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So we've had Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero....what's next.

Both boxes were vehicles to release plastic variants of Heresy era power armour. The MkIV and III respectively, with Cataphractii and Tartatros armour getting included too.

Surely MkVI would be the next most popular armour mark to need a plastic release? So a Raven Guard release? Or maybe a MkV box set? Or both?

As far as I'm aware we haven't had any rumours on this yet, but it's fun to speculate. So what do people think will be in the next one..if indeed we get one.

Probably siege of terra.

I'd love to see an Istvaan III set, but the logistics of it make that difficult.

I'd love to see The Iron Cage done.

Remember Warmaster (1993)? The White Dwarf "two-player board game that recreates the Emperor's attack on Horus's battle barge at the end of the Battle for Earth."
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/11648/warmaster

Go big, or go home. Just say'n.

I like the idea of the Warmaster game, and the Siege of Terra, personally though I can see them breaking that down into both several novels and thus the opportunity for several different games.

IMO, these boxes are made purely to put out new marks of armor that will get new players into 30k and current players spend more money on new tacticals. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, since that's exactly what I did. So the next box will either be Mk II, Mk V, or Mk VI.

If it is Mk VI, the two main legions that used that armor during the HH were Raven Guard and Alpha Legion. So I would assume the box set would be some shadow war conflict that they fought each other in. If anyone knows of a specific conflict say so, as I do not.

Mk V could be literally any legion during the middle of the HH and any battle past Istvaan V. Lots of options. Maybe siege of Terra? Though probably not yet, as GW will want to save that box until the end of these boxed sets.

Mk II I'm not sure of. What legions used a lot of that armor? I think I remember reading that DA had a lot of Mk II. Maybe the WE too? Not sure

So based on this, I think Mk VI is the most likely candidate for the next box, with Alphas facing off against RG. Maybe they'll put in some new plastic bikes too, as that would fit the type of warfare used by both legions.

I think a Deliverance game would be awesome. Mk6 armored Ravenwing and Alpha Legion. Could get an Assault Squad, 20 Tacs, and maybe a Javelin and Bike squad.

My ideal box would contain:
MKVI Power Armour x30
MKVI Power Armour with Jump Packs x10
Plastic Javelin Speeder
Some sort of character.

Not sure if MKVI would be GW's first choice seeing as the armour already comes with regular tac squads and it is pretty easy to make a small squad out of them as is.

My bet would be either MKII or MKV as they would be something fairly new. I'd also love to see some vehicles in plastic and assault squads.

Chances are we could see some other factions sneak into the sets as with the custodes and SoS. Maybe some more plastic admech?

To get into truly wishlisting territory I think some old fashioned IG units would be cool. A 10-man set of retro guardsmen would be awesome!

"Fall of angels" maybe???
A box that comes with Heresy era Blood angels and a wounded Sanguinus

Deathguard liked mk2.

Simple for them to keep working and rugged.

Maybe that battle of phill thing will be a thing, and will be mk2 armoured breachers and such.

though, they might decide since the main two armour looks are out, they just will repackage and sell what they've got. Since mk3 is really just up armoured and up detailed mark 2.

 Freytag93 wrote:
IMO, these boxes are made purely to put out new marks of armor that will get new players into 30k and current players spend more money on new tacticals..

IMO, they are both good games, too. It's worth repeating.

 Gobbla wrote:

 Freytag93 wrote:
IMO, these boxes are made purely to put out new marks of armor that will get new players into 30k and current players spend more money on new tacticals..

IMO, they are both good games, too. It's worth repeating.

They contain games, too, ye blind power armour hungry bats! (though it is true that many only buy them for the miniatures, sadly)

I'm personally very enamored by Calth's system, but sadly Prospero has left me cold thus far (having played dozens of BaC matches and several of BoP). It is kind of sad to see they couldn't just add to a relatively easily modifiable base and give it more depth. If Prospero's movement mechanic wasn't so utterly punishing and the game actually felt more tactical instead of "well crud I rolled badly and am now wrecked" -rolloff, I might enjoy it a bit more. The psychic system is fun though, might rip it to my games of Calth

Compared to Calth, in that game I almost always feel like I've accomplished something when things go right: well-timed and prioritized moves, special cards that I have held in my hand for the entire game until they can be unleashed in a decisive blow when stars align, a sacrificed unit here and there that actually held my line as expected and so forth. The tactical depth offered by its simple mechanics is pretty amazing. Asymmetrical lines of fire, different weapons that are all useful in some manner, actual advantage from breaking and reforming units on the battlefield, tense maps with interesting layouts, the absolute gem of alternating actions and the power to strip those points away with humble bolters... Beautiful, just beautiful. Also considering how tight the system is (our games are usually nigh-annihilating attrition wars of mutually assured destruction with equally skilled players and curb-stompy massacres if one is better than the other), I think it was developed much more as a game than Prospero was (more weight on decisions, less forgiving unit placement, line of sight that actually matters, offence-orientated mechanics that encourage being proactive and agressive, very clear victory conditions that both players must constantly strive towards...). IDK, Prospero's rules feel like a watered down Calth to me, like someone went "how about we remove that tense tactical decision making that is the core gameplay element and add more random dice rolling" and then called it a day. It feels more beer'n'pretzels than I want my games to feel. How I'd hope to see more official material for BaC, sigh.

Anyhoo, on topic, I'd personally like to see some Isstvanian action. Bunker assaults, perhaps? Count the Seven, loyalists!

Iron Warriors vs Imperial Fists

Neither Legion has had much love lately, and I think it would be pretty great to see a boxed game centered around fortications.

Of course, both Legions will be at the Siege of Terra...

Sherrypie wrote:

 Gobbla wrote:

 Freytag93 wrote:
IMO, these boxes are made purely to put out new marks of armor that will get new players into 30k and current players spend more money on new tacticals..

IMO, they are both good games, too. It's worth repeating.

They contain games, too, ye blind power armour hungry bats! (though it is true that many only buy them for the miniatures, sadly)

Wait... there was a game in the box too? I wondered what all that extra cardboard was

 Freytag93 wrote:

Sherrypie wrote:

 Gobbla wrote:

 Freytag93 wrote:
IMO, these boxes are made purely to put out new marks of armor that will get new players into 30k and current players spend more money on new tacticals..

IMO, they are both good games, too. It's worth repeating.

They contain games, too, ye blind power armour hungry bats! (though it is true that many only buy them for the miniatures, sadly)

Wait... there was a game in the box too? I wondered what all that extra cardboard was

Without the folks who bought the boxes for the mini's, there would be no game to ignore (or enjoy). Turns out we are ALL on the same team.

Primarch vs Primarch, both with small retinue.

I am hoping for the MK5 the iconic miniatures is only one version, i would like to see the chaos marine armors without all the chaos gubbins, maybe they can also addres why the traitor backpacks are different from the loyals. MK6 came only late in the war if i remember, or was that one of the plot points in the book Mechanicum?

I'd love an Mk2 box based around Caliban and the Fallen vs the Loyalists.

Whatever the armor mk, I hope if there is a next box it contains either assault marines, outrider bikes, or both.

Sherrypie wrote:

 Gobbla wrote:

 Freytag93 wrote:
IMO, these boxes are made purely to put out new marks of armor that will get new players into 30k and current players spend more money on new tacticals..

IMO, they are both good games, too. It's worth repeating.

They contain games, too, ye blind power armour hungry bats! (though it is true that many only buy them for the miniatures, sadly)

I'm personally very enamored by Calth's system, but sadly Prospero has left me cold thus far (having played dozens of BaC matches and several of BoP). It is kind of sad to see they couldn't just add to a relatively easily modifiable base and give it more depth. If Prospero's movement mechanic wasn't so utterly punishing and the game actually felt more tactical instead of "well crud I rolled badly and am now wrecked" -rolloff, I might enjoy it a bit more. The psychic system is fun though, might rip it to my games of Calth

Compared to Calth, in that game I almost always feel like I've accomplished something when things go right: well-timed and prioritized moves, special cards that I have held in my hand for the entire game until they can be unleashed in a decisive blow when stars align, a sacrificed unit here and there that actually held my line as expected and so forth. The tactical depth offered by its simple mechanics is pretty amazing. Asymmetrical lines of fire, different weapons that are all useful in some manner, actual advantage from breaking and reforming units on the battlefield, tense maps with interesting layouts, the absolute gem of alternating actions and the power to strip those points away with humble bolters... Beautiful, just beautiful. Also considering how tight the system is (our games are usually nigh-annihilating attrition wars of mutually assured destruction with equally skilled players and curb-stompy massacres if one is better than the other), I think it was developed much more as a game than Prospero was (more weight on decisions, less forgiving unit placement, line of sight that actually matters, offence-orientated mechanics that encourage being proactive and agressive, very clear victory conditions that both players must constantly strive towards...). IDK, Prospero's rules feel like a watered down Calth to me, like someone went "how about we remove that tense tactical decision making that is the core gameplay element and add more random dice rolling" and then called it a day. It feels more beer'n'pretzels than I want my games to feel. How I'd hope to see more official material for BaC, sigh.

Anyhoo, on topic, I'd personally like to see some Isstvanian action. Bunker assaults, perhaps? Count the Seven, loyalists!

Great description of Calth! A little harsh when it comes to Prospero.

Despite the scale and subject matter, they are VERY different in design. Calth has a skirmish level system that drives the game. Prospero has abstract game functions that make the game work. To illustrate the difference, I like Calth more because I like games that more closely approximate 40K combat in a board game (Space Hulk, Advanced Space Crusade). My Buddy likes games that play more like boardgames than skirmish games (Lost Patrol, Horus Heresy). He loved Prospero. Lot's of decisions, card-driven psychics, chess-like movement, simple combat. Different strokes for different folks.

 Gobbla wrote:

Sherrypie wrote:

 Gobbla wrote:

 Freytag93 wrote:
IMO, these boxes are made purely to put out new marks of armor that will get new players into 30k and current players spend more money on new tacticals..

IMO, they are both good games, too. It's worth repeating.

They contain games, too, ye blind power armour hungry bats! (though it is true that many only buy them for the miniatures, sadly)

I'm personally very enamored by Calth's system, but sadly Prospero has left me cold thus far (having played dozens of BaC matches and several of BoP). It is kind of sad to see they couldn't just add to a relatively easily modifiable base and give it more depth. If Prospero's movement mechanic wasn't so utterly punishing and the game actually felt more tactical instead of "well crud I rolled badly and am now wrecked" -rolloff, I might enjoy it a bit more. The psychic system is fun though, might rip it to my games of Calth

Compared to Calth, in that game I almost always feel like I've accomplished something when things go right: well-timed and prioritized moves, special cards that I have held in my hand for the entire game until they can be unleashed in a decisive blow when stars align, a sacrificed unit here and there that actually held my line as expected and so forth. The tactical depth offered by its simple mechanics is pretty amazing. Asymmetrical lines of fire, different weapons that are all useful in some manner, actual advantage from breaking and reforming units on the battlefield, tense maps with interesting layouts, the absolute gem of alternating actions and the power to strip those points away with humble bolters... Beautiful, just beautiful. Also considering how tight the system is (our games are usually nigh-annihilating attrition wars of mutually assured destruction with equally skilled players and curb-stompy massacres if one is better than the other), I think it was developed much more as a game than Prospero was (more weight on decisions, less forgiving unit placement, line of sight that actually matters, offence-orientated mechanics that encourage being proactive and agressive, very clear victory conditions that both players must constantly strive towards...). IDK, Prospero's rules feel like a watered down Calth to me, like someone went "how about we remove that tense tactical decision making that is the core gameplay element and add more random dice rolling" and then called it a day. It feels more beer'n'pretzels than I want my games to feel. How I'd hope to see more official material for BaC, sigh.

Anyhoo, on topic, I'd personally like to see some Isstvanian action. Bunker assaults, perhaps? Count the Seven, loyalists!

Great description of Calth! A little harsh when it comes to Prospero.

Despite the scale and subject matter, they are VERY different in design. Calth has a skirmish level system that drives the game. Prospero has abstract game functions that make the game work. To illustrate the difference, I like Calth more because I like games that more closely approximate 40K combat in a board game (Space Hulk, Advanced Space Crusade). My Buddy likes games that play more like boardgames than skirmish games (Lost Patrol, Horus Heresy). He loved Prospero. Lot's of decisions, card-driven psychics, chess-like movement, simple combat. Different strokes for different folks.

This post might get a bit off-topic as it rambles on the two games released, but ahoy we go.

Yes, that is very true. It is quite clear that they are intended to work towards different goals, which is all fine and dandy by itself, it just bothers me that Prospero feels less meaty (for my tastes) in those all-important in-game decisions that elevate the game to something truly enjoyable. Having now played half a dozen matches more than during my previous write-up, I can concede that the game gets better as its size increases. This gives more meaning to obstructions (of which there should be like twice the amount, dangit!), Short Range is an actual factor once in a while and the potential teleport shenanigans with psychic powers start to matter a lot more. I very much enjoyed the mission 3, Hunters hunted, to pick an example, even if it suffers from the next point like all the other. The problem remains, though, that barring some outrageous rolling, the missions are usually kinda heavily inclined towards one side. And usually that is the Loyalists' side, with either a ton of extra troops or too easy objectives. This wouldn't be so problematic, if other imbalance factors were ironed out a bit better. As it stands, it doesn't feel to me like the game offers a fair(ish) chance for both sides to pull through by clever play. It could be argued that since the Thousand Sons are losing the war, they should be at a disadvantage most of the time, but that does make a pretty dull setup for a game if the outcome between equally skilled players is mostly known in advance barring some lucky dice rolls. The game is not a trainwreck, though, and I'd still recommend it if the setting is inspiring and this type of skirmishing feels like it's up your alley.

Some personal observations:

- Terminators get shot to pieces with about anything. Why do they only have Stamina 2? For it to be possible, that a normal legionnaire can critically punch anyone's head off? Custodes and characters have more, so no. The terminators are usually valued about as highly as two ordinary troopers, but are in no way their worth in offencive capabilities. Barely in defence, either, as they get shot to death almost as easily by any amount of shooting that throws more than one dice. My fix: Stamina 3 or a gradual decrease in successive defence rolls (Like a d10, d8 and a d6 against ). Maybe even make it so that they never go below d8? Potentially interesting, if a tad powerful.

- Supporting Fire with bolters is pretty damn powerful, as it often alters the whole ranking line up and makes massed tacticals a pretty powerful asset. I cannot even count the number of times I've rolled from 1 vs 5 to 6 vs 5 and critted those terminators down. Which brings up the previous point, the most durable personal protection in the galaxy really needs a fix.

- The Space Wolves, who usually are anyway at an advantage in the mission line ups, can punch through armour by equaling it in close combat, not by exceeding it. And this does carry on to other models in the unit too. *deep grumbling sigh* Eargh. Such Guardian Spear, much murder, very wow. This is very, very powerful in a system like this, especially with the highly unforgiving movement system that can basically tie up almost every important target in the enemy force and prevent them from moving. Yes, with correct psychic powers the Thousand Sons player can mitigate this somewhat, but I found that very often this means that lone fighting pairs of Wolves can curbstomp unwary terminators merely by kicking them in the face before they can retaliate. Combine this with the fact, that Wolves win most of the Initiatives (as they win ties) if Ahriman is not present, and you can pretty much kiss your elites good bye. Compare this to Calth, where moving to your enemy in such a tie up move was more often than not lethal as you ran into IMMEDIATE counter and could very likely lose your squad.

- The line of sight is as basic as it gets. There is almost no worth to obstructions in most cases (of course there is, but not nearly enough) as you can shoot at seemingly noneuclidian angles at the guys who, it turns out, really weren't behind that corner or anything. Calth had a clean, elegant answer to this: if it's a direct shot from middle to middle, full effect. If not, but some visibility, reduced effect. Seriously, I guess most of my numerous gripes here would vanish if the positioning regarding cover had a bigger effect on the outcome of battle. You know, like in ANY real battle ever. As a fix I propose something along the lines of bumped up defence dice for those shot at, makes it harder but not impossible to get those all-important criticals. Another issue I have with it is that you can shoot through your own units willy-nilly, as LoS only stops at zones occupied by enemy models. Once again, this is very well implemented in Calth, where firing through your own guys makes the shot Obscured.

- The criticals. Okay, this is a minor gripe on a simple system, but the "double damage for crits" is boring. In Calth, every weapon had a unique effect on crits and none were strictly better than others. In this case it is true that some differentation happens before that (dice size, flamer rules, bolter rerolls, dual wielded lightning claws...), but the effect on gameplay is very limited beyond firing away and hoping for the best. In the very statistically orientated world of Calth, one often tried to combine his men in such a fashion as to make most use of the criticals as tactical assets and get so many dice in there that it was very likely to happen. I need a point off those guys? Get at least 6 bolter shots in their direction. I need to punch a termie in the face? You two, charge with the sergeant armed with the mighty power fist! And that termie (with Stamina 3) was quite literally unkillable by a normal legionnaire without big guns, btw

- I enjoy the psychic phase a lot. The different powers are quite well fitting to the game and produce very much of the depth the game has, which is a bit unfortunate because they are also very very random. The ones that affect movement and firing lines are those I find matter the most, along with Hyper regeneration, as it ought to be. There might be perhaps one too many "enumeration phase ends now" cards in the decks, as it is somewhat rare to get more than one successful power to go off on a turn. Not necessarily that bad, as it forces prioritizing from the player, but it cuts some edge from the Loyalists card that gets 3 Willpower instead of 1 but lets the Sons try an extra power this turn as they might never even get to the second one. And so forth.

- The missions show very much lost potential in their design. Yes, this game is tactically lighter than Calth and its ilk, but some things are just glaring at me as I read them:

1) The first mission pits some tacticals against each other, with a nice addition of a Sister Superior and Tartaros sergeant... and Geigor. My mind boggles as to why he is there. Once more, barring some very succesful warp buggery the Thousand Sons are doomed as this murdertrain of a man simply rips through them nigh-invulnerable due to his Stamina 4. And unlike Calth, where every mission had a strict timelimit, in this case the poor defenders of Tizca cannot even take solace in the fact that they have delayed their enemy (thus winning by stalling enough time). No, they have to kill every last one of the invaders. Including the technoviking from Hell. Just no. The size of the battlefield is also too small to do justice to the open areas fought over in the city by highlighting the issues with the movement system. If there was a lull in the beginning, like one board tile more, so that the forces wouldn't immediately be at each others faces, this could do much better.

2) The Custodes mission is actually pretty great. The elite behaves like they ought to, killing legionnaires left and right if they don't sit behind cover (of which there should be a whole lot more, dangit!).

3) Hunters hunted is also pretty rewarding. I played it through several times and even though I couldn't even once pull a win with the termies, it was tactically intriquing every time. This map shows very well how this is a game of fighting in the open, as the massed Loyalist fire can absolutely destroy Ahriman's little strike force if they aren't protected by all sorts of nonsense (the best kind of nonsense) like Kine Shields and Shrouding. Mm-mmh, Shrouding, mighty fine that one. I currently think that this one is pretty much unwinnable by the Thousand Sons if the Loyalist knows what he's doing, as this one does have a time limit and the movement system hamstrings the terminators from making any real advances. Merely throwing singular bodies at them is pretty much enough to stop them in their tracks while the sisters move further to safety, all the while shooting with bolters and plinking the termies down. This, however, might be very different with suitably mobile psychic powers like Wings of Fire that allows the lightning claw monsters to jump on top of the sisters and rip them apart. Even Surge of Rapidity, I'd say. The titan mechanic is fun, I just wish it would eradicate obstructions as it shoots. Could be a bit bigger effect too, now it is too easy to dodge

4) Kine wall defence. Well. Talk about missed potential. A mission completely dependant on a single model that can be shielded by both Geigor and a d10-armoured Custodes with a shield until the breach? Did I mention the Stamina 4 on the Wolf? Urgh. I have managed to get both sides to win this, but it was never too satisfying. The first two turns of marching to the shield wall are horribly, horribly underused. Why not have any interaction there? A small diversion from the Thousand Sons, a bit of scenery to make the Loyalist ponder a bit about his moves instead of simply putting a Custodes in every unit to soak fire and marching to the shield as a big blob? Even some defensive turrets they could try to either avoid or overrun? You know, something that creates interaction between the players beyond a completely arbitrary dice roll on "bombardments"? The situation at the breach is actually pretty similiar: heaviest hitters surge in, defenders throw everything in small increments (lest they lose too many men they can't afford in the first swings) in their way and blast away with everything they have to the scrap. Beyond some Kine Shield -psyching, there isn't too much to do except watch dice fall. Some positioning, certainly, but the space is once again a bit limited. Why not make the board a tile or two bigger, so that the defenders could actually create killing zones and deeper defence lines like the bloody supersoldiers they are are supposed to? And since there is once again no time limit but a "kill 'em all" order, options for varying strategies are very limited. The Loyalists either punch through and supermurder everyone in their way or get shot at the hole and are shut out long before the terminators, that the Sons are supposed to have, ever arrive. Why not use them as the distraction outside? While the tacticals inside are rushing to defence, why not drop some suicide teleporters outside the shield at the same time? Puts some pressure on both sides and would be a lot better, I'd wager. Still, I must say I like the actual situation described here very much as a mission brief.

I haven't tried the last two missions yet, but they could very much be the positively shining stars of this gander. Especially the Labyrinth Maze seems interesting, with the Thousand Sons deploying forces as needed and selected by the player while the Loyalists rampage through. Looking forward to that.

Whew. Maybe that might provoke some thoughts