD is used to unlock Vindicators without formations, LoW or FW models.

The fortifications i use would be a bastion (with ammo store for the Havocs inside) and/or the Vengeance Weapon Battery.

The CAD would be filled with 2 Oblits as troops and a Sorcerer as HQ and then adding units not in the Warband. My units of choice would be the Chaos Typhon or Vindicators.

The loss of marks is very sad, especially because some of my conversions are now illegal for Iron Warriors, but getting Tank Hunter on the signature units (Oblits and Havocs) somewhat mitigates that fact.

A way to actually use the rerolling scatter for ordnance guns is to use the relatively cheap wall of martyrs weapons platform with a battle cannon. Its cheaper than a leman russ tank, or even a basilisk, and has better armor at the cost of not being able to move.
On another note, bringing 3 macro cannons could be hilarious if you wanted to have an army with zero mobility outside of MSU bike squads that plops 6 strength D blasts every turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the secret to actually making IW work is by simply trying to outlast your opponent while mowing them down with all the guns in your armoury, grabbing objectives as you need to, and tying up close combat squads with whatever you can while praying one of your blast weapons scatters into the combat.

Looking at the Iron Warriors... Any Iron Warrior army making proper use of their rules will be built around some balance of those four things:

-Obliterator/Mutilators
-Havocs
-Fortifications
-Barrage Weapons

It seems the most straight forward build is one that starts with fortifications that have barrage weapons, that can embark and benefit from a Havoc squads Champion or a Warpsmith manning its weapon. This really emphasizes a strong static component to your army, which when taken as part of the Grand Company, should lean you towards Bikes, Raptors, and Terminators to fulfill the requirements of the Chaos Warband.

All three units operate under relatively similar principles... relatively minimal sized units deploying and approaching enemies from unexpected table positions through a variety of means. Usually bringing melta or flamer type special weapons depending on the the enemy. .

My issue with the Grand Company is that so much of the Chaos Warband core choice ends up feeling like a tax on rather situational rules. Further Warpsmith/Obliterators/Mutilators/Defiler, units we are seemingly steered towards because of our rules, are all units that are generally overpriced and I don't necessarily believe our rules go far enough to compensate for those high point costs.

I think an overall approach that may work well is after selecting your fortifications, your 2 Chaos Space Marines squads, havoc squad, and lord for the Warband... to build the rest of the Grand Company around a significant number of small deep striking units. If you can bring enough small deep striking units you an force your opponent into a situation in which they are forced to either address the fortifications and the units in them or by addressing units that are so relatively minimal that your opponent's fire power is wasted through overkill. In that situations Mutilators actually become viable because target saturating your opponent will give the mutilators the opportunity to be ignored long enough to punch a tank or tie up a smaller unit.

Great as allies. 2+ re-rollable dp and a bunch of troop tankhunting oblis.

As of a main force option, CAD is clearly superior to anything else IW can bring simply due to obli troops.

You can build something like:
2-3 sorcs, 0-1 tzeenc 2+ re-rollable dp, 10-15 solo oblis, VSG, bunker with comms relay, khornedogs. That'd fit in a 1850 list easilly. A lot of flexibility with oblis. Can fish for cursed earth to ds oblis to get them closer to the enemy. They're all obsec to boot. You score, you shoot with whatever weapon you want, you can kill stuff in mellee as every single unit is either mellee-oriented or has a fist.

I would suggest the humble 85 point Battle cannon Vengance Weapons Battery as your Aux of choice instead of the shipping container. More thematic, AV14 and makes use of the twin linked ordnance rules which massively offsets the BS2 automated fire as they're now getting a direct hit almost 60% of the time. In fact, you could do significantly worse than taking 6 of them and letting them go nuts. Just remember - "Friendly fire, isn't".

As others have said, a Tz marked prince with 2+ armour is no joke and oblits as troops with tank hunter is brutally good. Autohavoks with tank hunter are, for their cost, probably one of the best light anti armour options available.

 Drasius wrote:
I would suggest the humble 85 point Battle cannon Vengance Weapons Battery...

Do you think taking 6 of these is worthwhile? Alternatively do you think it makes sense to get the Wall of Martyr bunker that can upgrade to two battle cannons?

Can iron warriors take psykers? I'd imagine using Writhing Worldscape to send floating bastions and macro-cannons across the battlefield could be pretty useful.

That would be epic... I'm pretty sure they can.

 Badablack wrote:
Can iron warriors take psykers? I'd imagine using Writhing Worldscape to send floating bastions and macro-cannons across the battlefield could be pretty useful.

In NOVA format def would work.

I think a CAD with 6 single oblits is probably the most efficient.

What are your thoughts on the relics Iron Warriors can use?

I thought about running a Chaos Lord on bike with the axe of the forgemaster and a sigil. He is not really expensive but has 4 AP 2 attacks with armourbane.
The problem is a Lord with fist and claw gets either more strength or a re-rollable to wound and has still access to relics, but is more expensive.
What do you think is the better way to run such a lord?

 PimpMasterGeneral wrote:
What are your thoughts on the relics Iron Warriors can use?

I thought about running a Chaos Lord on bike with the axe of the forgemaster and a sigil. He is not really expensive but has 4 AP 2 attacks with armourbane.
The problem is a Lord with fist and claw gets either more strength or a re-rollable to wound and has still access to relics, but is more expensive.
What do you think is the better way to run such a lord?

Personally I wouldn't, the AP 2 is nice but the unweildly makes it less appealing and the armourbane kinda redundant with tankhunter Oblits and havocs.

I'm looking at the Fleshmetal DP, Daemon of Tzeentch,ML3, Wings, spell familiar. He's 2+ 5++, reroll ones, IWND, and FnP 6+ for 320pts its expensive but he flies around being pretty tanky. I was thinking about sticking to the Tzeentch discipline and using him a psychic gun platform, with either Breath of chaos or Baleful devolution he can bust 2+ armor or if you roll doombolt have even more tank busting capabilities.

Voidshield generators are something I want to give a whirl with protecting the gunline as well since they're not too point heavy and provides yet another distraction.

The Daemon Prince did get better in that manner. It would be a good idea to roll two on Tzeentch and then once on Telepathy for Shriek.

Im of.the opinion that the IW relics are good as gimmicks but lack any actual power beside the 2+ armor set, and even that is a little overcosted for what it does. I don't think a 1/3 chance of gaining a wound back a turn is that great of an extra benefit when most of the time I lose my lord in one round of shooting and combat. The IWND just, and the rest of the relics and the majority of warlord traits just feel like missed opportunities all around, and not very fluffy or strong.

aka_mythos wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
I would suggest the humble 85 point Battle cannon Vengance Weapons Battery...

Do you think taking 6 of these is worthwhile? Alternatively do you think it makes sense to get the Wall of Martyr bunker that can upgrade to two battle cannons?

There's definately worse things you could take for the points. If you've got everything else you want in your list and have the free points or just want to expand into a higher points bracket, I'd say go for it.

Badablack wrote:Can iron warriors take psykers? I'd imagine using Writhing Worldscape to send floating bastions and macro-cannons across the battlefield could be pretty useful.

SonsofVulkan wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
Can iron warriors take psykers? I'd imagine using Writhing Worldscape to send floating bastions and macro-cannons across the battlefield could be pretty useful.

In NOVA format def would work.

Can't affect buildings, only terrain features IIRC, though I don't recall if NOVA changes this.

PimpMasterGeneral wrote:What are your thoughts on the relics Iron Warriors can use?

I thought about running a Chaos Lord on bike with the axe of the forgemaster and a sigil. He is not really expensive but has 4 AP 2 attacks with armourbane.
The problem is a Lord with fist and claw gets either more strength or a re-rollable to wound and has still access to relics, but is more expensive.
What do you think is the better way to run such a lord?

Are you really having problems with things that need armourbane in melee? If so, is it worth giving up the flexibility that fist/claw has for not much more pen chance? (str8 + d6 [11.5] vs str5 + 2d6 [12]). I'd be shoving the Fleshmetal armour on the lord instead (unless you're also taking a deamon prince).

Ir0njack wrote:I'm looking at the Fleshmetal DP, Daemon of Tzeentch,ML3, Wings, spell familiar. He's 2+ 5++, reroll ones, IWND, and FnP 6+ for 320pts its expensive but he flies around being pretty tanky. I was thinking about sticking to the Tzeentch discipline and using him a psychic gun platform, with either Breath of chaos or Baleful devolution he can bust 2+ armor or if you roll doombolt have even more tank busting capabilities.

Voidshield generators are something I want to give a whirl with protecting the gunline as well since they're not too point heavy and provides yet another distraction.

The Tz discipline is fairly lacklustre, I see no reason why you'd roll on it any more than you have to. Telepathy ad Biomancy offer you so much more than Tz. Breath is especially underwhelming, though devolution has some promise and doombolt, while great against bikes and infantry, isn't so flash against tanks since it's just a single powerfist hit. Completely agree with the void shields though, they're very good for their points, though obviously you're in a bit of trouble vs podded marines or other deep striking threats.

Voidraven5829 wrote:Im of.the opinion that the IW relics are good as gimmicks but lack any actual power beside the 2+ armor set, and even that is a little overcosted for what it does. I don't think a 1/3 chance of gaining a wound back a turn is that great of an extra benefit when most of the time I lose my lord in one round of shooting and combat. The IWND just, and the rest of the relics and the majority of warlord traits just feel like missed opportunities all around, and not very fluffy or strong.

The armour is the same as the one in crimson slaughter and the only way to get a 2+. Given that you're probably only taking 1 character that needs a relic, only having 1 good one doesn't really seem like that much of a restriction to me. Slap the armour on a lord or prince and job done. 10 points for IWND isn't such a bad deal and the opportunity to buy artificer armour for a Tz prince is worth the price regardless of any other bonus.

Huh, I had completely forgotten about Telepathy being usable for CSM, shows how much I play CSM or use psykers in general.

Psykers were one of the few things Chaos Marines arguably had over Loyalists, even before Traitor Legions came out. The ability to get generic ML 3 Sorcerers instead of Librarians capped at ML 2, as well as the ability to re-roll failed tests via Spell Familiar is one of the main reasons the Cabal was a popular formation for CSM even when Black Legion had to pay for Veterans of the Long War.

Geomortis and Heretek are probably going to be the most important disciplines for Iron Warriors IMO (though the former one has to deal with the ITC ban on Worldwrithe), the former mostly to fish for Ignore Cover on your Vindicators, the latter for a mix of support and anti-tank. Ectomancy has its uses too as usual as the ability to shunt Vindicators around could be potentially hilarious too.

What does everyone think about using the Munitorum armored containers as support for Havocs and Obliterators? Depending on how they're organized and laid out on the field, you could get some serious mileage out of all the benefits for not a huge points investment.
Oblits hanging near fire barrels get to use a torrent heavy flamer! How cool is THAT? Autocannon havocs that already have tank hunter next to ammo caches are now even deadlier!
What do you guys say?

Voidraven5829 wrote:
What does everyone think about using the Munitorum armored containers as support for Havocs and Obliterators? Depending on how they're organized and laid out on the field, you could get some serious mileage out of all the benefits for not a huge points investment.
Oblits hanging near fire barrels get to use a torrent heavy flamer! How cool is THAT? Autocannon havocs that already have tank hunter next to ammo caches are now even deadlier!
What do you guys say?

Oh that is just dastardly.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Voidraven5829 wrote:
What does everyone think about using the Munitorum armored containers as support for Havocs and Obliterators? Depending on how they're organized and laid out on the field, you could get some serious mileage out of all the benefits for not a huge points investment.
Oblits hanging near fire barrels get to use a torrent heavy flamer! How cool is THAT? Autocannon havocs that already have tank hunter next to ammo caches are now even deadlier!
What do you guys say?

Oh that is just dastardly.

There is a clear synergy. Around me fortifications are next to never used, so it presents an opportunity for a distinctive army. With such a clear emphasis on fortifications for our army we really need to do a full fortification write up on how to make the most of the different fortifications. Things like how best to lay out tank traps and such to keep drop pods, knights, and assault vehicles back from our fortifications and troops to extend their longevity.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Voidraven5829 wrote:
What does everyone think about using the Munitorum armored containers as support for Havocs and Obliterators? Depending on how they're organized and laid out on the field, you could get some serious mileage out of all the benefits for not a huge points investment.
Oblits hanging near fire barrels get to use a torrent heavy flamer! How cool is THAT? Autocannon havocs that already have tank hunter next to ammo caches are now even deadlier!
What do you guys say?

Oh that is just dastardly.

There is a clear synergy. Around me fortifications are next to never used, so it presents an opportunity for a distinctive army. With such a clear emphasis on fortifications for our army we really need to do a full fortification write up on how to make the most of the different fortifications. Things like how best to lay out tank traps and such to keep drop pods, knights, and assault vehicles back from our fortifications and troops to extend their longevity.

Tank traps are a great idea for deterring pods! I hadn't thought of that before. Especially if they keep the FAQ ruling that the doors count as part of the model, thats a good way to keep them completely out of your deployment zone!

Voidraven5829 wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Voidraven5829 wrote:
What does everyone think about using the Munitorum armored containers as support for Havocs and Obliterators? Depending on how they're organized and laid out on the field, you could get some serious mileage out of all the benefits for not a huge points investment.
Oblits hanging near fire barrels get to use a torrent heavy flamer! How cool is THAT? Autocannon havocs that already have tank hunter next to ammo caches are now even deadlier!
What do you guys say?

Oh that is just dastardly.

There is a clear synergy. Around me fortifications are next to never used, so it presents an opportunity for a distinctive army. With such a clear emphasis on fortifications for our army we really need to do a full fortification write up on how to make the most of the different fortifications. Things like how best to lay out tank traps and such to keep drop pods, knights, and assault vehicles back from our fortifications and troops to extend their longevity.

Tank traps are a great idea for deterring pods! I hadn't thought of that before. Especially if they keep the FAQ ruling that the doors count as part of the model, thats a good way to keep them completely out of your deployment zone!

For almost every fortification you can buy 3 sets of 6" bands. We need someone to do some pictures but placing your main fortification such that nothing can really come in DS behind them into your deployment zone and then laying out tank traps the maximum distance to bubble wrap the fortification and maximize the setback of your stand-off zone.

Has anyone tried making their own fortress yet? Like, using all 3 fortification slots for the Grand Battalion.
I think I came up with what I wanna use. For the cost of about 1.5 land raiders, i have:
Wall of martyrs bunker with escape hatch and a comms unit,
X2 Vengeance weapons batteries with battle canons
X2 Munitorum shipping crates.

I'm thinking of having the bunker almost front and center, maybe behind a LOS blocking terrain piece and setting up the escape hatch on the other side if the terrain and then having the shipping containers flanking that with some Autocannon havocs sitting on top of the containers for high ground as well as fitting an ammo cache up there for accuracy, while spreading other ammo caches and the promethium barrels strategically. The battle cannons would probably be placed near the sode table edges to potentially block flanking units while maintaining channels of fire.
With all that, if i had room i may add tank traps wherever i can to deter drop pods and assault transports from getting too close to any of my dudes.

What do you think? I did the math, and i can get a fire redoubt with 2 battle cannons instead of the 2 vengeance batteries and the martyrs bunker for only 5 points less, but i feel doing that would limit the modular-ity of having all separate buildings.

Oblits are still garbage. They suffer from everything terminators suffer from, are just as tough and still get doubled out by anything strength 8 or better. Oh and that bs 6+ fnp you won't get....

How can Obliterators still be garbage with all the free bonuses they got?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How can Obliterators still be garbage with all the free bonuses they got?

Its because without T5, having 2 wounds doesn't mean much... so you have a 70pt model that dies just as easily as a 30pt model. The free bonuses would be great, IF your model survives long enough to do anything. The best scenario any of us can come up with using Obliterators is to embed them in a fortification to make them more survivable or to fill up a CAD with 6 individual Obliterators as all 6 of your Troop slots and just have so many small units your opponent will inevitably waste firepower by only being able to take them out one at a time.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How can Obliterators still be garbage with all the free bonuses they got?

Its because without T5, having 2 wounds doesn't mean much... so you have a 70pt model that dies just as easily as a 30pt model. The free bonuses would be great, IF your model survives long enough to do anything. The best scenario any of us can come up with using Obliterators is to embed them in a fortification to make them more survivable or to fill up a CAD with 6 individual Obliterators as all 6 of your Troop slots and just have so many small units your opponent will inevitably waste firepower by only being able to take them out one at a time.

Thats how exactly a IW CAD should be, MSU Oblits spread out all over the deployment zone. Opponent will either forced to go after them individually or ignore them. A min CAD of 6 oblits and a sorcerer is less them 500 pts, you have 1350 pts to bring something more dangerous. The oblits are cheap and could be a great distraction that packs a good punch.

It works decently well, but it certainly isn't using the unit in its conventional way. They are still very likely to die relative to their point costs. You're ultimately hedging a bet that your opponent isn't taking a similar MSU approach.

I think they Obliterator CAD compliment a fortified Grand Company by giving hard hitting skirmishes, that can provide deep striking mobility to an otherwise static force.

I've just run 6 oblits. Reserved them all. Half worked pretty well as drop board controlsLanding on objectives, reasonably far away from other stuff and pew pewing. the other half went in danger close to take out enemy vehicles. Worked fine.
Passed 3 fnps too. haaa

Regarding the whole "building a giant castle" idea for Iron Warriors...

...thoughts on running the Brimstone Conflagration as an allied formation for such an army, as ersatz landmines/an insane bubblewrap of doom. You get a ghettoish Warp Charge battery and mobile cover for the rest of your force, as well as the ability to threaten any "light MSU" force; you can practically shut down Reavers, Lictorshame, or Subterranean Uprisings with this formation.

I would advocate adding a Tyranid Sporefield formation for fluffy gaks and giggles, but ITC bans CtA and it's not common otherwise.