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 Pouncey wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
No.

I'm the kind who moves my Battle Sisters Squads within charge range of mobs of Ork Boyz, intending to rapid-fire into them when they crest the hill that is blocking my line of sight, because on occasion I forget to treat this game as "turn based" instead of "real time".

I see the problem now. HF Rets in Immolators will sort that for you. Also everything in Immolators. Especially Dominions.

PS: Immolators.

Generally I got the idea that Immolators are important when you mentioned a standard list having up to 12 of them.

Any vehicle you include 12 of is god damned important beyond the point of simply requiring back-ups. At that point you're having back-ups for your back-ups' back-ups. Though I do recall that the intention is that they will simply provide mobile LOS-blocking terrain to clog the battlefield with so many tanks the enemy can't shoot you.

As such, my next purchase for my army, which I will order at the same time I buy the new Codex, will be a veritable crapload of Immolators,because I only have 2 or 3 right now and I run my list as footsloggers. I will also purchase a sizable number of Heavy Flamer models.

Yes, I do recognize I have been playing the army ENTIRELY wrong, hence my plan to correct it.

Any other suggestions? I'm not attached enough to Exorcists to insist on using them if they're not needed.

The thing about Exorcists is, if they roll hot they are amazing, they are long range, S81 ap1 etc.., but they have the potential to suck. I know many that live by them and take 6, and I know some that hate them (including me)

I honestly like my 5 Units of Scouting Immolators with Ignore cover Melta guns and Rending HB/HF

Also depending on your meta, if you are facing MSU then Exorcists arent as good, they shine at Long range elite fights. If you are facing Necrons or Tau, I would take them. (at least from my experience)

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The thing about Exorcists is, if they roll hot they are amazing, they are long range, S81 ap1 etc.., but they have the potential to suck. I know many that live by them and take 6, and I know some that hate them (including me)

I honestly like my 5 Units of Scouting Immolators with Ignore cover Melta guns and Rending HB/HF

Also depending on your meta, if you are facing MSU then Exorcists arent as good, they shine at Long range elite fights. If you are facing Necrons or Tau, I would take them. (at least from my experience)

I play against only one person due to my personal circumstances, and she rarely changes her list, so the difference between "designing my list for my local meta" and "list tailoring to defeat a particular opponent's specific list" is effectively zero. As such, I have, erm, moral issues with choosing units based on my local meta, which I understand do not apply to anyone else.

I will simply eschew the Exorcists because they probably won't be useful and I like neither the model nor the concept, anyways.

Plus, I've always been wanting a reason to use Immolators. I like the idea of an APC with a turret weapon.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The thing about Exorcists is, if they roll hot they are amazing, they are long range, S81 ap1 etc.., but they have the potential to suck. I know many that live by them and take 6, and I know some that hate them (including me)

I honestly like my 5 Units of Scouting Immolators with Ignore cover Melta guns and Rending HB/HF

Also depending on your meta, if you are facing MSU then Exorcists arent as good, they shine at Long range elite fights. If you are facing Necrons or Tau, I would take them. (at least from my experience)

I play against only one person due to my personal circumstances, and she rarely changes her list, so the difference between "designing my list for my local meta" and "list tailoring to defeat a particular opponent's specific list" is effectively zero. As such, I have, erm, moral issues with choosing units based on my local meta, which I understand do not apply to anyone else.

I will simply eschew the Exorcists because they probably won't be useful and I like neither the model nor the concept, anyways.

Plus, I've always been wanting a reason to use Immolators. I like the idea of an APC with a turret weapon.

There is a difference in list tailor for 1 person and for a local meta, if your meta had 9-12 players and ALL of them brought Knights you will bring Anti knight, or if they all bring Fliers, your would bring AA.

But sense you play against 1 person mostly that must be hard to not list tailor :( (I dont mean on purpose but self-conscientiously)

 Pouncey wrote:
Any other suggestions?

Be aware that no matter how "optimal" you make your Sisters, there's stuff they can only beat on a really good day. MSU mech Sisters (i.e. based around min squads with 2 Meltaguns in TLMM Immos) hurt more lists than footslogging armies and have fewer hard counters, but they're still a light mech army, so there are still hard counters.

Beyond that, bring 6 Dominions, like dracpanzer said, and put a Laud Hailer on a couple of their Immos. These are your backbone, and they are disgustingly awesome. You'll need 4 HFs max, 24+ Meltaguns, although they're easy enough to convert from boltguns using net bitz. Also get a Priest, or convert one - he'll be leading the second CAD. Veridyan is a good bet if you can fit her in, so you can snipe with Meltaguns - if not just take another Priest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Also depending on your meta, if you are facing MSU then Exorcists arent as good, they shine at Long range elite fights. If you are facing Necrons or Tau, I would take them. (at least from my experience)

Pretty much this. Exorcists are all but worthless against the likes of Genestealer Cults - at best you'll kill 6 of my dudes, and I'll either Summon more or RttS and get most of them back.

One other thing that might be worth a look now that Immos can be taken as FA - Sisters of Silence. Two Flamers, three Greatblades, and a big massive anti-psyker bubble jumping out in midfield. Could be useful. Not as useful as a Knight though.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
There is a difference in list tailor for 1 person and for a local meta, if your meta had 9-12 players and ALL of them brought Knights you will bring Anti knight, or if they all bring Fliers, your would bring AA.

But sense you play against 1 person mostly that must be hard to not list tailor :( (I dont mean on purpose but self-conscientiously)

I am aware of the difference, yes.

Are you aware of the difference between "most people" and "this one guy"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Any other suggestions?

Be aware that no matter how "optimal" you make your Sisters, there's stuff they can only beat on a really good day. MSU mech Sisters (i.e. based around min squads with 2 Meltaguns in TLMM Immos) hurt more lists than footslogging armies and have fewer hard counters, but they're still a light mech army, so there are still hard counters.

Beyond that, bring 6 Dominions, like dracpanzer said, and put a Laud Hailer on a couple of their Immos. These are your backbone, and they are disgustingly awesome. You'll need 4 HFs max, 24+ Meltaguns, although they're easy enough to convert from boltguns using net bitz. Also get a Priest, or convert one - he'll be leading the second CAD. Veridyan is a good bet if you can fit her in, so you can snipe with Meltaguns - if not just take another Priest.

I would prefer winning half of the time, actually, not almost all the time. That way my opponent and I both get to share the fun of winning.

I would actually make my list deliberately less powerful if it were winning too much.

Also, erm, I might decide to swap half of the meltaguns for flamers. My opponent doesn't bring a lot of vehicles.

If you're going to ask why only half, consider the implications of what I just said in this post, and that "not a lot" does not, in fact, mean "none."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:
One other thing that might be worth a look now that Immos can be taken as FA - Sisters of Silence. Two Flamers, three Greatblades, and a big massive anti-psyker bubble jumping out in midfield. Could be useful. Not as useful as a Knight though.

Uhh, I play Sisters of Battle, not Sisters of Silence. To me there's an important difference, but I understand if you don't agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Any other suggestions?

Be aware that no matter how "optimal" you make your Sisters, there's stuff they can only beat on a really good day. MSU mech Sisters (i.e. based around min squads with 2 Meltaguns in TLMM Immos) hurt more lists than footslogging armies and have fewer hard counters, but they're still a light mech army, so there are still hard counters.

Beyond that, bring 6 Dominions, like dracpanzer said, and put a Laud Hailer on a couple of their Immos. These are your backbone, and they are disgustingly awesome. You'll need 4 HFs max, 24+ Meltaguns, although they're easy enough to convert from boltguns using net bitz. Also get a Priest, or convert one - he'll be leading the second CAD. Veridyan is a good bet if you can fit her in, so you can snipe with Meltaguns - if not just take another Priest.

Also, uh, my Google skills are sufficient to research netlists if I wanted to go that route. I don't.

 Pouncey wrote:

I would prefer winning half of the time, actually, not almost all the time. That way my opponent and I both get to share the fun of winning.

I would actually make my list deliberately less powerful if it were winning too much.

Also, erm, I might decide to swap half of the meltaguns for flamers. My opponent doesn't bring a lot of vehicles.

If you're going to ask why only half, consider the implications of what I just said in this post, and that "not a lot" does not, in fact, mean "none."

All good - these are general tips rather than specific ones. Do what works for you. If you're going to swap the Meltas though, take a Flamer/ HF instead of just two Flamers. You only save 5pts but the HF is worth it. Leave the Doms with their Meltas though.

Dropping some Dominions would make the list less powerful and give you space for Exorcists, if that's your wont.

The Sisters of Silence are a utility thing not a fluff thing. They are a great way to make a 650pt Magnus leave the table while he's flying around.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
There is a difference in list tailor for 1 person and for a local meta, if your meta had 9-12 players and ALL of them brought Knights you will bring Anti knight, or if they all bring Fliers, your would bring AA.

But sense you play against 1 person mostly that must be hard to not list tailor :( (I dont mean on purpose but self-conscientiously)

I am aware of the difference, yes.

Are you aware of the difference between "most people" and "this one guy"?

Well before you explain you only play with 1 person, I didnt know that before hand so....... now I know, you just said it in a way that i "read your comment as" I "told you to tailor" your list and was making sure we didnt miss understood each other.

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

I would prefer winning half of the time, actually, not almost all the time. That way my opponent and I both get to share the fun of winning.

I would actually make my list deliberately less powerful if it were winning too much.

Also, erm, I might decide to swap half of the meltaguns for flamers. My opponent doesn't bring a lot of vehicles.

If you're going to ask why only half, consider the implications of what I just said in this post, and that "not a lot" does not, in fact, mean "none."

All good - these are general tips rather than specific ones. Do what works for you. If you're going to swap the Meltas though, take a Flamer/ HF instead of just two Flamers. You only save 5pts but the HF is worth it. Leave the Doms with their Meltas though.

Dropping some Dominions would make the list less powerful and give you space for Exorcists, if that's your wont.

The Sisters of Silence are a utility thing not a fluff thing. They are a great way to make a 650pt Magnus leave the table while he's flying around.

Could use an Assassin too for Anti Psychic

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

I would prefer winning half of the time, actually, not almost all the time. That way my opponent and I both get to share the fun of winning.

I would actually make my list deliberately less powerful if it were winning too much.

Also, erm, I might decide to swap half of the meltaguns for flamers. My opponent doesn't bring a lot of vehicles.

If you're going to ask why only half, consider the implications of what I just said in this post, and that "not a lot" does not, in fact, mean "none."

All good - these are general tips rather than specific ones. Do what works for you. If you're going to swap the Meltas though, take a Flamer/ HF instead of just two Flamers. You only save 5pts but the HF is worth it. Leave the Doms with their Meltas though.

Dropping some Dominions would make the list less powerful and give you space for Exorcists, if that's your wont.

The Sisters of Silence are a utility thing not a fluff thing. They are a great way to make a 650pt Magnus leave the table while he's flying around.

At the point you are specifically listing the numbers of models I need to own to field your proposed build that I use, you are not offering "general tips" anymore. You are instead offering enough information that I could design precisely the list you are thinking of, ask you if I got it right, and be very, very correct in a lot of respects.

:: eyerolls :: Yeah, I consider fluff important enough to design my list around if it's an important enough detail. And my chance of facing ANY Magnus is absolutely zero.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
There is a difference in list tailor for 1 person and for a local meta, if your meta had 9-12 players and ALL of them brought Knights you will bring Anti knight, or if they all bring Fliers, your would bring AA.

But sense you play against 1 person mostly that must be hard to not list tailor :( (I dont mean on purpose but self-conscientiously)

I am aware of the difference, yes.

Are you aware of the difference between "most people" and "this one guy"?

Well before you explain you only play with 1 person, I didnt know that before hand so....... now I know, you just said it in a way that i "read your comment as" I "told you to tailor" your list and was making sure we didnt miss understood each other.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/711762.page#9098151

You could try actually reading the posts you're replying to and quoting on occasion.

Thats when I learned it... thats why I comment on playing against 1 person.......

I gave advice before that comment. Then my 2nd comment was just making sure you knew I wasnt telling you to list tailor and just reinforcing what I previously said in a way to let you know I wasnt trying to tell you to list tailor....

Why are you even arguing to me about it?? Did I offend you?

Edit: Spelling

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Could use an Assassin too for Anti Psychic

Any time you want to just, like, open up Battlescribe and slam out a list for me and post it, I will be happy to roleplay my character picking up a paper army list you wrote, taking out a lighter, and setting the list on fire.

Because I think at this point I haven't made myself clear enough, and that would be my next attempt to make the point about which army I play clear enough for you to understand.

Should that fail, the list of options get progressively more drastic, until I simply abandon the thread entirely rather than face banning for excessive violations of the number 1 rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Thats when I learned it... thats why I comment on playing against 1 person.......

I gave advice before that comment. Then my 2nd comment was just making sure you knew I wasnt telling you to list tailor and just reinforcing what I previously said in a way to let you know I wasnt trying to tell you to list tailor....

Why are you even arguing to me about it?? Did I offend you?

You only offended me by not considering the reality that to someone else, the two things are literally identical, even though to you, they are fundamentally different.

I find that humans generally have problems with the idea that what they see, hear, and think probably is not absolute truth.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Could use an Assassin too for Anti Psychic

Any time you want to just, like, open up Battlescribe and slam out a list for me and post it, I will be happy to roleplay my character picking up a paper army list you wrote, taking out a lighter, and setting the list on fire.

Because I think at this point I haven't made myself clear enough, and that would be my next attempt to make the point about which army I play clear enough for you to understand.

Should that fail, the list of options get progressively more drastic, until I simply abandon the thread entirely rather than face banning for excessive violations of the number 1 rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Thats when I learned it... thats why I comment on playing against 1 person.......

I gave advice before that comment. Then my 2nd comment was just making sure you knew I wasnt telling you to list tailor and just reinforcing what I previously said in a way to let you know I wasnt trying to tell you to list tailor....

Why are you even arguing to me about it?? Did I offend you?

You only offended me by not considering the reality that to someone else, the two things are literally identical, even though to you, they are fundamentally different.

I find that humans generally have problems with the idea that what they see, hear, and think probably is not absolute truth.

What is your problem? I wasnt even talking to you about SoS or the Assassin but to him. Some players like them some like SoS, was just a reminder that this Assassin is there, many forget about them too.......

We never gave you a net list, we never suggest a net list, stop being so defensive about nothing.

And what is this last comment even for? You literally are just being rude now.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Could use an Assassin too for Anti Psychic

His bubble is a lot smaller, he's (arguably) a lot more fragile since a single S8 wound past his 4++ takes him out, he can't ride around in tanks, and he's more expensive that the SoS and the Immo put together. He's also easier to tarpit because he's only rocking a handful of attacks, whereas the Sisters will chop up almost anything that tries to tarpit them.

He's an option, but I reckon the SoS are a better one, and they fit the army a bit better too for my money. You get another PA squad, instead of some nutcase in a gimp suit running around scaring people with his Halloween mask.

 Pouncey wrote:
At the point you are specifically listing the numbers of models I need to own to field your proposed build that I use, you are not offering "general tips" anymore. You are instead offering enough information that I could design precisely the list you are thinking of, ask you if I got it right, and be very, very correct in a lot of respects.

Fair enough - that's the scale you're looking at if you want to optimise your army though, which is what I thought you were after.

:: eyerolls :: Yeah, I consider fluff important enough to design my list around if it's an important enough detail. And my chance of facing ANY Magnus is absolutely zero.

Sisters of Silence are Imperiums as well, so they can go in Immolators and have a ride around. That means it's fluffy as well as functional. They're also both "Sisters" so your fluff objection is invalid.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
What is your problem? I wasnt even talking to you about SoS or the Assassin but to him. Some players like them some like SoS, was just a reminder that this Assassin is there, many forget about them too.......

We never gave you a net list, we never sugguest a net list, stop being so defenise about nothing.

And what is this last comment even for? You literally are just being rude now.

Here's kinda my point about different perspectives on things. I'll try to explain my frustration in a legitimate attempt to explain my view on what happened over the past page or so.

To you, a struggling Sisters of Battle player asked for advice, and you suggested tips on how to design an optimal list for a standard game. We both agree that this is not an objectionable goal.

To me, I mentioned being extremely bad at the game in ways that go beyond what units I choose or which army I play (treating the game as real time instead of turn based).

Then you suggested that an optimal list for Sisters of Battle would take around 50-60 Sisters, 8-12 Immolators, and 0-3 Exorcists. I viewed this as general advice on a standard list for a standard game, from which I could extrapolate an appropriate force composition for my own army based on my particular tastes, because it was the general parameters with a wide enough range to account for personal flavor. You may recall I was not the least bit upset by this.

You suggested that I take Retributors with Heavy Flamers if I wish to charge into the face of Orks, which I agreed with because it is sound, general advice.

I mentioned that when I go out to buy my Codex, I'll need to buy a large, but indeterminate, number of Immolators and some models with Heavy Flamers, because my collection doesn't have enough models to field enough for my own list.

You then suggested that I purchase enough models with Meltaguns so I could have 24 when added to my current collection. You viewed this as simply providing the maximum number for any conceivable list for a standard game. I don't play standard 1850pts games, my opponent and I always play around 1000 points or so, so to me, you ceased providing general advice and now began providing very specific advice, because you literally just told me how many models with meltaguns I should have in my collection without considering that I might not play standard games or even face enough vehicles to require anywhere near that many meltaguns if I did.

You then started ignoring the fact my reality is different. I tried to tell you, gently, by saying calmly that to me, and I was very certain to state outright that this applies to me and not anyone else whatsoever, the difference between list tailoring and designing my list for my meta is zero, which it is because my local meta is literally one list that never changes, and I said that explicitly in the post you quoted and then explained to me literally the same thing I just finished saying to you, that to me they're the same thing, even though there's a difference. At that point I started to feel that you weren't even trying to understand what I was saying, so my mood soured, considerably.

Then the conversation turned to Sisters of Silence. I said I don't play Sisters of Silence, because fluff. At this point I was misunderstanding you, because I thought you guys were still making suggestions for my list, and I failed to account for the reality that "you" is both a general and specific term in English.

Your response, in attempting to explain the general reason players would choose Sisters of Silence, was to explain that it was due to the gameplay, not due to the fluff. Because I believed that you were making a suggestion for my list while acknowledging but disregarding my reason for not including them, my mood soured considerably.

So I hope that explains what "my problem" is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note... you ever wonder how many arguments that led to murders could simply have, like, not happened if humans, myself included, were better at understanding that our perception of reality is not absolute truth?

Your problem is that you didnt tell us what you are actually having troubles with and we started a conversation on immolators, you could have just said "I cant buy them, could you give me tactical advice for my current lists/models" List Building is 1 type of advice as well.


What do you have in models? What list are you playing? What are your playing against that are giving you problems? Also sense the new Canoness came out, did you get that model, or will your Opponent let you proxy a Canoness for that model (If you like to proxy that is, I know some dont like to at all).

Knowing these things we can go into Deployment, movement and target priority.

Edit: Do you and your partner play more fluff in a narrative fight or do you use BRB missions? Maelstrom or eternal war? (different players like different things) just wander.

LOL edit 2: Do you guys like fortifications or play/have them?

 Pouncey wrote:
Here's kinda my point about different perspectives on things. I'll try to explain my frustration in a legitimate attempt to explain my view on what happened over the past page or so.

To you, a struggling Sisters of Battle player asked for advice, [etc etc]

It wasn't Amish who said any of that - it was me. So you've just spent half a page giving some poor bloke Hell for nothing. Well done.

You then started ignoring the fact my reality is different. I tried to [blah blah blah]

Your reality is my reality. General tips for building an optimised, TAC SoB army lead to one conclusion with little variation - Meltagun Dom spam, 2x2 BSS, lots of Immos. If that's what you want, then that's what it is. If you want advice to make your current army better, it's going to be the same advice. If you have an unusual meta and want to tailor your army for it, the advice will be the same, because this build gives your Sisters the widest range of options for dealing with almost anything an opponent can throw at you.

Sisters are, more or less, monobuild, is the point here. Deviate significantly from the monobuild and you get tabled. I think I said this a few pages ago. You might want to go back and "perceive" that.

On a side note... you ever wonder how many arguments that led to murders could simply have, like, not happened if humans, myself included, were better at understanding that our perception of reality is not absolute truth?

Indeed. Poor old Amish.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Your problem is that you didnt tell us what you are actually having troubles with and we started a conversation on immolators, you could have just said "I cant buy them, could you give me tactical advice for my current lists/models" List Building is 1 type of advice as well.


What do you have in models? What list are you playing? What are your playing against that are giving you problems? Also sense the new Canoness came out, did you get that model, or will your Opponent let you proxy a Canoness for that model (If you like to proxy that is, I know some dont like to at all).

Knowing these things we can go into Deployment, movement and target priority.

Edit: Do you and your partner play more fluff in a narrative fight or do you use BRB missions? Maelstrom or eternal war? (different players like different things) just wander.

LOL edit 2: Do you guys like fortifications or play/have them?

Honestly, I think the very general advice of using Immolators as LoS-breaking terrain to force the enemy to fight up close and to lead with my heavy flamers up front is good enough for now. Once I play some games with those new models and strategies, if I'm still having difficulties I'll come back and let you guys know.

And I'd like to apologize deeply for my harsh words. You didn't deserve them. You were just trying to help, and I should have recognized that. I'm sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Here's kinda my point about different perspectives on things. I'll try to explain my frustration in a legitimate attempt to explain my view on what happened over the past page or so.

To you, a struggling Sisters of Battle player asked for advice, [etc etc]

It wasn't Amish who said any of that - it was me. So you've just spent half a page giving some poor bloke Hell for nothing. Well done.

One of my failings on forums is that I don't actually check to see who wrote what, I just reply to each individual post. I got confused because two different people were both giving me advice on the same thing, and I couldn't remember who said what, and ordinarily it wouldn't matter because I usually stick to arguing the point and avoiding even considering who is saying what.

Indeed. Poor old Amish.

I really do feel bad about that.

Sorry, Amish. I messed up, badly.

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yes I am because they're a waste of time for the majority of players and a waste of time for GW themselves. DE and SoB need to be squatted, AdMech needs consolidation into one codex, Harlequins and MT didn't need to be anything but a couple FOC's or formations for their parent codices, and Blood Angels and Dark Angels can easily be handled by a Chapter Tactic system. Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves get the exception. Then you got FW to handle the more niche stuff.

Also I don't care what the three words are because this is the Internet.

I'm gonna guess that one of two things is true.

A-Your own army is not in danger of being unpopular enough to be Squatted
B-You enjoy a wide enough variety of armies you would be capable of enjoying the game even if most of the armies you are willing to play are squatted

I play Necrons (which is very middle of the road outside being mildly popular in tournaments), Skitarii, and have about 1000 points of old school metal Daemonhunters in storage out of state. All my Marines and a majority of my Necrons were lost in a fire and otherwise I borrow models for the most part because I cannot fully explain how many points of models perished.

Otherwise, the setting and armies is fine. I'll never make an army of Eldar, IG, etc, because I don't care for the rule sets. However, there are unnecessary armies like SoB and DE that take away from potential kits for armies that people overall actually care about or matter for the setting.

That's another good point now that I think about it. The SoB codex is middle tier (if youre not playing it like you want to) and nobody uses it. It is because the army itself is unappealing.

So B then? Thought so. You made enough exceptions that I wasn't willing to assume you played any one particular army.

Also, I'm pretty sure that at least part of the army's unpopularity stemmed from the fact that a single Troops choice costing about 200 pts or so and consisting of 10 infantry and 1 transport vehicle costs about 130 CAD plus taxes. Seriously, go look at the prices of Sisters of Battle models on GW's sites and remember that those squads cost LESS points than Space Marines do,so you need MORE of them to meet the same points limit for a game than Space Marines do.

Take them in 5 man squads. This is part of the problem. You're choosing to play them badly. You get your 2 Melta Guns without more taxes.
Hence why the codex, while monobuild, can end up middle tier but nobody plays them anyway. The new kits won't change their tournament status. They're unappealing. Simple as that.

Also I don't care. If my army gets squatted I use them as something else. Simple as that. How's that for role playing instead of complaining?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Otherwise, the setting and armies is fine. I'll never make an army of Eldar, IG, etc, because I don't care for the rule sets. However, there are unnecessary armies like SoB and DE that take away from potential kits for armies that people overall actually care about or matter for the setting.

You say that, but look how well Dark Eldar sold after their revamp in 5th. The reason they're not selling now is because their rules suck. Hard to care about an army whose rules suck.

That's another good point now that I think about it. The SoB codex is middle tier (if youre not playing it like you want to) and nobody uses it. It is because the army itself is unappealing.

That's one way of looking at it. The thing to remember is, if you SoB the "middle tier" way, you're talking 50-odd Sororitas alongside 8-12 Immolators and 0-3 Exorcists. That's nearly a grand for a middle tier army if you're starting from scratch. I don't think so.

They didn't sell much in 5th either. Their rules weren't good at that point outside of Wyches killing vehicles well for the price, and their rules improved but still suck hard on top of removing characters because.

Also it isn't hard to build an Immolator or Exorcist in the same way it isn't hard to get a Razorback done. The game is as expensive as you make it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yes I am because they're a waste of time for the majority of players and a waste of time for GW themselves. DE and SoB need to be squatted, AdMech needs consolidation into one codex, Harlequins and MT didn't need to be anything but a couple FOC's or formations for their parent codices, and Blood Angels and Dark Angels can easily be handled by a Chapter Tactic system. Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves get the exception. Then you got FW to handle the more niche stuff.

Also I don't care what the three words are because this is the Internet.

I'm gonna guess that one of two things is true.

A-Your own army is not in danger of being unpopular enough to be Squatted
B-You enjoy a wide enough variety of armies you would be capable of enjoying the game even if most of the armies you are willing to play are squatted

I play Necrons (which is very middle of the road outside being mildly popular in tournaments), Skitarii, and have about 1000 points of old school metal Daemonhunters in storage out of state. All my Marines and a majority of my Necrons were lost in a fire and otherwise I borrow models for the most part because I cannot fully explain how many points of models perished.

Otherwise, the setting and armies is fine. I'll never make an army of Eldar, IG, etc, because I don't care for the rule sets. However, there are unnecessary armies like SoB and DE that take away from potential kits for armies that people overall actually care about or matter for the setting.

That's another good point now that I think about it. The SoB codex is middle tier (if youre not playing it like you want to) and nobody uses it. It is because the army itself is unappealing.

So B then? Thought so. You made enough exceptions that I wasn't willing to assume you played any one particular army.

Also, I'm pretty sure that at least part of the army's unpopularity stemmed from the fact that a single Troops choice costing about 200 pts or so and consisting of 10 infantry and 1 transport vehicle costs about 130 CAD plus taxes. Seriously, go look at the prices of Sisters of Battle models on GW's sites and remember that those squads cost LESS points than Space Marines do,so you need MORE of them to meet the same points limit for a game than Space Marines do.

Take them in 5 man squads. This is part of the problem. You're choosing to play them badly. You get your 2 Melta Guns without more taxes.
Hence why the codex, while monobuild, can end up middle tier but nobody plays them anyway. The new kits won't change their tournament status. They're unappealing. Simple as that.

Also I don't care. If my army gets squatted I use them as something else. Simple as that. How's that for role playing instead of complaining?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Otherwise, the setting and armies is fine. I'll never make an army of Eldar, IG, etc, because I don't care for the rule sets. However, there are unnecessary armies like SoB and DE that take away from potential kits for armies that people overall actually care about or matter for the setting.

You say that, but look how well Dark Eldar sold after their revamp in 5th. The reason they're not selling now is because their rules suck. Hard to care about an army whose rules suck.

That's another good point now that I think about it. The SoB codex is middle tier (if youre not playing it like you want to) and nobody uses it. It is because the army itself is unappealing.

That's one way of looking at it. The thing to remember is, if you SoB the "middle tier" way, you're talking 50-odd Sororitas alongside 8-12 Immolators and 0-3 Exorcists. That's nearly a grand for a middle tier army if you're starting from scratch. I don't think so.

They didn't sell much in 5th either. Their rules weren't good at that point outside of Wyches killing vehicles well for the price, and their rules improved but still suck hard on top of removing characters because.

Also it isn't hard to build an Immolator or Exorcist in the same way it isn't hard to get a Razorback done. The game is as expensive as you make it.

FYI, you still need a similar number of models when you go for MSU, because when you reduce the number of models per squad, you just take more squads.

Also, I don't think you've ever even held an Exorcist model in real life if you think they're as easy to build as Razorbacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also I don't care. If my army gets squatted I use them as something else. Simple as that. How's that for role playing instead of complaining?

I'll use the same logic.

I play Sisters of Battle. It's the only army I need to be happy. My only opponent plays Orks. It's the only army she needs to be happy.

But I don't say I don't care if literally EVERY army except Sisters of Battle and Orks get squatted, because I recognize that armies I don't care about are armies OTHER people care about, and their needs are just as valid as mine are, and frankly, it's okay in my view for popular products to subsidize unpopular products to create a wider variety of products for the enjoyment of ALL players. People need opponents too, and having more armies means a greater variety of opponents and enemy forces.

Literally, people who would never play Sisters of Battle and instead play Space Marines still personally benefit from the existence of Sisters of Battle, because it's a different army for them to play against, and its rarity means it's a new and unexpected challenge, which can be good on its own.

If your personal meta has no local Sisters of Battle players, so it doesn't benefit you, well guess what, my personal meta contains no armies other than Orks and Sisters of Battle, and GW has no reason to sell armies based on any particular local meta.

Am I allowed to be impolite in this case? He's literally advocating for all non-popular armies to get squatted because they don't benefit him personally? Can some mod find a way to gt this guy to stop, because he's testing the limits of the Number 1 Rule with me really, REALLY hard.

Pouncey wrote:And yes, I have been very negative within the past month. However, there is NOTHING I can do to take those words back, and now I have changed my mind about the situation. Are people not allowed to change their minds when they realize they were viewing the situation incorrectly earlier?

Yes people are allowed to change their minds. Thing is it's a bit hard to accept it from someone who changes their mind when they didn't let people have an opinion, and even worse...
Nice to see you have changed. I really mean that.

Davor wrote:

Pouncey wrote:And yes, I have been very negative within the past month. However, there is NOTHING I can do to take those words back, and now I have changed my mind about the situation. Are people not allowed to change their minds when they realize they were viewing the situation incorrectly earlier?

Yes people are allowed to change their minds. Thing is it's a bit hard to accept it from someone who changes their mind when they didn't let people have an opinion, and even worse when someone wishes me dead, or I should say the entire forum and world to boot it's a bit hard to accept. Merry Christmas.

Nice to see you have changed. I really mean that.

I don't actually wish any human dead. I know there are absolutely a large number of humans who are good people who deserve life. I have met them.

I simply think that our natural, non-evil behaviour in creating our civilization has, as a byproduct, caused wide-spread devastation to our own planet, resulting in a mass extinction that is already comparable to that time a meteorite wiped out the dinosaurs, and which continues to this day.

I can only fathom what kinds of destruction our technology will wreak on other worlds once we start spreading out into the galaxy, and I start to think that as awful as it is to think about it, maybe more lives could be saved than ruined, more suffering stopped than caused if humanity were simply obliterated by a natural interstellar event which would take out half of the planet before they could even know it was coming, and everything else dies within a day or less because sunshine will be lethal afterward. Making it as quick and painless as possible.

Honestly, if humanity does change our ways, and starts reducing our natural destruction of our own world to a degree we would not ruin worlds simply by being on them, I would change my mind about humanity too.

And you may recall... I am not a space alien tapping into the Internet from orbit in an advanced spaceship that could evade a gamma ray burst. I am a fellow human, just like you, and I fully accept that I may end up being one of the unfortunate few who is not vaporized on the side of the planet the gamma ray burst, but who must instead die myself in a painful manner of being burned to death by the Sun's UV radiation, along with every human being I know and love, since they all live on the same part I do, roughly. Including my beloved partner of 10 years, who has never harmed a soul in his entire life.

What you should take away from that is not that I consider the deaths of random strangers on webforums a sufficient price to stop humanity, it's that I consider the painful deaths of myself and all my loved ones, along with the rest of humanity, most of whom will die instantaneously, so fast they cannot even be scared because they aren't capable of knowing it's even coming if they were staring right at it, and every other life form on Earth along with us, a necessary price to stop even greater destruction and suffering in the universe that humanity will wreak in the future if we don't change.

Is there anything you would die for, if it came down to it? Anything you would accept the deaths of everyone you know and love, because it is so unquestionably bad it must be stopped before it begins? I am simply willing to accept the deaths of all life on Earth to make it so that humans IRL can't become the aliens in some other planet's Independence Day movie happening in real life.

And if I could, with the push of a button, cause a supernova in a nearby star system that would wipe out Earth... I would wait until the very last moment, when humanity is about to expand beyond range where we could be stopped by that supernova, to give humanity every last chance before it was literally "now or never."

And if you remember the Cold War, so recent that I was born near the very end of it, that was a time when many people were willing to accept the deaths of hundreds of millions of our fellow humans, simply to avoid their country going either Capitalist or Communist if it came down to fighting a war over it. We came to the very brink of that war, but due to fortunate circumstances, and in some cases people acting in direct opposition to their own beliefs and calling in a false alarm while fully believing that the opening salvo had just been launched (that particular commander definitely understood the difference between belief and knowledge, that's for sure), we barely managed to avoid it every time.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Pray to the God Emperor FW brings repressors back?

Or convert them, a lot easier than people seem to think. My vehicle of choice over the Immolator. 4 fire points means something when you are talking about Dominion squads. She who bails, fails.

Nice to see you positive Pouncey. Best for you and your family.

Davor wrote:
Nice to see you positive Pouncey. Best for you and your family.

Thanks. : )

I even just had an epiphany, or perhaps a revelation, about reality that, once again, suggests that maybe I was totally wrong about something for years. As a result, I understood how a lot of previously baffling things actually made sense, and my understanding of humanity and reality grew in the process.

I always love I'm finding out I'm wrong about seriously major stuff. I learn so much.

I'd be a great scientist.

 Pouncey wrote:

I can only fathom what kinds of destruction our technology will wreak on other worlds once we start spreading out into the galaxy,

If we can get to other worlds, our tech base won't destroy anything. We'll have unlimited fusion power and mine asteroids for materials with robots. We'll have 100% recycling built into the manufacturing design from the start, because you can't have space travel without that either. If we have the technology to leave Earth, fixing the planet will be relatively trivial.

 Pouncey wrote:

Davor wrote:
Nice to see you positive Pouncey. Best for you and your family.

Thanks. : )

I even just had an epiphany, or perhaps a revelation, about reality that, once again, suggests that maybe I was totally wrong about something for years. As a result, I understood how a lot of previously baffling things actually made sense, and my understanding of humanity and reality grew in the process.

I always love I'm finding out I'm wrong about seriously major stuff. I learn so much.

I'd be a great scientist.

Yes you would. Now I need to change and become a better person.

So about the Sisters. I always wanted to start them up but said "I will wait till they are in plastic and cheaper". Man who thought I had to wait a decade and the cheaper part would have been buying them 10 years ago.

But dang they are sweet minis. Really sucks not working right now. So much to buy. At least they are not limited editions and once I start working again, I will be able to get them.

John Prins wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

I can only fathom what kinds of destruction our technology will wreak on other worlds once we start spreading out into the galaxy,

If we can get to other worlds, our tech base won't destroy anything. We'll have unlimited fusion power and mine asteroids for materials with robots. We'll have 100% recycling built into the manufacturing design from the start, because you can't have space travel without that either. If we have the technology to leave Earth, fixing the planet will be relatively trivial.

You make a good point. Thanks! : D We'll basically either fix our tech so it works right, or wipe ourselves out anyways by not inventing stuff that would be needed to get to other planets in the first place. Very comforting, thank you! : D

I was also considering my theoretical means of destroying humanity and the problems it would pose.

Supernova are not uniform, and the destruction includes multiple systems. Depending on how large the destruction radius was, I would be allowing humanity to cause more or less destruction before we changed our ways depending on how many systems we got to. I'd also destroy other systems than ours, and, uh, that's bad. Bad Pouncey.

There's also no reason to assume that it could be done with only a supernova. There are ways to set back human technology without wiping out the species entirely, so if I had a button thatt just destroyed computers, I could give humanity an infinite amount of time to change. And if I go the other way, with a hypernova, frankly I'd be destroying such a large radius tto stop humanity that I've already failed to protect the galaxy in a significant way.

Further... the exact problem I'm trying to solve is the destruction of entire planets full of life. I don't think the best way to stop a species I'm willing to say is mostly composed of good people is to destroy THEIR planet that's got enough life still to qualify as full.

So there you have it. The reasons I'm wrong.

-Scientifically, the technology required to get to other planets prohibits the doomsday scenario I'm trying to prevent
-Morally, I'm advocating something just as bad as what I'm trying to stop, only on a smaller scale, which does not make it better.
-The very premise of my argument suggests that humans are a species unwilling to change when they view it as necessary. I know enough about humans to know that that is a flat-out wrong assumption to ever make.

Alright, I'm on board. If we ever find out a supernova that'll wipe out humanity is coming (somehow), my opinion is, "Oh crap! How do we survive! Do something, scientists and engineers! Save us if you can!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Davor wrote:
Nice to see you positive Pouncey. Best for you and your family.

Thanks. : )

I even just had an epiphany, or perhaps a revelation, about reality that, once again, suggests that maybe I was totally wrong about something for years. As a result, I understood how a lot of previously baffling things actually made sense, and my understanding of humanity and reality grew in the process.

I always love I'm finding out I'm wrong about seriously major stuff. I learn so much.

I'd be a great scientist.

Yes you would. Now I need to change and become a better person.

So about the Sisters. I always wanted to start them up but said "I will wait till they are in plastic and cheaper". Man who thought I had to wait a decade and the cheaper part would have been buying them 10 years ago.

But dang they are sweet minis. Really sucks not working right now. So much to buy. At least they are not limited editions and once I start working again, I will be able to get them.

Heh. I actually DID start my collection of Sisters 10 years ago (2006 actually), because I wasn't hugely into conversions or kitbashing yet. I remember one of the reasons I started the army then instead of in like 2002 was because in 2002, the cost of a box of Battle Sisters was 50 dollars and the cost of a box of anything else was 30 dollars. By 2006, the Sisters were still at 50 dollars, but the other kits were at 45 dollars, so I finally decided, "They're close enough now I can swing the extra cash. Let's start this army up."

I mean, if nothing else, that proves that there is at least ONE person who actually DID choose to not buy Sisters when they were way more expensive, then later started up the army when it was more comparable with other armies. ME. So I can easily imagine that other people might be thinking the same thing, "Damned, Sisters are so expensive, I'd play them if they were just cheaper...."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They didn't sell much in 5th either.

They outsold Marines for an entire business quarter in 2011.

Their rules weren't good at that point outside of Wyches killing vehicles well for the price,

They had Dark Lances on all their vehicles and Poison on everything else. The only thing they struggled against were mech Wolves, which were the Scatbike Eldar of their day. They struggled worse when people tried to charge the Razorbacks with Wyches and lost half their army to bolter fire.

and their rules improved but still suck hard on top of removing characters because.

Nobody ever took the characters. Some people tried to run Vect because he had an AV14 Skimmer but the lists were always weaker for it.

Also it isn't hard to build an Immolator or Exorcist in the same way it isn't hard to get a Razorback done. The game is as expensive as you make it.

Exorcists are a pain because the big pewter slabs that are the Launcher don't sit straight in the holes, which usually means shaving the holes out or otherwise faffing about with the chassis so the stuff sits properly. It's a very different kit from the Razorback. I never said anything about it being hard to build an Immo. It isn't. I also never complained about the price. You can't just make stuff up and then respond to it as though I'd said it. That's the internet equivalent of the jackass who laughs at his own jokes.

 BBAP wrote:
They had Dark Lances on all their vehicles and Poison on everything else. The only thing they struggled against were mech Wolves, which were the Scatbike Eldar of their day. They struggled worse when people tried to charge the Razorbacks with Wyches and lost half their army to bolter fire.

One of the advantages of having a really, REALLY good memory for completely pointless and useless info is that I remember Space Wolves being called beardy cheese about 5 years ago. I once weirded out my dad by asking him something about the first WoW character he ever created, specifically why, if he liked humans so much, he made his first toon a male gnome mage. He replied with something along the lines of, "My first toon was a Gnome Mage? Why is my Paladin my main then?" and I told him that he rolled it on a different realm because he was used to Runescape and didn't know he couldn't swap realms at will, so eventually he found out and just re-rolled on the realm he wanted to be on. He said something like, "How the HELL do you remember all that? You're talking about a toon I must've played for a few days 8 years ago and then deleted, because it's not on my list now and I don't remember it!" And I just kinda shrugged, because I have no idea why I remember all the stuff I do either. I, uh, even remembered what his character name was kinda like the point I could've guessed a few likely possibilities if he ever needed to contact a GM to restore it.

Exorcists are a pain because the big pewter slabs that are the Launcher don't sit straight in the holes, which usually means shaving the holes out or otherwise faffing about with the chassis so the stuff sits properly. It's a very different kit from the Razorback. I never said anything about it being hard to build an Immo. It isn't. I also never complained about the price. You can't just make stuff up and then respond to it as though I'd said it. That's the internet equivalent of the jackass who laughs at his own jokes.

We have those people in real life. Some of them have access to the Internet. Why assume it's impossible, when you literally just said those people exist?

 Pouncey wrote:
...I always love I'm finding out I'm wrong about seriously major stuff. I learn so much...

Exalted for awesome. (Also exalted for Christmas, but mostly exalted because this is a wonderful philosophy and needs to be encouraged.)

 Pouncey wrote:
There's also no reason to assume that it could be done with only a supernova. There are ways to set back human technology without wiping out the species entirely,

Actually, we need better technology, not not worse. We could easily be operating on a zero carbon footprint NOW, if we had gotten over the pathological fears (and NIMBYism) of nuclear technology.