Allowing custom units, models on table

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**Lord Xcapobl**

I have had ample times where my opponent and I did switch armies, including lovingly painted and converted ones.
Just because any reasonable person would know what "handle with care" means.

**Dakka Wolf**

Peregrine wrote:
Lord Xcapobl wrote:
I had similar experiences over the years I have been playing WH40K. One time, I met a player who was very adamant about his new creation, practically needing to play it. I would allow his creation on one simple condition. He agreed before I could even explain said condition. So, basically, we set up, and after determining everything else, I simply reminded him of the deal. I told him to switch sides. Me playing his army, him playing mine. I then got a rather emotional rant about how my army would never stand a chance against his and the deal being unfair. I asked why it would be unfair, his custom models and rules were mentioned. I reminded him about the agreement on the extra condition, which turned out to be him playing against his own custom unit. That was his que to pack and leave, where some name-calling was aimed at me. Other people present were likely as surprised as me, or even more so as they wouldn't have allowed that custom unit in the first place.

TBH, you were the one at fault here. A reasonable person would know that, in a game like 40k where personalizing your army is so important, being expected to switch sides and let your opponent use your army is a big deal. I would never agree to let someone handle the expensive and fragile models I've put so many hours into painting, and many people have similar feelings on the subject. You knew your opponent was likely to object, you had plenty of opportunities to inform your opponent of this detail before that point, and you decided to wait until the last minute to reveal the surprise. That's exceptionally poor behavior and I wouldn't be interested at all in playing a game against you in the future.

I kind of disagree on this.
I think it's pretty reasonable for somebody to have to play against their custom units, I think the timing was a bit cracked, not being able to play your latest concoction first sucks but nothing has been said on the power of said unit, if he saw it was an overpowered wishlist piece I think his request was pretty fair and agreeing to a request before knowing what it is has never been a great idea.
The big question is what would Lord Xcapobl have done if his opponent still agreed with the request.

**Peregrine**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
I think it's pretty reasonable for somebody to have to play against their custom units

It's reasonable to ask for that. It's not reasonable to surprise someone with that demand after they've already set up the game, especially when you're thinking "lol I'm so clever" about it as you're hiding the surprise. If you insist on playing with my army as a condition of allowing a custom unit then tell me up front so I can decline the game without wasting my time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Xcapobl wrote:
I have had ample times where my opponent and I did switch armies, including lovingly painted and converted ones.
Just because any reasonable person would know what "handle with care" means.

And that's your right to do that. However, many people do not allow it and it's a well-known fact that many people don't like to let anyone else use their armies. I have a strict "hell no" policy about letting anyone use my army, and I don't even like it when people try to help by moving my models for me. If you waste my time by waiting until everything is set up to demand to use my army I'm going to pack up and never play you again, and I'm probably going to warn other people to stay away from you.

**Dakka Wolf**

Peregrine wrote:
Dakka Wolf wrote:
I think it's pretty reasonable for somebody to have to play against their custom units

It's reasonable to ask for that. It's not reasonable to surprise someone with that demand after they've already set up the game, especially when you're thinking "lol I'm so clever" about it as you're hiding the surprise. If you insist on playing with my army as a condition of allowing a custom unit then tell me up front so I can decline the game without wasting my time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Xcapobl wrote:
I have had ample times where my opponent and I did switch armies, including lovingly painted and converted ones.
Just because any reasonable person would know what "handle with care" means.

And that's your right to do that. However, many people do not allow it and it's a well-known fact that many people don't like to let anyone else use their armies. I have a strict "hell no" policy about letting anyone use my army, and I don't even like it when people try to help by moving my models for me. If you waste my time by waiting until everything is set up to demand to use my army I'm going to pack up and never play you again, and I'm probably going to warn other people to stay away from you.

Like I said,

the timing was a bit cracked

but so is agreeing to anything before finding out what 'anything' might entail.
If he'd said 'yeah, sure - lets switch' I'm pretty sure the answer for most people would be 'I'm kidding. Just wanted to see if you'd be willing to play against that thing'.

**Lord Xcapobl**

If he agreed to play, I would have played. And offered a return match the way he envisioned it. Perhaps discussed with him what was overpowered, or indeed underwhelming about his unit.
A unit that, if I recall correctly after all those years, was an elite Space Marine jump pack assault unit that didn't scatter from deep strike, allowed a charge move on the turn it came on the board, and had a +2 Strength on top of the +2 attacks for a charge, while eacj and every model had the stat line and equipment options for veteran sergeants plus an extra attack for their Terminator Honours... about six years before GW even first anounced Vanguard Veterans for Space Marines.

On top of that, I didn't get to be a responsible 42 years old adult with a healthy respect for other people's' property, by being "lol I'm so clever". But I did by showing a healthy respect for other peoples' property... and allowing one to finish his sentence so he doesn't 'get the drop on me later' with unspecified conditions.

Questions for Peregrine, perhaps you missed me writing about how he never even gave me the chance to explain my condition? Which I did write down? ( "He agreed before I could even explain said condition" )
Also, I do think I was clear about the fact that this person didn't bail out because 'I wasn't allowed to play with his toy soldiers, perhaps out of fear of damage to paint or material', but he bailed out because he was so certain his custom unit would be the game-breaker as to be unable to win the game at all? Or was that unclear as well?

The way this went, don't you think it turned out to be a waste of my time as well?

**Peregrine**

Lord Xcapobl wrote:
Questions for Peregrine, perhaps you missed me writing about how he never even gave me the chance to explain my condition?

I didn't, because no such thing happened. You had plenty of opportunities to say "I get to play your army" even after he said "yes" before you could finish the first time. For example, you could have replied to the initial "yes" with "even though I get to play your army?" since you know that this is likely to be a controversial condition.

The way this went, don't you think it turned out to be a waste of my time as well?

Apparently not, because it's pretty clear that you went into this situation knowing that the unit was unbalanced and looking to make a "lol, gotcha!" moment out of it. You got what you wanted even if you didn't play the game.

**Lord Xcapobl**

I do think you're right. My appologies.
I likely could or should have interrupted him while chatting on about his custom unit. During his set-up. During mine. To the extent that I recall all manner of (non-secretive) stats about that unit. Stuff I heard a couple of times. And again. I see, now, that I didn't indicate this, specifically, indeed. Again, I humbly appologise.

I would guess you would do the very thing you advocate, interrupt and gauge reaction.

And for me, it was a waste of time, all ten minutes of it. Unless you were the other player, or at least you were there, it is my opinion you don't have enough knowledge about me to simply state it wasn't a waste of my time.
I didn't get what I wanted from that. Again, it is my opinion you asume too much knowledge of me, unless you were he, or you were at least there, and for some reason were biased.

I did get a couple of other great games in that day. With people who agreed with me about the god-mode changes to something with a point value set lower than even a regular Space Marine Assault Squad with jump packs at its base. People who agreed with me about the other player not wanting to halt his enthousiasm about his army, and his custom elite assault unit in particular, to listen to any conditions and simply agreeing blindly. People I still play the game with, even to the extent where we tweak units and rules in a mutually agreeable manner (such as allowing a single Heavy Bolter in a unit of Plague Marines because, well, iconic artwork, or to play test Chaos Terminators with the option to take close combat attachments to their ranged weapons, as the models clearly do have them).

**Crazyterran**

Yes to custom/converted models, as long as it's clear what they are, but no to custom rules.

I'm sorry, but I am sure there is a special character or HQ with a relic that is similar enough to your character that you can just use the normal rules.

Then again, I suppose GW did just get finished making Cawl and Celestine in their current incarnations, so maybe the home brew might not be too bad.

**icn1982**

Lord Xcapobl wrote:
I have seen some cheap whining and even a little agressive behaviour from people who A; made actually nice models, and B; wrote some new rules for them, instead of using some existing unit, at the time their opponents chose not to allow them to use their masterpieces. Sometimes this was even very surprising, as the people involved knew eachother well.

I had similar experiences over the years I have been playing WH40K. One time, I met a player who was very adamant about his new creation, practically needing to play it. I would allow his creation on one simple condition. He agreed before I could even explain said condition. So, basically, we set up, and after determining everything else, I simply reminded him of the deal. I told him to switch sides. Me playing his army, him playing mine. I then got a rather emotional rant about how my army would never stand a chance against his and the deal being unfair. I asked why it would be unfair, his custom models and rules were mentioned. I reminded him about the agreement on the extra condition, which turned out to be him playing against his own custom unit. That was his que to pack and leave, where some name-calling was aimed at me. Other people present were likely as surprised as me, or even more so as they wouldn't have allowed that custom unit in the first place.

Despite such, I still have the tendency to be somewhat open about it. If I know the player well, I might just sit down and discuss his or her new unit or rules a bit, offer to play two games to test it, with the first being a game with the new unit/rules under my control. The WH40K galaxy is too big a place to simply state "that couldn't exist". I am more reserved towards strangers, though. You just never know when a custom model and its custom rules sheet comes flying your way when you refuse to play against it, or offer to play it against their creator just to test it.

I would jump at your condition - I'm a fluff bunny so if I were to add additional rules for my units, it would be because it made sense fluff wise, not because it made any tactical sense (My IG army is made up of lots of individual gangs, many of whom were vicious rivals before entering the guard) - I could easily see fights breaking out between bitter rivals, now, I assume in my army all this happens off the battlefield as the presence of a common enemy overrides the need to get even. But if artillery falls short when I fire, I wouldn't be certain that it was accidental.

**B Stores**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
My answer can be summed up in my signature...

This is beautiful

Thank-you, I loved the old design rules, I'm totally going to be playing around with this