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 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think 7 th ed jink is fine. Rules that encourage decisions are good.

Exalted for truth. 6th-ed Jink was a serious problem because it handed bikes and skimmers a consequence-free 4+/3+ cover save, 7th-ed snapfire-after-jinking fixed the problem quite neatly.

Ehhhh...

If the weapons on Skimmers, Bikes, and Jetbikes were more often Ordnance or Blast I would agree. As it stands, many of them are just hitting on 6s instead of their normal BS but have alternate ways of beefing things up via Psykers or the weapons being Twin-Linked.

Realistically, Jink should be something that must be declared during your Movement phase and require you to move a certain distance, not in reaction to being shot.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think 7 th ed jink is fine. Rules that encourage decisions are good.

Exalted for truth. 6th-ed Jink was a serious problem because it handed bikes and skimmers a consequence-free 4+/3+ cover save, 7th-ed snapfire-after-jinking fixed the problem quite neatly.

Ehhhh...

If the weapons on Skimmers, Bikes, and Jetbikes were more often Ordnance or Blast I would agree. As it stands, many of them are just hitting on 6s instead of their normal BS but have alternate ways of beefing things up via Psykers or the weapons being Twin-Linked.

Realistically, Jink should be something that must be declared during your Movement phase and require you to move a certain distance, not in reaction to being shot.

Rerollable 6+ means you're hitting slightly worse than a BS2 model would. Chopping a BS4 model back down to effective BS1 or 2 is a pretty serious trade-off, even if they aren't shut down entirely by being blasts.

(Off the top of my head the only way to buff a snapshot's to-hit on a Jink-capable model is to give it a reroll, unless you're Tau and have Markerlights. Or are a 30k Fire Raptor and are using a generous reading of PotMS that lets you bypass jinking with it.)

PoTMS is also snap shots I believe.

Martel732 wrote:
PoTMS is also snap shots I believe.

That's the thing. It was assumed to apply only to the number of weapons a vehicle could shoot after moving, but then the latest FAQ dropped and said it applied specifically to psychic effects that would force the vehicle to snapshot, so it may apply to any or all snapshots. It may, for instance, grant Skyfire or let you shoot at Invisible units, it may not.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think 7 th ed jink is fine. Rules that encourage decisions are good.

Exalted for truth. 6th-ed Jink was a serious problem because it handed bikes and skimmers a consequence-free 4+/3+ cover save, 7th-ed snapfire-after-jinking fixed the problem quite neatly.

Ehhhh...

If the weapons on Skimmers, Bikes, and Jetbikes were more often Ordnance or Blast I would agree. As it stands, many of them are just hitting on 6s instead of their normal BS but have alternate ways of beefing things up via Psykers or the weapons being Twin-Linked.

Realistically, Jink should be something that must be declared during your Movement phase and require you to move a certain distance, not in reaction to being shot.

Rerollable 6+ means you're hitting slightly worse than a BS2 model would. Chopping a BS4 model back down to effective BS1 or 2 is a pretty serious trade-off, even if they aren't shut down entirely by being blasts.

A BS4 model firing at BS1 or 2, effectively, with a 4+ Cover Save is better than a model firing at BS3 with no way to claim a Cover Save aside from being 25% obscured or paying for Camo Netting.

You're still waaaaaaaaay too generously gifted with Jinking.

I think DE should have some other defence unique to them. Jink isn't a problem because DE units and vehicles are terrible at taking damage. But marine bikers and storm eagles aren't.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think 7 th ed jink is fine. Rules that encourage decisions are good.

Exalted for truth. 6th-ed Jink was a serious problem because it handed bikes and skimmers a consequence-free 4+/3+ cover save, 7th-ed snapfire-after-jinking fixed the problem quite neatly.

How exactly did it do that? I can't think of many units that did that that aren't a worse problem now.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I think DE should have some other defence unique to them. Jink isn't a problem because DE units and vehicles are terrible at taking damage. But marine bikers and storm eagles aren't.

They do cover saves, if you want to user DE effectively you need to load them up in transports that have the good jink and then run around the field mad max style. Thanks to FAQ, if a vehicle jinks, the models inside dont count as jinking and can fire out at full BS (Dont ask). Again, you cant bring the storm eagle into the equation, one its forge world so its going to be stronger then normal, and two its a flyer, they already are a bitch to hit if you dont have skyfire. Marine bike are always strong because of T5, but they are still only a one wound model. Which still as DE im not sure why you care about a models str considering almost all your weapons are poison of some sort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think 7 th ed jink is fine. Rules that encourage decisions are good.

Exalted for truth. 6th-ed Jink was a serious problem because it handed bikes and skimmers a consequence-free 4+/3+ cover save, 7th-ed snapfire-after-jinking fixed the problem quite neatly.

How exactly did it do that? I can't think of many units that did that that aren't a worse problem now.

Well Black knights wound have been a hell of a lot more scary, twin linked rapid fire plasma on a 3+, and a base 3+ rerollable easily boosted to a 2+ rerollable yes please.

As opposed to now which is pretty much the same. It seems silly to nerf a load of units for one to be balanced.

I think that jinking should be dependent on how far the unit moves - it's a little silly that a trukk that moves 24" gets no cover save at all, but a tau skimmer gets a 3+ for standing still.

And honestly, declaring a jink in your movement phase would make a fair amount of sense, though I'm not sure if that would be too much of a nerf.

pm713 wrote:
As opposed to now which is pretty much the same. It seems silly to nerf a load of units for one to be balanced.

BUT also remember, what came out in 6th, flyers, what would jink then fire its really powerful weapons with no draw back, flyers.

Kap'n Krump wrote:I think that jinking should be dependent on how far the unit moves - it's a little silly that a trukk that moves 24" gets no cover save at all, but a tau skimmer gets a 3+ for standing still.

And honestly, declaring a jink in your movement phase would make a fair amount of sense, though I'm not sure if that would be too much of a nerf.

This is why I liked Jink more in 6th. You got a save based on moving not a weird you are both jinking and not jinking until the opponent finishes shooting. I'd rather improve that system.

Backspacehacker wrote:

pm713 wrote:
As opposed to now which is pretty much the same. It seems silly to nerf a load of units for one to be balanced.

BUT also remember, what came out in 6th, flyers, what would jink then fire its really powerful weapons with no draw back, flyers.

Do flyers really have weapons that good? Most seem pretty pricy for what they get.

pm713 wrote:

Kap'n Krump wrote:I think that jinking should be dependent on how far the unit moves - it's a little silly that a trukk that moves 24" gets no cover save at all, but a tau skimmer gets a 3+ for standing still.

And honestly, declaring a jink in your movement phase would make a fair amount of sense, though I'm not sure if that would be too much of a nerf.

This is why I liked Jink more in 6th. You got a save based on moving not a weird you are both jinking and not jinking until the opponent finishes shooting. I'd rather improve that system.

Backspacehacker wrote:

pm713 wrote:
As opposed to now which is pretty much the same. It seems silly to nerf a load of units for one to be balanced.

BUT also remember, what came out in 6th, flyers, what would jink then fire its really powerful weapons with no draw back, flyers.

Do flyers really have weapons that good? Most seem pretty pricy for what they get.

The only Flyer I can think of that's overarmed for its price is the Hemlock, which is also 185pts for a 2-HP 10-10-10 and has blast weapons so it can't fire after jinking. It's the sort of vehicle that has to come on, make its points back immediately, and then either explodes or spends the rest of the game running and hiding.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I think DE should have some other defence unique to them. Jink isn't a problem because DE units and vehicles are terrible at taking damage. But marine bikers and storm eagles aren't.

They do cover saves, if you want to user DE effectively you need to load them up in transports that have the good jink and then run around the field mad max style. Thanks to FAQ, if a vehicle jinks, the models inside dont count as jinking and can fire out at full BS (Dont ask). Again, you cant bring the storm eagle into the equation, one its forge world so its going to be stronger then normal, and two its a flyer, they already are a bitch to hit if you dont have skyfire. Marine bike are always strong because of T5, but they are still only a one wound model. Which still as DE im not sure why you care about a models str considering almost all your weapons are poison of some sort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think 7 th ed jink is fine. Rules that encourage decisions are good.

Exalted for truth. 6th-ed Jink was a serious problem because it handed bikes and skimmers a consequence-free 4+/3+ cover save, 7th-ed snapfire-after-jinking fixed the problem quite neatly.

How exactly did it do that? I can't think of many units that did that that aren't a worse problem now.

Well Black knights wound have been a hell of a lot more scary, twin linked rapid fire plasma on a 3+, and a base 3+ rerollable easily boosted to a 2+ rerollable yes please.

Yes but why is the Dark Eldar a justification for more heavily armored and hard hitting armies getting the same or often better levels of protection from jink?

I have done what you suggested and done the detachment that can give you a 2+ jink on turn one with all the goodies; with a 3 plus normally. The enormous difference is that apart from the venom & ravager, none of the Dark Eldar vehicles are dedicated gun platforms; they are assault transports. They're built to zip across the board and for your guys to leap out and charge; not exchange fire with a tank line. So its a lot harder for them to do what the Eldar do and just stand off and shoot. DE are supposed to charge into melee and its here that the whole army falls apart; since their infantry gets no bonus to survive shooting or over watch. Plus they all hit like wet noodles.

Well strength matters because (shock) Dark Eldar are a CC army. It states this repeatedly in both the fluff, blurbs and suggested force organization for them. Of the three basic army types only the Kabalite one is arguably a more shooting oriented army and that's only because you can put your tactical marine equivalents on assault transports and fire out of them. So can Orks, that doesn't mean Orks are intended as a shooty army. There isn't, for example, a DE equivalent of Reapers or those teleport guys.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Kap'n Krump wrote:I think that jinking should be dependent on how far the unit moves - it's a little silly that a trukk that moves 24" gets no cover save at all, but a tau skimmer gets a 3+ for standing still.

And honestly, declaring a jink in your movement phase would make a fair amount of sense, though I'm not sure if that would be too much of a nerf.

This is why I liked Jink more in 6th. You got a save based on moving not a weird you are both jinking and not jinking until the opponent finishes shooting. I'd rather improve that system.

Backspacehacker wrote:

pm713 wrote:
As opposed to now which is pretty much the same. It seems silly to nerf a load of units for one to be balanced.

BUT also remember, what came out in 6th, flyers, what would jink then fire its really powerful weapons with no draw back, flyers.

Do flyers really have weapons that good? Most seem pretty pricy for what they get.

The only Flyer I can think of that's overarmed for its price is the Hemlock, which is also 185pts for a 2-HP 10-10-10 and has blast weapons so it can't fire after jinking. It's the sort of vehicle that has to come on, make its points back immediately, and then either explodes or spends the rest of the game running and hiding.

Space Wolf, Dark Angel, Dark Eldar and Ork flyers all seem pretty bad. Eldar ones don't seem great when there aren't flyers to counter or it's the bad Hemlock.

Here's the viscous cycle I encounter with fliers:
I take Fliers because they have Skyfire, but aren't locked into using their weapons to shoot fliers. Their guns cost more than what they would on a ground tank, but provide extra utility in that they can shoot at other flying enemies without penalties.
Because the amount of damage it gives off is less than that of my ground targets, my opponents can safely ignore much of what my fliers can give out in terms of firepower. So, they don't focus on it, and don't take a lot of AA - which includes not taking many fliers.

In response to their lack of fliers, I don't need many fliers either - After all, I take them for AA. So, I drop the fliers I bring. So do they.

Now, we're playing 40k without fliers.

FMCs are still decent, of course, but many of them (in my experience) just stay on the ground because it's easier to get into assault. (If they're playing a Bloodthirster or a close-combat DP, they don't want him flying.)

And DFTS makes it so they don't even have skyfire.

Martel732 wrote:
And DFTS makes it so they don't even have skyfire.

Fortunately, DFTS is entirely optional and most people don't actually use it.

But it's still out there, and might become law in 8th.

Martel732 wrote:
But it's still out there, and might become law in 8th.

Doubtful. The backlash was huge and immediate, nobody liked the supplement, and the newer books are being very clear that it's entirely optional. GW can be dumb, but they're not *that* dumb.

Their stupidity is infinite.

At least jinking doesn't work like eldar titan holoshields...

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Jink is fine, what needs to happen is it needs a seperation from a cover save.

Imo I think jink rule should only benefit from stealth, shrouded, and invisibility.

BUT, a jink save can not be taken against the following weapon types

Torrent, blast, template, barrage, and a model with precision shot.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever ever that a bike or anything can some how dodge and explosion. Really if anything needs a template of some sort it should not be dodgeable this is coming from someone who runs a ravenwing Death Star.

I'm all for this with the exception of Precision Shot, I'm kind of torn on that one. I associate Precision Shots with sniper rifles and hitting fast moving targets with a scope is high, high difficulty. On the other hand I see the roll of six as the sniper tearing the scope off and eyeballing the shot because they're Just. That. Good.

As it stands right now jink is the only thing that makes my RW playable. 120 points for a 3 model squad. Without that rerollable 3+ I lose 120 points to a single battle cannon or a round of shooting from devs or countless other things. On top of that, only snap firing with my plasma talons kills a bike far more often than I'd like, so I have to thoroughly consider if I want to fire or not after I jink. Taking away my ability to safely shoot cripples the squad enough that they're really not that scary, especially when you'll likely have cover from the shots I fire back.

Not sure if jink saves should go. Skimmers should have them.
But a 4+ cover save is not a good thing. It should at most be a 5+ save similar to the regular 5+ cover save if a unit is shot.

Not sure if jink saves should go. Skimmers should have them.
But a 4+ cover save is not a good thing. It should at most be a 5+ save similar to the regular 5+ cover save if a unit is shot.

Been there in 6th, and as a DE player, the 5+ jink was a rough time. There have been some significant changes to the treatment of skimmers over the 4 editions I have played. I would argue that the weight of the skimmer/flier should have a bearing on its ability to use evasive manoeuvres through the jink rule.

If the sum of its AV is less than 33, keep the 4+. 5+ for 33 or over.

DE specifically, because I am biased yes, but also based on the fluff about their attack style, should be immune to Jink penalties. They have virtually no T/L weaponry in the army.

im talking 6th ed flyers when the necron airforce was the most power army in the game, and the vendetta was deadly as hell and made up the bulk of most armies.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
im talking 6th ed flyers when the necron airforce was the most power army in the game, and the vendetta was deadly as hell and made up the bulk of most armies.

That wasn't due to jink. Vendettas were 130-pt-odd models with a transport capacity of 10 that could also land in an edition where scoring only mattered last turn and lazcannons needed 5+ to explode.

 koooaei wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
im talking 6th ed flyers when the necron airforce was the most power army in the game, and the vendetta was deadly as hell and made up the bulk of most armies.

That wasn't due to jink. Vendettas were 130-pt-odd models with a transport capacity of 10 that could also land in an edition where scoring only mattered last turn and lazcannons needed 5+ to explode.

Don't forget AA was limited for ALL armies, and therefore it was a little harder to deal with Croissant Spam when they then rimmed a bunch of stuff down your throat in the form of Wraiths and Destroyer Lords and CCB (I miss the sweep attacks so much) and then some Deathmarks.

It's a tough one, Jink can be annoying and a little overpowered at times, but there many things that rely on it and, in my opinion, it does make sense. There's been some good proposals put forward but personally I disagree with all the ones I've read, either because they don't really make as much sense as others claim, or because it wouldn't improve it.

Declaring Jink in your movement phase is a decent enough idea but, really, it doesn't make sense. If you declare Jink on a given unit in your movement phase, there's a good chance your opponent will just not shoot at it, especially if you have similar units that haven't declared Jink, and then why would a biker or a skimmer pilot have adopted evasive manoeuvers if there was no incoming fire?

The proposals that Jink should be based on how fast you move or that flyers shouldn't get Jink falls through on the logic that Jink is the pilot actively trying to avoid incoming fire. It would be easy enough for a good marksman to judge where to fire if a vehicle is moving fast, but at a constant speed, but much harder if said vehicle is trying to avoid fire by zigzagging erratically. Stuff like fast moving Trukks, as someone mentioned, shouldn't be getting a save simply for moving far, a Jink represents a much more agile class of vehicle avoiding fire. As an aside though, I think they should definitely bring back making vehicles that have moved a certain distance harder to hit in combat. For flyers, the logic is the same. They're already hard to hit as it is, being high above the battlefield, they should get an extra save for evasive manoeuvers, making them even more difficult to hit. Besides, I find that most flyers are pretty much disabled once they elect to Jink. If I force one to, I can count it as dealt with in the following turn. Sure, flyers can leave combat airspace, but then we're probably talking only two, maybe three, rounds of full-BS shooting a game, which I think is fair.

The only suggestion I like, which I think someone mentioned (I only skimmed the post - pun intended) was to make Jink worse on higher AV vehicles, which does make sense as they would be heavier and therefore less agile. Perhaps a less messier fix would to reduce standard Jink to a 5+ but to say that Fast Skimmers, Jetbikes and (maybe Bikes too) get a 4+. This would reduce the power of Jink on certain things that could do with a nerf, such as deathstars surrounding the use of Jinking bikes as a save mechanic, but keep things that really need that Jink, such as the DE vehicles that have mentioned, equally as survivable while making a lot of sense. In my opinion, at least.