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In the end I think customers lost out on that front because now we have to put up with bloody Orruks instead of Orcs just so GW have a unique name they can claim infringements on.
Not to be a spoilsport, but this is a thing that goes before even AoS (and orruks are about as silly as Ork) considering Imperial guard went to be Astra Militaruma and Stromtroopers would become Tempestus Scions.
oni wrote: Yes... Odd indeed... It's a wonderful thing that we're all lawyers here and root for the underdog regardless if they're wrong.
There's just that one little nagging bit... If Chapterhouse "won" as the Dakka lawyers proclaim, why isn't Chapterhouse still in business?
Hmmm... Oh well, time to move on.
Yeah... Almost as if years of the uncertainty of a court case, travelling to and fro cross country causing massive personal disruption, the associated mental fatigue and ultimately the incredible personal pressure that must have been experienced when GW's lawyers (you know, the lawyers who got caught out actively trying to deceive the court at one point) managed to pull a douche move in freezing all his assets pending a ruling robbed him of any desire to continue with a business that began because of his passion for GW products.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
In the end I think customers lost out on that front because now we have to put up with bloody Orruks instead of Orcs just so GW have a unique name they can claim infringements on.
Not to be a spoilsport, but this is a thing that goes before even AoS (and orruks are about as silly as Ork) considering Imperial guard went to be Astra Militaruma and Stromtroopers would become Tempestus Scions.
Yeah I know, I was just using Orruks as an example, I never said they were the first nor the only example. Probably not even the stupidest example.
But the silly naming seems to pretty much be a response to the CH case, so I feel in that sense the CH case was a loss for the community.
EDIT: And I'd argue Ork isn't nearly as stupid as Orruk because Ork is still pronounced the same as Orc, it just gave a cute distinction between Fantasy Orcs and 40k Orks.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/06 19:48:02
In the end I think customers lost out on that front because now we have to put up with bloody Orruks instead of Orcs just so GW have a unique name they can claim infringements on.
Not to be a spoilsport, but this is a thing that goes before even AoS (and orruks are about as silly as Ork) considering Imperial guard went to be Astra Militaruma and Stromtroopers would become Tempestus Scions.
Yeah I know, I was just using Orruks as an example, I never said they were the first nor the only example. Probably not even the stupidest example.
But the silly naming seems to pretty much be a response to the CH case, so I feel in that sense the CH case was a loss for the community.
EDIT: And I'd argue Ork isn't nearly as stupid as Orruk because Ork is still pronounced the same as Orc, it just gave a cute distinction between Fantasy Orcs and 40k Orks.
I mean, it's just a lazy way of saying: hey it's OUR copyright. Yeah the difference is minimal... so why is there to begin with? At least they try to make a bit of distintion,
But yeah CH did start a whole trend of paranoia from GW. That unhealthy need to copyright everything and their mother. I wouldn't be surprised is Kirby had gotten the idea to terminate fantasy from the unability to properly uphold the copyright there.
But yeah CH did start a whole trend of paranoia from GW. That unhealthy need to copyright everything and their mother. I wouldn't be surprised is Kirby had gotten the idea to terminate fantasy from the unability to properly uphold the copyright there.
He wasn't the first, but he was the most blatant. Scribor and a couple others were already producing stuff for a while at that point. There was a thread on the old Frothers United forum (sadly gone) where he posted some of his goods. He was ragged on because he was basically showing his parts were molds from GW plastics with greenstuff on them, but also he was told that he shouldn't directly reference GW names. Just refer to them as "space knights" like everyone else did and GW would have zero grounds for going after him. He didn't and GW had an opening. Rumor was GW was hoping that the judgements against Chapterhouse would give them grounds to go after the other sites.
Fortunately it didn't work for the most part and the idiots who had that idea are gone now.
Did you have a recent order fulfilled? If so, how long was the time between order placement and receipt of the goods? Also, was there any communication from CH's part throughout the order process?
Not meaning to batter you with questions, just wasn't sure how to interpret your post.
The Chapterhouse case was never actually about Chapterhouse, for anyone. Except for Nick.
Nick was trying to keep his business alive.
Everyone else involved, everyone, had an agenda. For a lot of folks, the lawsuit was about our tiny slice of the table top games market and who got to control it.
'We' won that fight.
If you are a fan of the direction GW has gone in recently, you quite literally have the Chapterhouse lawsuit to thank.
If you are a fan of the myriad small companies like Anvil Industries, Scibor, and Max Mini that make our little market healthy and diverse, you have the Chapterhouse lawsuit to thank.
GW was on a campaign to strangle market growth with FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Whatever kind of guy Nick Villacci was or is, whatever he did that was 'wrong' or 'stupid' or 'irresponsible', he stood up to GW.
His stand allowed the creation of an unprecedented test case, not only in the table top gaming market, but unprecedented in intellectual property litigation and United States civil litigation writ large.
But nobody wins in a lawsuit. That's just a sad fact. A massive amount of good came out of the GW v Chapterouse case, and we will be feeling its effects for years and years to come.
But nobody party to the case really wins.
GW didn't win, and neither did Chapterhouse. Nick got a massive amount of help, and got years of continued business out of the lawsuit. But he also got used, hard. He knew it, he understood the situation, and he could have backed out at any time.
But because he stayed in for as long as he did, 'we', as in all of us regular folks who love this hobby, were able to reap massive rewards from the case. You may disagree, you may never realize it, but you're reaping the rewards of that case today.
Nick didn't do it for you. He did it for himself, and GW didn't give him any options. But he did it.
He went trough the stress and the anxiety, he went through endless hours of documents and preparation, he went through depositions, he went through public scorn, he listened to people he didn't know calling him a liar and a thief, he went through frustrating and fruitless negotiations over and over, and we went through a weeks-long trial.
He lost his marriage and his house and his business and his friends, and you don't have to feel sorry for him. You don't have to like him.
But he lost, and you gained. And a lot of people did a lot of hard work to make sure that happened, because they wanted to take that gackstorm and make something good out of it.
Which was easy, because Nick was paying the price.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/06 22:01:05
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
The Chapterhouse case was never actually about Chapterhouse, for anyone. Except for Nick.
Nick was trying to keep his business alive.
Everyone else involved, everyone, had an agenda. For a lot of folks, the lawsuit was about our tiny slice of the table top games market and who got to control it.
'We' won that fight.
If you are a fan of the direction GW has gone in recently, you quite literally have the Chapterhouse lawsuit to thank.
If you are a fan of the myriad small companies like Anvil Industries, Scibor, and Max Mini that make our little market healthy and diverse, you have the Chapterhouse lawsuit to thank.
GW was on a campaign to strangle market growth with FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Whatever kind of guy Nick Villacci was or is, whatever he did that was 'wrong' or 'stupid' or 'irresponsible', he stood up to GW.
His stand allowed the creation of an unprecedented test case, not only in the table top gaming market, but unprecedented in intellectual property litigation and United States civil litigation writ large.
But nobody wins in a lawsuit. That's just a sad fact. A massive amount of good came out of the GW v Chapterouse case, and we will be feeling its effects for years and years to come.
But nobody party to the case really wins.
GW didn't win, and neither did Chapterhouse. Nick got a massive amount of help, and got years of continued business out of the lawsuit. But he also got used, hard. He knew it, he understood the situation, and he could have backed out at any time.
But because he stayed in for as long as he did, 'we', as in all of us regular folks who love this hobby, were able to reap massive rewards from the case. You may disagree, you may never realize it, but you're reaping the rewards of that case today.
Nick didn't do it for you. He did it for himself, and GW didn't give him any options. But he did it.
He went trough the stress and the anxiety, he went through endless hours of documents and preparation, he went through depositions, he went through public scorn, he listened to people he didn't know calling him a liar and a thief, he went through frustrating and fruitless negotiations over and over, and we went through a weeks-long trial.
He lost his marriage and his house and his business and his friends, and you don't have to feel sorry for him. You don't have to like him.
But he lost, and you gained. And a lot of people did a lot of hard work to make sure that happened, because they wanted to take that gackstorm and make something good out of it.
Which was easy, because Nick was paying the price.
Very well said. Thing is he can just shut the site down. If he can't do it because he doesn't own the site anymore he should say something because he was a hero for lots, and now his name is being dragged in the mud. I really hate to see his name being dragged like this for a lot of good he has done.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Very well said. Thing is he can just shut the site down. If he can't do it because he doesn't own the site anymore he should say something because he was a hero for lots, and now his name is being dragged in the mud. I really hate to see his name being dragged like this for a lot of good he has done.
If all the crap that weeble mentioned has happened to him, he might not a roof over his head right now, let alone internet access.
I'm not really convinced we won a big fight. It might have had larger implications to general IP laws, but in the context of wargaming the biggest win was probably GW stopped IP bullying smaller companies. But that doesn't have a huge effect on your average wargamer.
Other than that it just caused GW to rename all their junk to stuff they could defend, which I despise, I throw up a little in my mouth every time I hear the word "Aelf" or see a "Y" in place of an "I".
I guess it did also legitimise bit seller's ability to make "parts that are compatible with XXXX", but really it's just sad we needed a lawsuit for that to be obvious when outside of miniatures 3rd part companies have been making upgrades for other company's products since forever.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
I believe Nick's lawyers were pro bono, so unless GW had to pay Nick's fees they probably didn't come off brilliantly (not sure if they did or didn't).
GW's got paid but I believe they're employed in-house and would get paid the same regardless of if they go to court or stay in their offices sending out C&D's or whatever they normally did.
Chapterhouse's representation worked pro-bono I believe but presumably the individual lawyers were compensated somehow by whomever were interested in this case going through court and creating a precedent. (Though perhaps the lawyers were just hard-core tabletop wargame fans interested in 3rd party miniature companies right to ply their business )
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/06 23:47:56
GW's got paid but I believe they're employed in-house and would get paid the same regardless of if they go to court or stay in their offices sending out C&D's or whatever they normally did.
Chapterhouse's representation worked pro-bono I believe but presumably the individual lawyers were compensated somehow by whomever were interested in this case going through court and creating a precedent. (Though perhaps the lawyers were just hard-core tabletop wargame fans interested in 3rd party miniature companies right to ply their business )
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe weeble1000 or one of the other Dakka lawyers mentioned at the time of the case that CH's pro-bono representation was a result of the ramifications GW's suit would have on the law firms other, larger (and paying) clients. So it was in the pro-bono firm's interest to represent CH and make sure that GW didn't steamroll over them.
GW's got paid but I believe they're employed in-house and would get paid the same regardless of if they go to court or stay in their offices sending out C&D's or whatever they normally did.
Chapterhouse's representation worked pro-bono I believe but presumably the individual lawyers were compensated somehow by whomever were interested in this case going through court and creating a precedent. (Though perhaps the lawyers were just hard-core tabletop wargame fans interested in 3rd party miniature companies right to ply their business )
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe weeble1000 or one of the other Dakka lawyers mentioned at the time of the case that CH's pro-bono representation was a result of the ramifications GW's suit would have on the law firms other, larger (and paying) clients. So it was in the pro-bono firm's interest to represent CH and make sure that GW didn't steamroll over them.
Yea, something like that. So the law-firm ate the cost of representing Chapterhouse.
Since GW lost the majority of their claims they'd have to cover part of the opposite sides costs (assuming this works the same in the US). And of course, we'll probably never know what terms were reached in the settlement.
I believe Nick's lawyers were pro bono, so unless GW had to pay Nick's fees they probably didn't come off brilliantly (not sure if they did or didn't).
Even if they pro bono lawyers didn't get paid, I am sure saying "We took on Games Workshop and won" while nobody else could is a huge win for them. Have that on your resume. Yeah they diffidently came out brilliantly.
Very well said. Thing is he can just shut the site down. If he can't do it because he doesn't own the site anymore he should say something because he was a hero for lots, and now his name is being dragged in the mud. I really hate to see his name being dragged like this for a lot of good he has done.
If all the crap that weeble mentioned has happened to him, he might not a roof over his head right now, let alone internet access.
True. Never thought of that. Just so use to everyone having a cell phone no matter what your situation is, it didn't occur to me. Even someone who is poor still has a cell phone. Looks like I thought wrong again. Good point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/07 00:44:59
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
I believe Nick's lawyers were pro bono, so unless GW had to pay Nick's fees they probably didn't come off brilliantly (not sure if they did or didn't).
Even if they pro bono lawyers didn't get paid, I am sure saying "We took on Games Workshop and won" while nobody else could is a huge win for them. Have that on your resume. Yeah they diffidently came out brilliantly.
It's more no one else had incentive to try. Prior to that most of GW's bullying was sending out C&D letters, the other time it came in to the public eye was with "Spot the Space Marine" which never went to court, it was a stupid C&D letter GW sent to Amazon and after some bigger internet names got behind it, Amazon folded and GW didn't take it any further).
When you think about it, the points they "won" were all pretty logical. It wasn't a 100% win, from memory GW won about 1/3 of the copyright claims they made (which involved using names that could be seen as trademarks like "doomseer") while they lost claims that were very general (like "jetbike" and "lizard ogre") and lost claims where CH were just using the name to a part was compatible with a GW trademark rather than actually pretending to be the GW trademark. All told CHS still had to pay $25k in damages (a big improvement from the $400k they were intially trying to get, but still shows CHS were in the wrong in areas, just GW was over reaching trying to claim things that were rather generic or trying to stop people using trademarks to advertise accessories the same way a car manufacturer is allowed to use the word "Honda" to sell parts made for a Honda).
silent25 wrote:If all the crap that weeble mentioned has happened to him, he might not a roof over his head right now, let alone internet access.
True. Never thought of that. Just so use to everyone having a cell phone no matter what your situation is, it didn't occur to me. Even someone who is poor still has a cell phone. Looks like I thought wrong again. Good point.
Maybe he fell in to a pit of depression but the losses weren't enough to have driven him to the point of not having a cell phone to be able to connect to maccas free wifi.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/07 01:00:54
The Chapterhouse lawyers were all pro-bono. That means free, especially in a case where the defendant had little recourse to collect damages of any kind.
Of course, nobody really does anything for free. There were lots of reasons to take the case.
Make precedent, get trial experience, prop up the firm's pro-bono hours, etc., etc. Lots and lots of reasons, but at the end of the day, you never really do a pro-bono case you don't believe in.
GW was making a mockery of intellectual property law. GW was engaging in abusive litigation. GW was manipulating the legal system to cause harm. Generally-speaking, that kind of behavior rubs lawyers the wrong way.
And because of the way GW made its claims, new legal questions were being raised, in a venue with a persuasive record on copyright and trademark law. There was an opportunity to make new case law. And there was an opportunity to do some good at the same time.
Keep in mind here that GW v CHS has literally been hailed as breaking new ground in US civil litigation. It was previously almost unheard of for non-indigent defendants to get pro-bono representation. And Chapterhouse Studios was not indigent, merely completely unequipped to respond to the complaint in any meaningful way, which is just as good as being indigent in every way that matters.
The Chapterhouse lawyers were all taking a risk, doing something that just wasn't done. Thousands upon thousands of non-billable hours, including a two-week trial, all for a client with a regular cashflow. And these were lawyers from some of the top firms in the country, firms where you don't get a ribbon for second place, and where you are expected to have a book of paying business if you want to stick around.
And what I said about Nick is true. You can't attribute all of it directly to the litigation, but let me tell you that there's little else more stressful to yourself and your family than high-stakes litigation.
And the man should shut down his damn webstore if he's not in business. It's easy as pie. And anybody who runs afoul of that ought to be pissed off.
But that has not a thing in the world to do with the GW v CHS case. Not a darn thing.
I know because I was there. I was there longer than any lawyer Nick ever had. I wasn't there because Nick is a nice guy. I wasn't there because I wanted to help out a friend.
I was there because I read GW's complaint. I was there because it was plain as day what GW had planned.
And if you think the GW v CHS case isn't a big deal, it's because you don't appreciate how bad things could have gotten without it.
So, be mad at Nick because he's a jerk. Be mad at him for being irresponsible with his webstore. Be mad at him for all the times he crossed the line with his business. But thank him for being the one who allowed the GW v CHS case to happen, even if he didn't do it for you.
Because I did it for you, and I couldn't have done it without Nick.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/07 01:06:49
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
AllSeeingSkink wrote: And I'd argue Ork isn't nearly as stupid as Orruk because Ork is still pronounced the same as Orc, it just gave a cute distinction between Fantasy Orcs and 40k Orks.
It has always been 'Ork' in German since Tolkien - make of that what you will (while looking at the various Orks with german helmets in the Rogue Trader book). Btw, you can pronounce Orruk and even Uruk as Orc/Ork too.
I gave them a call a couple hours ago to see if he was still running, and that I'd like to make an order for some of the heresy stuff wished him a merry chrstmas and a happy new year, but it seems like he's not any more by reading all this....sucks alot
AllSeeingSkink wrote: And I'd argue Ork isn't nearly as stupid as Orruk because Ork is still pronounced the same as Orc, it just gave a cute distinction between Fantasy Orcs and 40k Orks.
It has always been 'Ork' in German since Tolkien - make of that what you will (while looking at the various Orks with german helmets in the Rogue Trader book). Btw, you can pronounce Orruk and even Uruk as Orc/Ork too.
Interesting. I've not heard the Tolkienesque "Uruk" pronounced as "Orc" before.
As for the spelling of Ork, I just assumed (GW being a UK company) that it was based on how a barely literate soccer hooligan 40k Orc would write their own name. As in, "Ork" is how an Orc would write it rather than how an oomie would write it (like Mek, Shokk, Rokkit, Killa Kans, DeffKopta, Kaptin, etc etc, Orks love their k's).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/07 02:08:25
AllSeeingSkink wrote: And I'd argue Ork isn't nearly as stupid as Orruk because Ork is still pronounced the same as Orc, it just gave a cute distinction between Fantasy Orcs and 40k Orks.
It has always been 'Ork' in German since Tolkien - make of that what you will (while looking at the various Orks with german helmets in the Rogue Trader book). Btw, you can pronounce Orruk and even Uruk as Orc/Ork too.
Interesting. I've not heard the Tolkienesque "Uruk" pronounced as "Orc" before.
It's easier if you're German. Just don't accent the vocals and don't speak the u like you. I don't know how Tolkien pronounced it, but with his background concerning languages I guess he played with the possibilities.
As for the spelling of Ork, I just assumed (GW being a UK company) that it was based on how a barely literate soccer hooligan 40k Orc would write their own name. As in, "Ork" is how an Orc would write it rather than how an oomie would write it (like Mek, Shokk, Rokkit, Killa Kans, DeffKopta, Kaptin, etc etc, Orks love their k's).
Well, when they were introduced in 40k they hadn't those specific names - they were just warlike and primitive slavedrivers and several miniatures/artworks had the archetypical 'Stahlhelm'. and/or 'Pickelhaube'. So I think there was some 'influence' (with GW being an ENGLISH company ). Of course there may be other reasons why they chose the 'K'.
Depression can do very strange things to a person - things that you know are important get shunted back, and the longer you shunt them back the easier it becomes to keep shunting them back, and the harder it becomes to move forward and fix the problems.
My wife, my best friend in my entire world, was just crawling out of depression when we met - she had been raped four years before then, and it took that long for her to recover enough to even want to start moving forward again.
This lawsuit was traumatic - and ended up costing him a lot more than just time and money.
I hope that he can get back on track, but I know just how hard it is going to be for him to do so.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Depression can do very strange things to a person - things that you know are important get shunted back, and the longer you shunt them back the easier it becomes to keep shunting them back, and the harder it becomes to move forward and fix the problems.
My wife, my best friend in my entire world, was just crawling out of depression when we met - she had been raped four years before then, and it took that long for her to recover enough to even want to start moving forward again.
This lawsuit was traumatic - and ended up costing him a lot more than just time and money.
I hope that he can get back on track, but I know just how hard it is going to be for him to do so.
The Auld Grump
If I had to guess I would go with this. Depression basically means all you can see is the mountain and can't even focus on the little steps right in front of you.
Really hope the best for him, if someone actually knows him maybe they can give him a ping and make sure all is well. Maybe even point him to this thread to let him know people are still thinking about him and what he went through with all this!
)
Just don't accent the vocals and don't speak the u like you. I don't know how Tolkien pronounced it, but with his background concerning languages I guess he played with the possibilities.
