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 Vankraken wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Eldar - As mentioned by others, the weird community reaction to them.

I was going to type of this long winded story/rant about my experience with Eldar players in my local community but I didn't want to come across as being a jerk. Basically I will put it that a fair number of Eldar players come across as power gamers who pretend to not be that and will act like their Codex isn't a top tier codex. 6th Edition there was a ton of Wave Serpent spam and the story from these Eldar players was complaints that the other stuff in the codex is lackluster and Eldar needed those Wave Serpents to compete. Fast forward to 7th where most everything in the codex got a buff while Serpents got nerfed and you then see Jet Bikes all with Scatter Lasers, D Scythes with the token Dark Eldar HQ using a webway portal, and boatloads of Warp Spiders. Again its the whole song and dance about how outside of those few power units Eldar isn't that good and those other units just can't function or when a formation requires them that they are a tax unit. Hear enough of it and it makes you become jaded towards Eldar players especially when they complain about certain things not being very good.

Yep, I know of 1 really cool Eldar player at my store, but I also know 2 TFGs that play Eldar.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Eldar - As mentioned by others, the weird community reaction to them.

I was going to type of this long winded story/rant about my experience with Eldar players in my local community but I didn't want to come across as being a jerk. Basically I will put it that a fair number of Eldar players come across as power gamers who pretend to not be that and will act like their Codex isn't a top tier codex. 6th Edition there was a ton of Wave Serpent spam and the story from these Eldar players was complaints that the other stuff in the codex is lackluster and Eldar needed those Wave Serpents to compete. Fast forward to 7th where most everything in the codex got a buff while Serpents got nerfed and you then see Jet Bikes all with Scatter Lasers, D Scythes with the token Dark Eldar HQ using a webway portal, and boatloads of Warp Spiders. Again its the whole song and dance about how outside of those few power units Eldar isn't that good and those other units just can't function or when a formation requires them that they are a tax unit. Hear enough of it and it makes you become jaded towards Eldar players especially when they complain about certain things not being very good.

Yep, I know of 1 really cool Eldar player at my store, but I also know 2 TFGs that play Eldar.

We've got two Eldar players at our store.
One runs Eldar just so he can legally field his Harlequins.
The other has run almost the exact same list for as long as I've known him, it even fits under Community Comp rules.
The only complaint I have about either of them is that I'm constantly trying out new stuff and rewriting my lists and it's so hard to not taylor my list when I agree to play the second one.

 Asmodai wrote:

Chaos - The random Chaos boon table. Also that my Warp Talons, who have claws sharp enough to rip apart the very fabric of reality, are only AP3.

Warp Talons:
Can cut through reality itself,
But not through Terminator armor .
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to 40k.

preface: new player, 1000 point cap with friends.

-All space marine vehicles are so expensive! I would love to play with a Land Raider filled with Terminators riding gloriously into assault. However, that would cost me roughly half my army.

-Terminators are incredibly expensive. Thinking about it as "points per dice," they're just not worth it.

-Unique HQs are incredibly expensive.

-I don't see any lord of war in my codex... why?

Tone the unique HQs down and make them points affordable. Captain Lysander is super cool, but 230 points for ONE unit is nuts! He's just a single guy with 3 melee attacks. I can effectively construct him for cheaper. (Captain. Terminator Armor. Aegis Shield Relic (50 points). gets you to 170, just as tanky, except no +6str Ap1 Hammer. I could get a 2x str AP2 power fist for less than half of those remaining 60 points). Is there ever a situation where AP1 matters?

Got a few armies so going to have to list them a little

Necrons:
- the look of the new flayed ones, and that my immortals are all mixed matched. I picked up necrons as a young'un when they were still old crons. Now some of my collection doesnt really mesh as well.

Admech:
- Says it all really. They should be a combined list.
- Oh and i love the dragoon models. Hate their £/points ratio

Dark Angels:
- Not so many complaints, mostly the fact that my favourite aspect is the Deathwing and they're fairly over costed.

Thousand Sons:
- Although im still building them up, my list planning is hating the price of rubrics. I'd love to run a warherd, but im not sure i could stomach painting so many tzaangors

HOWEVER!
the major thing that i hate is not my army, but my primary opponent/girlfriends army.
- she plays orks....
- I feel i have to really hinder lists, especially necrons, for a fair match. So I've never used Decurion and i feel certain formations like Lions blade with full BS overwatch, and the Cohort Cybernetica may be too much to be friendly.

Oh, and another thing

Tesla is pretty lackluster. The only weapon that really benefits from it is the twin linked destructor, due to its high RoF, and being TL gives it a higher change of proccing Tesla's ability.

The smaller varients are pretty pathetic. I only have tesla immortals for looks; in practicality the Gauss Blaster is superior, as it's more reliable at dealing with infantry and can hurt vehicles.

Tesla needs haywire or something to make it worthwhile, or a change to hit aircraft. I have it on good authority that planes don't like lightning.
Maybe they could still one of Dropzone's commander's rules, and make it really accurate against aircraft, but not so accurate against ground based targets (not snap shots though. Just a hit modifier)

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Chaos - The random Chaos boon table. Also that my Warp Talons, who have claws sharp enough to rip apart the very fabric of reality, are only AP3.

Warp Talons:
Can cut through reality itself,
But not through Terminator armor .
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to 40k.

Gotta agree. Even Orks get AP2 on klaws.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Eldar - As mentioned by others, the weird community reaction to them.

I was going to type of this long winded story/rant about my experience with Eldar players in my local community but I didn't want to come across as being a jerk. Basically I will put it that a fair number of Eldar players come across as power gamers who pretend to not be that and will act like their Codex isn't a top tier codex. 6th Edition there was a ton of Wave Serpent spam and the story from these Eldar players was complaints that the other stuff in the codex is lackluster and Eldar needed those Wave Serpents to compete. Fast forward to 7th where most everything in the codex got a buff while Serpents got nerfed and you then see Jet Bikes all with Scatter Lasers, D Scythes with the token Dark Eldar HQ using a webway portal, and boatloads of Warp Spiders. Again its the whole song and dance about how outside of those few power units Eldar isn't that good and those other units just can't function or when a formation requires them that they are a tax unit. Hear enough of it and it makes you become jaded towards Eldar players especially when they complain about certain things not being very good.

Those players are called competitive players, it's not Eldar or anything.

They're just building competitive lists.

Mind you, that might be because back in 4th /5th, that was the only way to stand a chance against other armies, you really needed a very strong list to just be able to survive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
just as tanky, except no +6str Ap1 Hammer. I could get a 2x str AP2 power fist for less than half of those remaining 60 points). Is there ever a situation where AP1 matters?

Yes, splitting vehicles in half.

However, I doubt Lysander can get on a bike and stuff, so that probably makes him worthless.

 backlash13 wrote:
Got a few armies so going to have to list them a little

Necrons:
- the look of the new flayed ones, and that my immortals are all mixed matched. I picked up necrons as a young'un when they were still old crons. Now some of my collection doesnt really mesh as well.

Admech:
- Says it all really. They should be a combined list.
- Oh and i love the dragoon models. Hate their £/points ratio

Dark Angels:
- Not so many complaints, mostly the fact that my favourite aspect is the Deathwing and they're fairly over costed.

Thousand Sons:
- Although im still building them up, my list planning is hating the price of rubrics. I'd love to run a warherd, but im not sure i could stomach painting so many tzaangors

HOWEVER!
the major thing that i hate is not my army, but my primary opponent/girlfriends army.
- she plays orks....
- I feel i have to really hinder lists, especially necrons, for a fair match. So I've never used Decurion and i feel certain formations like Lions blade with full BS overwatch, and the Cohort Cybernetica may be too much to be friendly.

Could you take some inspiration from some of the 'simple fixes to make Orks competitive' threads to buff your GF's army to a more reasonable level, if they're mainly friendly games?

Orks.

I love my Orks. I love customizing classic cars for buggies. I love how in one hand I can take them as a serious bezerk race. In the other there is some element of humour in their primitive state.

However,

It sucks knowing that as soon as I open my mini case; I'm going to lose. So few invul saves, so much enemy ap, no stacking FnP, tankbusta bombs now FAQ'd to redudency, terrible leadership.

I really do believe whoever wrote the codex just had a long losing streak with Orks. Walkers that have morale. Troops that kill themselves. Our formations blow chunks.

There's only a few ways to play Orks, and none of them are my style. But every new release pushes Orks further and further into a 'whats the point' army. I get that everyone needs a bad guy, but let the bad guys win once in awhile.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
For the Orks the thing I hate is how GW seems to think Orks are designed to fail. The RNG tables, the garbage leadership, lack of saves, and lack of killing power all make Orks feel like they are meant to be punching bags instead of a real threat a lot of the time. I wish GW would learn from Relic's interpretation of the Orks because DoW/Space Marine Orks are badasses while also being incredibly colorful, silly, comical, and yet still absolutely brutal at the same time.

For the Tau its the zogging super suits that I feel ruin the whole "combined arms" and "work together to overcome weaknesses" motif that the Tau had going for them. I love Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits, Pathfinders, Hammerheads, and Broadsides because of how each unit plays, what role they serve in the army, and how they all work better when supported by other units and how they support each other. Then there is the Riptide which does the job of basically everything while also being very durable which comes across as just lazy. The Stormsurge + plus all the Forge World gak continues the trend of mecha suits that are bigger and more powerful but ignore the Tau's roots of being combined arms.

While I do agree I don't think the problem at its core is necessarily the riptide. Now am I saying the riptide is fine? Nope but what I am saying is look at how easy access other armies have to strength 8 ap 3+ its ji wonder the riptide and storm surges get used more than crisis suits

Tau were more interesting before they became Codex: SillyBigMecha - when the initial run came about, and suits didn't get bigger than Crisis/Broadside, it was noted/stated that they didn't use bigger suits because they saw them as a waste as resources. If they needed something to defeat a bigger threat, they tailored an aircraft to deal with the situation (which was demonstrated by the Tiger Shark A-X-10, from memory).

That was pretty unique in the setting, and gave them a niche - along with the alien auxiliaries. While I'd still argue the aesthetic didn't really fit in 40k at the time, it wasn't until the Riptide leading the wave of even more blatant anime knock-offs that the race jumped the shark...

TBH the massive Tau suits are a symptom of a wider issue as far as I'm concerned. Coming back to the game after a hiatus since 5th I'm wondering what the hell all these apocalypse units are doing in my infantry skirmish game...

Even with the bigmecha suits I think Tau fit better now than they ever have thanks to the new Orwellian streak they've been given. Much happier now that they've got that little bit more grimdark

morgoth wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Indeed, they are dedicated cc units, but they shouldn't be in cc against anything better than Guardsmen.

They are like the Leman Russ Battle Tank. Another victim of the general power creep.

Except the Leman Russ Battle Tank does not suck balls.

It has 14 front armor, can hide behind an Aegis line and have some decent firepower.

Yes, it's slightly expensive but it does not plain suck. It makes no sense to compare a Leman Russ to Banshees.

You are right, it was unfair. But still, look at say, a riptide: Str, AP, range and ignore cover of his weapon are distributed into 4 different Russes, that AV14 or not are way easier to kill. Str 8 AP3 was hot stuff time ago, now is "meh, good enough I guess", while the rest of your weapons snapshot.
The system fethed over the banshees way more, that's true.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Chaos - The random Chaos boon table. Also that my Warp Talons, who have claws sharp enough to rip apart the very fabric of reality, are only AP3.

Warp Talons:
Can cut through reality itself,
But not through Terminator armor .
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to 40k.

Makes total sense. Terminator armor doesn't actually exist in reality.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Chaos - The random Chaos boon table. Also that my Warp Talons, who have claws sharp enough to rip apart the very fabric of reality, are only AP3.

Warp Talons:
Can cut through reality itself,
But not through Terminator armor .
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to 40k.

Same thing with Thousand sons. Ethereal bolts that pierce every physical barrier, hurting the souls of their target itself!
Yeah... no.

 Pouncey wrote:

Nvs wrote:
*snip*

In short the reason why DE do not have Psykers is because they fear them. They partially blame Psykers for the Fall and knowing how Psykers play with the warp, they don't want them playing in their city in case of a Slannesh invasion. I remember a story where an Archon brought a Psyker into the dark city and Vect immediately exiled his cabal because of it. They don't take chances like that. Never.

Back to OP:

CSM: GW's subtle hints that they admit they can't fully represent CSM with the use of FoC Swapping in a time of Decurions.

Orks: Lack of Invuns. Mob Rule.

Ad. Mech: Two Codex's. I just want a Dominus with legions of Skitarri. I don't want to add in murder servitors adding a points tax to my lists.

Dark Angels; Ravenwing rerollable jink. It just makes me feel dirty to play them so I hardly bring them anymore.

Tau: All the big suits. There was a time when that the fluff indicated such suits would never exist. It was infantry and tanks with a few bits odd units in between.

Imperial Guard: Heavy instead of Lumbering Leman Russ. Heavy Weapon Teams instant death.

Eldar: I just miss 2nd edition eldar. Particularly the fast moving 'you don't get to fight back when I charge' banshees.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
TBH the massive Tau suits are a symptom of a wider issue as far as I'm concerned. Coming back to the game after a hiatus since 5th I'm wondering what the hell all these apocalypse units are doing in my infantry skirmish game...

Even with the bigmecha suits I think Tau fit better now than they ever have thanks to the new Orwellian streak they've been given. Much happier now that they've got that little bit more grimdark

I don't know who told you in 5th that this was an infantry skirmish game. My main army in 5th edition had 10 Leman Russ tanks and nothing else.

Necrons - Like 99% of our named characters & HQ options are finecast resin...... Me & Finecast have a bad history together ahaha

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
TBH the massive Tau suits are a symptom of a wider issue as far as I'm concerned. Coming back to the game after a hiatus since 5th I'm wondering what the hell all these apocalypse units are doing in my infantry skirmish game...

Even with the bigmecha suits I think Tau fit better now than they ever have thanks to the new Orwellian streak they've been given. Much happier now that they've got that little bit more grimdark

I don't know who told you in 5th that this was an infantry skirmish game. My main army in 5th edition had 10 Leman Russ tanks and nothing else.

Ah yes, forgot about the armoured fist lists then. Maybe I was thinking of 3rd?

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Another thing which irritates me to not end with tau
Tau technology is supposed to be solo much more advanced than the imperium with the exception of one thing
They can give any marine veteran either terminator armour or artificer.
Meanwhile the Tau cab only give one guy in the army iridium armour
Like really gw

That's actually something of a misconception; the Tau are not more advanced than the Imperium, its just that due to the differences in logistics, its easier for the Tau to equip their forces with expensive, high tier gear. The Tau army isn't as large as the Imperium's, and they have a smaller empire, allowing for a more even distribution of advanced technologies.
The Imperium has to supply millions of soldiers over great distances with weapons. They need to make something cheap and easy to produce. They do have powerful stuff en par with the Tau, its just they can't give it to everyone.

Think of the pulse rifle as a g11 and the lasgun as an AK47.
You can't supply an army with the g11 but you certainly can with an AK47.

Yes but look at what happens whenever the imperium encounter the Tau they lose. So one could argue their technology is superior look at their plasma weapons for example look at their Ion and Rail technology.
Another case in point is their use of the various battle suits

Any proper encounter? What was warzone Damocles last I checked the tau did technically win there
The imperiums technology isn't reliable unlike the Taus plus for all this plot armour they supposedly have could that be that because unlike the imperium tau actually understand strategy

As far as I know its only the plasma tech that is unreliable, while the lasgun tech is mentionned to be stupidly reliable.

Only because the Imperials had to pull back to deal with the Tyranids.

It wasn't so much a Tau victory as their combatants having something better to do.

The Tau do have plot armor. Whenever they encounter a serious threat, they always get bailed out

The Imperials had to abandon the Damocles Crusade because of Hive Fleet Behemoth, and they thought the nids were a more pressing matter. Think that through for a second; the Tau are so low on the Imperium's list of priorities, that they abandoned a crusade.

The Dark Eldar fought off the Nids for the Tau (cost the Tau a world, but better than extinction)

The necrons fought the tyranids for the Tau (again, cost them a world. Still better than extinction)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
As far as I know its only the plasma tech that is unreliable, while the lasgun tech is mentionned to be stupidly reliable.

Oh yeah, the lasgun is a marvel of engineering.
It takes a lot of power for a laser to kill something, and the lasgun can do that as a small arm. Not to mention it's solar powered

Those fancy pulse rifles are just miniature rail guns. Might seem impressive at first, until you realize that its possible to do with today's tech; all it is is the generation of a magnetic field to propel a projectile. That's easy to do. The problem is that its hard to find a material that's both magnetic and heat resistant, making sustained fire tricky.

The lack of any Atramentar for my Night Lords. ) =

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
TBH the massive Tau suits are a symptom of a wider issue as far as I'm concerned. Coming back to the game after a hiatus since 5th I'm wondering what the hell all these apocalypse units are doing in my infantry skirmish game...

Even with the bigmecha suits I think Tau fit better now than they ever have thanks to the new Orwellian streak they've been given. Much happier now that they've got that little bit more grimdark

I don't know who told you in 5th that this was an infantry skirmish game. My main army in 5th edition had 10 Leman Russ tanks and nothing else.

Ah yes, forgot about the armoured fist lists then. Maybe I was thinking of 3rd?

I played an all-Leman Russ army in 3rd Edition too from Chapter Approved. It had a hilarious rule where if you rolled 3 6s in a row for a weapon that couldn't pierce the tank's armour you got a glancing hit anyways

Favorite army is Deathwing

Least favorite thing, how crappy terminators are

That Space wolves don't really feel like vikings. Give us more axes or a shieldwall rule!

If you want Space Wolves to feel more like Vikings read this: https://ironsleet.com/2016/08/18/saga-of-the-luna-slayer-fenrys-hjolda/

It's utterly brilliant, as is the rest of the Vlka Fenryka posts on Iron Sleet (and the other posts too!).

Either that or start playing Dark Eldar. We're the only army that actually goes 'Viking' in the proper sense

My grey knights generally sucking at everything they do. They are an army of psychers that aren't anywhere near as good as other psyched focused armies. They are all in termie armor and we all know how well that works with all the ap 2 or high volume shots now. And how most of the book is totally useless. We have three units, libbies, bare bone termies, and dreadknights. Now that all being said I still use all my fave stuff like Paladins (who desperately need a small price cut and eternal warrior). Because they are my favorite thing in 40k. But I have to work so hard to do ok with my army and not get wiped in one turn by grav/plasma

This is all from 5th Ed grey Knights. I think they where a step in the right direction being that you could have 14 models and still do well. Really fitting with the fluff. But there was so much rage against their stupid rules in that Ed that GW had to put them in the bottom or risk sales loss from butthurt people quitting.
I imagine the same will happen for eldar. Constant complaints will lead to them being made terrible so people will still want to play. But that's power creep for you.

Oh also just in general not being able to pick powers or warlord traits. Why in the world do I have to randomly generate powers when my whole army is the best psychers in the imperium?

Spartan117xyz wrote:

I imagine the same will happen for eldar. Constant complaints will lead to them being made terrible so people will still want to play. But that's power creep for you.

Do not put money down on that one.