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Cassor the Damned wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
sorry to bust some bubbles here, but most recent depictions of sanguinius does NOT put him In the same league as angron, something drastic is going to have to happen to have sangy able to compete, I'm not a fan of this retcon but its there in the unremembered empire series.

I mean, the fella without his precog couldn't even compete with curze, and yes I know some of you will say "but he was unarmoured" armour doesn't mean squat with primarch on primarch fights, they all have weapon that cut through it with ease both on TT and in the fluff, Sangy even says himself he knows curze could kill him, so with this retcon, that puts him below curze but above a couple of the others, he would be roflestomped buy primarchs like the lion, vulkan, angron, horus acended, lorgar acended etc.

Haven't read the book and not in the best state of mind right now, but I'd have to say that just because one book says Sanguinius is not upper tier does not mean that he is not upper tier. Think of all the books that say Sangy is an absolute beast. There are loads. How many say he sucks. One. I'd be inclined to say Sanguinius is still in the top 3 without breaking a sweat.

I never get why people all think Sanguinius is so great in combat. What did the guy ever do to earn that reputation?
Beat up a Bloodthirster? That is nothing for a Primarch. Lorgar smashed the fething lord of the Bloodthirsters. Lorgar has more impressive combat feats than Sanguinius, and Lorgar is generally regarded as the weakest of Primarchs. So why would Sanguinius be good?

 Formosa wrote:
sorry to bust some bubbles here, but most recent depictions of sanguinius does NOT put him In the same league as angron, something drastic is going to have to happen to have sangy able to compete, I'm not a fan of this retcon but its there in the unremembered empire series.

I mean, the fella without his precog couldn't even compete with curze, and yes I know some of you will say "but he was unarmoured" armour doesn't mean squat with primarch on primarch fights, they all have weapon that cut through it with ease both on TT and in the fluff, Sangy even says himself he knows curze could kill him, so with this retcon, that puts him below curze but above a couple of the others, he would be roflestomped buy primarchs like the lion, vulkan, angron, horus acended, lorgar acended etc.

What book is that specifically - Pharos?

In Angels of Caliban, Sanguinius said he was unharmed and Curze offered to let Sang kill him (he refused).

Didn't Angron stop a Titan from squishing Lorgar? That's pretty bloody impressive.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
sorry to bust some bubbles here, but most recent depictions of sanguinius does NOT put him In the same league as angron, something drastic is going to have to happen to have sangy able to compete, I'm not a fan of this retcon but its there in the unremembered empire series.

I mean, the fella without his precog couldn't even compete with curze, and yes I know some of you will say "but he was unarmoured" armour doesn't mean squat with primarch on primarch fights, they all have weapon that cut through it with ease both on TT and in the fluff, Sangy even says himself he knows curze could kill him, so with this retcon, that puts him below curze but above a couple of the others, he would be roflestomped buy primarchs like the lion, vulkan, angron, horus acended, lorgar acended etc.

Haven't read the book and not in the best state of mind right now, but I'd have to say that just because one book says Sanguinius is not upper tier does not mean that he is not upper tier. Think of all the books that say Sangy is an absolute beast. There are loads. How many say he sucks. One. I'd be inclined to say Sanguinius is still in the top 3 without breaking a sweat.

I never get why people all think Sanguinius is so great in combat. What did the guy ever do to earn that reputation?
Beat up a Bloodthirster? That is nothing for a Primarch. Lorgar smashed the fething lord of the Bloodthirsters. Lorgar has more impressive combat feats than Sanguinius, and Lorgar is generally regarded as the weakest of Primarchs. So why would Sanguinius be good?

Ka'Bandha has many similar titles as An'ggrath, "...first among Bloodthirsters", "...no other creature had taken more skulls for the Blood God...". But it's also a matter of just being old fluff at this point. His fight against Ka'Bandha was something unique about Sanguinius for a long time, and was an example of his might. The HH series has seriously watered all of the old lore down, hence why we now have multiple examples of primarchs felling greater daemons.

Ranking all of the primarchs is impossible, but most people agree that Sanguinius and Angron are in the top tier together. Corax thinks Horus and Sanguinius are the only ones with a chance to beat Angron, Horus thinks Angron is the only one with a chance against Sanguinius. We've seen the two of them referred to as the best among the primarchs multiple times throughout the HH series, that's why people rank him so highly.

Formosa: Sanguinius absolutely competed with Curze, read the fight again, they match each other step for step. He also dueled the Lion behind closed doors on Macragge, and the scar he leaves on the Lion's cheek is noted as something done to put the Lion in his place.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
sorry to bust some bubbles here, but most recent depictions of sanguinius does NOT put him In the same league as angron, something drastic is going to have to happen to have sangy able to compete, I'm not a fan of this retcon but its there in the unremembered empire series.

I mean, the fella without his precog couldn't even compete with curze, and yes I know some of you will say "but he was unarmoured" armour doesn't mean squat with primarch on primarch fights, they all have weapon that cut through it with ease both on TT and in the fluff, Sangy even says himself he knows curze could kill him, so with this retcon, that puts him below curze but above a couple of the others, he would be roflestomped buy primarchs like the lion, vulkan, angron, horus acended, lorgar acended etc.

Haven't read the book and not in the best state of mind right now, but I'd have to say that just because one book says Sanguinius is not upper tier does not mean that he is not upper tier. Think of all the books that say Sangy is an absolute beast. There are loads. How many say he sucks. One. I'd be inclined to say Sanguinius is still in the top 3 without breaking a sweat.

I never get why people all think Sanguinius is so great in combat. What did the guy ever do to earn that reputation?
Beat up a Bloodthirster? That is nothing for a Primarch. Lorgar smashed the fething lord of the Bloodthirsters. Lorgar has more impressive combat feats than Sanguinius, and Lorgar is generally regarded as the weakest of Primarchs. So why would Sanguinius be good?

I've made this point a few times but I'll do it again just in case you skipped a bit of the thread accidentally. Firstly, there is alot of old fluff that suggests Ka'bandha was the greatest of the blood thirsters. Now, it is less clear between him, Angrath and skarbrand. The reason Sanguinius killing Ka'bandha is so impressive is because he fought two greater daemons at once with his bare hands and tore them apart, right after he had awoke from the worst injury of his life. Lorgar only faced one greater daemon and was fully armed and well rested. It is impressive because Sanguinius found it so easy, even when the odds were seriously stacked against him. The other reason is simply saturation. So many sources and HH novels cite Sanguinius as one of the greatest warriors amongst the primarchs,

Cassor the Damned wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
sorry to bust some bubbles here, but most recent depictions of sanguinius does NOT put him In the same league as angron, something drastic is going to have to happen to have sangy able to compete, I'm not a fan of this retcon but its there in the unremembered empire series.

I mean, the fella without his precog couldn't even compete with curze, and yes I know some of you will say "but he was unarmoured" armour doesn't mean squat with primarch on primarch fights, they all have weapon that cut through it with ease both on TT and in the fluff, Sangy even says himself he knows curze could kill him, so with this retcon, that puts him below curze but above a couple of the others, he would be roflestomped buy primarchs like the lion, vulkan, angron, horus acended, lorgar acended etc.

Haven't read the book and not in the best state of mind right now, but I'd have to say that just because one book says Sanguinius is not upper tier does not mean that he is not upper tier. Think of all the books that say Sangy is an absolute beast. There are loads. How many say he sucks. One. I'd be inclined to say Sanguinius is still in the top 3 without breaking a sweat.

thing is, its a series of books, and the ones that say he is a beast, are old fluff and not from
A: his perspective
B: people around him
C: actually seeing what he does

Sang is not top 3 at the mo, its reconned like the Tsons being the smallest legion, its changed until new info is forthcoming, I personally don't like the change, always putting sangy at a solid 3rd after Buffed Horus and Deamon Angron


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
sorry to bust some bubbles here, but most recent depictions of sanguinius does NOT put him In the same league as angron, something drastic is going to have to happen to have sangy able to compete, I'm not a fan of this retcon but its there in the unremembered empire series.

I mean, the fella without his precog couldn't even compete with curze, and yes I know some of you will say "but he was unarmoured" armour doesn't mean squat with primarch on primarch fights, they all have weapon that cut through it with ease both on TT and in the fluff, Sangy even says himself he knows curze could kill him, so with this retcon, that puts him below curze but above a couple of the others, he would be roflestomped buy primarchs like the lion, vulkan, angron, horus acended, lorgar acended etc.

What book is that specifically - Pharos?

In Angels of Caliban, Sanguinius said he was unharmed and Curze offered to let Sang kill him (he refused).

Yeah its the Unremembered empire series, the only thing that stopped curze killing sangy was the precog, something curze also has, however sang knows that if the fight continues, curze will kill him, lets put that in perspective, of the 3 fights the lion and curze had, curze won 1 arguably, and got pwned the other 2 times, lion doesn't have precog, curze does, and still couldn't beat him, that puts lion well above curze, who is above sangy, who has similar abilities, that means sangy is not top tier according to newer fluff.

I think it will change though and he will be put back in his rightful place


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
sorry to bust some bubbles here, but most recent depictions of sanguinius does NOT put him In the same league as angron, something drastic is going to have to happen to have sangy able to compete, I'm not a fan of this retcon but its there in the unremembered empire series.

I mean, the fella without his precog couldn't even compete with curze, and yes I know some of you will say "but he was unarmoured" armour doesn't mean squat with primarch on primarch fights, they all have weapon that cut through it with ease both on TT and in the fluff, Sangy even says himself he knows curze could kill him, so with this retcon, that puts him below curze but above a couple of the others, he would be roflestomped buy primarchs like the lion, vulkan, angron, horus acended, lorgar acended etc.

Haven't read the book and not in the best state of mind right now, but I'd have to say that just because one book says Sanguinius is not upper tier does not mean that he is not upper tier. Think of all the books that say Sangy is an absolute beast. There are loads. How many say he sucks. One. I'd be inclined to say Sanguinius is still in the top 3 without breaking a sweat.

I never get why people all think Sanguinius is so great in combat. What did the guy ever do to earn that reputation?
Beat up a Bloodthirster? That is nothing for a Primarch. Lorgar smashed the fething lord of the Bloodthirsters. Lorgar has more impressive combat feats than Sanguinius, and Lorgar is generally regarded as the weakest of Primarchs. So why would Sanguinius be good?

Ka'Bandha has many similar titles as An'ggrath, "...first among Bloodthirsters", "...no other creature had taken more skulls for the Blood God...". But it's also a matter of just being old fluff at this point. His fight against Ka'Bandha was something unique about Sanguinius for a long time, and was an example of his might. The HH series has seriously watered all of the old lore down, hence why we now have multiple examples of primarchs felling greater daemons.

Ranking all of the primarchs is impossible, but most people agree that Sanguinius and Angron are in the top tier together. Corax thinks Horus and Sanguinius are the only ones with a chance to beat Angron, Horus thinks Angron is the only one with a chance against Sanguinius. We've seen the two of them referred to as the best among the primarchs multiple times throughout the HH series, that's why people rank him so highly.

Formosa: Sanguinius absolutely competed with Curze, read the fight again, they match each other step for step. He also dueled the Lion behind closed doors on Macragge, and the scar he leaves on the Lion's cheek is noted as something done to put the Lion in his place.

Agreed he competed with Curze, but he knew he would lose, he says so himself.

 Formosa wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
sorry to bust some bubbles here, but most recent depictions of sanguinius does NOT put him In the same league as angron, something drastic is going to have to happen to have sangy able to compete, I'm not a fan of this retcon but its there in the unremembered empire series.

I mean, the fella without his precog couldn't even compete with curze, and yes I know some of you will say "but he was unarmoured" armour doesn't mean squat with primarch on primarch fights, they all have weapon that cut through it with ease both on TT and in the fluff, Sangy even says himself he knows curze could kill him, so with this retcon, that puts him below curze but above a couple of the others, he would be roflestomped buy primarchs like the lion, vulkan, angron, horus acended, lorgar acended etc.

Haven't read the book and not in the best state of mind right now, but I'd have to say that just because one book says Sanguinius is not upper tier does not mean that he is not upper tier. Think of all the books that say Sangy is an absolute beast. There are loads. How many say he sucks. One. I'd be inclined to say Sanguinius is still in the top 3 without breaking a sweat.

thing is, its a series of books, and the ones that say he is a beast, are old fluff and not from
A: his perspective
B: people around him
C: actually seeing what he does

Sang is not top 3 at the mo, its reconned like the Tsons being the smallest legion, its changed until new info is forthcoming, I personally don't like the change, always putting sangy at a solid 3rd after Buffed Horus and Deamon Angro


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
sorry to bust some bubbles here, but most recent depictions of sanguinius does NOT put him In the same league as angron, something drastic is going to have to happen to have sangy able to compete, I'm not a fan of this retcon but its there in the unremembered empire series.

I mean, the fella without his precog couldn't even compete with curze, and yes I know some of you will say "but he was unarmoured" armour doesn't mean squat with primarch on primarch fights, they all have weapon that cut through it with ease both on TT and in the fluff, Sangy even says himself he knows curze could kill him, so with this retcon, that puts him below curze but above a couple of the others, he would be roflestomped buy primarchs like the lion, vulkan, angron, horus acended, lorgar acended etc.

What book is that specifically - Pharos?

In Angels of Caliban, Sanguinius said he was unharmed and Curze offered to let Sang kill him (he refused).

Yeah its the Unremembered empire series, the only thing that stopped curze killing sangy was the precog, something curze also has, however sang knows that if the fight continues, curze will kill him, lets put that in perspective, of the 3 fights the lion and curze had, curze won 1 arguably, and got pwned the other 2 times, lion doesn't have precog, curze does, and still couldn't beat him, that puts lion well above curze, who is above sangy, who has similar abilities, that means sangy is not top tier according to newer fluff.

I think it will change though and he will be put back in his rightful place

I can see where you are coming from for sure, I guess everyone is going to have a different opinion depending on whether they follow one new bit of fluff or lots of old fluff. Personally, I'd go with the "lots of old fluff" just because I think saturation of a point makes more sense. It seems to me it may have already been retconned tbh. Pharos had Sangy lose apparently. That was book 34, but by book 38 Sanguinius was saying he was unharmed and didnt kill him out of mercy. I read on this thread a little bit up that Sanguinius beat the Lion in a duel I think, so if the lion beats curze and sangy beats the lion. ...It many have been retconned already

 Orblivion wrote:


Formosa: Sanguinius absolutely competed with Curze, read the fight again, they match each other step for step. He also dueled the Lion behind closed doors on Macragge, and the scar he leaves on the Lion's cheek is noted as something done to put the Lion in his place.

Where exactly did you read this? I've read Unremembered Empire and Angels of Caliban and the way Sanguinius recounted his encounter with Curze, he was uninjured and Curze bared his neck, asking Sanguinius to kill him.

I also don't recall any duel in any book.

Is this stuff you're referring to in the Pharos novel?

Weird that none of this was even mentioned in Angels of Caliban.

Cassor the Damned wrote:


I've made this point a few times but I'll do it again just in case you skipped a bit of the thread accidentally. Firstly, there is alot of old fluff that suggests Ka'bandha was the greatest of the blood thirsters. Now, it is less clear between him, Angrath and skarbrand. The reason Sanguinius killing Ka'bandha is so impressive is because he fought two greater daemons at once with his bare hands and tore them apart, right after he had awoke from the worst injury of his life. Lorgar only faced one greater daemon and was fully armed and well rested. It is impressive because Sanguinius found it so easy, even when the odds were seriously stacked against him. The other reason is simply saturation. So many sources and HH novels cite Sanguinius as one of the greatest warriors amongst the primarchs,

Actually he didn't, he fought them one at a time with help from his legion. Against the second greater daemon he was fully armed. So basically he killed two greater daemons who were already wounded when he fought them one after another with the help of a bunch of his sons.
Witch is still a fight you can brag about but a bit less imperessiv then fighting them both at a time while being unarmed an alone.

Edit: Oh and he had a blank with him... that may have given him a little advantage.

Curze with his newfound super-precog abilities should be able to take any non-Psyker non-future seeing Primarch.

Giving him such control over his visions was a terrible idea. Who wrote in his second by second foresight anyway?

Sanguinius without question. This is 40K (well, 30K) where Chaos can never actually win. Angron was born a loser, he joined the losing side, he lost. There's no way he could ever win against anyone important.

Hmm... Born a loser, joined the losers, lost. Could someone make that into a fake Latin motto for Chaos?

Spetulhu wrote:
Sanguinius without question. This is 40K (well, 30K) where Chaos can never actually win. Angron was born a loser, he joined the losing side, he lost. There's no way he could ever win against anyone important.

Hmm... Born a loser, joined the losers, lost. Could someone make that into a fake Latin motto for Chaos?

You seem to be confused, it is chaos that will always win.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Curze with his newfound super-precog abilities should be able to take any non-Psyker non-future seeing Primarch.

Giving him such control over his visions was a terrible idea. Who wrote in his second by second foresight anyway?

Lion beat Curze badly. By taking him by surprise and anticipating his trap.

So his precog is clearly limited.

Spetulhu wrote:
Sanguinius without question. This is 40K (well, 30K) where Chaos can never actually win. Angron was born a loser, he joined the losing side, he lost. There's no way he could ever win against anyone important.

Hmm... Born a loser, joined the losers, lost. Could someone make that into a fake Latin motto for Chaos?

you know chaos won the HH right?

They broke the webway project, forced the Big E onto the golden throne and shattered the mechanicum and any advancement that humanity could have made.

Horus died and the traitor legions were pushed back, they started the long war and they will win it eventually.

The imperium.... um.... pushed back the traitors? and lost everything else, that's not a victory by any stretch of the imagination

My vote is sanguinius because he has wings. He has the advantage of flight.

If he didn't have wings, I'd give it to Angron.

Either Angron walks out alive, or neither of them do.

Angron is the best primarch 1v1. That's all there is to it.
But to elaborate:
When Guilliman (no slouch) had fething power fists and Angron had chainswords, Angron was so much stronger that despite the force magnification of Guilliman's power fists he was being driven into the ground like a nail. Angron is an OOM more powerful than Guiliman. Simply put there is no real way Sanguinius has the striking force advantage.
Angron with his flesh and armor in tatters was able to not only stop the stomp of a warhound but prevent it from raising its leg. Sanguinius has no such feats. I'm giving Angron strength too.
Angron has this. He is the chosen of the god of martial prowess after all. That should tell you all you need to know. He's unbeatable in a fair fight.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Curze with his newfound super-precog abilities should be able to take any non-Psyker non-future seeing Primarch.

Giving him such control over his visions was a terrible idea. Who wrote in his second by second foresight anyway?

Dan Abnett, but he remembered that Curze only sees the worst possible futures. Likewise Gav Thorpe understood that while Curze may be able to predict the future, he might not necessarily be able to reconcile his visions with his current circumstances. He knows he'll be killed by the Callidus Assassin, for example, and so is defeated when it looks like he might not be; he's become a slave to darkness, you might say.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Angron is the best primarch 1v1. That's all there is to it.
But to elaborate:
When Guilliman (no slouch) had fething power fists and Angron had chainswords, Angron was so much stronger that despite the force magnification of Guilliman's power fists he was being driven into the ground like a nail. Angron is an OOM more powerful than Guiliman. Simply put there is no real way Sanguinius has the striking force advantage.
Angron with his flesh and armor in tatters was able to not only stop the stomp of a warhound but prevent it from raising its leg. Sanguinius has no such feats. I'm giving Angron strength too.
Angron has this. He is the chosen of the god of martial prowess after all. That should tell you all you need to know. He's unbeatable in a fair fight.

Didn't Angron have Lorgar helping him and was still unable to kill Papasmurf? Haven't read betrayer in some time but that's how I remember it. That warhound thing was fething awesome though

No Lorgar fought him before and then Angron steppt in and beat the crap out of Guilliman, Lorgar just stoud there and watched... And stopped Angron from landing the killing blow by tourning him into a Deamon and giving Guilimans men enough time to drag him away.

So Angron has beaten two primarchs and just didn't kill them.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:


Formosa: Sanguinius absolutely competed with Curze, read the fight again, they match each other step for step. He also dueled the Lion behind closed doors on Macragge, and the scar he leaves on the Lion's cheek is noted as something done to put the Lion in his place.

Where exactly did you read this? I've read Unremembered Empire and Angels of Caliban and the way Sanguinius recounted his encounter with Curze, he was uninjured and Curze bared his neck, asking Sanguinius to kill him.

I also don't recall any duel in any book.

Is this stuff you're referring to in the Pharos novel?

Weird that none of this was even mentioned in Angels of Caliban.

The Lion and Sanguinius as far as I know have not had a dual. Sanguinius throughout the Unremembered Empire story line has made it very clear that he would not side with either brother going out of his way tell Guilliman that he would not berate the Lion even when the lord of Macragge was demanding the Lion be humbled. I can only think that people are getting a bit confused by the story “Herald of Sanguinius”. In “Herald of Sanguinius” the Lion is demanding an audience with Sanguinius as he is getting fed up with his brother locking himself away and sulking when he should be doing his duty as Emperor of the Imperium Secundus. Azkaellon refuses to allow him to enter but says that he would talk to Sanguinius on his behalf to which the Lion says that he will be waiting. Not going to give away what happens between Sanguinius and Azkaellon but it ends with Sanguinius flying off taking his sword with him and Azkaellon taking part in a ritual to create a “substitute” for Sanguinius. Azkaellon then brings the Lion for his audience and he is not too happy to find himself with this “substitute”. The Lion gets in Azkaellon face and Azkaellon sees an almost invisible scar that he notes could only be made by another Primarch, he makes an educated guess that it was not a wound to kill but to humiliate. Now this is where people seem to be getting confused the scar could not have been caused by Sanguinius as the Lion this whole time had been waiting in the entrance hall for his audience and was furious that he was unable to come face to face with his brother. The wound was more likely caused by Curze during their numerous encounters as the writers were trying to show how the Lion’s obsession with hunting down Curze was becoming a problem and that he was no longer thinking clearly as Curze had gone out of his way to make it personal.

When it comes to Primarch vs Primarch threads as much as I enjoy them it should be noted that there is no such thing as an unbeatable Primarch. There are those Primarchs who put more time and effort into developing their combat ability’s but then you have guys like Magnus who although not known for his combat powers is still considered arguable the most powerful of his kind. Mortarion in “Scars” argued this very point as his men were taking bets on who would beat who. When it comes to a straight fight in a clean environment Sanguinius is likely to beat Mortarion but change the setting to a harsher environment then the advantage goes the other way.

As for my vote it goes to Angron as this really is all he has, were as Sanguinius has more than enough things going for him. Frankly the Horus series has portrayed Sanguinius as more of an inspirational icon then a combat monster.

Cassor the Damned wrote:
Didn't Angron have Lorgar helping him and was still unable to kill Papasmurf? Haven't read betrayer in some time but that's how I remember it. That warhound thing was fething awesome though

Lorgar was actively restraining Angron in order to piss him off enough at Guilliman's escape to trigger his Khornegasm.

Angry Ron hands down