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Pre-Daemonhood Angron only. Both participants get their standard wargear in the colloseum gladiator arena. Both Primarchs at the height of their powers. This means Angron has the butchers nails but they have not began to erode his common sense yet. Sanguinius is pre-signus and so has not suffered any debiltating injuries yet. They both start 100m apart.
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
Sanguinius is perhaps the better swordsman but Angron is relentless: he won't care what damage Sanguinius does to him, he will just keep attacking until either he or Sanguinius is dead (or both).
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
I vote Sanguinius - his skill would give him a great advantage over an uncontrolled berserker, and his wings would allow him to disengage temporarily if Angron was getting "a little too upset."
I like the more controlled, mobile opponent with strong powers of precognition over uncontrolled wrath.
In one of the recent HH novels, Conrad Curze and Sanguinius duel, with Kurze telling Sanguinius that because of their shared precognition, almost no other Primarchs barring Horus could best them in single combat.
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"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"
"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..."
Kure didn't see Lion''s sword coming and impaling him through the midsection. It was an all out brawl after that, however. Lion was exceptionally fast and was probably instantly reacting to the insult rather then thinking about it perhaps leaving Kurze with nothing to read at the time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/01 17:46:42
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ProwlerPC wrote: Kure didn't see Lion''s sword coming and impaling him through the midsection. It was an all out brawl after that, however. Lion was exceptionally fast and was probably instantly reacting to the insult rather then thinking about it perhaps leaving Kurze with nothing to read at the time.
Isn't this the same fight Conrad nearly choked the Lion to death in?
ProwlerPC wrote: Kure didn't see Lion''s sword coming and impaling him through the midsection. It was an all out brawl after that, however. Lion was exceptionally fast and was probably instantly reacting to the insult rather then thinking about it perhaps leaving Kurze with nothing to read at the time.
If not thinking about it, makes reading it impossible or even just very hard then sanguinius abilities won't help him at all, as angron will be lost in his rage after a short period of time an won't think about what he will do but rather just akt (basically sleeping while fighting (as described in betrayer)).
Plus skill will only help you so far against an opponent who doesn't cares If he is getting hit
I voted Sanguinius for the simple reason that in Fear to Tread he tore Ka'bandha apart with his bare hands. That seems like sufficient evidence that he can deal with opponents that have unfettered fury. There is also the short story (think it's Ravens Flight?) where Corax postulates that the only people capable of slaying Angron are Sanguinius and Horus. Also, if Sanguinius can't beat Angron with his skill then he can just allow the Red Thirst to take him and beat Angron at his own game. He also has his precognition to see the future and thus judge when to let it rip. The ability to take to the skies and ground pound Angron the way he did Ka'bandha would be a great boon also Would be an awesome fight though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/01 18:44:21
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
ProwlerPC wrote: Kure didn't see Lion''s sword coming and impaling him through the midsection. It was an all out brawl after that, however. Lion was exceptionally fast and was probably instantly reacting to the insult rather then thinking about it perhaps leaving Kurze with nothing to read at the time.
Lion wasn't reacting so much as predicting Kurze based on my reading, using his hunting instincts from hunting the beasts on Caliban.
He also caught Curze completely off guard by disabling his meltabombs before he took them. Curze seems completely shocked.
Isn't this the same fight Conrad nearly choked the Lion to death in?
No. This is the fight where Lion broke Conrad's spine.
Cassor the Damned wrote: I voted Sanguinius for the simple reason that in Fear to Tread he tore Ka'bandha apart with his bare hands. That seems like sufficient evidence that he can deal with opponents that have unfettered fury.
Lorgar defeats An'ggrath, Lord of the Blood Thirsters in single combat. I don't see that this means anything.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/01 19:01:46
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
ProwlerPC wrote: Kure didn't see Lion''s sword coming and impaling him through the midsection. It was an all out brawl after that, however. Lion was exceptionally fast and was probably instantly reacting to the insult rather then thinking about it perhaps leaving Kurze with nothing to read at the time.
Lion wasn't reacting so much as predicting Kurze based on my reading, using his hunting instincts from hunting the beasts on Caliban.
He also caught Curze completely off guard by disabling his meltabombs before he took them. Curze seems completely shocked.
Isn't this the same fight Conrad nearly choked the Lion to death in?
No. This is the fight where Lion broke Conrad's spine.
Cassor the Damned wrote: I voted Sanguinius for the simple reason that in Fear to Tread he tore Ka'bandha apart with his bare hands. That seems like sufficient evidence that he can deal with opponents that have unfettered fury.
Lorgar defeats An'ggrath, Lord of the Blood Thirsters in single combat. I don't see that this means anything.
It shows Sanguinius is exceptionally skilled. Lorgar had a weapon, Sanguinius used his bare hands. It also shows that Sanguinius knows how to deal with opponents that use relentless rage rather than seasoned strategy. Meaning he would know how to handle Angron.
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
I think it was just Lorgar and Sanguinius needed someone powerful to destroy in order to look powerful themselves and who better than to take the bullet than a Daemon, honestly these are the same beings who rofl stomp entire solar systems but become punching bags whenever a mortal needs to look strong.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
It shows Sanguinius is exceptionally skilled. Lorgar had a weapon, Sanguinius used his bare hands. It also shows that Sanguinius knows how to deal with opponents that use relentless rage rather than seasoned strategy. Meaning he would know how to handle Angron.
And Angron beat another armed primarch with his bare hands.
So one could bring a similar argument about angron.
mrhappyface wrote: I think it was just Lorgar and Sanguinius needed someone powerful to destroy in order to look powerful themselves and who better than to take the bullet than a Daemon, honestly these are the same beings who rofl stomp entire solar systems but become punching bags whenever a mortal needs to look strong.
Well, you could say the same of almost every primarch fight. It is the nature of war that one must emerge the victor and appear stronger than the other. If I'm honest, I've never approved of how Lorgar defeated Angrath. The Lord of the Bloodthirsters shouldn't have fell to a Preacher, and it did seem to me it had been done to, as you say, "look powerful". Sanguinius defeating Ka'bandha on the other hand has long been an established facet of Blood Angel lore, and the Daemons purpose in said lore was to trigger the Red Thirst across the entire 9th Legion; not too make Sanguinius look powerful as he was already renowned as a great warrior unlike Lorgar.
It shows Sanguinius is exceptionally skilled. Lorgar had a weapon, Sanguinius used his bare hands. It also shows that Sanguinius knows how to deal with opponents that use relentless rage rather than seasoned strategy. Meaning he would know how to handle Angron.
And Angron beat another armed primarch with his bare hands.
So one could bring a similar argument about angron.
Who did Angron beat with his bare hands? Also, the point being made is that Sanguinius proved he was able to defeat enemies who rely on rage and not skill. All Angron beating another primarch proves is that he can beat another primarch.
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Well, you could say the same of almost every primarch fight. It is the nature of war that one must emerge the victor and appear stronger than the other. If I'm honest, I've never approved of how Lorgar defeated Angrath. The Lord of the Bloodthirsters shouldn't have fell to a Preacher, and it did seem to me it had been done to, as you say, "look powerful". Sanguinius defeating Ka'bandha on the other hand has long been an established facet of Blood Angel lore, and the Daemons purpose in said lore was to trigger the Red Thirst across the entire 9th Legion; not too make Sanguinius look powerful as he was already renowned as a great warrior unlike Lorgar.
Couldn't you then perhaps say it was part of Khorne's plan to have Ka'bandha fall in order to trigger the Red Thirst? So perhaps Sanguinius was allowed to win to further Khorne's bloody influence of the galaxy.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Well, you could say the same of almost every primarch fight. It is the nature of war that one must emerge the victor and appear stronger than the other. If I'm honest, I've never approved of how Lorgar defeated Angrath. The Lord of the Bloodthirsters shouldn't have fell to a Preacher, and it did seem to me it had been done to, as you say, "look powerful". Sanguinius defeating Ka'bandha on the other hand has long been an established facet of Blood Angel lore, and the Daemons purpose in said lore was to trigger the Red Thirst across the entire 9th Legion; not too make Sanguinius look powerful as he was already renowned as a great warrior unlike Lorgar.
Couldn't you then perhaps say it was part of Khorne's plan to have Ka'bandha fall in order to trigger the Red Thirst? So perhaps Sanguinius was allowed to win to further Khorne's bloody influence of the galaxy.
Red thirst had already been massively triggered at that point. Nothing I've seen in any reading indicates in any way that ka'bandha wasn't planning to outright win.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Well, you could say the same of almost every primarch fight. It is the nature of war that one must emerge the victor and appear stronger than the other. If I'm honest, I've never approved of how Lorgar defeated Angrath. The Lord of the Bloodthirsters shouldn't have fell to a Preacher, and it did seem to me it had been done to, as you say, "look powerful". Sanguinius defeating Ka'bandha on the other hand has long been an established facet of Blood Angel lore, and the Daemons purpose in said lore was to trigger the Red Thirst across the entire 9th Legion; not too make Sanguinius look powerful as he was already renowned as a great warrior unlike Lorgar.
Couldn't you then perhaps say it was part of Khorne's plan to have Ka'bandha fall in order to trigger the Red Thirst? So perhaps Sanguinius was allowed to win to further Khorne's bloody influence of the galaxy.
Red thirst had already been massively triggered at that point. Nothing I've seen in any reading indicates in any way that ka'bandha wasn't planning to outright win.
There have been many examples of the Gods sacrificing their own followers to cause corruption in others, Khorne would have quite happily allowed Ka'bandha to fall if he thought it would cause Sanguinius to kill him in a fit of rage. That burst of emotion would give Khorne an opening from which he may slowly manipulate Sanguinius (perhaps even influence him, in a fit of rage, to face Horus alone in the battle of Terra and cause the black rage?).
In fact who's to say Khorne didn't tell An'ggrath to lose against Lorgar so that the Horus Heresy (and the supsequent 10,000 year long hate filled war) may come to pass?
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
I voted Sangy mainly because of writing. Throughout the heresy series the other primarchs talk him up a lot. Horus points out that whereas the other primarchs are like aspects of their dad, Sangy is like a full-on "Emperor jr."
All this is used to set him up as a Worf for chaos-Horus to beat. Using one of the weaker primarchs for a Worf effect wouldn't be good writing. They wanted to communicate to the readers that Horus was waaaaay beyond primarch level.
niv-mizzet wrote: I voted Sangy mainly because of writing. Throughout the heresy series the other primarchs talk him up a lot. Horus points out that whereas the other primarchs are like aspects of their dad, Sangy is like a full-on "Emperor jr."
All this is used to set him up as a Worf for chaos-Horus to beat. Using one of the weaker primarchs for a Worf effect wouldn't be good writing. They wanted to communicate to the readers that Horus was waaaaay beyond primarch level.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Well, you could say the same of almost every primarch fight. It is the nature of war that one must emerge the victor and appear stronger than the other. If I'm honest, I've never approved of how Lorgar defeated Angrath. The Lord of the Bloodthirsters shouldn't have fell to a Preacher, and it did seem to me it had been done to, as you say, "look powerful". Sanguinius defeating Ka'bandha on the other hand has long been an established facet of Blood Angel lore, and the Daemons purpose in said lore was to trigger the Red Thirst across the entire 9th Legion; not too make Sanguinius look powerful as he was already renowned as a great warrior unlike Lorgar.
Couldn't you then perhaps say it was part of Khorne's plan to have Ka'bandha fall in order to trigger the Red Thirst? So perhaps Sanguinius was allowed to win to further Khorne's bloody influence of the galaxy.
Red thirst had already been massively triggered at that point. Nothing I've seen in any reading indicates in any way that ka'bandha wasn't planning to outright win.
There have been many examples of the Gods sacrificing their own followers to cause corruption in others, Khorne would have quite happily allowed Ka'bandha to fall if he thought it would cause Sanguinius to kill him in a fit of rage. That burst of emotion would give Khorne an opening from which he may slowly manipulate Sanguinius (perhaps even influence him, in a fit of rage, to face Horus alone in the battle of Terra and cause the black rage?).
In fact who's to say Khorne didn't tell An'ggrath to lose against Lorgar so that the Horus Heresy (and the supsequent 10,000 year long hate filled war) may come to pass?
*sniffs* I smell Tzeentch's influence here. In all seriousness though, Ka'bandha didn't make the Red Thirst worse by dieing, he had already triggered it in all Blood Angels psyche before Sanguinius killed him. Ka'bandha wanted to live, and Khorne is also the God of Martial Honour, such underhand trickery is beyond him. Lets not forget that daemons of Khorne can't lie, so I can't see them spinning such an elabarote speinster of untruth. The other problem with the "whats to say " way of thinking is that in can undermine the whole universe. After all, whats to say Calgar is only helping the Imperium so he can one day kill the Emperor and take his place?
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
niv-mizzet wrote: Horus points out that whereas the other primarchs are like aspects of their dad, Sangy is like a full-on "Emperor jr."
That just seems to refer to how he was nominated Emperor Regent in Imperium Secundus...
Which was a figurehead position which had nothing to do with his fighting prowess or military ability, which is why Guilliman nominated Lion El'Jonson as Lord Protector of Imperium Secundus. Also may be why he wasn't able to beat Curze, whereas Lion was able to beat him in single combat.
He was nominated Emperor Regent because he was pretty and wasn't a hothead like his brother Jonson.
I still don't see anything anywhere which demonstrates that he is a superior combatant to any other Primarch. Fighting is all that Angron is known for.
That and becoming a Daemon Primarch of Khorne, which again seems to speak of the fact that he was pretty good with choppa and slugga.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Well, you could say the same of almost every primarch fight. It is the nature of war that one must emerge the victor and appear stronger than the other. If I'm honest, I've never approved of how Lorgar defeated Angrath. The Lord of the Bloodthirsters shouldn't have fell to a Preacher, and it did seem to me it had been done to, as you say, "look powerful". Sanguinius defeating Ka'bandha on the other hand has long been an established facet of Blood Angel lore, and the Daemons purpose in said lore was to trigger the Red Thirst across the entire 9th Legion; not too make Sanguinius look powerful as he was already renowned as a great warrior unlike Lorgar.
Couldn't you then perhaps say it was part of Khorne's plan to have Ka'bandha fall in order to trigger the Red Thirst? So perhaps Sanguinius was allowed to win to further Khorne's bloody influence of the galaxy.
Red thirst had already been massively triggered at that point. Nothing I've seen in any reading indicates in any way that ka'bandha wasn't planning to outright win.
There have been many examples of the Gods sacrificing their own followers to cause corruption in others, Khorne would have quite happily allowed Ka'bandha to fall if he thought it would cause Sanguinius to kill him in a fit of rage. That burst of emotion would give Khorne an opening from which he may slowly manipulate Sanguinius (perhaps even influence him, in a fit of rage, to face Horus alone in the battle of Terra and cause the black rage?).
In fact who's to say Khorne didn't tell An'ggrath to lose against Lorgar so that the Horus Heresy (and the supsequent 10,000 year long hate filled war) may come to pass?
*sniffs* I smell Tzeentch's influence here. In all seriousness though, Ka'bandha didn't make the Red Thirst worse by dieing, he had already triggered it in all Blood Angels psyche before Sanguinius killed him. Ka'bandha wanted to live, and Khorne is also the God of Martial Honour, such underhand trickery is beyond him. Lets not forget that daemons of Khorne can't lie, so I can't see them spinning such an elabarote speinster of untruth. The other problem with the "whats to say " way of thinking is that in can undermine the whole universe. After all, whats to say Calgar is only helping the Imperium so he can one day kill the Emperor and take his place?
If Khorne saw Sanguinius as a potential champion of Khorne then he may have used his anger to help him beat Ka'bandha and perhaps push him to embrace hatred during his battles leading to Sanguinius becoming the newest champion of Khorne, Khorne would certainly appreciate Sanguinius' martial prowess.
I know this is a lot of conspiracy theories and 'what ifs' but that is what 40k is built off of: everyone in the galaxy has their own plans and no one quite trusts anyone in the universe, no theory is too outlandish for 40k.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Well, you could say the same of almost every primarch fight. It is the nature of war that one must emerge the victor and appear stronger than the other. If I'm honest, I've never approved of how Lorgar defeated Angrath. The Lord of the Bloodthirsters shouldn't have fell to a Preacher, and it did seem to me it had been done to, as you say, "look powerful". Sanguinius defeating Ka'bandha on the other hand has long been an established facet of Blood Angel lore, and the Daemons purpose in said lore was to trigger the Red Thirst across the entire 9th Legion; not too make Sanguinius look powerful as he was already renowned as a great warrior unlike Lorgar.
Couldn't you then perhaps say it was part of Khorne's plan to have Ka'bandha fall in order to trigger the Red Thirst? So perhaps Sanguinius was allowed to win to further Khorne's bloody influence of the galaxy.
Red thirst had already been massively triggered at that point. Nothing I've seen in any reading indicates in any way that ka'bandha wasn't planning to outright win.
There have been many examples of the Gods sacrificing their own followers to cause corruption in others, Khorne would have quite happily allowed Ka'bandha to fall if he thought it would cause Sanguinius to kill him in a fit of rage. That burst of emotion would give Khorne an opening from which he may slowly manipulate Sanguinius (perhaps even influence him, in a fit of rage, to face Horus alone in the battle of Terra and cause the black rage?).
In fact who's to say Khorne didn't tell An'ggrath to lose against Lorgar so that the Horus Heresy (and the supsequent 10,000 year long hate filled war) may come to pass?
*sniffs* I smell Tzeentch's influence here. In all seriousness though, Ka'bandha didn't make the Red Thirst worse by dieing, he had already triggered it in all Blood Angels psyche before Sanguinius killed him. Ka'bandha wanted to live, and Khorne is also the God of Martial Honour, such underhand trickery is beyond him. Lets not forget that daemons of Khorne can't lie, so I can't see them spinning such an elabarote speinster of untruth. The other problem with the "whats to say " way of thinking is that in can undermine the whole universe. After all, whats to say Calgar is only helping the Imperium so he can one day kill the Emperor and take his place?
If Khorne saw Sanguinius as a potential champion of Khorne then he may have used his anger to help him beat Ka'bandha and perhaps push him to embrace hatred during his battles leading to Sanguinius becoming the newest champion of Khorne, Khorne would certainly appreciate Sanguinius' martial prowess.
I know this is a lot of conspiracy theories and 'what ifs' but that is what 40k is built off of: everyone in the galaxy has their own plans and no one quite trusts anyone in the universe, no theory is too outlandish for 40k.
First off, Sir, I would like to commend you for your excellent use of meme. It is inspiring. I think my problem is that all the evidence suggests otherwise. Chaos' original plan was to sway Sanguinius to Khorne, which Ka'bandha attempted to do. When Sanguinius refuses Ka'bandha promises to "plague his sons for 10,000 years" and "attacks with renewed vigour" this suggests that he was trying his utmost to slay The Angel. And in their second round, he definetly knows Sanguinius will never turn to Khorne so he tries his best again. Still loses. On Terra, their 3rd confrontation, there is no doubt that Sanguinius is loyal to the Imperium and Ka'bandha attempts to kill Sanguinius and once again fails. There is no doubt that Sanguinius is the better combatant in my mind. But before the thread gets derailed onto "sanguinius vs Ka'bandha" I'll steer it back to "Sanguinius vs Angron"
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
Just because someone is loyal to the Emperor does not mean that their actions done in the name of anger and hatred do not fuel the blood god. Perhaps Ka'bandha's constant reappearances were used to insight rage within the primarch, Khorne would probably be smiling to himself as Sanguinius' rage towards Ka'bandha fueled his fight to victory. Who is to say Khorne would not drain Ka'bandha's power in order to make the fight fairer seeing as though he is the God of martial pride? Who can know the mind's of the Gods and what plans they are formulating, for all we know everything that has ever happened since the dawn of minkind has fallen into place according to the grand plan? What if there is only one chaos God and these 4 'Gods' are mearly projections used to carry out the grand plan? What if...
I'm rambeling again aren't I?
TL;DR - do not assume to understand the intentions of the Gods.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
mrhappyface wrote: Just because someone is loyal to the Emperor does not mean that their actions done in the name of anger and hatred do not fuel the blood god. Perhaps Ka'bandha's constant reappearances were used to insight rage within the primarch, Khorne would probably be smiling to himself as Sanguinius' rage towards Ka'bandha fueled his fight to victory. Who is to say Khorne would not drain Ka'bandha's power in order to make the fight fairer seeing as though he is the God of martial pride? Who can know the mind's of the Gods and what plans they are formulating, for all we know everything that has ever happened since the dawn of minkind has fallen into place according to the grand plan? What if there is only one chaos God and these 4 'Gods' are mearly projections used to carry out the grand plan? What if...
I'm rambeling again aren't I?
Where have I heard this before..
Khorne is Palpatine!
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
6000 pts
2000 pts
2500 pts
3000 pts
Would be an awesome fight though.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
20000+ points
