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So i have been playing 40k Again for a few months and been visiting my local store and also local club... so far i have yet to lose a game against my local players.... they use all different armies, demons, marines, nids, chaos etc and i use a Grey knight army.

Some people are avoiding playing me now and not sure how i could tone my army down really since its not anything like a competitive list.

List as follows:

1500 nemesis strike force.

Librarian Level 3
warding staff
cuirass of sacrifice,

10 man terminator squad
2 x psycannons
2 x hammers
combat squad

10 purifiers
combat squad
2 x incinerators
Rhino

10 x interceptors
2 x incinerators
combat squad

1 x nemesis dreadknight
greatsword
psycannon
heavy incinerator.

the guys have a few bits to level out the points but this is basically what i have been using and as mentioned i usually wreck everyone i play against and people are starting to avoid me in my local club and i just want to have fun not particularly win all the time.

Please Advise.

You're playing pure GK, taking ten-man squads, and only using one Dreadknight at 1,500pts. That is checking boxes for the softest list I know how to build, at least in broader metagame.

Can you tell us more about what specific kinds of lists you're seeing, and/or what bits they're complaining about being OP? If we know more about your meta we may be more useful.

It isn't even possible to tone that list in. It's softer than my cats. I have the strangest feeling that your opponents are just casual-at-all-costs players who have no idea how to play the game properly. It's incredibly poor sportsmanship to refuse games just because you've lost.

It seems as if they may just be unfamiliar with Grey Knights. If you don't know how to handle any specific kind of army and you lose to it, you may feel it's a little borked.

Your list is pretty soft comparatively. If you've upset the balance that's not your fault, it wasn't balanced to begin with. Some people get used to winning and everybody likes to think they're winning the right way, but there isn't one. Seems like everybody wants to win but some have problems admitting it.

You could try running a list without the dread knight if it really concerns you but it shouldn't. Still I have a fluffy list and a competitive list too, i do want people to enjoy themselves. I can't remember how many wins or losses I've had so it doesn't really matter. If someone is throwing shade I know it's because they're projecting it.

Let's face it, theyre trumping it. Rigged if they lose, totally legit if they don't.

Well, step 1 is to take Castellan Crowe to go with your Purifiers. 10 Purifiers is a solid 25% of the entire Brotherhood! The boss may as well show up, too. Drop the Librarian, it's far too strong. I guess.

That's... that's the only thing you can do. Maybe drop some interceptors to fit a brotherhood champion in to lead the Terminator squad as a joint-commander with Crowe.

Don't take the Dreadknight unless you're fighting a monstrous creature?

I dunno man, the only things you can really do is come up with a strong fluff reason for each unit being there and if they complain about that there's nothing anybody can do except have THEM come here and get list advice.

It's not worth dumbing yourself down for others. Just wait for someone who's up to the challenge

Maximus Bitch wrote:
It's not worth dumbing yourself down for others. Just wait for someone who's up to the challenge

While that's a respectable approach, it might not be very helpful in this case...


Since most players would enjoy close games or at least be up for a rematch, is your GK list just wiping people off the board in the first few turns? Is the issue that games are repetitive because neither of you change the lineup or mission? I mean, assuming your playing reasonable people it shouldn't be that difficult to tell whats taking the fun out of the game...

If there's no obvious imbalance between the fielded armies perhaps you're just being a bit to loose or meticulous with the rules/measuring etc. for your local player base.

I'm sorry, but I can't see your list stand much of a chance against most semi-competitive lists. It's cool, thematic and fluffy, and not something that should make people not want to play you.

Do you win because you play the missions better? Do they have incredibly bad armies/no knowledge about how to play?

Maybe the local players just aren't that good.

A lot of feedback here that the OP's list is not competitive and the other players are poor sports for refusing games. While I agree, it doesn't help the OP get games. He can sit in the corner and know he is right while everyone else plays or he can look to handicap himself to make things closer.

OP, have you tried handicapping yourself with a points reduction? Or try wasting points on wargear if you don't want it to appear too obvious. How about playing scenarios that don't play to your strengths or are weighted against you?

That is the most chilled list you can put together with the GK unless you maybe ran every possible upgrade on every dude...

Here is a thought. How is your attitude? Maybe it's not the list? What are the players actually complaining about?

You never did say why?

Maybe use them as proxies for Blood Angels?

From the only system of list weighting I know, that list is worth 0 points, i.e. as soft as it gets.

At 1500 points, optimizing for that list weighting system, you can do much stronger lists.

I believe your opponents need to learn at least some list building or basic skills if they have trouble beating you.

Any list that 's even remotely TAC shouldn't have problems having a fair match against yours.

Davor wrote:
Here is a thought. How is your attitude? Maybe it's not the list? What are the players actually complaining about?

You never did say why?

Davor, are you for real? Dear god, he said it twice: he never loses and wrecks the gak out of them. Therefore people are avoiding getting crushed.

" so far i have yet to lose a game against my local players...."

"i usually wreck everyone i play against and people are starting to avoid me in my local club"

I know you like to assume the worst of people but this one comment is ridiculous.

Actually, I think Davor might have a bit of a point. Being the strongest player in your meta does not make you someone to avoid playing. If there are some players that avoid playing you, ask them why. Don't assume it's because you're unbeatable. There's a few possibilities:

#1 - Play Style: You might have a play style that they don't enjoy. For example, they might like playing Kill Teams, or perhaps narrative combats, or whatever. Meanwhile, perhaps you like Maelstrom and Eternal War. Nothing wrong with either approach, but it can cause people to sometimes decline some games.

#2 - Painting: Some people really dislike playing against unpainted stuff. I wouldn't turn down a game, but I still dislike playing against the armies of grey plastic or basecoat.

#3 - Attitude: There is a chance that who they are just doesn't mesh with who you are. It happens.


In any case, you don't know which of the above it could be until you ask them. Once you do, you can change things up. "Oh, you don't like that I'm not playing a CAD? Well sure, I can change that up!" or "Sorry, I didn't realize that (insert behaviour) bothered you. I'll try to keep that under control, because I'd really like to have a game with you."

Change to a long-game strategy. Focus on movement and positioning for the first few turns and take the win at the bottom of the game.

Maybe you will still win, but perhaps they will at least feel they got a game out of it.

Hopefully some of your opponents are currently on internet forums asking for advice on how to beat your GK list.
I lost my first few games quite heavily when I first got back into 40k, I then learnt my armies strengths and weaknesses and my opponents strengths and weaknesses and then won my next few games

When I started 40K, I didn't know what I was doing and got nuked for building stupid lists.

Then I started playing Mechdar, which was weak but already decent in 4th /5th and nobody could beat me.

Then people started mostly complaining and didn't want to play me anymore.

However, I cannot say I always had the best attitude - I don't believe I was an donkey-cave either.

Inquisitor Gumbit wrote:
So i have been playing 40k Again for a few months and been visiting my local store and also local club... so far i have yet to lose a game against my local players.... they use all different armies, demons, marines, nids, chaos etc and i use a Grey knight army.

Some people are avoiding playing me now and not sure how i could tone my army down really since its not anything like a competitive list.

List as follows:

1500 nemesis strike force.

Librarian Level 3
warding staff
cuirass of sacrifice,

10 man terminator squad
2 x psycannons
2 x hammers
combat squad

10 purifiers
combat squad
2 x incinerators
Rhino

10 x interceptors
2 x incinerators
combat squad

1 x nemesis dreadknight
greatsword
psycannon
heavy incinerator.

the guys have a few bits to level out the points but this is basically what i have been using and as mentioned i usually wreck everyone i play against and people are starting to avoid me in my local club and i just want to have fun not particularly win all the time.

Please Advise.

Tell your LGS players to stop complaining?

Short of that, you're doing what you should be. I've run into lists I made at a certain point value that couldn't be touched because the other armies didn't have access to what made them strong. I had a 1250 KDK list that ran two Forgefiends and a Soul Grinder and I would table pretty much everyone. If you really feel that bad though, do you have a second army?

Davor wrote:
Here is a thought. How is your attitude? Maybe it's not the list? What are the players actually complaining about?

You never did say why?

I was going to ask this as well. People don't avoid playing fun players. They avoid playing A-holes.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Davor wrote:
Here is a thought. How is your attitude? Maybe it's not the list? What are the players actually complaining about?

You never did say why?

I was going to ask this as well. People don't avoid playing fun players. They avoid playing A-holes.

A-Holes don't bother asking how to improve either in their social interactions. If you're asking: hey I'm having x-issue, how I'd make this more enjoyable to play against, chances are you're caring about the other side and not be a d-bag.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

Davor wrote:
Here is a thought. How is your attitude? Maybe it's not the list? What are the players actually complaining about?

You never did say why?

I was going to ask this as well. People don't avoid playing fun players. They avoid playing A-holes.

A-Holes don't bother asking how to improve either in their social interactions. If you're asking: hey I'm having x-issue, how I'd make this more enjoyable to play against, chances are you're caring about the other side and not be a d-bag.

If only it were that simple ...

Never understood not wanting to play against 'that guy'

I use it as an opportunity to learn and change my army until I've got something that works

When I first got back into it picked a 40k army....wiped in 3 turns against his Sisters/GK Combo.

Next game - re-wrote my list.... it was literally down to the last Grot/Man!

Does the nemesis strike force get any major buffs? I don't think it gives free stuff but what rules does it give? Maybe use a CAD instead to further nerf your already average list? I really am curious what they're running that they're consistently losing against you, if it's not even close I don't know what's going on. Even my bad lists would at least stand a fair chance against yours.

I guess really just try a CAD or a further un-optimized list, like unnecessary wargear. I'd like to say maybe give them advice on how they could improve their lists but people are often annoyed by that. What format do you play? If it's kill points switch to more objective based games, or use tactical objectives. Would any of them be up for kill team? GK lists are usually pretty weak in it because you'll only have 5 models on the table (exaggeration, but from my experience they really struggle against any decent KT list due to the extremely low model count and limited options, considering they die like normal marines but have fewer models and not much greater damage output outside of CC).

Outside of that I'm really not sure, maybe a slightly more narrative game or a points handicap if they're fine with that, or swap the DK out for some basic guys (if a 10 man squad is similar points value). Bad lists have trouble dealing with MCs and AV14 vehicles (I know this from experience as a bad list user).

 kingbobbito wrote:
Does the nemesis strike force get any major buffs? I don't think it gives free stuff but what rules does it give? Maybe use a CAD instead to further nerf your already average list? I really am curious what they're running that they're consistently losing against you, if it's not even close I don't know what's going on. Even my bad lists would at least stand a fair chance against yours.

I guess really just try a CAD or a further un-optimized list, like unnecessary wargear. I'd like to say maybe give them advice on how they could improve their lists but people are often annoyed by that. What format do you play? If it's kill points switch to more objective based games, or use tactical objectives. Would any of them be up for kill team? GK lists are usually pretty weak in it because you'll only have 5 models on the table (exaggeration, but from my experience they really struggle against any decent KT list due to the extremely low model count and limited options, considering they die like normal marines but have fewer models and not much greater damage output outside of CC).

Outside of that I'm really not sure, maybe a slightly more narrative game or a points handicap if they're fine with that, or swap the DK out for some basic guys (if a 10 man squad is similar points value). Bad lists have trouble dealing with MCs and AV14 vehicles (I know this from experience as a bad list user).

You can deepstrike on turn 1 on a 3+ (so pass reserve roll), can shoot and run, and removes a mandatory troop slot for an elite mandatory slot. BUT, doesn't come with ob-sec at all. He'd actually, discounting for lack of mobility, be stronger, because his termies would be two squads and would get more WC and would have obsec.

You shouldn't call yourself 'that guy', that's a label others assign to you, and it's just as often used to describe a guy who has poor personal hygiene and picks up other people's models with dirty fingers without asking as it is to describe a dominant player who's a cheat or a poor sport. Nobody wants to be 'that guy' and nobody self-conscious enough to worry they might be ever is, not really.

Your best bet is to ask your fellow hobbyists in the store. No need to be awkward about it, a simple 'hey man, if there's something I'm doing that makes you not want to play let me know' will start the conversation, once you know what it is that's bugging them you can start to change it.

Be ready to stand your ground, though... depending on what their complaints are. Someone calling this list a 'power list' might as well be calling it a 'tyranid list'.

OP I you are giving your local community that much trouble, its because you are good. Maybe get drunk before games to dumb yourself down

 Captain Joystick wrote:
You shouldn't call yourself 'that guy', that's a label others assign to you, and it's just as often used to describe a guy who has poor personal hygiene and picks up other people's models with dirty fingers without asking as it is to describe a dominant player who's a cheat or a poor sport.

Your best bet is to ask your fellow hobbyists in the store. No need to be awkward about it, a simple 'hey man, if there's something I'm doing that makes you not want to play let me know' will start the conversation, once you know what it is that's bugging them you can start to change it.

Be ready to stand your ground, though... depending on what their complaints are. Someone calling this list a 'power list' might as well be calling it a 'tyranid list'.

I know full well that. Because I was once labelled as TFG in a store.

Because I ran 10-men squads of noise marines, told me a marine and a tau players. This was october-november 2015 by the way. The thing was that they generally played extremely poor lists and I got a bad rep for "twisting the rules" to my favor for doing things such as:

-telling a guy fleet doesn't let you run and charge anymore.
-telling a guy that units in a formation didn't belong to a CAD so he was going unbound and thus he had no ob-sec.
-telling a guy that, as a witchfire, you had to roll to hit that psychic screech (I don't care if it doesn't have profile, treat it as assault 1, it is a witchfire-and there had been no FAQ yet)
-telling a guy that you can't charge your summoned bloodletters after deestriking them (he played "loyal" guard, by the way).
-saying I got cover for being inside ruins against barrage when I was on the second floor of a third floor building and it was covered.

-my favourite, telling a guy he couldn't have a cover save against a weapon with ignores cover... guy was all like: BUT I'M 25% OBSCURED!! And you can't see this one that you're wounding! Because I was using a blast weapon that clipped a hidden model but clearly saw the target. What he said was literally saying that, as long as the guy that threw it didn't see you, a grenade exploding a feet away from you would not see you. This guy too though that he could shoot me across a solid and intact wall, with no windows, totally ignoring the LoS rules. And I was apparently the guy twisting rules here (yes it began in this example).

In my experience the community isn't always right on a matter

Ok well,

a few examples of recent games, i played an chaos player who used mainly nurgle marines some possessed and a few cultists a hellbrute and typhus, i roll for first turn terminators come in turn 1 i also rolled on santic for psychic and got cleansing flame, the dreadknight shunts forward next to the cultists and everthing else moves up in cover, psychic phase i killed about half the first cultist squad using the librarians cleansing flame (deepstriked in turn 1 with the terminators) the cultists end up running off the board, shooting phase the dreadknight flames the second cultist squad and kills the majority of them and the terminators start shooting the plague marines with typhus in. his turn he moves about shoots everything at the dreadknight causing 1 wound and loses typhus to a perils of the warp roll. on my next turn the purifiers are in range of one marine squad my terminators in the range of another and the dreadknight takes on the hellbrute, terminators shoot and then charge plague marines kill around 6 of the 10 to no losses, dreadknight kills the hellbrute, the purifiers shoot/cleansing flame the other marine squad. by the end of turn 2 he has 2 full units and a few lone survivors and i have lost around 5 marines and a wound on the dreadknight.

Another chaos army used mainly marines with a hellbrute lord and sorceror, i outmatched him in the psychic phase my terminators killed his chosen marines lord and possesed squad, the dreadknight killed half a marine squad and held them in combat for a few turns, the purifiers killed another marine squad whilst the interceptors jumped around the board for objectives. he struggled to kill any of my guys very well he had very few heavy weapons.

Nids never made it to combat with me due to shooting them and lost out totally on the psychic phase,

daemons well grey knights are good against them naturally and he was a really good sport knowing he was likely not going to do very well (have played this guy a few times).

Normal marines fared fairly well focused on the dreadknight turn 1 and reduced him down to 1 would should have killed him but some bad rolls on his part then on my turn i striked the terminators in behind his gun line and from here out he started to lose models fairly fast the dreadknight killed the dreadnought and some marines whilst he focused on my power armor marines killing them all, this was one of the closer battles with only the dreadknight and terminators/librarian surviving.

an ork army i just shot to pieces in turn 2 and when he finnally got into combat he had too few models to effectively kill too many guys.

It is possible they are not used to fighting grey knights i do tend to see very few low AP weapons and they usually struggle most with the DK or the Terminators which most people tend to focus on leaving my power armoured marines untouched to move up the board, again in the psychic phase they are usually rolling with less dice than i can generate which puts them at a disadvantage, I feel they don't like the dreadknight and also the fact i can deepstrike turn 1 and also use the Shunt mechanic to move the interceptors and the dreadknight into their lines to support the terminators....if i roll for first turn i usually do not shunt up and only use terminators deepstrike.