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 Eilif wrote:
Was horrified to read about this. They held this poor man about a mile from my home.

Here's to hoping the victim recovers. Especially emotionally.

Yeah. That's gonna have got them in a bad place. Hope they get the help they need.

And also that the scumbags, go to jails where they know they tortured someone who was a vulnerable adult.
I'm sure that go down well.

 Peregrine wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
That's because premeditated murder usually carries a large degree of malicious forethought on the killers part. Crimes of passion (which is what a lot of second-degree murder cases involve) are usually done in "the heat of the moment".

Yes, that's kind of the point here. The difference depends not on the physical evidence or facts of the crime, but on the killer's personal thoughts before committing it. If hate crime laws are "thought crime" then so is the difference between first and second degree murder.

My understanding is the difference is motive vs intent.

1st degree vs 2nd degree is a difference in intent.

Hate crime vs not hate crime is a difference in motive.

You can support varying punishment for varying intent (1st degree murder vs 2nd degree) without supporting varying punishment for varying motive (hate crime vs not a hate crime).

It's like murdering your wife for not making you a sandwich vs sleeping with your best friend (motive) or murdering your wife in the heat of passion for not making you a sandwich vs planning weeks in advance that you'd kill her for not making you a sandwich (intent).

Personally I think motive is important, but not something we should be building laws around but intent is, ie. it doesn't matter if you were motivated by the sandwich or infidelity to kill your wide, but it does matter that you planned in advance to kill her.

Intent is more solid ground to stand on and if you can prove malicious intent then I don't think it's necessary to try and legislate based on motive which are murkier depths and more prone to bias rather than evenly applying the law.

But I'm not a lawyer so maybe I have the terminology wrong.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
That's because premeditated murder usually carries a large degree of malicious forethought on the killers part. Crimes of passion (which is what a lot of second-degree murder cases involve) are usually done in "the heat of the moment".

Yes, that's kind of the point here. The difference depends not on the physical evidence or facts of the crime, but on the killer's personal thoughts before committing it. If hate crime laws are "thought crime" then so is the difference between first and second degree murder.

My understanding is the difference is motive vs intent.

1st degree vs 2nd degree is a difference in intent.

Hate crime vs not hate crime is a difference in motive.

You can support varying punishment for varying intent (1st degree murder vs 2nd degree) without supporting varying punishment for varying motive (hate crime vs not a hate crime).

It's like murdering your wife for not making you a sandwich vs sleeping with your best friend (motive) or murdering your wife in the heat of passion for not making you a sandwich vs planning weeks in advance that you'd kill her for not making you a sandwich (intent).

Personally I think motive is important, but not something we should be building laws around but intent is, ie. it doesn't matter if you were motivated by the sandwich or infidelity to kill your wide, but it does matter that you planned in advance to kill her.

But I'm not a lawyer so maybe I have the terminology wrong.

But then the difference between murder 2 and voluntary manslaughter can come down to motive.
Starting a bar fight and killing a guy in the heat of it = 2nd degree murder
Starting a bar fight after you discover a guy was sleeping with your wife and killing him in the heat of it = voluntary manslaughter.

So in your examples killing your wife for not making a sandwich would be 2nd degree murder for sure whereas killing her for sleeping with your best friend could be voluntary manslaughter (provided you did it pretty much immediately upon finding out so didn't have time to cool off).

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
But then the difference between murder 2 and voluntary manslaughter can come down to motive.
Starting a bar fight and killing a guy in the heat of it = 2nd degree murder
Starting a bar fight after you discover a guy was sleeping with your wife and killing him in the heat of it = voluntary manslaughter.

So in your examples killing your wife for not making a sandwich would be 2nd degree murder for sure whereas killing her for sleeping with your best friend could be voluntary manslaughter (provided you did it pretty much immediately upon finding out so didn't have time to cool off).

Mmmm, I guess that's true to an extent but I still think it's different enough from "hate crimes" to not necessarily draw a parallel.

My understanding is involuntary manslaughter is a concession to the fact humans are emotional beings and that is used somewhat as justification and thus reduces the sentence.

It's not really the same as saying someone's crime is worse because they did it because of the victim's skin colour rather than because they didn't like the way the victim looked at them.

If you torture someone, does it really matter that you tortured them because of the colour of their skin or because they looked at you funny? I don't think it does really. To say it's worse because it was racially or politically motivated is to simultaneously say that someone who was tortured for no reason what has somehow had less of a crime committed against them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
That's because premeditated murder usually carries a large degree of malicious forethought on the killers part. Crimes of passion (which is what a lot of second-degree murder cases involve) are usually done in "the heat of the moment".

Yes, that's kind of the point here. The difference depends not on the physical evidence or facts of the crime, but on the killer's personal thoughts before committing it. If hate crime laws are "thought crime" then so is the difference between first and second degree murder.

Not really. To prove 1st degree generally the prosecution has to show actions proving premeditation. The actions of going out to buy a barrel of acid, duct tape, plastic sheeting, writing a blog post declaring your intent or so on. Going well outside your normal route/pattern to commit the murder. Asking your buddy for a gun so you can go cap someone. Actions. If they can't prove the premeditation by showing actions the perp committed, the jury generally won't convict on the charge of 1st Degree. It is the actions, not thoughts, that make it premeditation in most cases.

I fully agree with those thoughts of separate jails where it leaks out why they're there. Let inmate justice be done.

Bail is denied.

In addition one of the suspects had demanded $300 from the victim’s mother for his return.

More info how the victim escaped.... evidently a downstairs neighbor heard the fighting and threatened to call the police. Two of the suspects went to the neighbor’s door and broke it down. That apparently was when the victim was able to get away.

I'm assuming the neighbor is the one who called the police.

These four are truly deplorable.

Asking for ransom adds time to the sentence (at least under federal sentencing guidelines).

Hello, gentlemen. These are your cages, these are the keys. Say good-bye to the keys as you won't be seeing them again.

Hopefully these scumbags end up picking up a LOT of soap in prison. Beating up a disabled person will make them really popular in prison, either as punching bags or... well, use your imagination.

Death's too good for them.

I can't believe the restraint from the kid's family. My wife and I are both people of faith, but I can't imagine my response if anything like this ever happened to our son... Godspeed to them all and the boy's healing.

 BigWaaagh wrote:
Hello, gentlemen. These are your cages, these are the keys. Say good-bye to the keys as you won't be seeing them again.

Don't forget to introduce them to "Bubba" before he introduces himself.

Realistically, I think that they will get somewhere around a 12 year sentence. That means they could be eligible for parole in 6 years. My best bet anyway.

At least it took until page 3 for the rape-revenge fantasies to start. I guess we're improving.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
At least it took until page 3 for the rape-revenge fantasies to start. I guess we're improving.

I believe you mispelled justice.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
At least it took until page 3 for the rape-revenge fantasies to start. I guess we're improving.

I believe you mispelled justice.

Not a fantasy. More a shrug and leave the jail to it.

Just separate jails. Wait till what they did is found out and whatever happens happens.
Even people In prision. Some things even among convicted criminals is considered low and wrong. A theif is one thing.

A torturer of a disabled person.. That's pretty damn low.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It's terrible, and from what I read, the victim is seriously affected. Those men are a danger to society and should be locked away for a very long time imo.

Personally, I'm in favour of giving them a nice sunny wall to stand in front of. And a cigarette.

Perhaps a blindfold to keep the sun out of their eyes?

If they'd like. I'm not vindictive. (But I do want to be 100% sure they'll never do something like this again.)

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
At least it took until page 3 for the rape-revenge fantasies to start. I guess we're improving.

I believe you mispelled justice.

Interesting to note that some people consider rape to be 'justice'.

It's horrible that people would do something like that. I'm glad they'll be going to prison.

Sigh, it was a joke. Anyway, yeah, I'm sure prison-justice will do something about this and these 4 won't hurt anyone ever again.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Sigh, it was a joke. Anyway, yeah, I'm sure prison-justice will do something about this and these 4 won't hurt anyone ever again.

Or make them bitter and instil more mental illness and more likely to reoffend when they get out.

See above about things even inmates won't tolerate. Prison justice means they won't get an opportunity to hurt others.

Yeah, because they're so fething well-adjusted now.

I'd say anyone doing what they did was beyond rehabilitation.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Sigh, it was a joke. Anyway, yeah, I'm sure prison-justice will do something about this and these 4 won't hurt anyone ever again.

Or make them bitter and instil more mental illness and more likely to reoffend when they get out.

There psychopaths already. Already gone from thought to acting upon torture.
They already crossed that line. They did it..

Someone may think bad things.. Everyone does. But however. They do not act upon them.
however they went the hell of the way and did it.

They need locking up for publics own safety.
What happens in jail is there fault for doing such a savage crime.

 jhe90 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Sigh, it was a joke. Anyway, yeah, I'm sure prison-justice will do something about this and these 4 won't hurt anyone ever again.

Or make them bitter and instil more mental illness and more likely to reoffend when they get out.

There psychopaths already. Already gone from thought to acting upon torture.
They already crossed that line. They did it..

Someone may think bad things.. Everyone does. But however. They do not act upon them.
however they went the hell of the way and did it.

They need locking up for publics own safety.
What happens in jail is there fault for doing such a savage crime.

Unless you're trying to suggest they'll get murdered in jail or debilitated beyond functioning, they'll probably be out roaming the streets again in a few years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I'd say anyone doing what they did was beyond rehabilitation.

And I'd say that attitude is one of many things wrong with the US prison system

I'm not trying to defend the actions of these people, but they are still *people* and unless they get life sentences they are going to be reintegrated in to society at some point.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Sigh, it was a joke. Anyway, yeah, I'm sure prison-justice will do something about this and these 4 won't hurt anyone ever again.

Or make them bitter and instil more mental illness and more likely to reoffend when they get out.

There psychopaths already. Already gone from thought to acting upon torture.
They already crossed that line. They did it..

Someone may think bad things.. Everyone does. But however. They do not act upon them.
however they went the hell of the way and did it.

They need locking up for publics own safety.
What happens in jail is there fault for doing such a savage crime.

Unless you're trying to suggest they'll get murdered in jail, they'll probably be out roaming the streets again in a few years.

They did that crime of own free will, if that causes them to have a hard life in jail then Tha is no fault other than there own.

Like wise if they live and die by the sword. They chose to pick up that sword. No one forced them.

Whatever they did. And whatever happens in consequence is no one to blame but themselves.

"people" yes.

. Decency or morality no. They are of the lowest class of "people"

If I recall all of them were over eighteen so I doubt that any of them will be out "in a few years" as they are considered adults for trial and sentencing. Considering the charges and evidence they won''t be out of prison for quite some time.

 jhe90 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Sigh, it was a joke. Anyway, yeah, I'm sure prison-justice will do something about this and these 4 won't hurt anyone ever again.

Or make them bitter and instil more mental illness and more likely to reoffend when they get out.

There psychopaths already. Already gone from thought to acting upon torture.
They already crossed that line. They did it..

Someone may think bad things.. Everyone does. But however. They do not act upon them.
however they went the hell of the way and did it.

They need locking up for publics own safety.
What happens in jail is there fault for doing such a savage crime.

Unless you're trying to suggest they'll get murdered in jail, they'll probably be out roaming the streets again in a few years.

They did that crime of own free will, if that causes them to have a hard life in jail then Tha is no fault other than there own.

Like wise if they live and die by the sword. They chose to pick up that sword. No one forced them.

Whatever they did. And whatever happens in consequence is no one to blame but themselves.

And now we're pretending that prison violence isn't the fault of the people actually performing the violence. The mental hoops are astounding.

Here's an idea for a more fitting punishment...

Make a recording of the victim impact statement of the victim and his family.
Play that recording in their cells on a loop for an hour, twice a day, in the morning and before curfew, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Force them to watch it.
Give them copies of the victims family albums and home videos.
Keep them in regular solitary, and severely restrict their access to luxuries. Relaxation of these conditions will be subject to long term good behaviour and psychological rehabilitation.

Force them to really get to know their victim and his family, and the effect their actions had on them. Let them stew on what they've done until the day they're released.

None of them should be permitted to ever walk free until they've repented. (As in, become remorseful for what they did, not in the religious sense).

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
At least it took until page 3 for the rape-revenge fantasies to start. I guess we're improving.

I believe you mispelled justice.

Extra-judicial justive, because for some reason your judicial system is unable to inflict justice in a non-hypocritical way? Why is that? I really wonder, why do you think that "cruel and unusual punishment" such as, uh, corrective rape, are explicitely forbidden by law?

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
At least it took until page 3 for the rape-revenge fantasies to start. I guess we're improving.

I believe you mispelled justice.

Have an exalt you beautiful person.

I wonder though, since those who attack children are widely considered to be scum even in prison, if it wouldn't be worth announcing to general population that these people fethed with a kid. They go to prison which satisfies the law, prison takes care of the rest, which satisfies the people.