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Yep, pulled them out my ass. But i dont think Abby had more then 100000 marines, hell he may have had 500 million cultists.

Still attacking a well prepared and fortified position is extremely costly to the attacker. The Black Legion rolled over the cadians and their marine buddies with minimal losses in comparion. In an imperial centric book, you dont see those battles, just a line or two at best

If someone can come up with more accurate numbers it would be awesome.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
One Necron in particular is very good at time travel. Orikan the Diviner. It tends to lead to unexpected problems though. Plus he can see the future.

He's also only ever used it to serve his own purposes (he's got his own agenda), so I'd be amazed if he came into play in this story.

Casti wrote:
Yep, pulled them out my ass. But i dont think Abby had more then 100000 marines, hell he may have had 500 million cultists.

Still attacking a well prepared and fortified position is extremely costly to the attacker. The Black Legion rolled over the cadians and their marine buddies with minimal losses in comparion. In an imperial centric book, you dont see those battles, just a line or two at best

If someone can come up with more accurate numbers it would be awesome.

So he could equally have 3 millions SM and about ten billion cultists and it could have been an extremely costly battle. I guess it depends on the flavor of koll aid you drink

Well i believe i am in the ball park (with the chaos marines) with my estimations. 3 million astartes would conquer the galaxy. But if your kool aid tells you thats what it is, more power to you

 Bobthehero wrote:
What's the source of the Chaos numbers? It sounds like you came up with them

He's saying "if we say there was..." so it's conjecture.

Casti wrote:
Well i believe i am in the ball park (with the chaos marines) with my estimations. 3 million astartes would conquer the galaxy.

Took about 100 million if I remember well, along with all the support of the Imperial Army

The largest legions at the height of the great crusade (just before the heresy began) stood around 200-250 thousand, Ultramarines, Wordbearers and Iron Warriors iirc. Thats the highest 3 of 18 legions.

Casti wrote:
The largest legions at the height of the great crusade (just before the heresy began) stood around 200-250 thousand, Ultramarines, Wordbearers and Iron Warriors iirc. Thats the highest 3 of 18 legions.

Word Bearers were at 200k and Ultramarines at 250k, and they were the two largest, as you say. The other large legions were around 160k (IW was 180k ish, right?), with many lower than that (some significantly so, like Raven Guard, Salamanders and Thousand Sons). The Alpha Legion's numbers were completely unknown, but they were unlikely to be significantly more numerous than the Ultramarines.

Uh, I guess I was wrong

Just going to point this out:
Cadia didn't have impressive fortifications. It had two barely-standing fortresses, a crashed ship, and improvised trenches and tunnels. It's hard The Fang.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Just going to point this out:
Cadia didn't have impressive fortifications. It had two barely-standing fortresses, a crashed ship, and improvised trenches and tunnels. It's hard The Fang.

So what happened to the impressive fortifications?

gungo wrote:
To be fair if you don't really care about mutations it's likely quicker and easier to make a chaos marine using thier geneseed than making an imperial marine. I have a feeling chaos standards are a lot less taxing than imperial standards.

Yeah I reckon Chaos can make Marines quicker than the IoM can. Fabulous Bill is the leading authority on human genetic engineering, and it's not as if Chaos has qualms about completely depleting a planet to turn them into Marines.

If Cadia was 850 million. Lets say 7/8 people died. That leaves a little over 1 million captives to implant with however much geneseed is recoverable from the fallen loyalist (and chaotic) Astartes.

Perhaps that was a motivation for attacking Cadia. He knew it would draw in marine chapters from all over. Kill them all, harvest their geneseed and double the numbers of the Black Legion...

Casti wrote:
Well i believe i am in the ball park (with the chaos marines) with my estimations. 3 million astartes would conquer the galaxy. But if your kool aid tells you thats what it is, more power to you

The issue is one of GW's appreciation for numbers. Realistically, 3 million Astartes would conquer jack sh*t in a galactic-scale war. Drop in the ocean.

However, because it's a lot more compelling to write about lower-scale conflicts where heroes might actually be able to make a difference, you get 1000-strong Marine chapters conquering worlds. Realistically, 1000 Marines wouldn't be able to conquer and hold a continent through sheer logistics. They can't be everywhere all the time, and 1000 people spreads out very, very thinly indeed.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Casti wrote:
The largest legions at the height of the great crusade (just before the heresy began) stood around 200-250 thousand, Ultramarines, Wordbearers and Iron Warriors iirc. Thats the highest 3 of 18 legions.

Word Bearers were at 200k and Ultramarines at 250k, and they were the two largest, as you say. The other large legions were around 160k (IW was 180k ish, right?), with many lower than that (some significantly so, like Raven Guard, Salamanders and Thousand Sons). The Alpha Legion's numbers were completely unknown, but they were unlikely to be significantly more numerous than the Ultramarines.

The Sons of Horus were less than 200k...10,000 years ago. That's a hell of a long time to build your numbers up from captured geneseed, loyalists turning traitor and recruits from other legions.

pm713 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Just going to point this out:
Cadia didn't have impressive fortifications. It had two barely-standing fortresses, a crashed ship, and improvised trenches and tunnels. It's hard The Fang.

So what happened to the impressive fortifications?

Destroyed in Round 1. It says at the start this isn't "round 1", the book is Round 2: Abaddon already attacked the planet and after much, much MUCH strife, Cadia managed to repel him. Creed didn't think it was over because there has been no sign of Abaddon so far. He was right: The first attack that weakened Cadia so much was only the Vanguard.

And yes Abaddon knows he could have just blown the planet to smithereens and moved on, he even wonders "mid-game" if he screwed up like Horus did, all because of the same reason: pride.

On the subject of replacing losses....

A lot of that, rather unhelpfully, depends.

Sure, Fabius Bile seems capable of mass-conversion. Except, one imagines he'd want paying after some fashion. As with any would-be Astartes, you then have natural attrition as some reject the implants or go all monstrous. One would argue that given their much higher than average levels of corruption, the Chaos forces would find that a significant factor.

But, even if Fabius Bile is the sole answer (and he may not be....you need viable Geneseed after all, and the Black Legion appears to have left plenty of that behind on Cadia), having Astartes is simply not enough.

You need to train, arm and outfit them to get the most out of them.

So let's say that Fabius can conceivably, and geneseed stocks allowing, produce a thousand Astartes at once (and at an accelerated rate. Not only does he seem less caring as the end result, he's not bogged down in the same mysticism as Loyalists). Where does their armour come from? The Bolters? When is the required training done, if at all?

Indeed, I'd wager that mass production isn't really in Abaddon's favour - it's a lot of resources to expend just to get ultimately inferior, and quite possibly unstable equivalents. Far better to just send in the millions of Cultists to tie up the guns, then do surgical strikes to take the head of the enemy.

So it all comes down to feasible supply and demand. Here, the Imperium arguably has the upper hand. They have well established stockpiles and supply chains. The Forgeworlds are constantly churning out war materiel, and don't need paying in the traditional sense. Dark Mechanicus? Got to bribe them, and hope they don't renege and give your goodies to a higher bidder.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

So let's say that Fabius can conceivably, and geneseed stocks allowing, produce a thousand Astartes at once (and at an accelerated rate. Not only does he seem less caring as the end result, he's not bogged down in the same mysticism as Loyalists). Where does their armour come from? The Bolters? When is the required training done, if at all?

Are there not a fair few background references to daemonforge worls in the EoT?

I event remember a story from 'into the malestrom'? from years ago that spoke of this thing in the EoT just spewing out guns int space forever.

Indeed, but unlike The Imperium, you have to deal with those Daemon Forgeworlds, and whatever they're asking, the price won't be cheap.

So whilst new equipment is available, I very much question the practicality of obtaining on a large scale.

I know I should just go read the OP, but does Abaddon just abandon Cadia after he's invaded? Seems like there'd be ample supplied of geneseed and salvageable equipment down on the surface to re-stock on the fly.

Erm....I don't think you'd want to go bin-diving on Cadia right now.

Essentially, it's cracked in half, mostly covered in red-hot-liquid-mag-ma, and well on it's way to being a Daemon World....

So the red-hot-liquid-mag-ma will have ruined much of what was left anyway, and any remainder is at real risk of being corrupted beyond use (though exactly how Chaos guys, let alone Fabius Bile would define corrupted beyond use is anyone's guess!)

Ah I see. Gonna have to go raiding on a couple of undefended worlds near Cadia then

Would have made much more sense for him to be collecting geneseed as he goes. It's what I'd do if I was a Chaos Lord. Take the Tyranid approach to building numbers and go harvest some loyalists...

Does anyone know when Chaos tends to reap the geneseed?

Army list wise, they don't seem to take the necessary tools with them, as opposed to Loyalist, who would likely have an Apothecary on hand, if not actually on the field?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Does anyone know when Chaos tends to reap the geneseed?

Army list wise, they don't seem to take the necessary tools with them, as opposed to Loyalist, who would likely have an Apothecary on hand, if not actually on the field?

"Fabius Bile: Primogenitor" book offers quite an interesting insight about this: There are almost no Apothecaries in the Chaos side because being one requires actual hard-work, study, skill and focus, all qualities that are increasingly rare in the Chaos side because the vast majority threw self-restraint out of the window and act on base impulses alone.

Most Apothecaries seem to be hired to perform specific jobs and that's it, they move on, they aren't like their Loyalist brothers.

Oh, and the book is in M34, so if they were that rare back then, I can't even imagine "now".

Hmmm, see it's things like that that make me question how well thought out this sort of stuff is. If apothecaries are so rare, how can they ever hope to wage war on a galactic scale? They'd be wiped out with hilarious ease by the unending pink tide of the Guard.

Seems to me that they're going for the 'they're all insaaaane' school of villainy, rather than making them a genuine, intelligent, organised credible threat.

Contrast that to how it's portrayed with the World Eaters during the Heresy. Due to their combat doctrine resulting in heavy casualties, the World Eaters had a large number of top-class Apothecaries to ensure that their numbers remained up to strength.

Well thought out. Makes them seem in the least bit intelligent. Makes them more of a threat.

Reckon I'll be picking up a copy of that.

Love a bit of Fabulous Billy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Hmmm, see it's things like that that make me question how well thought out this sort of stuff is. If apothecaries are so rare, how can they ever hope to wage war on a galactic scale? They'd be wiped out with hilarious ease by the unending pink tide of the Guard.

Seems to me that they're going for the 'they're all insaaaane' school of villainy, rather than making them a genuine, intelligent, organised credible threat.

Contrast that to how it's portrayed with the World Eaters during the Heresy. Due to their combat doctrine resulting in heavy casualties, the World Eaters had a large number of top-class Apothecaries to ensure that their numbers remained up to strength.

Well thought out. Makes them seem in the least bit intelligent. Makes them more of a threat.

Then the World Eaters went completely beyond ape-poop bonkers mental. I'm talking the full hatstand, both by Khorne's growing influence on them, and their internal Deely Boppers, which if memory serves, were ultimately forced on the entire Legion, so one would assume that includes the Apothecaries.

Why? Because Chaos is insanity. Look at their history since Horus' failure. The Legions literally tore themselves apart, devolving into Warbands. If not Daemonhood, Abaddon certainly deserves all the 'Mr Cat-Herder Of The Year' awards and titles since M31!

Haha! That should definitely be Abaddon's title

Yeah I get the World Eaters going full-Angron so they'd probably make poor students. They'd be the ones at the back of the class setting fire to the test and trying to hit the marine next to them with the table-leg they've just ripped off.

The issue really is one of differing visions for what Chaos/CSM are.

For me, I really find the 'Chaos is all maaaaad' trope pretty unimaginative. Not much you can do with that really. They're evil because they're evil.

However, if you say that they turned to the Chaos Gods out of desperation, it's got a lot more legs.

Suddenly, CSM aren't barmy chaos-worshipping lunatics running around with their pants on their heads revving their chainswords. They're intelligent, nuanced villains who have struck a terrible Faustian bargain with eldritch creatures to win the Long War they've been fighting for 10,000 years.

In order to have survived as a major power for 10,000 years (nearly twice as long as present-day written history) they would have to be at least a little bit organised.

If they've pretty much run out of Apothecaries by M34 then the Imperium's already won. Literally all it has to do is wait. It makes CSM into a non-threat.

Plus, even if they are all insane, equating 'insane' with 'stupid' is probably a mistake that many Imperial Generals have come to regret very swiftly indeed...

Believe it or not, one of the top Fabius' student and AWESOME character is a World Eater. I recommend that book because it shows a chaos side that isn't just raving madness, but a calm and collected and intellectual "villain". I was actually rooting for the big F for a long while. His humour is impeccable too (stealing this from a thread in bolter & chainsword)



Also, Chaos can create new troops, it just isn't the honoured process of the loyalist. There's a cool short story where the Alpha Legion destroys an entire chapter and steals their entire gene-seed stock. The same also happened in a particular Dark Angels fortress. Heck, Red Tithe, they mention how there are some very new Night Lords amongst their ranks AND they in the planet to collect humans to turn into Night Lords.

Sounds right up my street then anything that makes chaos more than just a bunch of raving lunatics is good by me

Also, that description of the Night Lords has given me a cool idea for a Night Lords warband with a load of loyal cultists in the style of WFB Vampire Counts

Oohhh, you really have to read Red Tithe, because they do have a cultist army with them, the "Black Hands". They perform the tasks they can't be bothered to do too

 skoffs wrote:

He's also only ever used it to serve his own purposes (he's got his own agenda), so I'd be amazed if he came into play in this story.

True but it's still presumably non-Warp time travel. Plus if Chaos is being put into the threat to end all threats category Orikan could intervene. That said the Warp tends to baffle his predictions so he may not be of that great a use.

TheDraconicLord wrote:And yes Abaddon knows he could have just blown the planet to smithereens and moved on, he even wonders "mid-game" if he screwed up like Horus did, all because of the same reason: pride.

He was seemingly counting on the Blackstone Fortress to destroy the planet in any case though and with the defences in place it wouldn't have worked.


It's worth noting that if Abaddon starts creating his Crimson Path from the Eye of Terror then attrition swings in his favour. No faction would be able to reclaim those worlds so he has a relatively safe haven to strike from as well as being able to summon Daemonic forces further into the Imperium.

Has Abaddon successfully surpassed Horus?

LightKing wrote:
Has Abaddon successfully surpassed Horus?

only if he finishes big E off.

or gets half of the IoM to turn traitor.